Here I have sketched our floor plan, sort of to scale (not perfect), I hope you can see where walls and doorways are. I did not put the windows but you can pretty much tell that there are a lot of windows in all rooms except for the kitchen. The walls of LR and DR are mostly windows all across, plus windows above the LR built-in shelves, then there are 3 windows along first floor bedroom wall, windows on both sides of upstairs bedrooms etc., so we have a lot of light everywhere but the kitchen.

Yes our front door is the original with all the small glass panes, the LR windows are original with the small glass pane design at the tops (I don't know the word for these details!), we have nice matchstick oak floors, all the built in shelves, the original french doors to the LR (although we took these doors off and put them in the storage shed to protect them from the kids for now), the original tile around the fireplace, etc., often these things are lacking from some of the other houses around here that have been updated more frequently over the years. There are certainly both plusses and minuses about having an old house but mostly I like its personality and forgive the quirks!

Your idea of closing the kitchen/DR doorway seems pretty reasonable, I like it better than closing the kitchen/hall doorway as the other people did, it makes a nicer shaped kitchen and also controls traffic flow through the DR so that it consistently goes through the hall. It's not really far to go between the kitchen and DR through the hall instead of through the kitchen/DR doorway.

Thinking about it, I guess we do use that kitchen/DR doorway a lot, in fact we frequently use the DR table as kitchen prep space! We do like having all those doorways... hmm.

With the floorplan you can see what I mean about how moving the stairs would create a natural flow up/down the staircases. If we had a nice homey downstairs area, we could even open part of the wall between the staircases and add a banister, and it would feel like a natural part of the house. But I can't imagine upgrading the basement enough so that it would feel like a "floor of the house" any time in the foreseeable future!

What if you made the right side wall of the kitchen a straight one like this?

Red and green rectangles indicate where the new entry from the hall can be.

I didn't come up with anything clever at the moment, but I think that would enable you to use both the basement and built in walls more efficiently.

Hmm, it looks like I did not represent the geometry of the "hall" quite accurately in the floor plan sketch. The stair steps from upstairs go a little bit closer to the opening of the angled kitchen/hall doorway than it appears in the sketch. There is about 11" from the opening to the bottom stair. It's an interesting idea to move the opening, and if moved it could leave a 25-26" deep space that could maybe fit a pantry/fridge as in your drawing...

I just went and looked, and that edge of the opening really looks like an essential load bearing column, given that it is the point where the ceiling changes slope, so I doubt it is something that could be easily moved, but I don't know much about houses!

Even if you don't consider the basement worth a new set of stairs, I think it would be worthwhile to consider it further. I plugged it into the Ikea planner in case it's helpful. I removed the angled wall to open up the hallway. The wall that goes behind the fridge is about 8.5' long (36" from the back of dining room built in wall) creating space for a pantry, a 36" fridge and a 30" set of cabinets. The light from a larger window over the sink might help lighten up the hallway a bit. Also, if the opening between the dining and kitchen doesn't go all the way to the exterior wall, doing so might be something to think about; being in the kitchen won't feel so closed off from the dining room, but anything on your counter might be more in full view.

Thanks! I can't get IKEA kitchen planner to work, for some reason it's really painfully slow (maybe my internet connection?) which is why I originally resorted to sketchup, but in sketchup I have to create everything from scratch and it doesn't show all the details of the items. So it helps to see it modeled in the planner (and whatever planner sena01 is using, it looks different from the IKEA planner)

I talked to family again tonight about the stairs and we agreed that it's worth at least investigating what it would take to move them. It's also appealing to everyone that it would make that 2nd bathroom more easily accessible, usually someone is running desperately to use it when the 1st bathroom is occupied, and they have to run the long way around through the kitchen and then navigate the basement stairs, which feels like a long way at such moments! The current stairs themselves are a little forbidding because the slope of the ceiling is lower than it needs to be, the stairs are rather primitive in construction and the lighting isn't great. We might feel differently about the basement if it's more accessible.

Also family requests "somewhere to sit in the kitchen." We used to have a small drop leaf table on the empty wall, but moved it out of there to make way for the useful shelf unit. Wish I had a magic wand to conjure a little more space out of somewhere :-)

Maybe I could put a bench on the shallow wall, with a little bit of storage under it? Use something like a 15" tall, 15" deep wall cabinet (which would work out to 19" seat height assuming it is on standard IKEA legs), and put a couple of drawers? I'm also trying to think about how to make the kitchen conceptually extend along that shallow wall so it will seem a little bigger!

