I would not apply fertilizer in liquid form unless you really know what you're doing. Most granular fertilizer is at least 50% slow release, which means the granules are coated and break down slowly to release nitrogen over time rather than all at once. Liquid is more than likely all quick release. Your sprayer will be super-useful for chemical applications: pre-emergent, post-emergent herbicide, iron and possibly PGRs if you decide to go that route.

Getting a nice lawn is a long term process, it's not going to happen in two months. Remember what you are doing: you are creating an un-natural monostand of grass that you then have to somehow give an advantage to so it can outcompete the local weeds and grasses, which by the way are far better adapted to the local conditions. How do you accomplish that? Like most gardening, it's a series of actions and choices designed to encourage growth of the desirable species and suppress the undesirable ones:

1. Cultivar selection - what kind of grass do you have currently? Pennington mix from Lowe's is never going to be as nice as Bullseye or Rhambler.
2. Pre-emergent - prevent weeds from germinating and outcompeting your grass.
3. Feeding - keep your grass strong and able to compete with weeds by providing it with the nutrients it needs to thrive.
4. Proper watering - deep infrequent watering will promote deep root growth and cut off the water supply to weeds.
5. Post-emergent - selectively kill weeds that made it through the pre-emergent before they can outcompete your grass and produce more seed.
6. Renovation - maintain turf density by replacing any lost turf with new plants from seed.

Repeating the above for 2-3 years will result in a beautiful lawn. Don't be discouraged, you're on the right track. In addition, you can add other supplements like iron for a deeper green. I would recommend Lesco granular fertilizers from Home Depot, the one with 4% iron is great. As far as timing for fertilizer applications, I encourage you to obtain that information from your local state university extension which would be most familiar with your local conditions and resulting best practices.

Here's a lawn maintenance calendar I found from MSU:

http://extension.missouri.edu/p/G6705

I greatly appreciate you taking the time to help me, well all of us out. You and all the knowledgeable people on here are so helpful.

My lawn was a hydroseed that was put on in new construction 4 years ago. I have no idea the mix or anything. I'm sure it's a fescue lawn, but it was probably full of weeds and filler. I know this isn't the time, but what do I use for a post emergent and when? Also, when I do overseed later this year, is it worth buying a more expensive seed rather than the "i need 100 lbs of fescue" from the farm supply store?.

Post-emergent works after the weeds have germinated, so when you see weeds it's time to spray. Keep in mind, even though you put down pre-emergent you will still get weeds because there's roots in the ground and crabgrass for example is biennial. Pre-emergent only affects seeds. You may have to apply multiple times, but read the label for how much you can apply a year. Since your lawn size is large, you want some sort of concentrate that contains 2,4-D and dicamba for broadleaf control and quinclorac for crabgrass control. Tractor Supply sells a gallon jug, I forget what it's called. You can also find it at every big box stores, though they may be less cost effective for you.

Regarding seed, you definitely get what you pay for. If you walk into a farm supply store and ask for fescue you will probably get Kentucky 31 - pasture grass. You should post a picture of your lawn so we can see what it looks like and what's there. I don't think putting down expensive turf type fescue into Kentucky 31 will look very good. SeedSuperStore sells some of the best varieties, pricey but worth it in my opinion. Check NTEP tests to see which ones did best in your area.

Do you have a way of watering all 25ksf in the fall 6 times a day when it comes time to seed?

If I owned a spray rig & had that much area to fertilize, I'd be brewing compost tea. You can't over apply, it can be almost free if you already compost & they even sell concentrate so you don't have to have compost piles all over the place.

Reeljake - I've barely heard about compost tea, and have never considered it, but I will definitely look further into it.

J4c11 - I will get a picture of my yard this evening to better give you an idea of what I'm working with. I'm pretty sure you are right thought, I've been using Kentucky 31.

Yes I do have an irrigation system for the whole yard and it's on a well so I ok with watering as much as I need to. So you wouldn't suggest an expensive turf type seed? Am I just stuck with a goal of a nice looking pasture grass?

