That looks like a raised eating bar with a 'knee wall'...is that right? I would use counter balance support plates. I do not think this situation is safe from the looks of the photo. If that' is a knee wall....that could fall someday and really hurt someone.

Half wall (knee wall, pony wall) overhang support requirements for both 2cm and 3cm granite:

For overhangs less than 1/3 the depth of the top [i.e., support wall is 4 inches, countertop is 6 inches, overhang is 2 inches] no additional support required.

For all other half-wall overhangs, corbels or plates are required to support the overhang.

Which is another reason I worry that 2 brackets are not enough. I would very much like to be wrong and not have to tear up the tile.

I looked into the kind of brackets that go on top of the knee wall, but would taking the granite off and installing those cause the granite to crack

The general contractor wants to install corbels over the uneven tile by drilling through it all the way to the stud. From some googling, it seemed like it shouldn't be done that way and that the bracket shouldn't even be over dry wall let alone uneven tile. What's correct? Can we just do it over the tile and still be safe?

I'll let the pros provide feedback on what's 'correct' (i.e., structurally sound), but this is what we did:

Our bar top is 86" long -- four brackets may be overkill, but better safe than sorry! We cut into the drywall so the brackets could be mounted directly onto the vertical studs of the knee wall.

We purchased our brackets from originalgranitebracket.com. We needed the 5Hx4V version, but wanted the vertical portion to be longer. The owner extended that length at no extra charge, and shipping was free. Our brackets aren't as pretty as yours, but I'll never worry the bar top will come crashing down on anyone! Best of luck.

ETA: Once the entire project's finished (drywall patch), we'll repaint the visible portions of the bracket a different color.

@javiwa: actually that's exactly what I want to do to fix this, but can I remove the small sections of tile and dry wall and install the new brackets with the granite in place? without cracking the granite?

mykonosberry: these are questions I'd wait for one of our pros to answer. However, I can understand your concerns. Beautiful kitchen and stone, BTW.

ETA: It might be helpful if you would post views of what how the two brackets are currently attached.

Our guys installed/affixed the bar top onto the top of the knee wall with adhesive, but also cut into our drywall (at the end of the bar top) and wedged the top's end into the drywall 'slot'. The brackets were installed afterward, so we didn't need to remove the top, once in place. I've seen the 'top of knee wall' brackets you're referring to, but for us, removing the top wasn't an option. I believe that's where you are.

There should be a support every 30" if you're using supports or corbels.

The Counter Balance system, as previously mentioned is another option.

Counter Balance brackets

The 6 & 10 Rule tells you how much of the overhang needs to be supported:

• If your slab is 2 cm, you can have up to a 6" overhang without support.
• If your slab is 3 cm you can have up to a 10" overhang without support

Keep in mind, though, that the minimum recommended seating overhang is:

• Table-height seating: 19" of clear knee/leg space

• Counter-height seating: 15" of clear knee/leg space

• Bar-height seating: 12" of clear knee/leg space (but be aware that the surface needs to be deep enough to hold things like a dinner plate, silverware, & drink glass without the risk of knocking one or all to the lower surface - and that's around 18").

Bigger question - why is your future MIL dictating what supports you should have??? Is she paying for it? If so, ask her if she is also willing to pay for a new countertop when this one fails and any medical bills for anyone who gets hurt (or pay out if anyone sues...)

It sounds like your fabricator did it right - and then a non-expert (GC, MIL, SO) decided s/he knows better than the expert????

I'm no builder. But since the granite backsplash was cut too tall, shouldn't the granite guys have cut it to be flush with the top? Then at least part of the granite bar would be resting on a solid surface? Wouldn't it be better, to pull that bar piece of granite off, trim the backsplash down to flush. Then while it is off, fasten some supports onto the bare surface and have them extend out to support the overhang piece. Then no tile needs to be ripped off. Bear in mind I am not a builder and may misunderstand the scenario, but from my take on this, it is what I would want.

I wish AZStoneConsulting (Kevin), StoneGirl, FloridaJoshua, or other stone pros were still around.

Edited to add: Ah! But Joseph is around to take their places!

Hmmm...now that I think about it, maybe even the fabricator messed up. It's my understanding that stone must be installed completely level and over an even surface.

It sounds like the tile installer messed up to start with - not making the tile flush with the top of the knee wall. The fabricator should have either insisted your GC fix the problems or maybe installed a plywood surface on top of the knee wall & tile to make the surface level and even.

