"attempting to plant 10 emerald arborvitaes in my yard for privacy"

please don't. anything but more arborvitae. if you give us an idea of the spot i'm sure you will get many recommendations

I don't get the hate for the arborvitae, it's one of my favorite trees.

Emeralds are slow growers (6-8 inches per year) so if you want privacy in the next 20 years I would go with the larger size. They transplant nicely, just make sure they have adequate moisture for the first two years, after that they're essentially maintenence free.

Read this link for detailed instructions on planting. Tree Planting

As long as the trench isn't too deep, I see no reason why not to use this method, it is a common practice when establishing new hedges. If a hedge is what you wish, space them out at about 2 and a half feet apart.

Besides personal hate, any reason why some of you dislike this tree?

I dislike how people plant them in formal rows then it looks weird as they die off in a random pattern.

Far as the trees go, I like them. I have three of the similar thuja o's.

"personal hate"...that's a little aggressive. Here are the reasons to be specific:

- overused

- lacking diversity - people always plant like 10 of them with nothing else, which looks very unnatural and tacky. At least mix them up with a variety of evergreen shrubs/trees, especially native stuff, and watch the wildlife and the diverse beauty

- useless from a natural standpoint (they do little to nothing for the ecosystem and much less than planting something native)

The three best lessons I've learned since joining this forum:

- NO Leyland Cypress

- minimal or no emerald green arbs

- plant smaller/cheaper instead of larger/expensive

We planted three Leyland Cypress between our house and the next one over in order to create privacy for our back yard/deck. We love them. Of course, we made sure to plant them quite far apart to allow for mature size. Then, we have 3 arborvitaes in a different spot where we needed: evergreen, tall, narrow, columnar. They work perfectly there.

But, I do agree that using either type of tree for a "hedge" is the wrong application.

Well, this is a new one. It's the first time I've heard feeding deer described as 'useless from a natural standpoint'. From the deer point of view, there is much to be said for evergreens thoughtfully provided by humans for food during the winter when other forage is covered with snow.

Nothing whatsoever "unnatural" about ten of the same tree (or any other plant type) growing together. Have you never seen a woods? And the native, straight-species Thuja occidentalis, as I so often report, is very commonly found in nearly pure groves. When a disturbance such as a forest fire clears a site, and if a seed source for this species exists nearby, it is commonplace for the species to very aggressively fill in this area, forming a dense grove with few to no other species present in the mix.

Now a few fun facts about arborvitae/Thuja occidentalis/northern white cedar-all the same plant: This was the first plant brought back to Europe by plant collectors from N. America....the very first one. This accounts in no small measure for the extreme proliferation of horticultural variants (cultivars) available in the trade. People have been working with this plant longer than any other N. American native. Also, arborvitae literally means tree of life. Sailors suffering from scurvy were able to be cured by infusions of foliage from this plant, so full of vitamin C is it. Also, very few people on this forum have any idea that this is a native N. American TREE....not just an endless offering at garden centers. Finally, for fence posts, wood shingles and shakes, deck lumber, etc.....basically any usage where the wood is left exposed to the elements, northern white cedar wood is the deluxe option, so much so that it has been hammered to within an inch of its life in many populous areas where it formerly existed in good numbers. Indeed, in the part of Wisconsin where I happen to live, every farmer back in the old days spent their winters out in the swamp cutting "cedar" and tamarack. Eventually, these areas were cleared, ditched and drained. People today largely have no clue these areas ever existed. I often have to wonder-do these folks imagine this land was always farm fields?

This trees larger cousin, Thuja plicata, has similarly been decimated and is no longer a commercial species (for logging) anywhere in the United States. British Columbia, Canada, is currently liquidating its supply of this valuable species. It is doubtful the world will ever see these trees in the numbers and sizes they once existed, as modern man is in too much of a hurry. Nobody who is growing trees as a "crop" will wait the 500 to 800 years it can take for such a stand to mature. Nevermore.......quoth the raven.

Considering that the deer overpopulation is due to humans...and that deer-browsed arbor vitae look horrific...no I do not consider this a normal part of the ecosystem. It is part of the suburban buffet responsible for the explosion in deer population.

Thumbs up for the native occidentalis though...and even better, plicata. Green Giants aren't as nice...pure thuja plicata is a special tree. I wish we saw it more for sale.

Since this thread has been well and truly hijacked at this point, I suppose there is no harm in offering my opinion.

I tend to hate arborvitae also...largely for aesthetic reasons. They just don't have many of the things I want out of a tree. They don't have attractive flowers, they don't have berries for 'winter interest" or bird food, they don't give the "Deep Woods" feeling I tend to want out of conifers. The popular cultivars look incredibly artificial and fake. They provide privacy and shelter for birds, but there are so many more interesting plants that do that and more. Holly, yew and juniper provide all that plus berries for winter interest, rhododendron has huge flowers.

