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liv2tell

How would you increase square footage of this home...

liv2tell
8 years ago

I am not as familiar with standard room sizes and I know the square footage of this plan (1246) is on the smaller side. I'm thinking our goal overall is around 1700 square feet.

Where would you increase size? I know that one corner is crazy at the bottom right is crazy - we won't indent the structure like that.

Is the kitchen crazy small? I don't want a formal dining room so all I care about is enough room for a table that can seat up to 8 people and a pretty chandelier hanging over it. I love the open flow.

I was thinking, rather than a basement (we don't have many of those around here), the stairs go up to a second level where we could carve out a couple of rooms with sloped ceilings (and forgo some or all of the cathedral ceilings on the bottom.)

I'm up for any suggestions. I am pretty sure I know what I want but I would love to hear what others would do to increase space in this home.

LInk: http://www.dongardner.com/house-plan/503/the-ryley

Comments (39)

  • JDS
    8 years ago

    This looks like a house plan from the 50's. I know because I've renovated a lot of them to relieve the poor zoning, tight bedrooms and poor access to the backyard. There is nothing special about this plan so you should consider searching for 1700 s.f. plans or hiring a design professional. Good luck.

  • liv2tell
    Original Author
    8 years ago
    I love this plan and searched through hundreds before finding this one that felt just right for what I wanted. I was just asking how much someone might increase dimensions of the rooms to make the house larger over all. Thanks for your opinion but I'm in love with this this!
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  • millworkman
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    You really can't just go add 30% to a floor plan without looking at the exterior elevations as well. It may work on the floor plan and may not even be possible on the exterior. It all really needs to be developed together. As JDS mentions you really need to look for a different plan or sit with an architect.

  • speaktodeek
    8 years ago

    Adding six feet top to bottom would make a big difference. Add two of them to the kitchen and master, making the kitchen 10 x 13, the master 14 x 13 (or you could make the master 14 x 12 and add the foot to the master bathroom), then add two feet to each of the bedrooms, making the middle one 13 x 12 and the bottom one 11 x 13. You would also have four feet added to the dining/living length which would give you a nice space for an extendable table. (Effectively dining 14 x 13 and living stays the same which is a good size already.)

  • JDS
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    The current layout accommodates a very small footprint by making compromises: locating the path from the front door through the living room, entering the bedrooms off the front entry, omitting a mudroom, omitting a side entrance off the driveway, leaving a big empty space in the kitchen and putting the laundry in a closet, If you pushed the exterior walls out 2 or 3 ft you could make the footprint what you want it to be but you would still have all the compromises from the original layout that would no longer be necessary. If that's OK with you, buy the plan, get some tracing paper and an architect's scale and do it.

  • cpartist
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    JDS is an architect and knows of what he speaks. I'm not but I'm going to agree with JDS for the following reasons:

    1. From the front you walk into your living room. Ok that's not a big problem, but where do you put coats?

    2. Your living room right now is 14 x 15. Um no, the usable room is actually 11 x 15 because you need room to walk through and around.

    3. Bedroom 3 has the closet on the outside wall which is prime real estate for windows for light and for cross ventilation.

    4. From the entry to those two bedrooms, you can practically see into the bathroom.

    5. To get from the garage to the house you walk right through the middle of your kitchen. So if someone is working in the kitchen, you're potentially bumping into them as you walk past.

    6. To go out the back, the only way is through the screened porch, yet you have no mud room, so if you're out back doing anything dirty, it means the person will be walking through your kitchen and dining room with muddy shoes, or will have to leave them in the screened porch. Not so bad if you're in FL or another warm climate, but not fun if you are in a snowy area.

    7. The whole house has only 4 closets and not even a linen closet, coat closet or utility closet. So where will your coats go? Where will your vacuum, extra paper towels, brooms, mops go?

    8. The garage will block light coming from the left into your dining/great room.

    9. The breakfast bar will cut into your dining room area.

    10. Bedroom 2 will hear the toilet flushing every single time it is flushed.

    11. The master bedroom will hear the toilet flush every time it is flushed.

    12. Most importantly this house will be very dark.

  • cpartist
    8 years ago

    Oh and where will you put laundry that needs to be sorted?

  • PRO
    Virgil Carter Fine Art
    8 years ago

    As JDS points out, this plan has many unfortunate compromises. For example, the circulation from the front door, through the living and dining area to get to the kitchen and MBR make furniture placement problematic. If you can't visualize this, get some tracing paper and lay out your current living and dining furniture in the plan and see if you can even accommodate your furnishings. When thinking of room sizes for kitchen and bedrooms, 12 X 12 is a reasonable standard for an "average" sized usable space. Smaller spaces can work, if carefully laid out, and larger spaces allow for more varied mixed uses. Good luck with your project.