No, you're not stuck at all. You have the option of spraying Round Up over everything in August and then re-seeding your entire lawn with a quality mix of 90% TTTF and 10% KBG. You will have a spectacular lawn in the fall and going forward. In that case, you may want to skip the prodiamine this spring.

Oh, that sounds like a very bad idea, lol. Is there a way to make my pasture grass look pretty? I can come to the realization that I won't have a country club rough type of yard, but I could settle for something better than what I have now.

Roughly half of the nitrogen used in the world comes from air that is combined with hydrogen from natural gas to produce nitrogen fertilizers. The rest comes from microbes growing in conjunction with legumes or a few other plants. At least one third of global food production is dependent on factory-produced nitrogen. Without it, billions would starve. If we depended entirely on legumes, more than 40% of agricultural land would have to be devoted to legumes. There's only so much alfalfa a person can eat...

Seeding is really not that big a deal, especially if you have an irrigation system. You just spread the seed with a rotary spreader at the recommended rate, add starter fertilizer, and water lightly 5-6 times a day to keep the seed moist. You should have fescue germination in 4 days with temps 75+. If you want to stick to what you have, I wouldn't spend money on expensive turf type tall fescue because it's not going to blend well with the K31, just keep overseeding with K31 and following your lawn care program.

Well, it sounds like I'm at a crossroads here. If I were to reseed do I need to clear all of the dead grass off an start with a fresh area of just dirt?

No way I would use that much roundup or any other controversial chemicals if you're on a well. That's a while different animal from most of us on municipal water. I'm sure it's not a big deal to spot spray & I'm no tree hugger but I wouldn't spray 25k ft of roundup if my family water supply was also in that area. Just my 2 cents, but you were on the right track with organics & keep up the research to find a cost effective method you can live with.

You can certainly overseed on top of the old grass too. No need for bare dirt.

j4c11 - " Keep in mind, even though you put down pre-emergent you will still get weeds because there's roots in the ground and crabgrass for example is biennial"

Does this mean that all the crabgrass that took over my yard for the last few years will be back even if I spray pre-em?

Reeljake - thank you for that advice, that definitely makes sense since that all go down into our water supply that is not filtered or cleaned.

If it was a hydroseeding done by a contractor, I doubt it was K31. It's probably whatever was in that year's contractor mix, more than likely a lot of annual ryegrass, as that germinates quickly. If you know the company that did it, ask them what they used. Or what they use now, if they don't know what they used 4 years ago. If you want to try renovating in the fall, maybe do just one section and go with a lighter rate of Prodiamine this weekend so it will be worn off by August. That way you can see if new seed makes enough improvement to justify doing another section the following fall. Proper mowing, watering, fertilizing, weed control may be enough.

Roundup degrades and is eventually lost to the air as simple elements. It does not remain in the ground or contaminate water, unless you pour it into the well. Crabgrass is an annual.

Crabgrass is an annual.

Well I'm glad someone corrected me, I thought it was biennial, don't even know where I got that information from. @grindstaff, the pre-m should take care of it since it's an annual.

I'm thinking I may just make what I have the best I can. I live in a rural area and you can't see my yard from the street so I'd much rather just feel good about my lawn when I pull up to my house rather than worry about best in the neighborhood, btw there's nothing wrong with that, if I lived in a more populated subdivision I would probably start all over on my grass. Becky - you are probably right. The total cost was incredibly cheap, which due to our lack of knowledge is why we went with them. Since crabgrass is annual, I'm guessing I will have lots of brown/bare spots where it doesn't grow back this year. Is that normal? and do I just fill them in with seed later in the year?

What grass you do have will sort of fill in as it will have room to lean to the side of the clump. It's not going to fill in like KBG would, as that is a spreading grass and fescue is a clumping grass. I used to have lots of crabgrass before I started using pre-emergent. It overtook the grass (tttf) and crowded it out. When I used the pre-emergent, the grass had a chance and I had very little crabgrass. You may have some bare spots. No big deal and you can overseed in the fall. My problems now are the summer heat and brown patch and poa annua. It seems I am overseeding every fall because of the summer damage. K31 does seem to have good resistance to brown patch.

