Cabinet makers don't get creative when building their units. They build exactly what they are told to build. These guys did too. It's too bad that what you wanted wasn't properly documented, and you had incorrect assumptions as to what you would be getting. You'll know next time. EVERYTHING has to be spelled out in the drawings and contract. And the GC has to have the skills to understand the nuances of all the parts inter relating. It's harder than you think it is to coordinate the moving parts.

Thank goodness for my KD and contractor. They worked together so well.

I'm so perplexed about this conundrum. Why does one, frankly, make the sacrifice to get a CD, if not for looks? If not for a built-in look?

Sure, I'd love the roominess of a full-depth, and I'd love to have the budget to spend 4x more on a built-in, but we got the CD because I wanted the look of a built-in for less (we had a built-in prior).

One would think that's a given if you're in the kitchen biz.

No offense to any pros here. I'm just thinking out loud.

I would push your contractor on the issue of tearing out the drywall. Not sure why he'd have to move any pipes or anything back there. And you'd get a full 3/4" (not half an inch) PLUS all the circulation space between the studs. So you'd essentially have no need for any additional clearance. That to me seems like such an obvious fix, and people do it ALL the time.

Erica, thank you for explaining what happened. That was nice of you to want to give a warning to others who might be helped by your story. I was so confused to why your kd or GC wasn't taking responsibility as this being their mistake. I get it now.

After reading your story, and please correct me if I'm wrong, it seems this "kitchen remodeling company" you contracted with in June was to provide the whole package, a one stop shop so to speak. They would provide their own KD's to design your new kitchen, their own cabinet shop to build the boxes and order the fronts from Conestoga, and then their own installers to install the kitchen. All for one big set price. Am I understanding that right?

The only reason you hired a secondary KD on the side was because their kd was taking forever to draw up the design. While you liked their cabinets, you were not as confident with the kd's abilities. A second opinion on your own dime gave you more confidence that you would get the kitchen of your dreams.

They knew about you getting this separate kd and said that was fine. Although it was with the understanding that they would not lower their design fees because you were having someone else do part of their job. You were okay with that.

Sorry for the re-cap here, I'm just trying to get it straight in my mind. So far, I'm right with you. I would have done the same thing myself in your shoes.

This second kd drew up an overall "concept only" design without precise measurements or specific details given because at that point you felt confident that the contracted company's KD was competent enough to finish out the final details. After all, you were still paying full price for their designer. The taking over of the concept design happened in Oct. Your second kd even took the time to meet with and hand over the concept design.

In Nov. you had a 4 hr sit down with the original KD and further tweaked/changed the concept design. Adding sink, etc...At this time you make clear that you want your cd fridge to look built in. You give the kd the specifications for the fridge so they will make that happen. Mid-Dec they present you the final kitchen design and you sign off on it.

Now, during install they inform you that your fridge is going to stick out like a sore thumb. Naturally you question and protest. They proceed to give you a bunch of excuses that 24" is the "standard" size unless told otherwise. They basically tell you it's your own fault. That somehow you, the non-pro who is paying for their design pro, should have caught that mistake on a 2D drawing? Excuse me? No.

Now the kicker..... One of the company employees on a power trip says this to you. One of them told me today he would remind me every time he sees me that they were correct. Seriously, he said that.

I am sitting here with steam coming out of my ears for you. I have to give you huge credit for not ripping that persons head off!

At this point, after calming down, I think it's in your best interest to just pay the extra to add a piece of trim to scribe out the pantries to 26" as Jackuval suggested. These people are beyond unprofessional, rude, stubborn, and flat out stupid to do this to a customer over a $200 mistake. And sorry, but in my opinion, it is their mistake. It makes no sense to upset a customer who is probably paying in the 10's of 1,000's of dollars over such a piddly amount. But, it just isn't worth the stress for you to deal with such unreasonable people over such a small amount of $ in the scope of things.

I hope you can have them do exactly as Jackuval described using the molding as a scribe. I asked my GC husband about the baseboard idea and he said yes that would work great. Please just tell them their solution is not working for you. What is the point of only going to 25"? Why not to 26"? A solution is not a solution if it doesn't solve the problem. Hello!

Sorry folks, I seriously think this is the longest post I've ever written. Oh and one last thing, Haha!

I completely understand the explainations the Pros above gave above about why the cabinet maker is never at fault for mistakes with the design. They build what they are told to build without questioning if it's a good idea or not. Like in this case, since Conestoga makes the fronts as ordered by this remoldeling company, they would not be at fault if the fronts were off because they ordered them wrong.

