Does seem unexpected but this tree is pretty consistent about not doing well outside of its native area - I wouldn't worry about whether it can take your heat or not, it's quite unlikely you can grow it anyway.

We almost don't see it at all even here. Whereas noble firs are common as dirt in local plantings.

I think I planted mine around early August. It's taken a little heat and did OK. The guy from the nursery didn't seem to think I'd have any trouble but after reading about it from multiple sources I'm pretty skeptical.

It didn't cost much at all so I figured it's worth the risk.

"A couple sources say these are killed if it gets over 86F."

That's ludicrous, the record highs in the Sierra Nevada go well above that. And all of the red firs don't suddenly die. Take Tahoe City at 6200': record high is 94F. Altitude range of the species is give as about 4600-8500'. Of course, there could be various other reasons it won't grow outside its native range.

FWIW I have finally obtained a western fir grafted onto Abies firma, so time will tell whether the rapid decline of almost all of them on the east coast south of about Boston (excepting Abies concolor, which merely *slowly* declines LOL) is completely attributable to the roots not surviving warm nights and wet soils, or something else.

Nice. Looks great.

Looks great

Also looks like A. lasiocarpa - I'd like closer, confirming views before it's etched in stone that an example of A. magnifica was growing well there.

I'm quite sure it is magnifica.( i'll check it out tomorrow though) I do have a lasiocarpa in the area but not as nice. In any event I have 2 more doing well. another at 6' as is this one, as well as a 15' specimen which I've grown for 12 years.

True firs often grow for many years in cultivated settings and then get spoiled by bugs or blights - we have such examples just about everywhere you turn in some neighborhoods here (unhappy spruces are very common also). But we don't have the cold winters these apparently need to kill bugs off.

It's Abies lasiocarpa showed here.

From this distance the second one looks structurally like A. lasiocarpa* also. Foliage and habit of A. magnifica is different.

*A. bifolia using the new, still evolving classification that splits A. lasiocarpa into two species

http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=1&taxon_id=100024

The smaller plants came from Hopper Brothers who have one of the finest selections of Abies available.

It's not Abies magnifica. this cultivar don't come from Abies magnifica, he look Abies lasiocarpa cv ? "Nana" ?

Notice the needle lengths and shapes, how the foliage is pectinate on the bottom (needles tending not to point downward, so that the sprays appear flat underneath) in Clement's close up foliage shot.

Although I'd like to see those cones before I ruled out A. procera on that one!

Anyway, with those thick looking, apparently uniformly colored (no visible banding) needles your close up shot looks like it could even be something like A. concolor 'Compacta'.

My procera are just at right of magnifica. Here the bract scales are not visible.

Saw some of the "Abies magnifica 'Nana'" at a garden center here today. It amounts to an Abies lasiocarpa var. arizonica 'Compacta' without the silver markings that make that cultivar appealing. It is so similar one of them at the nursery got placed with a couple of the 'Compacta', apparently by mistake - despite being labeled as Abies magnifica 'Nana'. This close proximity was quite convenient.

Katsura's pic does indeed look exactly like the Abies magnifica 'Nana' in commerce. I have one myself, and it looks exactly the same. And I agree that it's likely Abies concolor or lasiocarpa, or at least has these in its makeup, not Abies magnifica.

Still, would be nice to know the origin of this 'Nana' plant, and how it got labeled as an A. magnifica.

I suppose it's possibly of hybrid origin, but from what I've found, no one has ever found evidence that A. magnifica hybridizes with A. concolor (or lasiocarpa).

As far as heat tolerance goes, mine (on firma rootstock) died quickly here in Atlanta. It didn't even make it through the spring (this was several years ago). I can't say if it was heat, humidity, or something else which caused its demise. Incidentally, the only western North American fir I've been able to keep alive is an Abies lasiocarpa.

interesting...A. lasiocarpa is the one I'd be the most skeptical of, even on A. firma. Are you saying you have an A. lasiocarpa on it's own roots in GA? That is surprising unless you are at > 2500' elevation.