  • just_janni
    8 years ago

    If you can add square footage, then this compact a plan isn't the right one. You'd probably better off making a larger plan SMALLER, rather than trying to large this. The flow and storage is so compromised because they were trying to cram this into a small footprint making rooms bigger won't fix the omissions.

  • chicagoans
    8 years ago

    Think about the things you love in this plan, and then think about why. Is it because there's a screened porch? So put that on your list. Is it because the garage is separate and not sticking out on the front of the house? Put that on the list. etc.

    Then focus on efficiency, not just size. And work with an architect to get your wishes in a plan that suits your lot in the size you want. I think it's great that you're thinking small, and I've seen many recommendations for books on this forum, such as those by Sarah Susanka (she has floor plans, too) and 'What Not To Build'.

  • weedyacres
    8 years ago

    I'd move the back wall out 6', enlarging the master bedroom, kitchen, screened porch and garage. (feasibility of this depends on elevations, as JDS pointed out)


    Then turn the screened-in porch into a mudroom/laundry room/utility room.

  • liv2tell
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    Thank you all for your thoughts. If you had any idea how small of a space we have been living in for the past several years with three pets and one toddler, and could see how amazingly we've made it work... well anyway a little personal background always helps put choices people make into perspective. You never realize how much stuff and space you really don't need until you don't have it.

    What I love most about this plan is the seamless, open flow from kitchen, dining, to living. I see a lot of more modern plans having an open feel but they still include a formal dining room and the shape of the three (kitchen/dining/living) is not the rectangle "one big room" feel. Not for all I suppose but it's what I love and have searched and searched for in a plan. I drew my own floor plan months back and it was extremely close to this but mine had a lot of wasted space.

    Personally, with my living experiences in both large and small spaces, and our budget, I find formal dining rooms and mud rooms a waste of space. I can see where they or at least one is nice to have but I currently have neither and would rather spend my money on other parts of my home.

    I like that the washer and dryer are tucked away in a closet. My washer and dryer don't need a room to themselves - when it's laundry time I open the doors and do the work. Clothes are folded on a bed. Dirty clothes are tucked away in cleverly disguised hampers in bedrooms.

    The second thing I love most is the screened porch. Again, the personal background would help one understand. I have pets and always plan to have pets and even more pets. This is their space to enjoy fresh air, sights and sounds of outdoors in a safe space. This porch will also serve as a place to kick off shoes if needed. A buffer zone between outdoors and inside without using my heated floor space for a mudroom.

    The kitchen is the heart of my home and I look forward to greeting my loved ones in my kitchen and sending them off from there as well.

    All of that can be argued. It's all subjective.

    Points on things like storage are of course valid. We have ideas and have sketched over this plan a bit for solutions. Like a pantry, and bumping out a space where the front door is for a small foyer to include a wardrobe locker style nook.

    My question was really just how to enlarge the rooms a bit as far actual number dimensions go.

    We will have additional space upstairs and attic/storage space on a second level above the garage which could be converted to whatever we want later on.

    Thanks for your thoughts everyone! Saying it is from the 50s is not a bad thing to me, haha!

  • zorroslw1
    8 years ago

    One thing, they didn't have vaulted ceilings in the 50s. What doesn't work for one person may be just perfect for another.

  • PRO
    Mark Bischak, Architect
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    Draw it at 3/8"=1'-0" then dimension it as if it were 1/4"=1'-0".

  • PRO
    Mark Bischak, Architect
    8 years ago

    Another way would be to hire someone to correct the layout flaws and pay them by the square foot.

  • cpartist
    8 years ago

    If you had any idea how small of a space we have been living in for the past several years with three pets and one toddler, and could see how amazingly we've made it work

    Just a thought. Your toddler will be growing and so will what your toddler needs and/or wants. Sports equipment, larger clothes, etc. However having said that, I'm all for building only what you need and like you, I have no formal dining room. I never use one, and never plan on using one.

    I like what JDS did. He gave you more space and an extra closet. I would still consider even more storage space if I were you. If you don't need a mudroom, that's fine. I don't have one but then again, I live in FL and we're retirees. (Well DH is a retiree. I'll never retire since I'm an artist.)

    Additionally do either of you have hobbies? Work from home? If so, where do you plan on doing that work, hobby, etc?