My question is, how is this company not responsible in Erica's case? The design Erica signed off on ultimately was theirs. She paid them for it. Shouldn't they have caught the 24" pantries as a mistake?

Hi,

Can you tell us the fridge model number so I can read the manual?

Casey

Rebunky, you are basically correct in how this whole scenario played out. Only thing is this "kitchen remodeling company" is literally 2 guys. One does all the sales/drawings and the other takes the drawings and figures out what needs to be built/ordered, does the building and installing. Oh they one helper guy for the building/install. But the owner is the main builder installer. I definitely thought they were going to be a "one stop shop" but later learned that the customer has to handle the electric and plumbing because they are not licensed to.

The one thing I don't recall during the 4 hour long meeting is if I specifically said that the pantry cabinets needed to be built around the fridge, but to me that was given, as that is the nature of them! They are building them AROUND the fridge. Not being the design expert, was I supposed to know that when I look at a drawing of pantry cabinets around my fridge in 2D that I would expect them not to cover it in full? Not in my eyes.

Their initial "fix" was to pull out and install scribe molding that is used in a few other places in the kitchen that the backsplash tile would butt up against. I mentioned to KD and she said "absolutely not, they need to fix this without scribe molding". TBH, I don't know what it even looks like...

They keep asking me if I'm okay with their proposal to pull out to 25" but I just don't think I am. I was going to offer to split the "couple hundred dollars" and give them $100 to pull out 2.5" and make it right.

Had I known all the wealth of information I know now, I would have done things so differently. We have a townhouse where my mom is the "renter" and the kitchen could use a remodel... I would go about it so differently then. I actually tried to leave them last fall and even told them I wanted them to fire me, but it didn't work. I'm sure at this point they hate me. But oh well.

Oh and yes, I'm paying in the 10's of thousands for this kitchen.

Casey - here is info on fridge.

Keep in mind that they said they only use the specs for the fridge for width and height... lovely, right?

Funny thing is that this fridge has been an issue all along! I ordered the Bosch CD fridge but it was discontinued 5 months after I purchased and paid for it but apparently that didn't matter. So this wasn't my fridge of choice. However, cabinet guys had specs LONG before build.

If the cabinetmaker's designer did final drawings, and was given fridge model along with clients desire...then they are absolutely responsible. Doesn't sound like it will help.

Aside for others-

If you go off the reservation and hire an outside designer, get and pay for a complete job. If you just want a consultation, get it here.

2-our contract always includes a separate page that lists all sinks, appliances with specs, whatever else we designed around. Ask for clarity.

I read your post last night followed by the posts of the 3 professionals. I give you a lot of credit for explaining how this occurred & basically taking responsibility for the screw up. I agree with Jakuval that most remodeling companies - I can't call your guys professionals - would have tried to resolve this differently. Rebunky has successfully put my thoughts into words. I also think you should bite the bullet & pay to have it fixed correctly. Otherwise, you will feel angry every time you look at the frig.

The guy who is going to remind you - he is a jackass. That's putting it nicely.

So sorry you had to go through this. My KD carefully reviewed all installation diagrams and diagrams before finalizing key dimensions. She in fact insisted on the fridge specs and decision, since they vary so much. I then personally double checked them. We all still missed one measurement (due to bad templating instructions) and the KD still covered it. The installation spec, as @Sombreeuil is requesting, has proof of the required cabinet enclosure. My personal view is that a competent "custom" cabinet shop should know this and that depths should have been marked or referenced on the final drawings/orders you signed off on, if they indeed rely on their in-house "designer".

My CD fridge is in a 24" enclosure and is flush with no exposed sides (and has a trim kit installed). There are a few rare fridges that can do this, but it's very tight and my GC had to work to make it right. We could not afford the extra inch to make it easier, due to aisle widths. One side is bounded by a pantry the other by an upper/lower stack. Our second home has a ridiculous 12" fridge side panel -- it all could be far, far, worse, I tell you.

ETA -- I see you posted your model. That pretty clearly requires over 26" of depth. I might be concerned with the ventilation requirements --- other CD's usually ask for 1" or less.

So...I'm not saying this to freak you out, but give this frig the air it needs!!! We had this in kitchen I posted above. I liked it but the PLASTIC water line broke after five years (out of all warranties of course) and DH certain it was because of heat generated by compressor, just dried out. I'm sure it had nothing to do with the 10lbs of Golden Retreiver fur that always gathered under there. Like I said, not to freak you out, but they give those guidelines for a reason...

Ok. The fridge specs say the case depth w/o the door is 24 3/8" and back air clearance is 2". So that means they need to pull the two pantries out about 2 1/2".

