You can get quotes on a wall
hanging ‘Combi-Boiler’ that would heat your home and domestic hot water (DHW).
This would free up some space in your mechanical room.

I would suggest getting the quotes,
doing a heat loss calculation and generally educating yourself but if you haven’t
been having any problems and you feel your energy bills are reasonable I wouldn’t
change anything so fast. It will be expensive!

What type of rads do you
have?

IMPO

SR

It's a walk-out. The lower level has cast iron radiators, the upstairs has the heat in ceiling. 1/2" copper on 4" centers - absolutely great heating. Ceiling is about 1 1/2" inches thick!

My gas bills are $150 a month - I think it's reasonable for the size of the home, and we keep it at 72 degrees.

I will stick with a separate water heater.

I don't want to change something that's not broke.

Just doing a little research to see what's out there if I need to do something in the future.

I have separate A/C - insulated duct in attic, with grills in the ceiling.

If it were mine, I'd replace it now if you can afford to. You'll get a better price when the sun is shining and you don't need it immediately as when the snow is falling in Minnesota and you're impatient for a truck to arrive. That boiler has given good service for a long time and has earned its retirement.

As for gaining space in the room where located, that's not often something anyone can do much with.

I'd recommend a non-condensing boiler because it is going to be the lowest cost and most reliable option. I'm not familiar with Janitrol, but based on the year I'm guessing you are running around a 60% thermal eff system that may even be a coal fired boiler that was converted to natural. A new unit would be 80%+ so you could cut down the input significantly. If you are venting into a chimney then you should really have it relined at that point as well.

If you want to really spend some big money to upgrade, then you could go to a condensing system. It would require new venting, condensate drain lines, maybe a condensate pump, and probably whole lot of plumbing. Based on how cheap your gas bill is and desire to stay simple, I really don't think it would be wise unless you wanted something just for the sake of having it. If you do go this route then I'd advise to say away from any boilers water tube style heat exchangers (giannoni style heat exchangers). Stick with the newer fire tube designs. They are much higher quality by design and have dramatically lower water side pressure drop.

If you go condensing also make sure you add a boiler buddy tank. A boiler buddy will give you significant added thermal mass that will cut down short cycling and is really necessary for antique heating systems using cast iron radiators.

Make sure you have your whole heating system flushed during installation to remove all the old sediment from those radiators. Take the opportunity to inspect (or add) all the little components that can wear out too, expansion tank/backflow preventer/p-gagues/etc. They are low cost, but once they start leaking they require draining the system again unless you add isolation valves while you are working on the system.

"My gas bills are $150 a month - I think it's reasonable for the size of the home, and we keep it at 72 degrees."

Does this mean your annual gas bill is $1800? That is a lot of gas. A new gas boiler could cut your heating costs in half.

If you are looking for simple, then I don't think a wall hung combi-boiler is the best choice. Those types of units are great when space is tight. I assume once you remove your 175K BTU 65 year old boiler that space will not be a problem.

I am also of the opinion having a separate conventional hot water heater is as simple as it gets.

I recommend you buy the most efficient gas fired boiler you can afford. The winter design temperature in most of the state is -15F. That is cold! I am not a boiler expert, but I think your house would be a good candidate for a condensing boiler. It will be more expensive but you have the potential for a reasonable return on investment given the size your house and climate.

Thanks for the advice guys. I want to stay simple. Not going to replace the boiler right now - it's working - just cleaned it last year - looks good. I splurged on a new thermocouple :)

Anyone have some links to some non-condensing boilers - just want to look at them.

I don't think $1800 is a lot of money for gas - it heats my home, hot water, cooking, and I have a 2 1/2 car heated garage (at 55 degrees). I'm not looking to save money on fuel. If I have to get a new boiler in the future, it will use the existing flue, it won't be condensing. I don't look at it as an investment.

I'm 67, in good health, and we plan to stay in this house as long as possible. I have the entire home maintained to the 'T' (I'm a DIY engineer) - but I realize the boiler may be the weak link.

Thanks again for all your profession opinions!

re: mmmm12

Very interesting!

Thanks for sharing.

'If it ain't broke...'

'Careful what you wish for; you just might get it!'