When you mow, cut off no more than 1/3 of the blade. Keep your blade sharp. Don't mow when the grass is wet. Don't mow in the heat of the day during summer, wait until early evening. In the summer mow the grass as long as possible (3-4 inches). When you water, water deeply (one inch) and infrequently (once a week) if rain does not suffice. Measure with tuna fush cans to see how long it takes your system to deliver an inch. During hot, humid weather, water early in the morning so the grass blades can dry off before nightfall. For fescue, most nitrogen fertilization should be in the fall. Don't fertilize in early spring or in the summer. Milorganite can be used most anytime but even be careful with that in the hot summer. Most every lawn could use more organic matter, so in general leave the clippings on the lawn. Mow your leaves into the lawn in the fall. Have you had a soil test?

Thank you for the help Becky. Sounds like you came from where I am at now. What helped you turn your yard around. I just looked up poa annua and I think I've had that also!!

I plan on just fertilizing with either the lesco brand containing iron or milorganite sometime in May then I won't do anything until September in terms of fertilizing.

I'm guessing that sometime in May I will want to put down a post em product also.

I do not know how much my irrigation system puts down. I will have to measure it. the issue I have is with such a large yard, I have 12 zones, so as you can imagine it takes a long time to water my grass.

I do mulch mow, and I had a yard test done last year. Morph dissected it for it and gave some these recommendations:

September 1: Apply 5 tablespoons of 20 Mule Team Borax per thousand square feet.

September 15: Apply 10 pounds per thousand square feet of gypsum.

April 15, 2016: Apply 10 pounds per thousand square feet of gypsum

Unfortunately, I did not do the September items. I was so bummed out about my yard and so lost that I just gave up on it hoping to get a clean start this year.

When you do the Milorganite in May, mix the borax with it. Follow Morph's instructions on mixing. Poa annua germinates in the fall, seeds in the spring, dies in the summer, leaving brown spots. I'm going to try low dose, repeated applications of Tenacity in April (hoping to get some kill before seeds drop). If you don't overseed or renovate in the fall, apply more Prodiamine in early September. That will put a big dent in the poa annua, keeping next year's crop from germinating. If you do seed, you can use Tenacity as a short-lived pre-emergent while the grass seed gets going and use Prodiamine later in the fall after the grass is well established. I think your plan is fine, just maybe go with the .75 rate instead of 1.0 rate of Prodiamine this weekend if you think you may seed in the fall (fall meaning late August/early September). Get your gypsum down this spring and do the borax with Milorganite in May. Do some post-emergent weed control if needed whenever things are actively growing. See how the summer goes and decide what you want to do in the fall about seeding. Fertilize in September and October (synthetic or organic) and do a high nitrogen, fast release application (like urea) after the grass stops growing but before the ground freezes. Another soil test a year after your first one will be helpful to let you know if you need more stuff (like gypsum or borax) in the fall.

Sounds like a plan. Thank you so much for all the help. I think my biggest thing will be getting the watering schedule down, and making sure I put the products down when I'm supposed to. It sounds like after the May feeding there really isn't much to do until late August/early September so that will be a good time to regroup and get prepared for the fall.

If you decide to renovate a section, start in late July by killing everything with glyphosate. Then water lightly each day to encourage weed seeds to germinate. About a week after the glyphosate, cut as low as possible, bagging clippings. Keep watering (just a little bit but keep it up). In late August kill everything again. Cut low, bagging clippings. Then seed and start the frequent light watering several times a day (timer will be handy), gradually decreasing frequency and increasing the amount as the grass comes in. If you decide to just overseed, skip the glyphosate. Cut everything low, bagging the clippings. Then seed.

Bag the clippings from 25,000 sq. ft. of bluegrass?! Not on your life.

@grindstaff3 The dark green color on your lawn must be your pet urine. Urine is high in Urea. That's basically what you find in a chemical fertilizer. Too much in one spot will kill the grass.