Good catch cluelessinColorado. Btw, I always think your little picture is mine because they are the same color. :-)

I missed where the two donkeys said that "it's fine" to ignore proper air clearances in the back of the fridge. That might void any warranties if something goes wrong. I wouldn't do that.

I couldn't find a picture for you of what the scribe molding might look like, but I think it will look similar to what a front filler piece between cabinets looks like. I'm sure you've seen that. It will look fine. The trim piece when scribed should be tight to the wall and to the cabinet. The only part that will show is on the left pantry where countertop butts to it. Once things are set on the counters, and you start using your lovely kitchen, I think any tiny hairline joint will disappear from your mind forever. They also can fill the crack with a little caulking the color of the cabs and it will really go away.

I think your other kd probably said not to let them do that hoping they'd make things right and rebuild the cabinets deeper for you. That's what they should do, but since they are two greedy donkeys on power trips, they won't. Let them finish the install, send them on their merry way, and then write a scathing review anywhere and everywhere online you can. Starting here on GW. Keep us posted ok?

LOL rebunky! You can come see my one purple hydrangea (if I'm lucky enough to get another) and I'll visit your purple ocean sunset :) fair trade no?

Why are the cabinet builders only wanting to pull the pantry cabinets out a fraction of what is needed? If they used a "filler" piece as rebunky suggests, that sounds like a better solution than having the sides of the fridge showing. Someone posted above, "It's not a solution if it doesn't solve the problem." True that.

I truly appreciate all of the responses! It means so much to me to you all as a sounding board.

They know it needs 2" of clearance but told me that "no one does that". They even called GE to ask them about it! (GE said it is what makes them the most energy efficient). That's why they think 1" is acceptable.

I just sent them both an email telling them I want it fixed correctly and said that we can work something out.... whether that means I pay for some or all, I don't know and frankly, at this point I'm just so over it!

However, this leads to a problem on the oven side - if they don't go back and bump that cabinet out, the counter will not die into the side cabinet like it will on the pantry side. Wish me luck with that. The guys must seriously hate me. They should have fired me when I told them I wanted them to months ago.

I think I would take GE at their word "It is designed to install flush with standard 24" cabinets." I believe it should be no different from other cabinet-depth designs, or else they could not market them. Why would they mass produce a fridge 2" deeper that all of the competition?

I have to bet that the 2" gap is "baked in" with spacers. Haven't you seen the backside of a fridge? The cooling grid thing is already spaced out.

Anyway, my Jenn air Cabinet depth FD fridge fit as planned, flush with 24' cabinets.

Let's not overthink this with a defeatist attitude.

Casey

Casey, when you say baked in, are you referring to how microwaves have that plastic protuberance that doesnt let you push it against the wall? Trying to remember what the back of our GE CAfe frig looked like but can't. We have counter depth Jenn Air in new (old) house in a 25" cab, but I had nothing to do with that! Think that there's plenty of space.

Yes, exactly. I would wait until it actually does not fit as described before finding the appropriate scapegoat.

So far it's "According to my interpretation of the specs, it will not fit".

What carries more weight is "When we went to install it, it did not fit".

Why on earth would GE make their "Cabinet Depth" fridge stick out 2" more than every other Cabinet Depth fridge on the planet?

Casey

It may also help to recess the wall outlet behind the fridge as those plugs are pretty substantial. We did that for ours on the rec of our KD. It did help!

It looks like the black sides of the refrigerator are still exposed in the picture posted above with the 24 inch deep cabinet and I think that is what the OP wants to avoid. I have a KA counterdepth and it needed the extended cabinet side panels to completely cover the sides and allow for the required 1 inch of clearance in the back. KA advertises their fridge as "designed to give a built-in look." There is also the issue of having something for the edges of the countertop overhang to abut against. IMO, it looks better to have the overhang abut against a cabinet than to have it sticking out with an exposed side.

Cabinet depth doesn't mean anything, you need to ask whether they mean the depth of the case, case with door or case with door and handles. The doors stick out because you didn't do custom and the industry wants a clear dividing line between what is custom $$$ and what is not and they go far out of their way to ensure that the line is maintained. The cabinet maker should have been aware of the specs for the fridge and left space accordingly, which it appears he did. BUT OP did not understand that the doors would not end up looking flush. This was not a true custom job $$$ (even though this was an expensive Fridge, a true built in fridge would have cost around $4,000 more)... The GE website clearly lists both the case depth, case+door depth and the total depth, it also has a clear drawing showing that the doors will back into the counter exactly as they are, and it tells you to be sure to account for any countertop overhang.... I can understand that everyone wants to sympathize with you but I really think that you were in charge of the project you are the first person responsible for this "problem."