  • liv2tell
    Original Author
    8 years ago
    I really like what JDS did, too. I plan on forgoing the cathedral ceilings in favor of extra space upstairs - maybe a couple of rooms with sloped ceilings. That's where I want my office and a playroom or "overflow" I suppose. The second level may be unfinished initially, however.

    In addition to that, we plan on an attic above the garage to use for storage. (I have a lot of Christmas decorations and I save a lot of keepsakes.) Years down the road it would be possible to convert into a retreat or something... That is kinda my husband's zone.

    One thing that has jumped out at me is this: although the master and middle bedroom (where our son will be) are close in distance, the doors are far apart. If only our bedroom doors could face each other... Maybe I could move his closet and nudge the washer/dryer somehow...
  • liv2tell
    Original Author
    8 years ago
    Also, I live in Alabama. Not much winter or heavy duty clothing/gear/snow debris to worry about. (In regards to a mudroom.) If we step in mud or something I'll have a spot to kick shoes (aka flip flops mostly) off in the screened porch or next to the front door if we come in that way, but I imagine mostly just guests will use our front door.
  • MsLindley
    8 years ago

    I haven't read all the posts, so forgive me if I'm repeating something. If this was my plan I would move the screen porch onto the back of the home. The current screen porch I would make into a mudroom/utility room and maybe steal a foot or two of it for the kitchen. Also by moving the washer and dryer out of the hall, it would free up some room in the dining or master bath area.

  • JDS
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    Expanding the footprint 3ft on all sides is just a rough start at redesigning your house to have more space so I didn't try to tune the space much. The big things should always be designed before the little timings.

    Since the middle bedroom got 3 ft wider and 2 ft longer, it can be made 3 ft narrower and a back hall could be added as shown below. The laundry could be placed under the stair with doors into the back hall and hopefully windows could be added in the bathrooms. Get the basic layout working before worrying about closets. I can't do anything more with it without a drawing that can be printed to scale. That's the drawback of using JPG's online.

    Why put storage space above the garage? There should be plenty of space in the attic of the main house and it can be accessed from the stair.

    liv2tell thanked JDS
  • liv2tell
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    I am very appreciative of you sharing your ideas. This is fantastic. I would sit and try to wrap my brain around this for hours. I am a graphic/web designer but those layouts are quite different than living spaces. ;)

    The attic above the garage is really my husband's thing.

  • JDS
    8 years ago

    Where does the stair in the plans go?

  • liv2tell
    Original Author
    8 years ago
    In the original plan it says it goes down for basement. What I want is for the roof to be high enough, with no extra high ceilings on the first level (8-9 feet) so that we can "carve out" a couple of rooms - maybe one over the dining room (office) and one large-ish rectangle shape room over the two front bedrooms.

    Just for extra info, the house will be flipped horizontally so that when you face it the garage is on the right. We own land on a curve/corner and the only entrance is where we will be driving up from behind the home. The home will face north. So the garage is on the west and I love that the bedrooms will get be morning sun on the east. (I agree a window in the master bath is best.)

    I will post some more pics.

    I think my husbands thinking is that one day the entire garage, up and downstairs, could be converted to living space. He has always had his mind set on a good garage with a room above it.
  • JDS
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    In that case, I recommend framing the roof with rafters instead of trusses and spraying foam insulation between the rafters with no roof vents (sealed attic).

    I would also extend the bearing walls 2 ft above the attic floor to improve second floor headroom, get rid of the fake cross gable and add a real dormer. Why settle for fake features when you can spend that money on functional ones? In my experience, houses that work well on the inside are surprisingly better looking on the outside. You can save a fortune by deleting the oversized arch top window. And I would use a direct vent gas fireplace instead of a 2 story chimney. If you are going to have a wrap-around porch you might as well continue it to the breeze way unless you have a use for the little space between them.

  • liv2tell
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    Some of the things you said are over my head as far as construction goes but I will pass that along. I'm thinking the little space inbetween in the porch and the screened porch could be a little flower bed with some stone path brick ground area ... thing. A outdoor project that will be pretty to look at through the dining window. And maybe that be a bay window?

    Can you further explain about the fake cross gable vs a real dormer? I think I know what you mean but I don't want to assume. I have questioned if the white porch railing with match the brick & stone look and feel we want.

  • liv2tell
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    Oh and we will not have a fireplace!

  • cpartist
    8 years ago

    I hope you are not really mixing brick, stone and vinyl like you posted. Too many finishes on the front. Pick two. More looks overdone especially on a small house like yours.

    Will the stone veneer wrap around the whole house or just be on the front? Nothing says fake brick and stone better than when it's only on the front of the house.

