Sun Gold is an F1 hybrid so all seeds for it will be "organic" in that they are bred naturally and not treated in any way.

Interesting!

The packaging for the Sungold CT seeds I bought from Botanical Interests do not state that they are organic...I was bummed about that because everything else I'm growing is from organic seed and I only use organic fertilizers.

Are you implying that the seeds I bought just haven't been certified as organic? So the plants they were bred from were organic? I don't understand!

Thank you!

Thank you so much! :)

Is it possible to save Sungold seeds, even though it's a hybrid?

https://www.botanicalinterests.com/products/view/0185/

You can if you wish and others have but it will not breed true. From what I have read it appears to be larger, darker in color with some hints of red coloring and not as sweet. Whether you like what it produces is a matter of personal taste.

Dave

If the sweetness is threatened then I will not save the seeds. I love Sungolds because of how sweet they are!

thanks for the info!

Organic seeds are available and the seed supplier should specify that they are if you want to grow Certified Organic plants. F1 or hybrid status is irrelevant. Dave is only correct in one respect- that you likely cannot tell that distinction by just looking at the seeds. However, in most cases, the seed packets should indicate whether Thiram or other GMRO non-approved fungicide was used to treat seeds. Any plant grower should indicate whether their plants meet "Organic" criteria but are not obligated under current laws. If plants are labeled as "Organic" then not only should seeds be such, but potting media and any applied sprays or fertilizers (all of which are not obvious) should be OMRI approved.

"Dave is only correct in one respect- that you likely cannot tell that
distinction by just looking at the seeds. However, in most cases, the
seed packets should indicate whether Thiram or other GMRO non-approved
fungicide was used to treat seeds."

Sorry to disagree Barrie but any treated seed is obvious and easily seen because of the color change, not to mention the required package labeling. And when manual hybridization of multiple parentage is involved, as with Sun Gold, then none of the ORMI criteria apply.

As to the rest, you are indicating what perhaps should be the case but is in fact not the case. Enforcement of all the OMRI guidelines is an honor-based system, not a legal enforcement system when it comes to seed production. And to date there is no scientific evidence that non-organic grown plants produce seeds that are different in any way from seeds produced by organically grown plants.

I was a certified organic grower for more than 20 years until all the mis-leading hype associated with the movement became more than I, and many other growers, cared to deal with. I still garden organically but try to focus on the truths of the movement not the hype of it that so many vendors capitalize on. And a seed is a seed is a seed. Especially when it is an F1 hybrid seed.

Dave

To me , selling seeds as "organic" is just a gimmick.

When you plant a heirloom tomato seed, does it matter if it was collected from a plant grown organically or not ? You are not eating them. The seeds only carry the genetic blue print , with some nutrients for the embryo

Sey

Thanks guys!

"...does it matter if it was collected from a plant grown organically or not ? "

I do agree with Dave and Sey here about the practical aspects of growing out a seed not produced through 'organic' methods. The resulting plant will, for all intents and purposes, be basically as 'organic' as the grower desires (gosh, they really have complicated that term, haven't they?)

However, I do feel it beneficial to add that to some people, in the sense that they want to support those who employ organic methods (whatever that means these days), it most certainly matters. Such consumers truly appreciate knowing the method used to produce seeds. That said, in their desire to sell their product, some companies do take such labeling to the extremes of hyperbole.

The Jet Star F1 hybrid seeds I got from Harris are treated. So F1 hybrid seeds can definitely not be organic and can be treated with fungicides. Whether if grown the fruit can be sold as organic idk that is another story.

They are clearly labelled and clearly visible as treated.

I agree it is all very gimmicky anyway to sell organic seeds. It is a bit obsessive to insist on organic seed. Unless you are eating sprouts or something. But you may not want treated seed which has a coating of chemicals on the seed.

That's good to know Peter. I didn't know Harris had gone to treating tomato seeds with fungicides. I'll have to dig around and see if more vendors are doing it now as it is very unusual. I assume they also offer the same seed untreated?

But you are right that the blue or orange or purple color makes it obvious.

Dave

Yes it is very obvious. I do not think they offer it untreated: https://www.harrisseeds.com/storefront/p-147-tomato-jet-star-f1.aspx

I was not happy the seeds were noted as origin China, I googled it and someone else posted that the owner claimed all hybrid tomatoes come from China. I am highly skeptical and have not seen any such note on any other hybrid seeds I have purchased.

I would recommend buying Sungold from Johnny's.

I have a hard time believing seeds grown from organically grown plants vs. plants grown with artificial fertilizers are exactly the same genetically.

I'm not a chemist or biologist. However, I remember in my chemistry class the teacher explained that certain artificial chemicals change DNA.