If you add space around the fridge and pull the lower cabinets forward it may end up changing your countertop depth and you may need more countertop material, countertops are another big money vacuum, adding more to the side panels will probably always look like a workaround to you but no one else may notice.

There is no extra space built into the back to account for the 2" circulation. I can't/won't specify installation on any appliance that does not comply with written specs. I will not assume responsibility for the warranty on my end (or fight with the building inspector)

Attached a quickie-indicates possible solution and shows what we do for standard installation. Sides are hidden, doors will stick out (except for specific built-ins), counters die into cabinet side/panel.

The OP did say above that she didn't expect a truly "built-in" look and that she expected the doors to stick out, just not the sides which are not stainless steel. MarkJames & Co.'s solution looks great.

Update: They are going to bump out the pantry cabinets 2.5". This means they need to order a sheet of veneer from Conestoga. I asked if we could split that and they said "no, we don't want to pay for any of it". A "couple hundred" in the scheme of this whole project is nothing, especially if it's going to be done correctly.

As for my wall oven side on the other side - they can not bump that out at all now so on that side the counter will not die not the wall oven cabinet. (Messes up corner cabinet, all other cabinets next to it have to come out, delays counters, etc).

I definitely learned a lesson - one of MANY during this whole process - document everything and never assume that because they are "custom cabinet makers" that they know to build around something!

What would this "custom" maker do when they saw that your fridge was hanging out too far? Do they not care how their work looks?

My KD brought a few people to see my kitchen after it was done because he was so pleased with his (and the contractor's) work.

Their indifference is appalling.

They think it's more than acceptable for the fridge to stick out. I actually went to their website and the 2 non built in fridges on they show stick out!!!

Funny too.. .this is on their website for their "Satisfaction Guaranteed":

Any potential home renovation comes with a variety of unknown factors. At the outset, it can all be a little overwhelming. So at XXXXX, we’ve staked our reputation on making sure our creations exceeds you expectations.

To be certain of that, we sign a Satisfaction Guaranteed Contract. Basically, it states that the project isn’t done until you say it is. We are so certain that we’ll bring your dreams to life that we’ll put it in writing.

Every project has our name on it. And – and you’ll see throughout this website – our next customer is often a referral from our last one. So if we’re privileged to work with you, we hope you’re pass the word to your friends.

And the best way to do that is to make sure you’re more than satisfied.

Practigal, if you look at the first post I made in this thread, I added some sketches of OP's basic layout. You'll see where the cabinets that have countertop (range side) do not need to be involved to fix the fridge issue. The countertop wouldn't need to be made deeper in this case, since those cabinets would not need to be pulled out from the wall. It is only the two tall pantries flanking the fridge that need to be pulled out. The countertop would die into the side of the one pantry. Hope that makes sense. :-)

Erica, I understand that you knew the SS doors and handles of your fridge would stick out. It is only the black sides of the fridge box or case you wanted covered. It a no brainier to me with a custom shop. I cannot believe they thought it was acceptable to stick out that far. Oh well, what is important is that it is getting fixed, it isn't an expensive fix, and it will all be water under the bridge soon.

I also wanted to reassure you that it will look fine that the oven cab is not pulled out. That will not look like a mistake at all with the countertop hitting those cabinets differently. The pantry/fridge section bumped out and the rest of the L perimeter cabinets regular depth is something I see done all the time. Do not give it a second thought. It is going to be gorgeous!

Jackuval, great illustration!

A "couple hundred" in the scheme of this whole project is nothing, especially if it's going to be done correctly.

Of course you can hold back that last small amount for the "fix" and let them take you to small claims court, while at the same time making sure to trash their reputation.

They sound like scum bags and I bet if you posted on yelp you'd find more and more unhappy customers. If they treat one person poorly like that, you can bet they are treating others poorly.

That's a big bummer Erica L, sorry. I can see why they don't think it's all their fault, but at least splitting the cost of making it right would seem to be a wise and ethical business decision. A couple hundred split would seem a small price at this point for them to make a customer happy. Sounds like some huge egos at play.

I hope that when these 2 men have delivered/installed everything that you paid for, that you will come back and add their names and company name to this post. A mention on GW/Houzz will show up in searches for years to come and will help other potential customers to avoid them or at least to work with them knowing all their limitations.

Erica, I take it they didn't sign that "satisfaction guaranteed" contract in your case?

"Of course you can hold back that last small amount for the 'fix' and let them take you to small claims court"

Two little words: "mechanic's lien". You do not want to go there.

Interesting ... I took a look at their website and they really seem to be pushing the whole "total customization" thing. I guess if you are going to promise total customization and complete customer satisfaction on your website, you should at least make an effort to deliver.