  • liv2tell
    Original Author
    8 years ago
    It's a full brick home with stone veneer accenting. The beige earth tone vinyl at the top is something I've seen in a new development that I think looks nice and adds a " pop" of interest visually. But this is certainly a brick home.
  • JDS
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    Most flowering plants don't do well in shaded areas.

    If you put stone on the garage, it will be obvious that it is fake because of the large door opening with no visible means of supporting the stone above it. Treat the garage like a barn; have you ever seen a stone barn?

    A small stone structure attached to a larger wood framed fake cross gable makes no sense. The fabric of the house should have some measure of logic ... as if it the materials were real and the shapes had some purpose.

    I just noticed the rest of the house is brick. The house will look like a faux siding mock up at a home show.

    Its time for you to hire someone to help you design this house. Good luck.

  • liv2tell
    Original Author
    8 years ago
    Of course stone veneer is just a fake facade that people think looks cool. But is there an application that you et al support?
  • Sherry8aNorthAL
    8 years ago

    You need a bigger floor plan to start with. Under 1300 sq ft is way too small. We have 1400 and are crammed. I have a bath like your hall bath. No room to put a hamper. You will be walking through everything since there aren't real hallways. If you can afford to build 1700 sq ft, I would look for a 1700 to 1800 at the least. There a lot of plans that look just like the one you picked except bigger. The garage is not big enough to park two small cars in, let alone anything close to the size of a truck or van.

  • Sherry8aNorthAL
    8 years ago

    I must add also, that if you need to build a small house and there is only the two of you, go for it. My inlaws built a very small house and lived there for for more than 30 years. Don't think though that it is easy to add on to later. I have found that it is very hard to tear things up to add on or remodel.

  • cpartist
    8 years ago

    I have stone veneer going on my house but I made it to look like it's supporting the rest of the house in that I only have it on the bottom 2' of the house and then my first floor is stucco and my second floor is siding. And so it doesn't look fake, my stone continues around the whole house, not just on the front facade.

    Additionally the choice is usually either brick OR stone, not both. What you have there is a mish mosh of different styles. JDS is right. Do yourself a favor and hire an architect.

  • mrspete
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    How would I make this larger? The simplest option is go to the Don Gardner website and click "find houses with similar floorplans" ... doing that, I see that the Bakersfield, the Crosswinds, the Joilet, the Altamont, the Brennan, the Ireland, two Hampstead, and the Haversham plans are simlar. They fall between 1600-1900 sf, and they have the same basic layout. I like the ones that alter the kitchen so that it doesn't function as a major thoroughfare. Choosing one of these "first cousins" would be the easiest way to give you the extra space you want ... without a great deal of trouble or cost.

    Having a plan drawn up just for you is absolutely an option, but since you're looking at a simple, small plan, I'm guessing you don't want to spend heavily on the plan ... and if you're looking at changing room sizes, rooflines, etc., you're getting into big costs.

    Having said that, the house is cute as can be, but these are the three things that I'd say MUST change:

    - The main entry to the house funnels through the kitchen. You could change it in a number of ways, but this is an absolute no-go. It'll be a constant problem.

    - The washer/dryer is also a major problem. First, since it's in the middle of the house, you'll have to figure out how to vent the dryer to the outside. A dryer in the middle of the house is possible, but it will cost more, will add to your maintenance, and will be a fire hazard. The second problem is that the area's so small that you'll have no place to store "waiting loads" ... so the reality is that you'll be stepping over piles of laundry to reach the master bedroom. I'm not in the camp of must-have-massive-laundry-room, but I've lived with this laundry room, and I would make sacrifices elsewhere to avoid doing it again.

    - The size of the living areas. The living room, dining room and kitchen are skimpy in size. Even if you keep your furniture small, you'll be working with a too-small-for-comfort space. Test it: Place appropriate-sized furniture into the rooms.

    Adding six feet top to bottom would make a big difference.

    Well, it'd make a difference, but it wouldn't be the most efficient choice. Looking at the roofline, it'd be easier to stretch the house in terms of width. You can add another truss or two and go wider ... but altering the depth would require major changes in the roofline proportion.

    If you had any idea how small of a space we have been living in for the
    past several years with three pets and one toddler, and could see how
    amazingly we've made it work.

    I hear what you're saying, but I've gotta say, "So what?" The goal isn't to take one step forward in terms of comfort and function. The goal is to create a house that maximizes your resources and works as well as possible for your family. Don't accept, "Well, it's better than we have now."