SR

There are less brands of non-condensing boilers each year, and right now I hardly see any difference between them. Since you'd probably need a new unit between 125kbtu to 174kbtu input the brands Weil-McClain, Thermoflo, Crown, Burnham, Utica, New Yorker, Peerless, Dunkirk, and Laars all make units in that range. Some may just be branding other companies at this point though.

You can always stay with the boiler you have if it is working fine, but I'd just make sure that certain parts, mostly the gas valve, are still available if they need to be replaced. Also, you can get your system in a position to make replacement easy now that it is getting warm. This means adding isolation valves, system fills and drains, AAVs, or flanges where appropriate so that when the time comes the changeover will be a job that takes hours instead of days.

You are lucky for a retrofit situation, I think. Assuming that radiant in ceiling is similar to radiant in floor, your emitters can both use relatively low temp water compared to aluminum tube convectors and hydro coils. This will work well with condensing boilers, but if you don't want to go that route.... Do yourself a favor and do a heat loss calculation for your home. The best way may be by using your gas usage in the coldest weather and heating degree day information from a close-by weather station.

It can be hard to match a boiler to a home cut up into many zones. (What do your zones cover?) These days sometimes hydronic retrofit designers recombine zones going back to the future in order to avoid short cycling.

Even modulating boilers can be difficult to throttle back far enough when big enough to run the whole system. Consider one of the HTP Versa boiler options. They have thermal mass that cape dude suggests you might need without the need for an added tank. You get DHW out of the same package and very efficient. If you could make it on 76,000 BTU, the Westinghouse WGR0 series water heater option is a good one for DIY boiler retrofit. They are rebadged HTP Phoenix Light Duty DHW heaters. They modulate 3:1 rather than 5:1 like the Versas. Price is bargain. I think that they are drop in replacements for old boilers removing the need for repiping and such. You will need a new plastic exhaust pipe.

Surf on over to heatinghelp.com and Terrylove.com for some good boiler discussions.

@capedude: Thanks for the names - I'll google them. As long as it doesn't leak - I'm going to keep it. Has a simple 24v Honeywell 2 wire gas valve. That's the only component.

About 8 years ago I replaced the four big red B&G pumps, flanged, with full port shut off valves. Also replaced the four Honeywell RA-xxx relays. Added a fill pressure regulator and an anti-siphon device.

This has only gone out once in 22 years - some dirt from the flue fell on the pilot.

@ionized: It can be hard to match a boiler to a home cut up into many zones. (What do your zones cover?) Four zones - controlled by T87F's and a relay to a B&G circulator on the return pipe.

#1. Lower level of home 1,800 sq/ft. Upper level 1,800 sq/ft: #2. Kitchen / foyer. #3. Very large LR/DR, #4. 2 Bedrooms / Hall / Bath.

I don't detect the boiler 'cycling'. On the coldest day (-20) the downstairs CI radiators are hot - but would not burn you. I guess you would call this 'low temp' ??

Thanks for your thoughts.

Additional thoughts: This home was built in 1950 by an architect and an Italian stone mason. It is an expensively built home. For the boiler there were custom made manifolds (welded pipes) for the supply and returns from the zones. This is not an easy repipe - the new boiler should connect to the current manifolds.

I was considering, before I'm 70 (I'm 67 soon), I'd find an installer (that's not a hammer mechanic) who will work with me to 'gently' install a new boiler.

@ionized_gw The versa flame or Pioneer (the one without the DHW module) is a good idea in theory, but I would recommend against them. You can read the reviews and make your judgement, but fundamentally their product doesn't have an ASME H stamp. Their products aren't engineered to the standard of quality qualify for one, and the company itself isn't qualified to the fabrication process quality to apply one.

Just some more thoughts on the lessons learned part. We had a Honeywell AQ25044B control board and Honeywell AQ25744B expansion board installed. When we were having bids done everyone declared our old wiring a mess and told us about these fancy new control boards that would clean up our mess, be easier to work with and look great.

In thinking about our boiler not running in the morning but yet not throwing any error codes I'm wondering if the problem isn't the control board? The power cycling is similar to the problem when early computers would just lock up and you had to power cycle them.

With our old set up the boiler just ran. I miss the reliability and trouble free operation.

In terms of lessons learned on installers we went with the Costco plumbing company based on the hydronics knowledge of the sales guy which seemed to be quite good. Unfortunately the actual installers really didn't know hydronics, basic plumbing skills or how to wire the control board. In looking for your installer try to use one with a long history of boiler installs. My brother had the non-induced draft version of the same boiler I bought and has had no trouble however he had the same company that installed his original 1908 boiler put in this one and it was either the grandson or great grandson of the original guy who put it in. He lives in a very old city so had this great expertise available to him.