Why was the backsplash tile installed before the counters? That's not how it should be done - it should be the other way around.

I agree, Buehl. It makes this layperson extremely uncomfortable knowing a piece of granite that size is teetering on the BS edge on one side and two brackets on the other.

Buehl, the OP says it is a granite backsplash on the other side that is too tall and not flush with the surface. That's why I think they should come back, remove the top slab and get things all done properly.

"The 6 & 10 Rule tells you how much of the overhang needs to be supported:

• If your slab is 2 cm, you can have up to a 6" overhang without support.
• If your slab is 3 cm you can have up to a 10" overhang without support"

True enough, but that applies when the 1/3-2/3 rule of cantilevering applies (1' can cantilever over 2' of cabinets). You can't have 10" unsupported when you only have 7" or so over the wall.

The supports here are inadequate. A triangulated brace mounted over the tile and into the studs will be structurally sound, but you've got to like that look. You could pull the top and inlay 1" square tube into the top plate. No knee knockers and adequate top support.

I swear I'm not making this up, but I just made an appointment with a customer to fix this very thing this afternoon. $600.00 +-.

Ps. The granite installers never should have installed this. What were they thinking? Contact the granite co. owner and insist he come out or the service manager. If he doesn't, explain that it isn't safe. My granite company is obsessive about support and will refuse to install if something isn't up to par. Your granite people should have said, "well come back to finish this when you've done XYZ".

Where did you get those brackets? Were they designed for heavy support like quartz and granite? I wonder if modifying the bracket made it weaker? Or was that piece for looks only? There are companies that make these "invisible" brackets just like this and they aren't cheap.

But also, you need more of them. I would have the granite folks come back out, remove the top, either cut down the backsplash or build up the pony wall to align with the backsplash.. Have them install several PLATES like I posted above...and maybe put plates near the brackets you already installed...unless you know for sure they can be used for stone.

Did your installer use any kind of build up under the raised ledge top? If someone leans on an unsupported section....it could CRACK and fall down.

And I agree with Beuhl...have your MIL, SO and granite fabricator pay for anyone that is hurt or killed by this. Can you imagine the weight of this falling on a foot????

Your MIL and SO are wrong....this is not good enough. This is kinda scary and I wouldn't sit there.

I agree that this whole setup looks so unsafe. My advice has to do with relationships rather than the granite though. You need to have a word with your fiancé about what it means to be married. It means that the two of you will be a team that stands together. You may (actually will!) disagree with each other, but you present a united front to MIL, GC, or whoever after you settle it between you. It was inappropriate for MIL to direct the GC to do anything to your house without specific directions from you and/or your fiancé. It's your house, not Mom's. Mom may give her opinion if asked, but she's not the homeowner here and it wasn't her place. This issue will come up in other forms throughout your marriage and if you don't talk about it now, it may become a major cause of marital discord. Just sayin'.

@Joseph Corlett, LLC

" A triangulated brace mounted over the tile and into the studs will be structurally sound, but you've got to like that look."

Could I do the same over the tile mounting with front mount brackets like this one instead of the triangulated type? http://www.countertopbracket.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=FMP 

Also can these be mounted over the tile that is uneven and not flat? each little tile is a bit taller or shorter than the one next to it.

Eta: proper link

http://www.countertopbracket.com/countertop-support-bracket-front-mount-p/fmb.htm

That bracket as designed is useless. The part that forms the triangle (the curved member) is actually the part that does most of the work in this type of bracket. The curved member should be straight and preferably further braced by additional webbing or using a thicker bar. This looks like a bracket you would use to put up a decorative shelf, not heavy granite that someone can lean on.

"Also can these be mounted over the tile that is uneven and not flat? each little tile is a bit taller or shorter than the one next to it."

mykonosberry:

Yes, simply shim the bracket to level and keep it plumb.

Unfortunately, your bracket link shows nothing.

No matter the configuration of the bracket, curved triangulation or not, it must be rigid. Unmodified "L" brackets and steel on the flat are not stiff enough.

P.S.:

I offer marriage counseling in addition to countertops. Hose your MIL and see if SO supports you. It's you or her, there's no polite way to say it.

Do you like the look of the tile there? Would you be heartbroken if they took all the tile off and replaced it with drywall that they painted grey, like your cabinets? That would eliminate the need for drilling through the tile, and eliminate the tile/granite mismatch.