Also family requests "somewhere to sit in the kitchen."

Kitchen by Norbert Brakonier and Catherine Jost, Luxembourg · More Info

Kitchen by Norbert Brakonier and Catherine Jost, Luxembourg · More Info

What do you need seating for? Eating in kitchen or just a one person perch?

If you just need a perch for one person, I recommend a kik step. We have one in our galley kitchen and I keep it at the very back wall. It easily rolls out of the way, it's very stable for our kids to use to reach upper cabs and its s comfy height to sit on when I'm waiting for the timer or just hiding from the children :-)

Plus kik-steps come in fun colors:

We have one of those... the red one... it gets a lot of use, and I sit on it, too! Not just for reaching shelves, my daughter is still small enough that she needs the extra height for things like flipping pancakes (that job always goes to her), stirring things etc. My son cooks more than she does, but he is older and can do these things without a boost.

We also frequently put chairs in the kitchen. Usually so that someone can sit and talk to the cook, and sometimes a chair serves as prep space for my daughter if she is mixing something and needs a low surface she can easily reach. But right now though, there isn't any place you can put a chair that is not in front of something and getting in the way.

I think the main thing is for people to sit in the kitchen and chat with the person cooking or washing up. We don't have any desire to eat in the kitchen, the dining room is close enough.

sena01, that is a very cute little set of table and chairs!

If you scroll up to the last plan I posted, there is room on the angled end of the counter for a stool (under the word 'prep'), but that nice stretch of counter is contingent on the DR door being closed off.

If the doorway between the kitchen and dining room is opened up to the exterior wall and the end of the counter is open, you could keep a stool there on the end. Technically, the seating would be in the dining room, but it would be a nice place to help and/or chat with someone working at the sink-stove.

I think the kids and I are going to try playing house and pretending that things are in different locations while we "cook."

I'm actually really liking mama g's first plan, up at the beginning of the thread :) It's logically laid out and has a lot of storage space. There are obvious areas for most kinds of things and activities.

Casual food preparation (toast, smoothies, snacks etc) has a logical home on the "extra prep" wall without cluttering the cooking prep area with small appliances, bread bags left out on the counter, etc. People can also get their snacks without entering the cooking/washing areas at all, by using the hall doorway.

Dishwasher is right next to the dining room, with its own area where dirty dishes can form their inevitable skyscrapers without interfering with other kitchen activities. One person can clear the table from the dining room without really entering the kitchen, while another person is in the kitchen actually washing things.

Clutter tends to be a huge problem in our kitchen :) So it's nice to have these natural clutter-accumulation areas separated from the cooking prep area, so that the prep area might have more of a tendency to stay clear.

When standing in the sink area, the dishwasher can be unloaded into "silverware/dish" drawers on one side, and "cooking things" drawers on the other side, without moving too far (when those drawers are open).

The giant food monolith merges with the stair area to form a big block which leaves the rest of the kitchen feeling pretty open. Some wall cabinets can be put on the "extra prep" wall without interfering with the openness of the long stove/sink wall.

The wall over the sink and prep area can have big windows since there is no need to put wall cabinets over there.

People using the basement door are not too much of an issue, since there is plenty of room in that aisle (about 4') for people to pass behind the cook, and they aren't able to block the space between cooking and prep areas, because it's on one continuous counter.

I don't think it is a big deal that there is no designated sitting space, since a person can pull up a chair in the area between "food monolith" and "extra prep" and not be directly in the path of someone cooking or washing up.

Cat food/water bowls have a protected place that is about as far from kitchen activity as it can be. I realized that this is actually a fairly important kitchen feature :)

Does that all make sense, am I missing something?

I'm actually really liking mama g's first plan, up at the beginning of the thread :)

My number one priority in a kitchen would be to have the sink and the range on the same counter with a reasonable prep space between them.

So, although I tried different alternatives for you since people/families may have different ways of doing things, mama g's layout would be my favorite too ))

Yes, thanks for your ideas too, this is all very helpful! And thanks to benjesbride and mama g! I would not have thought of any of this myself.... I'm sure I will be back as our plans evolve :-)

I have a question for all of you about aisle width!

With the layout above, there is only a 35" aisle width between the DW/sink and the cabinet side on the other side of the aisle. I am not so concerned about the DW since it isn't open for long periods, and anyway it is impossible to make enough space to walk past the open dishwasher, because it is limited by the doorway and wall corner. The sink is a different story since people are at the sink a lot (especially since we only have one sink). It seems like 35" aisle width at that location would be too tight, doesn't it?

