To Geothermal or not to Geothermal?
8 years ago
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- 8 years ago
- 8 years ago
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HVAC upgrade or Geothermal?
Comments (55)‘Careful what you wish for’, you’ll be getting geothermal but possibly not quite what you think, as your contractors seem to be cutting corners. Geothermal is not something that should be done on the cheap. If you’re more driven by price than quality then I would suggest saving your money and install something else. 5-tons at 650ft equals about 130ft/ton, that’s not nearly enough pipe in the ground at full load. Best practices require 1000ft of borehole for 5-ton. Unless you see that in the contract you should be walking! I would also suggest finding a contractor that will install the brand heat pump that YOU want since it’s you that’s writing the cheques. If you walked into a car dealer wanting to buy a Cadillac and were told they sell only Chevrolet would you just buy a Chevrolet or would you look elsewhere? Waterfurnace will also likely be better supported by the manufacturer. I would not just take what’s given to me and sign a contract. Reread my previous posts even in this thread and pay attention; I am trying to educate you and it does take time to compose a coherent response! Caveat Emptor - Buyer beware! IMPO SR...See MoreGeothermal make sense for our house?
Comments (15)"Does anyone who is considering geothermal have a calculation comparing heating with gas?" I have a chart dating back to 2009, however it is Metric, in French and relates only to price structures in the Montreal Quebec region. It's the relative prices for different sources of energy broken down into the final cost per kW of heat delivered into the home. Here in Quebec there are 2-elecrtical rate structures available for residential customers. One is the single rate known as the 'D' rate and the other is the Dual Rate know as the 'DT' rate, available to clients having 2-sources of energy, one being electric (with HP as an example) and the other being carbon based. The way it works is those with the single rate pay about 7.46-cents/kW year round and those with the Dual Energy rate or Bi-energy rate pay about 4.33-cents/kW when the temperature is warmer than -12C (+10.4F) and about 18.44-cents/kW when the temperature is -12C (+10.4F) or colder. This is done for basically 2-reasons, one being not to stress the grid when it's extremely cold and the other to maintain a large supply of clean electricity to export to our American neighbours at a substantial profit. Back to geothermal verses gas, in 2009 and the prices haven't substantially changed, 1-kW of heat delivered into the house with the single rate and a 90% efficient gas furnace cost about 8.45-cents/kW. Single ratepayers with geothermal and COP-4, the cost would be about 1.87-cents/kW. Where it gets REALLY interesting here is the dual energy rate WITH geothermal. The basic cost of electricity remains at 4.33-cents for the entire year except for a period totaling about 2-weeks of the year when it's -12C (+10.4F) or colder, at 18.44-cent/kW. With a geothermal split heat pump unit and a gas furnace, geothermal clocks in at an unbelievably low rate when coupled to the dual energy rate. When it's warmer than -12C (+10.4F) the cost per kW of heat delivered into the house with a COP-4 is just 1.08-cents/kW and the gas never comes on. Even when the cost per kW skyrockets to 18.44-cents/kW with a COP-4 geothermal HP the cost per kW of heat delivered into the home is still only about 4.61-cents/kW. Remember that with geothermal there are NO defrost cycles - EVER! That when the backup gas does come on it is to assist the geothermal, not instead of the geothermal. So that when it's -30C (-22F) or colder, the gas and the geo are only on for a short while because they are on together, in tandem, the geo still at COP-4 and the gas furnace staged to whatever is required. This rate of only 1.08-cents/kW of heat delivered is the lowest rate I've ever seen for active heating. As a nice bonus, it's also the same low rate for air-conditioning in the summer, not to mention DHW production with a desuperheater especially when coupled through a buffer tank to an instantaneous gas DHW heater. Open loop geothermal with passive cooling would be about the closest thing to 'Free' at this rate as there would be no compressor running, only a blower and circulating pump! Rather long and convoluted but I hope this helps. SR...See MoreGeothermal - which water heater?
Comments (16)The 2-main facts you stated are that you are doing a geothermal liquid-to-air system with a desuperheater to preheat the domestic hot water (DHW). The second fact you stated is that a regular active, as in electrically powered, 50gal domestic hot water tank would meet all your hot water needs. Based on these 2-facts, all that required is a passive buffer tank that is properly plumbed between the geothermal heat pump’s desuperheater and another active 50gal electric domestic hot water tank. That’s it! The reason for the buffer tank is that the desuperheater wants to see a greater temperature differential between itself and the entering water, as will be provided by the buffer tank, without the buffer tank you will have hot water circulating from the active tank through the desuperheater with very little temperature differential. That would be very inefficient. During the summer when you’re air-conditioning anyway your domestic hot water will be essentially free as the heat removed from your home will be transferred to the buffer tank rather than just exhausted to the outdoors as with an air source heat pump. The electric elements in the active tank will either hardly come on or not come on at all, depending on the amount of air conditioning required and domestic hot water consumed. Have a look at the link below for informational reference regarding high quality buffer tanks. Remember that the buffer tank should have no electric elements or electrical connections at all. Your geothermal contractor that has experience doing this should plumb it. A plumber that lacks this experience might get it wrong! Verify the credentials and references of your geothermal installer. Read some of the other numerous geothermal posts I’ve written on this site. I hope this helps. SR Marathon Buffer Tank, see model # MTS50200 (no electric elements)...See MoreGeothermal heating and cooling
Comments (73)Most of the above statements are wrong. Geothermal can save you money, but in the predominantly heating climate where NG is available, probably not that much. It is also depends on the ground conditions and the amount of moisture in the soil at pipe depth. = > There are a lot of dishonest people in the HVAC business. Ok. But HVAC dealers are facing some severe risks. It is soil conditions, loop failure, error in the design, flat looping. I dont know anything about vertical drilling. Pressure vs Non-pressure flow centers - GSHP equipment does not care [at least resi < 6T], but non-pressurized is more forgiving esp with a little air in the lines, you can add a little liquid, you can replace the failed pump. = Where GSHP equipment could really shine - is the ability for multiple units to share the loop [but you can not use non-pressurized design]. Like having multiple zones. I think if you are building a house and need two ASHP units, GSHP could be a viable option. = My main concern is with the ground separation over time due to vibrations and expansion & contractions of a pipe (like seasonal) ....See More- 8 years ago
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