BTW I don't think we know for sure all "on firma" really are, unless we see some remaining foliage on the rootstock with the telltale lack of any fragrance. Mistakes do happen.

The paler or more silvery versions of sub-alpine fir that tend to attract horticultural interest - as in the development of named selections - are examples of arizonica (cork fir) from the southern part of the range. As are the reflexa type of limber pine (or other botanical interpretation) such as the frequently planted 'Vanderwolf's Pyramid', which apparently was selected in New Jersey. The reflexa has been seen by friends growing wild in Mexico, in a rainy area. So with both trees it is not quite the same native environment as for examples of the ~same species in the northern Rockies and P.N.W. Even in the Southwestern desert states there is a summer monsoon effect where what precipitation they do get tends to fall in summer rather than winter. In contrast to the general pattern for the western US of rainfall being concentrated in the winter. In complete opposition to the summer wet eastern US.

I want to clarify that I don't know for a fact that the cork fir gets a different rainfall pattern than the northern versions of the same species, just that I thought it might be possible.

I also have an A. lasiocarpa (not on firma, prob. on Canaan) here in IN, and it's doing quite well after 4 years. And yes, in general, I find that A. lasiocarpa does better than the other western firs (except concolor). Embothrium's hypothesis about rainfall sounds plausible to me. I also think that the species' broad range means that it does adapt better to the fluctuations of temperature in summer and winter. At least in the interior varieties (i.e., bifolia and arizonica), there's a lot of winter cold (and *dry* winter cold), and in fact some summer heat even high in the mountains—at least more than you'd get with a coastal location, I'd wager.

So far, my best guess for what killed my A. magnifica has been the dry cold and frozen ground in winter—something which it seems doesn't occur much in its native habitat.

My lasiocarpa ('Glacier' - I don't know if that's a southern range one or not) is on (purported) firma rootstock. It's been in the ground for four years, and it doesn't grow much, but it still looks good. The only firs I've had survive summer in the ground on their own roots are A. firma and A. koreana, and the koreana passed away its second year. I have a couple of koreana seedlings in pots that have done well, and I may try planting them out in an appropriate spot at some point. My fir failures happened mostly in my early days - I don't even try firs anymore unless they have firma rootstock (the odd koreana excepted). But firma is certainly not a cure-all. Even with compatible rootstock, the western firs fail me.

A. lasiocarpas seedlings from Treehaven died the fastest for me ;-). A. grandis were next. I did have a very wet spell, IIRC it was the June when we got well over 10 inches of rain a few years ago. Maybe they would have survived with a grittier potting mix. Same period killed a Correa I'd bought in Norcal a few years earlier.

It has a large range so maybe I got seeds from the summer-drier northern end and not AZ. They were not glaucous.

Annoyed that nobody will graft pure species onto pure species. I would love a straight A. grandis on A. firma but my emails to the PNW grafters were ignored. Porterhowse would have been willing to do back in the day, but alas they are gone. A. grandis foliage must be in the top 5 conifer foliar scents; though Embo tipped me off that my Thuja koraiensis are pretty nice too. Would not have bothered to smell them otherwise! I guess when they are big it will release on its own but for now I have to crush the needles to smell it.

davidrt28, soggy soil finally killed my 10 yr old concolor fir last autumn. Firs will not prosper on my bottomland site w/often wet soil and common May killing-frosts (it's a frost hollow).

Here's my biggest question: WHERE is there a source for either abies magnifica or procera? There are plenty of online suppliers with seeds but I don't want seeds.

I got a couple of proceras from Porky Tree Farm in MI last spring and they've done O.K. But now they are sold out and have no plans to get anymore. They have also carried magnifica in the past too but I was told their source for "hard to get" western conifers went out of business. BUMMER!

As for "Conifer Josh" I do not believe it was the cold that killed your fir tree. Red firs grown near the timberline in the Sierra Nevada Mountains where temps some times approach -30F°.