My questions are, first of all how bad is the 35"? Would it make a significant difference to move the corner back, given that we can't change the door and wall? If we move back the corner, how far back should we move it back? Is my "radius method," above, a reasonable way to determine how far back to move it? What do you think would be more comfortable and less unattractive, the stepped back corner or angled corner?

We can't really make an adequate test how it would feel in practice, because our sink isn't currently in that location, it's farther up the wall. We tried pretending, but it's hard to tell when we are just pretending. (Also, even if small people like my family members can squeeze by each other, I would prefer not to make an aisle width that would be totally unacceptable to normal-sized people.)

I'm happy to have given you some options to consider. :) I live with narrow aisles--there is 36" between the island seating, and the counter across the aisle. If my adult kids are sitting at the island, I can still get by with no trouble. The largest of them, my SIL, usually leans forward a little, to give me more clearance, but my own kids pay no attention. I think it would be easier to get by someone who is standing--both parties could give a little. In a new build, I wouldn't advocate for using narrow aisles, but in a remodel you usually have to make more compromises. I like angled and clipped corners--I clipped several corners in my
kitchen, so I vote for the angle. Even if it limits the cabinet space,
you still have counter space at the back. I would try to match the angles on both sides.

The NKBA recommends a minimum of 12" landing on one side of a cooktop, so if you push the range as far to the right as possible, you would gain a few inches clearance between the sink and corner. I would suggest standing at your sink, and having one of your family members to pretend to pass by, then measure the space that is taken by both of you, and work from there. Also, it's worth noting that you need less space at hip height, than at shoulder height, so once the door frame is cleared, the passerby will have more shoulder room.

NKBA guidelines #17

BTW, that's not the only entry path to the kitchen from the DR is it? Establish a new rule--sink user gets precedence, and passerby must yield the right of way. ;)

When you say "match the angles" do you mean like this?

What is underneath the two upstairs bedrooms?

The basement is under the upstairs bedrooms. (The house is 1.5 stories)

How many steps down is it to the basement? Like, starting from the kitchen floor, how many steps down do you take till you are standing on the basement floor?

Similarly, how many steps up to the upstairs is it? Like, starting from the hallway, how many steps up do you take till you are standing on the same level as the bedrooms?

5 steps up, 6 steps down.

(I just grabbed this picture off google maps, sorry it's a little hard to see the house through that almond tree)

Is this a house you will be living in for a long time? What is your total budget for the kitchen, and are you planning any further improvements to the house in later phases?

We are not planning to sell soon. Certainly not until the kids leave home (kids are 8 and 10 now). We have not settled on a budget yet, because we are trying to balance cost of kitchen work with other things that aren't budgeted yet either. (I could go into more detail but that would make this post pretty long.) But anyway, we are focusing on basic improvements to make our living space more functional.

Also, not sure what is behind your questions, but we wouldn't consider major structural changes like raising the house by 1/2 story (although lots of people do that to this type of house) since the house is mostly good enough for us as it is :-)

I like the first proposed plan where the refrigerator has the built in pantries around it and the sink and range on one wall together a lot.

I also like the plan that moves the cooktop to the angled corner and offers a second sink, but I think if I were going with a scenario like that, I would want the short wall to be my prep sink and prep counter space, which is where you already do most of your prep work right now, and leave the main sink for dishes on the wall closer to the dining room for ease in loading, unloading, and setting the table altogether. You could even keep your tall cabinet idea at the end and store dishes there. This might make it easier to have a cook working in the little alcove area while others were cleaning and preparing for dinner/unloading the dishwasher/etc... down the main drag.

We don't do prep work on the short wall right now, since we have very little depth of counter space there (we have a bookshelf sitting precariously on the top of the shelf unit on that wall, that serves as a makeshift "pantry"). In that shallow counter space, we don't usually prepare anything much more complicated than bowls of cereal. But I think we would use that area a lot, if we had a normal depth counter there.

We really "should" be using the space to the left of the sink a lot more, because it is the longest stretch of counter that we have, but for some reason, we only use that area for cutting things, or for cold food like sandwiches or salad. For something like baking where we need to spread out, we usually go to the dining room table.

Our most popular prep space for cooking is the 18" counter to the left of the stove, plus the tiny rickety kitchen cart on the left of it, plus the griddle that usually lives on the left 2 burners of the stove (when the griddle is not being used)! I think we use this area because it is in the direct path between sink and stove. We really do almost everything on this little space.