  • cpartist
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    Also as mrspete says, if it's good enough for you with what you have now, then why move? The whole idea is to improve over what you have now. Especially if you're building. If you're building the idea is to make the most efficient and workable space possible. Since you're looking to build a small house, I highly recommend you read, The Not So Big House by Sarah Susanka. It's excellent in that it helps identify how to put a lot into a smaller footprint.

  • liv2tell
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    I hear you, mrs pete. How would you change the garage entry/exit not to be through the kitchen. My front door is on the edge of my kitchen right now and I really don't mind. I like that my husband walks right into what we're doing at the end of the day, and we kiss him goodbye as he finishes breakfast. I'm not worried about tracking in mess or dirt from the outside very much. So is there something I'm missing? We might brush shoulders? No big to me.

    You caught my attention with fire hazard. I have lived with my washer and dryer this way for a long time now, and I've also lived with a laundry room on the opposite end of the house. I prefer the close by, compact laundry areas. Is it really a fire hazard not to be on the outer wall, though? That's certainly something to consider.

    I do plan on testing the living areas and furniture to scale with floorplanner.com.

    I will look through the other house plans you listed above after toddler's bedtime but I truly love this plan I've selected. Breakfast areas are such a joke to me. Why in the world would I want two tables.

  • liv2tell
    Original Author
    8 years ago
    >> The whole idea is to improve over what you have now. Especially if you're building. If you're building the idea is to make the most efficient and workable space possible.

    And that is exactly what I'm doing. I will look at the book, thanks.
  • mrspete
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    I hear you, mrs pete. How would you
    change the garage entry/exit not to be through the kitchen. My front
    door is on the edge of my kitchen right now and I really don't mind. I
    like that my husband walks right into what we're doing at the end of the
    day, and we kiss him goodbye as he finishes breakfast. I'm not worried
    about tracking in mess or dirt from the outside very much. So is there
    something I'm missing? We might brush shoulders? No big to me.

    In all seriousness, I'd choose another plan with a better traffic pattern. The problem is that the kitchen is a busy area, and in an ideal situation you'd avoid running traffic through it. Someone walks in while someone else is opening the oven -- an accident occurs. The back door's left open, and it prevents the cook from using the cabinets on the end. The kids hear Dad coming in and run into the kitchen, getting in your way as you cook. It's easy to imagine any number of reasons why you don't want your main entrance funneled through the kitchen.

    Pictures always help -- first, this is your plan and the red line is the traffic flow -- note that a person coming in through the casual entrance must thread his way through the kitchen, cutting off the cook from the refrigerator and interrupting the cook's work, and even if we're talking momentarily, it's an aggravation that you can avoid:

    Now, in contrast, here are three kitchens from your plan's "first cousins" -- I'm not saying you should love these kitchens; just look at how much better the traffic pattern is. Note that each of these plans has a casual entrance through the porch, coming by the kitchen, allowing for the same family interactions that you described above -- but in each case, the person entering the house skirts the action /walks by without interrupting /is on the edge of things. No interruption for the cook. Personally, I like the last one best.

    You caught my attention with fire hazard. I have lived with my washer
    and dryer this way for a long time now, and I've also lived with a
    laundry room on the opposite end of the house. I prefer the close by,
    compact laundry areas. Is it really a fire hazard not to be on the outer
    wall, though? That's certainly something to consider.

    Think through it: In an ideal world, your dryer would vent directly to the outside. The connection would be about a foot long and straight. Lint would scoot straight outside. On the other hand, if you have an interior dryer, it must be connected through a longer tube, which means more space for lint to become "hung up"; this means every time you use your dryer, more and more lint is piling up -- and if you don't have it cleaned out every year, that lint can catch a spark as the dryer runs, and it can set your house on fire. The longer tube costs more to install, and you may or may not be able to clean it out yourself.

    I'm hearing lots of "this is what I've always had" -- I'll echo what CP says: Why go to the trouble of building and moving if you're looking to have what you have now? And beware of confirmation bias. I think you're enamored of this plan; look at it with objective eyes.

    Breakfast
    areas are such a joke to me. Why in the world would I want two tables.

    That's pure opinion. No positive or negative to it.

    My husband and I are choosing a dining room and a breakfast room because we're planning a retirement home. We want a large space for frequent family dinners, but we don't like the idea of sitting in that big room at a big table with 3/4 of the chairs empty. It would feel unsettling and empty to us. Worse than that, the reality is that I'm younger and in better health than my husband. At some point, I'll be alone in this house, and I really don't want to sit alone in a big dining room to eat my meals.