What's the truth? I'm assuming there is no way to prove either is better currently?

It might be obsessive to grow with organic seeds exclusively but it makes me feel happy.... Just like anything else in this world worth obsessing about.

Peter, can you please tell me why you recommend to buy from Jonny's?

I have already bought Sungold seeds from Botanical Interests and Renee's Garden. Please tell me these seeds aren't from China!!! Haha

Because they have a great reputation and I have bought Sungold seeds from them (among plenty of other things) and the plants did excellent. I haven't used Botanical Interests and Renee's Garden before. A quick Google reveals both have mostly good reviews.

If my Sungolds don't turn out well I will be depressed and order from Johnnys next season!

Thanks!

I'm sure they'll be fine. :)

To further explain what many seed companies, including Harris, are doing the seed labeling is well defined as "Treated" or "Untreated". In other instances the organic seed is also well defined, such as in the new Pozzano tomato variety where Harris heading states: "Pozzano F1 Organic". It can't be any more clear than that although Harris also has a price header statement: "All seed is treated unless otherwise noted".

Companies may use other terms to identify organic seed. Johnny's, for example uses the blue "OG" symbol next to any variety whose seed is available as Organic. I typically don't request "OG" seed since I'm not growing organic and those seed are slightly more expensive. The seed treatments are not visible in most cases with Johnny's and vary with other companies, depending on the seed producers. Rupp, where I purchase most of my seeds, as a further example buys in seed from Syngenta, Sakata, Seminis, DeRuiter and others and the seed treatment and appearance will vary. Many tomato seeds now days are offered as pelleted and those pellets are pale white only, at least from dozens of varieties I've seen.

I'm not arguing a case for purchasing organic seed or not but to clarify that organic has no relation to seed being hybrid or OP. In another post to this forum one so-called "Organic" grower insisted it was OK for him to grow in ProMix-BX. I 've sold a lot of my produce to "Organic suppliers" so it is definitely an integrity issue.

"I have a hard time believing seeds grown from organically grown plants
vs. plants grown with artificial fertilizers are exactly the same
genetically."

Why? Genes are genes. DNA can change all the times, and those changes hardly depend on "artificial chemicals" (as opposed to "natural chemicals"?) Such changed DNA will almost certainly not be biologically functional. You can believe whatever you want, but those are the facts. You're saying that humans who consume fast food bear children who are biologically different than those who don't?

Tomatozesty, please don't take this as any sort of recrimination, I do greatly respect your principles in this matter. I'm not too far afield from the beliefs you've expressed. I would like to say though, that synthetic fertilizers, for the most part (there might be a brand that mixes fertilizers with other chemicals,) are - chemically speaking - identical with their organic counterparts... Urea.

There really is no reason to believe that these chemicals, being molecularity equivalent to their organically-derived counterparts, would affect plant DNA.

However... that said, I personally do not use 'cides. Why? Because 'cides are different. I too am no expert, but I do have an interest in my own health, and the health of the environment around me. Certain 'cides do affect DNA. Do they mutate it? Meh... I don't know for sure, but I know that they can damage both plant and animal DNA... http://reeis.usda.gov/web/crisprojectpages/0196383-pesticide-impact-on-plant-dna.html

So, rather than do research on each particular product, and then continually following up on the latest findings (because no matter how much we convince ourselves we know something for sure, there's always more to learn), I've chosen a to exclude most chemicals from my garden. I have though, garnered a whole lot of synthetic fertilizers (a lot for me, someone else, not as finicky, could probably run through them in a season.) Because of their chemical equivalency, I do - extremely sparingly - use them in the garden. I won't buy them because I have no desire to support the companies in that industry more than life in this country already indentures, but I also won't see them go to waste. 'Cides though, I stay away from entirely. I won't even use Bt, although I know that particular choice is more or less unreasonable lol.

Edit: When I buy seeds, I buy regular seeds. I don't purposefully buy organic. I only spend the extra few cents on organic when the regular seeds aren't available. Should I buy the organic? I don't know... if I ever get financially stable, perhaps I will. I only order from one seed source a year to save on shipping, and yes, most years it's Johnny's. They've been great for me, are 'employee-owned' (which I wholeheartedly support) and seriously stand by their products. That is not to say that many other companies are not just as good.

BTW... I won't buy from Burpee. I do not support their habit of changing varietal names. That does not help the gardening community at all. I find it self-serving, and thus do not spend my money on their products --- file it under 'pet-peeves'.

I think standing by your principles is an admirable quality!

Ugh... 2nd Edit... I don't buy treated (or pelletized) seeds either. I know that in some cases it's just convenience, but I haven't had a good reason yet to need them.