So I think we should go with one of the plans where the primary prep space is on the counter between sink and stove. I actually didn't think of that before coming here, so I'm really grateful for the help!

Various ideas, to be used separately or together:

"We don't do prep work on the short wall right now, since we have very little depth of counter space there (we have a bookshelf sitting precariously on the top of the shelf unit on that wall, that serves as a makeshift "pantry"). In that shallow counter space, we don't usually prepare anything much more complicated than bowls of cereal. But I think we would use that area a lot, if we had a normal depth counter there.

We really "should" be using the space to the left of the sink a lot more, because it is the longest stretch of counter that we have, but for some reason, we only use that area for cutting things, or for cold food like sandwiches or salad. For something like baking where we need to spread out, we usually go to the dining room table.

Our most popular prep space for cooking is the 18" counter to the left of the stove, plus the tiny rickety kitchen cart on the left of it, plus the griddle that usually lives on the left 2 burners of the stove (when the griddle is not being used)! I think we use this area because it is in the direct path between sink and stove. We really do almost everything on this little space."

I am sorry I wasn't clear; that is what I meant. There was a plan Sena posted that the put the sink on the wall where the range is currently, and if I were to do that, instead of putting the large sink and dishwasher there, I would put the prep sink and prep surface there across from the range that was moved to the angled wall. Then your large sink and dishwasher would be on the main stretch of cabinet where you store your dishes and nearer the opening to the dining room, and you still have that lovely area next to the big sink to spread out more if you are doing baking and such.

Lindsaymarie, sorry if I misunderstood! I had to draw a picture to visualize it. It's been really helpful to see all these options. I like the changes you made to sena's plan. It makes sense to have the prep area across from the range to make it possible to just turn around to reach it (although that would work better if I had longer arms :-) and to move the cleanup area closer to the dining room. At this point though, we have become rather attached to the idea of having both the range and sink on the long wall with continuous prep area between them, we are just trying to work out the other pieces of the puzzle!

Jillius, wow! Those house plan ideas are a lot of fun to imagine.

We don't want to make the upstairs bedrooms any smaller because the kids are up there, they want all the space possible for their tables/desks, bookshelves, boxes of toys, legos, art and science projects, etc. My son now has a queen bed that my sister didn't want any more, and wants to move an old couch to his room for more hangout space with friends... anyway, the kids would not be happy to have their rooms reduced in size. One room is 10 x 14 and the other is 10 x 13.

As for the grownups on the 1st floor, we don't need space for anything more than our king bed and a wardrobe, so our room could be a little smaller and we wouldn't mind. (It is 11 x 11 now.) I have thought about eliminating the 1st floor bedroom closet in order to enlarge the bathroom, which is very small (about 6 x 6.5 ft) as seems to be typical in these houses. When you are sitting on the toilet your legs are under the pedestal sink. There is no space for shelves in the bathroom, so we put most bathroom stuff in the hall closet. It would be nice to have a normal sized bathroom by modern standards :-)

The last plan, moving the 1st floor bedroom, wouldn't work for us because there is a very busy street on that side of the house. The current location of the bedroom is good, because it's the only side of the house that is not directly facing a street (we are on the corner, and there is an alley behind our backyard). Anyway we wouldn't want to change things around quite so much.

Thanks for doing the plans though, there are a lot of good ideas there!

I liked that plan a lot, too, Fabulatrice. I think that having the fridge and extra prep area in the alcove would be nice as well. And if you didn't need full depth storage underneath, that angled counter would be a good place to sneak in that seating area you spoke of, too, especially on the angled side where cabinetry would be trickier to work with.

Have you considered a 2-3'bump out of the kitchen area if the house? I think it will cost less than moving the $tairs.

Also, if you place the fridge against the stairs to the basement, consider removing the drywall in in that location and turning a few studs, to recess the fridge about 2".

When you say "match the angles" do you mean like this?

I think what mama goose meant was that the two angled cabinets should be of equal width. If I'm thinking correctly since the difference b/w the length of the top and bottom walls of the kitchen is 18", the widths of the angled cabinets should be 18" as well if you want to keep the hall opening's angle (does this make sense??)

I have 1" o/h in the drawing and disregarded any door trim you may have. The 18" wide cabs have 12" depth on the narrow side and standard 24" on the other. As I'm not an expert I have no idea if these are the real dimensions you should go in real life, though.