I will say, about the only thing I *Do* like about them is the "solid wall" effect. There aren't many trees you can do that with, and it diverts people from planting those dreadful privet hedges.

As far as the poster's actual question...going big or going small is really a question of how patient you are.

see planting guide below ...

is this DIY? .. if so ... size is dependent on your physical capabilities ... the bigger the pot.. the heavier.. .... the more digging.. etc ..

do not dig a trench ... see link ...

whats your soil ... is it clay??? .. drainage .. does it perk ... etc

where are you ... big city name ...

are you relying simply on bigboxstore??? ... there is a whole world of conifers out there... and hundreds of named varieties ... in all kinds of colors and textures.. etc ... you could do two EGs... then a yellow version ... etc ... but you wont be finding the rare ones at BBStore ...

you should have had the grindings removed ... do NOT use that in planting ... too much raw wood ... it will screw up watering ... throw it all in a pile.. and let it compost for a few years ...

give a pic of the area... maybe we can brainstorm something for you ... think outside your box ...

again.. the link ... the absolute most important thing.. will be two years of PROPER watering ...

and you havent told us the size of your yard ... it really matters ... as to what a good choice might be ... much more info is needed ... for us to help you ...

ken

What do you all suggest as an alternative to the Emerald Arbs?

What USDA zone are you in? How tall do you want this to be? How long does it have to be?

Personally, I like holly hedges. The Blue/Meserve or Japanese hollies can be made into low formal hedges. You can make American Holly (Ilex opaca) or variegated English Holly into a taller less formal screen.

Also kind of like Juniperus virginiana 'Burkii' Burkii Eastern Red Cedar, Blue Atlas Cedar, or Alaskan Cedar for taller, less formal screens that have a vaguely arborvitae "look" but are a little less common. (And probably more expensive)

The "trend" right now seems to be for mixed borders. The theory is if you have a mix of plants and one dies, it doesn't stick out like a sore thumb. (And it provides another place for plant collectors to collect plants). Admittedly they usually don't provide as solid of a screen as a solid wall of arbs.

Nothing does the tall wall of green quite like arbs, if that's what you need for this application.

Ed, again, I suspect that few here have ever seen native stands of Thuja o. It is almost the direct opposite of what you said above......these are true representatives of an earlier time and almost beyond any other tree, do in fact give the "Deep Woods" feel. It's just that you've never seen this. I think we just discussed this recently here but evidently, Massachusetts is a poor environment in which to see what I'm always blathering about. I am surprised by that. We're at roughly the same latitude, we (Ma and WI) share a great many other typical forest tree types...etc. etc. So when you say that they (Thuja) don't offer this deep woods feeling, that all but clinches it for me that you-and many others here-have never once seen a "cedar swamp". I can all but guarantee that had you and others, your opinion would be adjusted. So it goes. There are plants and plant community types I've never seen too. I'd be off-base in commenting on them were I to do so.

Heh, go up to Door County Wisconsin....or the equivalent areas to the north and south of there....and I honestly do not believe you could find a "thicker" forest type. But alas, none of this is very well reflected in the usual use of these plants and their many cultivars in home and business landscaping.

You may be right. I may never have seen a true cedar swamp. Swamps don't necessarily make for good hiking trails. Or (more likely) I've seen one and didn't even realize those trees are thuja. (There are a couple old trees in my neighborhood that may be ancient arborvitae...took me a long time to even realize that.) The thuja I see regularly probably have about as much in common with the things you see in swamps as a chihuahua has with a timber wolf.

My template for the "deep woods feel" is my childhood trips to my parent's summer place in NH, where there are a lot of white pine and ferns.

Regardless, we aren't really talking true cedar swamp here. We're talking about a particular cultivar of thuja being planted in a straight row by someone who just cleared out all the older trees from her property. I doubt the intent is to go with a "naturalistic" look.

Perhaps, but I was directing those comments at what you had said. As for trails through swamps, they're everywhere. Florida, where I spent most of January, has miles upon miles of such trails, almost all boardwalks. They really do a good job of it down there. But more generally, I see no reason to paint oneself into a corner making unwarranted statements that such and such a plant community type is not one which would have trails. I don't even get where such a thought would be coming from.

New Hampshire and Wisconsin would be very similar in terms of tree types. Maine might be an even closer fit. I know there are significant groves of native Thuja o. there, as well as in Vermont.