I would recommend taking a soil sample to see what you need to apply on your lawn. Without a soil test you will be guessing and most likely applying unnecessary product. I can tell you, that if you follow an organic approach to lawn care, you can have a self sustainable lawn in just a few years. That means, no fertilizer, no lime, no re-seeding, to detaching, no aeration. Just mowing.

Also crabgrass will germinate when the soil temperature reaches 45F. So organically the best way to fight it is by re-seeding, and letting the grass grow tall so it can re-seed itself.

Organic is cheaper because you will stop using fertilizer all together.

Safe, because is non water soluble (you don't need water to decompose the product). You can put more fertilizer than recommended and will not burn the grass, therefore there is a lower risk of water contamination by runoff.

Also, organic fertilizer like seaweed, corn, soy, compost will be safer than using Roundup (glyphosate). Anyone who says chemicals fertilizers or pesticides are safe is lying. Even organic pesticides like vinegar are somewhat toxic.

My advice is to:

Test your soil first

Follow soil test recommedations

Spread compost and re-seed your lawn.

Apply organic fertilizer to feed the microbes in the soil.

Be patient.

I hope this helps.

Javi

I can tell you, that if you follow an organic approach to lawn care, you can have a self sustainable lawn in just a few years. That means, no fertilizer, no lime, no re-seeding, to detaching, no aeration. Just mowing.

It would also look like the grass on the side of the freeway.

So organically the best way to fight it is by re-seeding, and letting the grass grow tall so it can re-seed itself.

Great idea, as long as you don't mind your lawn being 3 feet tall.

Also, organic fertilizer like seaweed, corn, soy, compost will be safer than using Roundup (glyphosate).

What does compost have to do with Roundup to even compare the two?

Even organic pesticides like vinegar are somewhat toxic.

Even water is toxic if you drink enough of it.

My advice is to:

Test your soil first

Follow soil test recommedations

Spread compost and re-seed your lawn.

Apply organic fertilizer to feed the microbes in the soil.

And once you're done with all that he has a bridge he'd like to sell you...

Ya, J Gill, I appreciate the advice for sure, but I think I want to take an active approach with the yard. Go as organic as I can but still realizing that synthetics may be very beneficial to me. I don't mind working in the yard.

Although, I do agree that the green spots very likely are pet urine. We have 2 boxers and they always do their thing in that area.

Outside of that, does my yard look serviceable using the agenda that's been established in this post? When I look at the pictures it looks way worse than I was hoping it would. It almost looks like a field and not a yard, especially on the close up.

What would you guys do if this is what you saw when you went outside of your house?

What would you guys do if this is what you saw when you went outside of your house?

I'd kill everything and reseed.

I am not selling anything. I am just giving my advice. I have been teaching organic lawn care for the past 12 years. There is no secret how organic works, the only think you need to know is some basic soil biology. That's all.

My point is that by leaving the grass tall at 4" during the spring, you will do 2 things. Delaying some weed seeds from germinating because the tall (4" tall) grass it is shading the soil. Also in the spring and fall grass goes to seed. The more good grass, the less space for the weeds to grow. So it doesn't have to look like the side of a freeway.

Roundup you kill the weed, you are just dealing with a symptom (weed growing because it is the perfect environment for the weed to grow), but you still don't fix the problem. Same weeds will keep appearing every year. Same applications every year of broadleaf control, grubs, you name it.

Organically you take care of the problem (fixing the soil, improving soil texture and pH, creating the right environment for grass to grow instead).

You are right about water. It can be toxic.

3 years old. Self sustainable lawn. Mowing is the only expense on this lawn

I'd really be interested to hear about what the "problem" actually is and how you "fix the soil" so that the one desirable species of grass thrives but all other locally adapted species of grass and weeds don't.

The lawn you posted above, what type of grass is it and where is it located?

What is all the brown "grass" in my pictures?

Brown grass is commonly known as thatch, but it's not always a bad thing--the worms eat it once you get enough biological activity going. That takes a while...

ofcourse it does lol. Maybe I should ask a better question. Other than literally starting over, where do I go now that you've seen my yard? I have pee patches, thick thatch, and no color. It's like I need to do 20 different things at one time.