What I was told is that it's the hot, humid nights in the Midwest that really get to them. (I, too am in Indiana)

-Fred M. Cain

Forestfarm sometimes has seedlings of various western firs. I'm sure at some point, they must have offered all of them, but any given year might only have a couple.

Dear Mr. Cain,

I, too, have had trouble finding red fir, especially. However, you could check CalForest nurseries. They're wholesale, but if you ask very nicely :) they might be willing to send you a small amount (10-25, maybe). I've contacted them in the past.

As for my Abies magnifica, I have no doubt summer heat would have been hard on it too. But in my case, it was definitely the winter, not the summer, that did it in. It's true that in the Sierra they experience cold, but again, the difference is that's nearly always with thick snowpack, so it's quite possible the ground underneath is not frozen. Which is very different from the 0 degree weather we get in Indiana with (often) little snow, strong, dry winds, bright sunshine, and frozen ground. I don't think it's the cold per se, but the desiccation that causes problem for red fir outside its native range.

Best,

Re Forestfarm:

Yeah, they have very few Abies right now, and their selection has vastly diminished in the last few years. From my conversation with them, it doesn't sound as if that's going to change, either.

Conifer Josh,

Well, all I can say is that you are most definitely not the first person to have trouble raising abies magnifica.

I was on another group or forum where a guy from eastern Washington told me that he tried growing it too and had trouble. He recommended to me that if I really want to do that, then I should try abies procera. By all appearances they look almost the same anyways. He did and had much better luck. I’ve got four of them growing now and the “jury is still out” on how well they will do. Two of ‘em look pretty good and the other two just so-so.

Trouble is, abies procera has also become hard to find. I found a couple of western nurseries that have it but they are small, “band” pots whatever that is.

Welker’s nursery has a good selection of conifers including firs. But my problem with them is although their stuff looked GREAT when I got it, just about everything I got from them died later and I do not know why. All four abies magnifica specimens died, two of the abies procera died later and even a couple of pseudotsuga menziesii specimens didn’t quite make it. Pseudotsuga menziesii normally does really well here so I don’t know what the issue was. (One died from the top down but later resprouted and might make it afterall).

I have wondered about a fungus is Welker’s planting soil that might do little harm in California but in the hot, humid Midwestern Dog Days – it had a field day.

Best Regards.

Fred M. Cain,

Topeka, IN

Coniferjosh,

You had stated that "It's true that in the Sierra they experience cold, but again, the difference is that's nearly always with thick snowpack, so it's quite possible the ground underneath is not frozen."

Actually, abies magnifica can be found growing near the timberline in the Sierras where temperatures can sometimes reach -40°F. As for snowpack, winter precip in the far west, especially in California, can be extremely erratic. Twenty feet on the ground one year then nearly none in some other year, so this too, cannot be the complete explanation.

I think I may have found an answer to this issue. Although the hot, humid nights are hard indeed on western conifers, the real issue might turn out to be mid-winter warm ups.

According to a study done by Jones & Cregg "Screening Exotic Firs for the Midwestern United States", they found that some trees, especially western conifers, tend to lose cold hardiness following mid winter warm spells. A tree that is cold hardy to -40°F might only be hardy to around 5 or 10° ABOVE following several days in mid winter with temps in the 60's and 70's. Unfortunately, it does that kind of stuff around here. It could happen in the Sierra too, that's not say it's impossible, but my best guess is that a circumstance like that would be extremely rare.

Best Regards,

Fred M. Cain,

Topeka, IN

Fred,

Yes, I agree midwinter warmups may be a factor, but I still think snowpack is significant. So much snow typically falls in the snow forests where red fir grows, that even years with lower snowfall often have some on the ground, I'd wager. And the real question isn't whether snowpack in the Sierras is erratic, but whether trees that experience extreme cold do so when there is little snow. From what I know, years that have little snowpack also tend to be warmer, so I'm not sure this helps answer the question.

And in any case, I doubt temps even at high elevations in the Sierra compare to the regular extremes of cold we get in the Midwest. Especially since red fir only rarely grows anywhere near treeline, and generally is much lower, below the subalpine forests.