Just a general note for anyone persistent enough to still be reading........Thuja o. is always known as a "swamp tree" because it has the rare ability to handle very high water tables. But in the best areas for its growth-and these tend to be limestone areas-it will happily grow up over hill and dale. Those are the best areas, and although my land is just barely beyond the limestone-near-the-surface belt, it is still strongly in the area where "cedar" does real well. Again, you'd almost have to have been from such an area to have any idea what I'm referring to. These are rare and otherwordly sites, what few remain. The coefficient of conservatism-no, not a political term, lol-but rather a measure of ecological value in the environment has this tree at 9 out of 10. That's very high.

Sorry, i didn't mean to "hijack" your thread. A few years ago I was YOU, trying to plant a row of arborvitae, getting yelled at by everyone else. I found out over the years that they were right.

I second edlincolin's suggestion of yew, holly, rhododendron and juniper as excellent subs for emerald arb. you could even mix them with one or two emerald arbs if that's your style. Good luck!

Heh, I think it was I who did the hijacking. One of these decades maybe I'll get over that tendency!

I like emerald green arborvitae, but in other threads it's been noted they tend to have more than one leader (unless you hand-pick them at a nursery), and under snow load can splay out, and may not fully resume original form later. I've read some varieties of arborvitae are better about having a central leader, but I don't know them.

Another controversial aesthetic point; there are yellow-glazed arborvitae. I planted a couple of yellow ribbon arborvitae at a place we used to live, and they were pretty. I didn't get to see them at full size, but it's a way to add some color.

If you get arb.s, read up on bag worms. Prolific, highly destructive & rapidly a problem. You could leave on vacation & get back to find trees decimated. Learn what their little cocoons look like. I found a bunch on a cultivar of Colorado Blue Spruce, so it's not unique to arb.s.

Love the soft feel of arborvitae. Don't like the stiff, thorny leaves of Holly, or the fact I can't walk bare foot around one. Your choice; some variegated Holly could give you nice color. Be mindful Holly come in male & female forms, so if you want berries, get a female; might need a male for pollination.

Wonder how Boulevard False Cypress does in your area? Just a thought for a mixed row.

I've long wondered to what extent the high toxicity of Yews is an issue; anybody's dog ever turn up dead around these? Or is that practically speaking not an issue?

Richard.

Never heard of any dog issues with yew.....or any other critters, for that matter. Isn't it just the seeds that are actually toxic?

Tom,

I thought cattle would die if they ate yews (foliage)- actually have heard this from several farmers in our area that specifically request no yews in their landscape. Supposedly twigs and needles are highly toxic.

Sometime soon I'm going to post a couple pics of 'Shermanii' and 'Spiralis' Arborviate that we have planted- both full growing selections with excellent landscape habits.

To the OP,

There's really nothing wrong with an arborvitae hedge, provided that the area is not prone to deer.

Newer selections like North Pole, American Pillar, and some of the older ones like Hetz Wintergreen or DeGroot's are fantastic landscape plants. Emeralds are over planted, but the main reason for not using them is their inability to stand up in heavy snow or ice loads and their tendency to throw up multiple leaders.

From a practical standpoint arborvitae are inexpensive, rapidly growing, and one of the easiest ways to create a screen or a hedge. I would use them but try and opt for a different variety. No need to dig a "trench" to plant them- just dig a hole twice as wide as the rootballs for each plant.

That could be-yew toxicity that is. I know taxol, a cancer drug, and quite toxic in its own right is derived from Pacific yew, and is probably present in trace amounts across the genus.

Agree with Select.........arbs are fundamental landscape plants. Choose a variety that will work in your climate. They present a rather "neutral" effect and as such, put other showier plants into high relief. That's a landscape function right there. A composition consisting of all "stars" would soon leave the eyes weary. We need punctuation in order to read long strings of words, and we need landscape punctuation to break up long strings of showy plants. Arbs are perfect for this.

I love my Arborvitae. I've spent about $2500 on them over the years. All total about 30 large (8 foot) or medium (4-6 foot) Emerald Green, Dark Green and Green Giants. That included delivery and for some planting. If you can afford it go for the bigger trees. If you are young and patient, get youngsters which are cheaper and will grow faster. I hand water them diligently and deeply for the first 2 years when the weather is dry. And mulch with compost and leaves or wood chips. They are doing great!

Before delivery I stake out the planting sites, generally in a zig zag pattern, or 2 staggered rows, interspersed with other trees. I don't like plants lined up like soldiers in long boring rows. They function as screening and "backdrops" for the 20 foot privacy borders I'm creating going down both sides of the yard, which are a work in progress. In front of the Arborvitae I put mostly native shrubs and small trees, rhododendrons, and perennials and grasses. The evergreen background shows off the flowers of showier plants. The birds love them too for cover and nesting!

The deer around here haven't bother the Arborvitae. One next door neighbor has a zillion Japanese yews they prune in to meatballs and gumballs and the deer (when they have done a little browsing) seem to prefer the Yews.