In our summer house, I have a stack of drawers with an angled side. I'm not there now, so I can't give you the dimensions, but as you can see from the overhead view I compromised and have a steeper angle and a narrower opening.

The 2nd picture shows roughly the amount of lost space in the cab on the left of the oven.

I drew the overhead view, so it's just a close representation.

Ok, thanks! That's helpful. Here is what I came up with. The front is symmetrical except for a little filler on one side that makes it fit the space. I put 36" drawers in the middle, and open shelves on the side (this is the only part that isn't stock IKEA). I really want to get as much drawer space as possible :-) The upper cabs are standard IKEA 15" deep. (Lines on the countertop are just guides to show how things line up)

The whole kitchen from above

Having shelves on the sides is a good idea, and I think 12" would be fine. Maybe you mock up with some cardboard boxes to see how it would feel.

fabulatrice and sena, yes, that's exactly what I meant. I like the vintage look of the open shelves--but you could skip the shelves on the left side (as you face the cabinet), and tuck a stool under the counter, to be pulled out if someone wants to hang out with you in the kitchen. With the filler, it looks as if there's enough space for a stool, and you could keep the toekick base the same on both sides.

One of my favorites:

Klaire,

Have you considered a 2-3'bump out of the kitchen area if the house? I think it will cost less than moving the $tairs.

It would be nice if we could do that, but we could probably only go out about 1' maximum which I think wouldn't be worth it? The sidewalk is pretty close to that side of the house (I think 4'). The DR windows bump out about 1' from the house at the farthest place.

Also, if you place the fridge against the stairs to the basement, consider removing the drywall in in that location and turning a few studs, to recess the fridge about 2".

That's a great idea! Will have to look into that.

mama g,

That's a nice kitchen! I have no idea what the original cabinets looked like, but I'm guessing they were probably painted like that and I think the yellow/cream colors would have been very appropriate for this type of home at the time it was built. I've seen several ads from that time that have have colors like that!

We have been increasingly enamored with the douglas fir that we are seeing in these kitchens somewhere on the spectrum between "craftsman" and "asian inspired." Hopefully we will be able to budget doug fir cabinet/drawer fronts from one of those companies like semihandmade or scherr's, both of them have doug fir as an option. I also like the craftsman tile backsplash in the picture below which is sort of like what we have around our fireplace.

Kitchen cleanup and storage · More Info

Capturing the View · More Info

Vertical Grain Fir Cabinetry · More Info

Crown Hill Remodel · More Info

Our built-ins in LR and DR are douglas fir (which was probably the most common wood used for that purpose in these houses), but quite a bit darker in color since they are 90+ years old and were stained. I guess if we had the energy to do so, we could probably refinish the built-ins to bring out the fir color a little more. All of our interior trim is painted white, and under the paint is douglas fir also, but we would not want to strip the trim (especially since there is a lead paint layer under there). My mother thinks it's possible that the trim was originally painted when the house was built, but you can tell from the interior of the DR built-in that it was never painted, only stained (and the stain is really old).

I posted a request for ideas about our bathroom in the bathrooms forum if anyone wants to comment, you have all been so helpful with the kitchen!! :-)

Ok, I am sketching in some more details, how is this looking now?

Note that I do not have any idea what the countertop or floor would be, I just put "marble" countertop since we have fake marble now.

The basic floor plan is the same as in previous posts except for a more complex cabinet arrangement on the wall with the clipped counter edges,

The window wall doesn't have any upper cabs. Window is enlarged, however there is still a lot of empty wall space. I really like the open feeling of this wall, but not sure what to do with the walls to utilize the space and also give a more "finished" impression.

I would especially like feedback on the more complicated cabinet arrangement on the wall with the clipped counters. Does this look usable and attractive? The open shelves on sides are shallow (7"-10") while the center glass front cab (30" with double doors) is standard IKEA 15" deep. I think the small drawers on the side would be really useful even though they are small?

I decided to remove the basement door, because it gets in the way and we never close it anyway. But when I stood "in front of the range" (in the new range location) I was uncomfortable with the gaping hole behind me leading into the basement. Then I thought of putting a noren curtain there (we have others in our house) and this seemed like a good solution since it divides off the basement stairs from the room, but doesn't block passage through. I think it fits with kitchen style and also makes it feel a little like "japanese restaurant" :-)

thanks mama goose! I have some things that I like to display too... I tried adding open shelves in those bottom triangles, and although I like the look, in my kitchen I think it's better to have the open shelf space higher on the wall where the cats can't interfere with it :-)