Best,

Interestingly, also, I planted two red firs in the ground last fall. Both survived fine through the winter. But this past winter was a warm one, and in particular the ground basically never froze. And on days with cold, I shielded them from the sun.

Not the complete story, but it seems to have helped.

For what it's worth, my Abies magnifica, grafted on A. firma rootstock, didn't even survive its first winter here. It definitely wasn't cold or heat that killed it.

Josh,

I want to say that I have made a rather puzzling and somewhat intriguing discovery. Last year I bought two abies procera four-year transplanted bare-root stock trees from Porky Farms in northern Michigan. That is what I ordered, anyways. One did really well last summer while the other was rather weak. I chalked that up to transplant shock. Now they both look really good and the weaker of the two looks a lot better and I think it’s gonna make it.

But here’s the surprise. The leaves or needles on the two specimens do not look the same. The leaves on the more vigorous of the two look exactly like the needles on two other abies procera that I’d gotten from Joe Welker’s nursery the prior year. But the needles on the other Porky Farms tree look different. They are more curled upwards.

Hmmmn, I thought to myself; that brings back memories of fir trees that I’d seen in the Sierra Nevada Mountains years ago. Could this one tree possibly be an abies magnifica sent in error? I have discovered through my own personal experience that nurseries can and do make mistakes at times.

At the time that I placed my order, Porky Farms was showing that they no longer had any abies magnifica left in stock. But maybe they did have one – just one – after all! We’ll see. In another growing season or two any differences will become more obvious.

I have had some correspondence with that guy Bert Cregg who participated in the study on growing exotic conifers in the Midwest that I’d cited in my earlier post. He told me that both abies procera and abies grandis can do well in western Michigan where they get planted not far from the shores of Lake Michigan. That’s “snow belt” country. Conditions can sometimes mimic the orographic snowfall in the Sierras. This would help support your snowpack theory. We did not discuss abies magnifica but I would assume it might be the same situation. There is actually somewhat of a fine line between abies procera and a. magnifica.

Glad to hear that your two red firs made it through the winter! That’s no small feat ‘cause I’ve had very bad luck planting anything in the fall be it western conifers, eastern shade trees or fruit trees. I like late March/early April the best.

Here’s something that you might wanna try that I’ve tried with some success. I took a 4’ X 4’ sheet of OSB board and staked it to the windward side of the trees. That at least will keep the wind off if it gets down to -20°F. Cregg told me that the wind is definitely a factor, too. And to this I added a thick mulch layer of dead pine and fir needles.

My theory and hope is that if that’s done for a few years until the tree becomes established with deep roots, it might be able to make it on its own without the windbreak. There is no proof of this but I’m willing to try. It worked GREAT last winter, but, like you said, it was mild.

Best Regards,

Fred M. Cain,

Topeka, IN

Dean said that " For what it's worth, my Abies magnifica, grafted on A. firma rootstock, didn't even survive its first winter here. It definitely wasn't cold or heat that killed it. "

Dean, from my experience, and I've planted lots of trees, transplanted plugs, pots and bare root stock can die for all sorts of reasons. I've even lost eastern white pine seedlings that normally do really well around here.

One thing I found out is that there is a certain type of symbiotic fungus that needs to be in the soil that helps conifers absorb nutrients. But trees die for many other reasons. Last summer I lost of few seedlings to moles. Moles can root around the seedlings and dry out the roots. Over watering or under watering can also be an issue. And, finally, it seems like you can appear to do "everything right" and they might still die leaving you wondering just what happened.

Regads,

FMC

Fred,

Very interesting, thank you! Yes, I used to live in W. MI, and agree it would be a likely place for success in the Midwest.

Thanks for the OSB idea. Will have to try it!

Josh

Josh,

Question: You stated that you started two red firs last fall ( I think it was two).

But my question is, *WHERE* did you get them? I don't know anyone who has any.

Regards,

Fred M. Cain