You're going to have to pull the cabinet over the fridge (add blocking) as well as the pantry cabinets. And redo the crown if they already cut it.

For any future readers of this thread, RUN if your "custom" cabinet maker talks about ordering parts from different sources. He is not a cabinet maker. He certainly isn't "custom".

Jellytoast, I didn't see a link to their website, just the quote from Erica. I'd love to check it out too. How'd you find it?

Just out of curiousity I noticed on Erica's other thread, http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/3686384/cabinets-have-arrived

that they had used some sort of plastic looking legs under the cabinets. Is that normal? I think IKEA cabs use something like that, but I've never seen them in person. Just curious if any of the pros have seen those used on "custom" built base cabinets. And notice the quotation marks on the word custom? I think we have determined they are NOT!

Erica, as GreenDesigns mentioned, do double check that your over the fridge cab and crown is dealt with as well. I'd make sure you are there watching like a hawk on the day they fix this.

Yep, mechanic's lien came to mind.

They are pulling the entire pantry section with upper cabinets out 2.5". Everything will apparently look deeper than they really are... But my fridge will be covered.

Under the cabinets are what they use to level them. It's two pieces of wood with some mechanism between them that they can adjust from the front to get level.

My GC joked that after seeing what they are doing (just building bases) he needs to get in that business!

Hi,

This is a closeup of my Jenn Air Cabinet Depth model, the previous photo seemed to generate a response that the black cabinet sides showed; no, it is the black weatherstrip seals between the door and the carcase.

Beuhl just posted this slideshow on a similar thread about building in a fridge. It is awesome!

http://s182.photobucket.com/user/Buehl/slideshow/2008-2009%20Remodel/Kitchen/220%20How%20to%20Build%20In%20a%20Refrigerator

The other thread is here in case you want to check it out Erica.

http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/3701842/counter-depth-fridge-manual-specifies-2-clearance-behind-fridge?n=10

Casey, just curious, why the weatherstrip?

On a positive note, you've gotten them past not fixing this because it "would mess up their schedule." This kind of stuff keeps me awake at night. It's worth a couple of hundred bucks to get this fixed correctly & move on with your life. Big pat on the back for you - and to all the professionals & GWers for their advice.

Rebunky, I Googled a portion of their "guarantee" ...

"To be certain of that, we sign a Satisfaction Guaranteed Contract. Basically, it states that the project isn’t done until you say it is. We are so certain that we’ll bring your dreams to life that we’ll put it in writing."

"Why the weatherstrip?"

I guess Jenn air thought it best to use some kind of seal to keep the cold air inside the fridge.

Casey

"Of course you can hold back that last small amount for the 'fix' and let them take you to small claims court"

"Two little words: "mechanic's lien". You do not want to go there."

Their own guarantee says "the project isn't done until you say it's done." If they don't mean it, they probably shouldn't say it.

Casey LOL! For some reason to me it looked like the weatherstrip connected from fridge case over and stuck onto the wood panel surround. Boy, I really need new glasses. :-)

Jellytoast, thanks.

If the fridge was flush with the cabinets, the doors wouldn't open. All of you seem to miss that.

A cabinet depth fridge is usually cabinet depth UP TO THE DOORS. Where would those doors go when fully open??

That is a standard depth however if you requested the added depth on paper spicificly adding 1 inch the added cost would be a lot.

Some refrigerator doors will not open if it's too deep or too

Post a photo of the copy of the approved plan they were supposed to build to. Does it show deeper sides with the adjacent counters butting into them? Enough room for 24.375 plus the 2 inches behind so that the sides of the refrigerator BOX can be installed flush with the front of the cabinetry?

Normally a cabinet shop would make this allowance or at least go over the options and differences. But if someone else did the design and it was adhered to, you don't have much to stand on.

Also, is the opening the correct height because the hinges not fitting into the opening (like the photo above) can keep it from going back as well?

Did you by chance consider another refrigerator that would fit properly? That might be the easiest and most economical way to address the issue. Switch them up and sell the first one.

And to the guy that commented about "custom shops" ordering components, this is a common practice throughout the industry. It's very rare to find a cabinet shop that builds every part of a cabinet anymore and as long as what is ordered is of acceptable quality and fits, what's the problem?

LOL.. Oldest problem in the world..

I tell my clients, INTEGRATED is the definition of what you are trying to achieve.. and if the refrigerator doesn't cost about $8000 and up, it will not be INTEGRATED..

Thats not really what shes saying. She said the refrigerator box itself is out past the adjacent cabinetry. She didnt' seem concerned about the doors themselves being so.