I won't buy from Burpee anymore either. They invent variety names at the store and charge triple what it is worth online, and have a reputation for mislabeling seeds (happened to me too.) I am a big fan of Johnny's, if I had the t-shirt I would wear it. :)

Seed is seed. That's true. Whether it is organic or not makes no difference to the seed itself. But when I buy organic seeds it is nice to know that the plants that produced those seeds were grown using the same organic principles I use in my own garden. Buying organic seed means you are supporting organic seed producers and organic agriculture in general.

Rodney

I really hope that a child's /grandchild's genes or DNA aren't affected by fast food...but I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out that it's possible.

I'm not educated enough on the subject to analyze or discuss it really...I just prefer organic food mostly because it tastes better to me and I like the idea of eating pure food.

An organic seed vs. a non-organic seed might be no different genetically but the organic seed makes me feel like the plant came from a happy/pure place.

I definitely prefer to eat organic and I prefer to have a child with a woman who didn't eat fast food...instead of me not eating organic and reproducing with a woman who eats fast food.

It's more just about the idea that life is sacred and why screw with food? Why not eat something pure that has supported healthy humans for millions of years? Why not eat what tastes better? That's what I ask myself.

Rodney does make a good point. And indeed that is the main reason I prefer to buy organic, not for the supposed health benefits or whatever but to support sustainable farming.

I believe that the type of fertilizer or using non-organic method can affect the seed. What is often called "chemical fertilizer" might imply that it is some thing like plastics and polymers, that did not exist before. But that is misleading. Everything on the face of earth is chemical, that includes the organic matter as well. The no-organic fertilizers are "Synthesized". Plus as far as the plant is concerned it does matter where N, P, K atoms came from.

I believe organic movement is a noble cause for the environment more than it is for quality of fruits and vegetables for human consumption. They are a lot deadly and poison organic things that can kill and cause health issues.

Again I have a lot of respect for those who care for our environment.

Sey .

I really hope that a child's /grandchild's genes or DNA aren't affected
by fast food...but I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out that it's
possible. An organic seed vs. a non-organic seed might be no different genetically
but the organic seed makes me feel like the plant came from a
happy/pure place.

If that is what you truly want then you may need to think about growing only organically-grown open-pollinated varieties and their seeds and not F1 hybrids. Or to use your analogy, the child of 2 parents is a result of the combination of their 2 DNAs - one embryo made up of 2 component DNAs. It matters not if that combination is natural or artificial.

But a child of multiple parents where the embryo is created by manually fertilizing with the DNA of 3,4, 5 or more parents (as with most modern varieties) to produce the embryo (the seed) would not meet your criteria.

And that is one of my primary concerns with the buy organic seed obsession so many seem to have. It gets carried to extremes. They do not understand how the hybrid variety seeds are created. I am NOT talking about the GMO stuff here so don't misunderstand that. There is no genetic modification of the natural DNA of those parents, simply a combination or a re-combination of them. So yes, when choosing seeds it does make a difference whether the seed is hybrid or open-pollinated.

I'm all for supporting much of the organic gardening movement but to do so effectively one has to really understand the difference between the truth and the fictional hype associated with it. Failure to do that only encourages more of the marketing hype.

Dave

No one has marketed organic to me. I personally just feel better when I eat organic food. It's that simple!

That's great. I agree completely. Which is why I garden organically in the home gardens and buy organic foods. But that doesn't mean that you must use organic seeds to accomplish that.

And that is what is being "marketed", being sold to the masses to improve margin profits for seed companies - that to garden organically you have to use only organic seeds and pay more for them just because they are labeled as such.

Dave

I agree fully with Dave on this.

You have the freedom of choice to do what make you feel comfortable.

I believe that , growing organically starts AFTER you sow the seeds.

Sey

I believe you guys!

The inner scientist in me though is saying "buy some organic Sungold starters when you get the chance and compare the tomatoes' taste to the tomatoes I started with non-organic seeds".

Lets hope my update won't happen longer than 4 months from now. Ugh! The wait!

Side tracking, but I noticed the mention of Renee's Seeds - I buy various seeds from this company often (they carry them on the rack in my local feed store) and I have had really good luck with them. The Sun Golds I've been growing for the last few years are from them now that I think about it, no complaints at all. Great germination rates generally, too.

i'm actually trying to find sungold locally. anyone know of a place that carries seeds? doesn't matter if organic or not. just want to get my hands on a few seeds.

i have some Super Sweet 100 Hybrid cherry or cherry "sweetie" if anyone wants to trade. also have some Porterhouse (2-4lb tomatoes) or Beef Steak. just looking to grow a couple plants so 6-8 seeds will good.