Well the general contractor kept saying that removing just the tile to mount front mount brackets will cause the granite to crack and that he doesnt want to do it so I doubt he'll remove all the tile. Also the tile was all just put in there so I doubt the SO would ever agree. I am willing to make this a diy project with front mount brackets if someone would confirm that just removing tile it is unlikely to Crack the granite (I know that there is always the possibility) Although now I'm kinda afraid that the granite will not just Crack A bit but fall on my face as I work.

I still think it needs to be made to sit flat down on the pony wall also so the backsplash on the other side needs to be shortened. The granite guys should come back and correct that. They must have template it so it shouldn't be taller than the pony wall if template correctly.

Silken...thanks for the correction. Assuming the fabricator put in the backsplash, I guess s/he also messed up - or at least did not fix it like Joseph described later - unless that's what all the brackets were doing that the OP's MIL/GC/SO decided to remove.

Joseph...thanks for the additional information. I need to add that to the Stone thread.

Joseph - I emailed you via your "Contact Me" link on your Houzz page.

Pull one of these down the bottom of the top and the granite's coming off without breaking.

Mykonos, as long as we are at it, reconfiguring your bar area, taking off the granite, calming down the appearance, there is a way to re-build this without corbels if that's the look you (or your MIL) want. As Treb says, you would ask your installer to do as follows: "You could pull the top and inlay 1" square tube into the top plate. No knee knockers and adequate top support." And after they have pulled it, you can have them remove the tile by pulling down the drywall it is mounted to and replacing it with a new piece of drywall.

I can't see how this would be a DIY job. You need to get your contractors to do it properly. If you think you would be able to amend the installation later, by yourself, without family issues, then you really should try to get it done correctly now.

Who owns this house? Who is going to live there?

I have to wonder, based on the OP's screen name, if there is more than a future MIL issue here -- perhaps extended future family or close community is involved, and she is very reluctant to rock that boat very far.

Ok so it's been an effort but my SO agrees with me that we should add brackets. I have a few more questions

1. Can I just install 3 brackets without taking off the counter top or fixing the backsplash that is too high?

So how important is it to fix the backsplash so that the counter sits on the knee wall? Because original installers must have thought it was ok with the number of brackets they originally had right? I have emailed them to ask them for advice, but they have not responded. I have contacted other granite installers for quotes as well, and only 1 wanted to work on someone else's installed counters.

6x6x2.5, .38" thick A36 steel bracket

2. if we install over the tile, is it ok if the tile cracks while drilling? As long as the tile doesn't fall out after the bracket is installed, is that ok?

The contractor is still waffling about if he will even remove some tile and install the brackets directly to the stud, we have offered to pay him extra -whatever he thinks is fair to do it and he still doesn't really want to do it, so I'd like to see if this option is viable.

@everyone giving me relationship advice: Thanks for caring. I think my SO took so long to convince because he is was thinking that his mother's remodel experience meant that she knew what she was doing. I always thought that I had a pretty good relationship with my future in laws, but this remodel has really brought out something weird. I think they feel like I'm looking down on them when I disagree with them or choose something different than they would? FMIL has gone through something like 10 remodels (different houses) over the years so she really feels like she knows what shes doing, hell I thought she did too, but maybe that's why she's dug her heels in on this bar issue. And the floor issue and the paint brand issue and ugh so many issues. Oops this is becoming a vent/rant.

My MIL was similar and it strained my relationship with her son at times. But they are a generation older, so even if she has good ideas, they may not suit your tastes. I think it might be good to put your foot down now (in a nice way) or you will always be getting pushed around. I wish I had stood up for myself better.

Some helpful phrases:

* We really appreciate your advice. SO and I have talked this over and we've decided ___.

* Puke Purple is a lovely color, but we think we'd rather go with Amazing Peony in this room.

* I'm not a big fan of X flooring. It's perfectly fine, but not my favorite. We've decided on Y.

FMIL's reply: blah, blah, blah

Your reply: see above. Just keep changing out a word here or there and keep repeating the same thing. Smile. Be sincere. Be intractable. Together.

You may decide in the future that FMIL was right about something, but it's your home to live and learn. Most "mistakes" aren't critical, especially ones having to do with paint brand or white oak vs cork floors. Listen to MFIL's experience, but make your own decisions. When you have a baby you'll be in a much better position to fend off Grandma's ultimatums about diapers, formula, sleep routines, pacifiers, etc. Believe me, Grandma will have ideas on those and many more subjects. ;-)

Are you kidding me? You mean to tell me that top is basically just teetering on that little backsplash piece and two pitiful metal shelf brackets? Please do not go anywhere near that thing. Yes, it absolutely could fall on you. This is NOT a DIY fix!