Start by picking a strategy--Organic or chemical or a mix. Then pick a method--sprayer rig or dry spreader, both are available in tow behind sizes of 4 or 5 feet wide from any big box store. Color is easily fixed with iron & nitrogen in dry or wet form, but the pee spots will become yellow instead of green. Thatch & weeds come later, don't sweat it now. If you can get the color back this season, that's half the battle & you can build your soil after that to attract worms & other wee beasties. Plan twice work once? Something like that...

I've read something about putting sugar on the pee spots. Any luck with that? The dogs are 10 years old and we live on 15 acres, so when we let them out there's just not much we can do about where they go to the bathroom. I think I would like to go with a mix, using the tow behind sprayer (25 gallon) and push spreader (turf-ex w/ 75lb hopper). chemical being the pre-em, post em, winterizer and organic being the fertilizer.

So should I just keep it simple this year? pre-em (prodiamine), milo w/borax and gypsum in may, post em (??) in june, overseed (sun/shade mix??) and soybean in sept, soybean in oct, winterizer in nov, all while mowing at the highest setting and watering 1" per week.?

should I dethatch and aerate in Sept also? I know I've heard about shampooing the yard, but let's just stick with a core aerator for my scenario.

No aeration or dethatching yet. Hopefully you won't need it. If those are your chosen products, the order sounds right. Slowing the weeds down with preM, then boost the existing grass until time to overseed later in the season. I haven't tried sugar, but it makes sense. We switched our dog from corn based Purina one to a grain free food & that seems to have cut down on the spots. No definite correlation, but I don't think anything else changed to cause the reduction.

I do think shampoo would be the first product I'd use with my sprayer though--Get a feel for how it works with a safe product & soften the ground up early

@j4c11 . The problem is the weed.

It could be dandelion, which appears in spring and fall, when there is low calcium in the soil. The solution is either calcitic lime, or the addition on compost.(calcitic lime is the best option).

Crabgrass (problem), sandy soil or heavy compacted soils. Usually happens on top of septic tanks (sandy), or in both sides of sidewalks or walkways (compacted soil). The solution is aeration and compost top dress. Soil becomes more porous, more oxygen and nutrients for the good grass to grow. Crabgrass has shallow roots. good grass has deep roots.

Basically each weed is a messenger that is telling you something about the soil. So, instead of killing the messenger, the best action would be to fix the problem. Once the soil is fixed (proper pH, texture and nutrients), the weeds will disappear, not because we are spraying pesticides, but because we change the environment for the weeds to grow.

That's why organically it takes a few years to change the soil. Chemically is a quick fix. You kill the weed but the soil stay the same, and that's why chemical lawns have to be sprayed every year with weed and grub control, in addition to fertilizers. Organic lawns don't.

The picture I posted above has a mix of Kentucky blue grass, fine fescue, and rye grass. It is located in Massachusetts, 1 mile away from the water.

Would you choose different products and grass seed?

That's not a bad idea about the shampoo, sorta kill two birds with one stone. I didn't know they made grain free food. I'll look into that though.

K31That is a picture of K31. As Becky surmised, and as your pictures would indicate, your lawn is very likely a contractor mix. Most contractor mixes are a combination of rye, TTTF and KBG. (Did you state where you live?) Your lawn also contains a fair share of barnyard grasses and assorted weeds. The "brown grass" are either dormant turf grasses or dead annual grasses/weed.

Per your request: If this were my lawn and I had your goals, I'd take the persistent, long haul approach. Pre M this Spring at the rate recommended for 60-90 day protection, a late May application of 1/2# N/k, Post M (e.g. Ortho Max COO) applications throughout the early Summer and again in the Fall per the directions of the manufacturer of the Post M used, a Fall overseed with a desirable fescue and KBG mix (keep a record of the specific cultivars for future seedings), and a Fall fertilization and a winterizer. Rinse and repeat every year.

@grindstaff3.