Those old boilers really do last a long time and as long as yours is still going (ours was rusting out, likely do to the oxygen permeable pex for our floors) I suggest keeping it going.

@mmmm12: This is a big .pfd - but it has lots of Honeywell info. You may have to become your own expert.

Honeywell tech info

Capedude, can you direct me to an explanation of what the ASME H-stamp means, in layman's terms? Of particular interest is what it might mean to a new type of boiler that may not have existed when the requirements of the certification was drawn up and accepted.

geoffrey, Thanks! I had to rewire it correctly every time the installation team left. They were very sloppy or unknowledgeable. If I had left it to them I'd still have random things happening at every call for heat. Not to mention they didn't tighten down any of the screws before leaving, had not twisted together a bunch of wires in wirenuts (resulting in random non-connectivity), not hooked up the bb bus wires, jumpered things together that shouldn't be. Had redundant wires running. Had hooked the Aux ports up to the boiler pump and the boiler ports up to the group pump, not set any of the dip switches correctly etc.

@ionized_gw Unfortunately I don't think there is anything that explains ASME H-Stamp code specifically in laymen's terms. It is a highly technical standard for pressure vessel design. You could read the wiki on ASME PV code in general:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASME_Boiler_and_Pressure_Vessel_Code_(BPVC)

The standard has been around 100 years to regulate pressure vessels. A new type of boiler wouldn't matter because you can petition the standards body directly for a specific allowance and they will work to make that allowance part of the standard as soon as they can because it is updated every few years.

If a product is a boiler then it is required to carry an H-Stamp with the exception of a few states and municipalities that allow building owners to exercise their discretion. The pioneer gets around this because it isn't actually a boiler. It is certified to the safety standard ANSI Z21.10.3, the standard for water heaters. If it were a boiler, then it would be certified to ANSI Z21.13.

What it means to the average person is that they are getting a "boiler" that is engineered and built to a much lower standard on anything that contains pressure (heat exchanger and tank). This means thinner metal, weaker joints, lower factory of safety, lower test pressures, no material traceability, and low-skilled fabrication workers.

Capedude, you have started down the path that would be called a layman's explanation.

My knowledge of the DHW and boiler standards is obviously limited. That said, I deal with various types of industrial standards now and then and I have learned to understand how they work.

My read is that the boiler standards are fit to combination steam-hot water boilers. The water heater standards are more restricted to appliances that make hot water. Many, if not most, jurisdictions allow the installation of water heaters (Z21.10.3) to power hydronic heat. That means that many officials have decided that they area safe for that use. It boils (he he) down to the question of which set of standards is a better match to an hydronic (hot water) heating system? Is it a set of standards for appliances that make hot water on the one hand, or on the other hand, a set of standards for appliances that can make hot water or steam.

If code-compliant, the Westinghouse or HTP Pioneer option makes for an inexpensive way to graft a very efficient boiler into an archaic system without the need to install additional piping (primary-secondary) for boiler protection. You have a buffer built in eliminating the need for a separate buffer tank to prevent short cycling in the case of small zones. The design of the heat exchangers in these water heaters is unique. it looks like they use the inherent stratification of how water in the tank to set up a counter-current exchanger.

If you don't like the water heater aspect, a Versa boiler with Z21.13 can be installed if it is not too big and you can stand the additional coin. The physics of the HX are the same as with the water heater. Reports I have seen indicate that even though they may cost more than some other efficient boilers, the amount of money that you can save in repiping (buffer tank) and controls more than compensates for it.

ionized_gw: It looks like as times have progressed, it's been decided that hydronic heating 'devices' can be of several flavors. As everything else, things get cheaper and cheaper. They aren't going to get the ASTM H cause they aren't even made to be welded / tested in that manner. So these appliances are safe - but they sure aren't going to last 65 years like my boiler.

As with many things, there are way to many options in heating and cooling for most consumers to make sense of. Fortunately, it looks like you are in a pretty good position to so a reasonable amount of research and come up with a good option for your home. The advice of experience is a good thing, however, so I encourage you to to to the two web sites that I posted for some good advice.