It doesn't matter who told the GC to remove and modify the brackets. If he actually did it, then he is totally responsible to fix this properly.

So, what if the MIL told the GC to tear down a load bearing wall, would he do it and wait for the roof to cave in? I am sorry, but this is just plain stupid and incompetent.

I would tell your contractor to get over there immediately and support that overhang with 2x4s or something underneath to temporarily prevent it from falling. It really looks that dangerous to me.

Those new brackets you got do look nice and strong. I would want GC to remove the tile and sheetrock and attach the new brackets to the studs. Then patch the tile back. It does seem like the fabricator should never have installed it with that backsplash piece taller then the wall. However, it still should have been caught by the GC and dealt with. If the granite top breaks, someone is responsible to replace it, and it isn't you.

I am actually really annoyed at this whole situation for you. You are the only one with an ounce of common sense here. I like that advice from Suzanne. I'd definitely nip this MIL thing in the bud real quick.

"I'd definitely nip this MIL thing in the bud real quick."

Tell it, girlfriend.

Re-read what Joe advised about how to fix this properly, several posts up.

Actually, after looking at your current brackets again, I don't think removing the decorative curve detracts from the brackets' strength at all. They look like they were inadequate for the job from the beginning even if you had as many as originally planned.

The problem is you have a large and VERY heavy piece of stone balanced on a tiny edge with only brackets maintaining the position. The stone's center of gravity is far from any solid support, and I don't think even those heavier brackets can do the job over time as gravity will constantly be placing excessive stress on them. In addition, to install them on top of tile (as you are asking about) might increase the risk, as the constant pressure from the brackets might slowly deteriorate the tile until it fails.

Improving the base that the stone sits on helps to prevent the above because the center of gravity then becomes closer to the support, therefore less stress on the supporting structures.

The installer and GC need to take it all down and install it properly -- get a level, solid and strong surface for it to rest on, and properly install support pieces . If the stone cracks (and Joe has stated that it shouldn't if handled properly) they are responsible to replace it because they are the ones that didn't install properly to begin with.

You might need to sacrifice some of the tile, but that should be easily replaced.

You and SO need to be assertive and firm. No extra payment should be required -- you already paid for it to be done correctly but it was not! GC likely is "reluctant" because he is looking forward to his next job and wants to be done with yours.

Good luck

What they said. And don't be reluctant to lose the tile altogether. It's a blessing in disguise.

update for the curious: I finally got a hold of the original granite installer and had an appointment made for him to come out and look it over/ give me an estimate. He missed the appointment and isn't returning any calls or texts sent his way the past 3 days. He's the owner of the company too. Maybe something happened, maybe he's just like that. In any case, my GC has agreed to install the front mounting brackets directly to the studs and retile over it for $100, which makes my S.O. happy because he picked out the tile and keeps saying that he loves it. So that's what's gonna happen. I just want it to be safe and over with so I can move on to the next thing, which is the new couch FMIL bought us as a surprise which doesn't fit the look I wanted to go for AT ALL. yay...she's so niiice... (Q_Q)

I'm glad you got the safety stuff taken care of. As for your fiancées taste, you're going to learn to love it....or subtly change it God willing. Thank your future mother in law for her kindness, then in the same breath ask her if you can get store credit so you can get the couch you want...with a smile on your face. Best of luck!

Yeah, get the MIL situation fixed FAST!! For the sake of your future marriage! Just tell her thanks, but no thanks.

rebunky = spunky. I like it!

"...he picked out the tile and keeps saying that he loves it. So that's what's gonna happen."

LOL!! We have a granite top on our dresser (7' long) that DH absolutely, completely loves, but I'm mostly tolerant of. We've been married 45 years now. If he really loves that granite, so be it. Good thing it wasn't the kitchen, but as it turns out we both loved the same granite for the kitchen.

Jannicone, Lol! Yes, I'm known for letting out my spunk every once in a while. Rebunky is my nickname from my husband of 23 years. :-D

mykonosberry, glad to here the good news on the countertop fix. I am not surprised in the least to hear about FMIL's surprise couch gift tactic. Classic revengeful passive aggressive move for you winning the countertop battle. Do you want to borrow my pruning shears? Haha!