If you are using chemicals you need to dethatch in the Spring. Thatch is the dead roots of the grass. Chemical lawns need to be dethatched and aerated in early spring. The reason is because the microbiology in the soil doesn't exist, and thatch can't be decomposed. Those same microbes and earthworms aerate the soil, but are not present on a chemical lawn.

In organic lawns microbes and worms, aerate and decompose dead roots, fertilizer and organic mater, and also they feed on grubs, so there is no skunk or grub damage.

I hope this helps

J

@ J Gill Organic, Thanks for your help. I do see what you are saying that an organic treated lawn works on its own in a way. I just want to get to a point where I can make adjustments here and there as opposed to now where I'm in crisis mode.

@yardtractor1 Thank you for your plan. With where my yard is and where I want it to be I need someone to basically lay it out for me and then hopefully I can learn as I go to pass that on. When you say 1/2# N/k do you mean buy something with X-0-X and use half the recommended bag rate?

I guess I also need to cut back on my planned prodiamine application rate. I was shooting for the 5 month rate. Then maybe each year I can add/delete/adjust something but keep what's working (i.e. aeration, dethatching, organic/chemicals, etc.)

if I were to use milorganite and or soybean meal for a fertilizer can/should I add iron to it?

There's nothing wrong with those products at all, they're proven winners.

Usually (but not always) recommended application rates for High first number (N) fertilizers are intended to result in 1# of N/k. You can double check by doing the math (each number for NPK is the percentage of the corresponding nutrient contained in the bag. For instance: a 50# bag of fertilizer marked 24-5-10 contains 24%N, 5%P and 10% K. 50# x .24 =12# of N. At the application rate of 1#N/k it would cover 12,000 sq ft. At 1/2#N/k it would cover 24000sq ft.)

FYI, in four years, it's unlikely you have a thatch problem. A thatch problem occurs when dead organic matter and rhizomes builds up faster than it can decay. The mater then builds up to create a woven layer in/on the top of the soil that prevents water and nutrients from getting to the soil. You can check for thatch by looking at a cross-section of a plug like the ones you'll be pulling for the soil test. Thatch is associated with spreading grasses (KBG and and not with fescues and rye. If you have less than 1/2" of thatch, don't bother dethatching.

Another thing: lime and gypsum are not interchangeable. Adding gypsum will help change the Mg/Ca ratio without affecting the PH. This will help make your soil less hard/tight. So will increasing the organic content of the soil. Both take time. Aeration can help in the short term by fracturing the soil. It can also help accelerate the distribution of Ca/gypsum into the soil when aeration precedes the gypsum application. Best to limit aeration to the Fall, but if done in the Spring, it should be done before applying a Pre M. Once you get your soil balanced, you should no longer need to aerate (or at least seldom) BTW, the Mg freed up by the gypsum will also result in darker green.

Milo contains iron, so no need to add additional iron. Iron will result in darker green grass.

Thank you. Is it assumed that I have enough organic matter to eat up milo in order to produce what's needed? and should I do that at half the bag rate as well?

Lol, yes, unless you recently baked you soil in a kiln (and even if you did organisms would repopulate quickly), you have plenty of critters for organic break down. Milo is only about 40% fast release N. So it's already half rate. Don't get too hung up on the half rate recommendation. I made that because I'm unsure of your turf (and in deference to Becky and some university turf programs). Although promoting too much growth in the Spring subjects any turf grass to greater susceptibility to disease, it is more likely with fescue than some others. However, most all cool season turf grasses ( I know of none that don't) will benefit from a dose of N in late May -early June to prepare and store carbs for the stresses of Summer. I have KBG and I apply a full pound on Memorial Day.

If you're doing Milorganite in May to do the borax, as Morph prescribed from your soil test last year, that suffices for nitrogen in the spring. No need to do another fertilizer in June. Do the bag rate of Milorganite. You do not have thatch problems. What someone was describing as thatch is not thatch. This whole conversation is getting confusing. Reeljake and yard tractor are giving good advice but you need Morph, as he did your soil test analysis and is the best source for telling you what products your particular soil needs. Maybe start another thread asking for him in the title. Dig up your soil test from last year (find the thread if you can) and describe your situation and ask him what he recommends.