Hi, mbergm, you have a challenging space. Are you gutting the kitchen? Replacing appliances? Since you mention putting a prep sink on the island, I assume you want to keep the island. Is there only 38" between the sink and the island? The dimensions on your new plan are difficult to see, and it doesn't enlarge when I click on it. If you can post the measurements of all the red lines, and the sizes of all the appliances, it will be easier to help. Thanks.

Where is the living room? Is it the same thing as the dinette?

I'd leave the ovens where they are & slide the sink way down towards the fridge. You don't need a window over a sink--lots of nice options for above it exist--and that gets you a lovely prep space, with a view!

My immediate thoughts are these:

1) Being able to see the kitchen from the front door is unusual and not a feature many like. How do you feel about it?

2) Between the location of the kitchen and how narrow it is, I'm given the sense that the kitchen doesn't really belong where it is. It seems as if it used to be in another room and was placed here after the fact. I don't have a thought to what you could do to ameliorate that impression without moving the kitchen, but I will think on it.

3) One thing that would go a long way to making the kitchen feel less narrow is opening the wall between the stairs and kitchen so there's just an airy railing between the two.

4) A fair amount of the narrow feeling is caused by the island, which has narrow walkways all all sides. Perhaps swapping it for a smaller rolling car or eliminating the island altogether would help.

5) Seems like a cool house!

6) I'd be interested to see the rest of the floor plan, just in case it sparks a brilliant idea.

7) How much would it hurt to lose the floor to ceiling cabinet next to the ovens? It'd be nice not having it jut into the aisle.

8) Is the space under your stairs aside from the bedroom closet used for anything currently? My mother has some awesome pull-outs under her stairs, and she keeps all her pantry items in them. Could be a possible location for pantry cabinets/pull-outs or your double ovens.

9) Losing as many uppers as possible would also help with the narrow feeling.

Do you have a fully measured layout of the space? We really need that if you want more detailed advice/layouts. We need the widths of each wall/door/doorway/window/post and the distances b/w each wall/door/doorway/window/post. The "Layout Help" FAQ has an example. Here's the sample picture from the FAQ:

It can be handrawn on graph paper - just be sure the writing is dark enough and legible.

Island for prepping...yes, if you had a prep sink + enough workspace (preferably at least 42"), you would probably use it as your Prep Zone. Some people prefer to prep next to the range so they don't have to turn around, others are fine with having the Prep Zone across the aisle from the range.

Pantry...I was going to say the perfect place is that alcove b/w the DR and Kitchen - but there appears to be a pass-through there. Oh well.

Thank you everyone for looking at my layout! I do appreciate this.

MamaGoose:

1)Yes, we are gutting the kitchen and getting new appliances.
I already have new Bosch dishwasher and full size LG French door 35 3/4 wide/full depth.

2)Yes,
the aisle is 38 inches between island and sink and it has not been a problem in
30 years. Not ideal but never caused an injury or frustrated me. Main Walkway on
other side of kitchen is 42 inches. But I can change these somewhat when gutting the kitchen. Would like to keep island as it creates buffer to walk to front of house.

3) We are on vacation so I will try to post on graph paper when I get home. I hope this is more legible.

Total width of kitchen is 11’10”. Old house—no real houseplans so
these are all based off of interior measurements and old house has some bowing.

Regarding sizes of appliances: All are being replaced: I
currently have 24” double ovens in the
area of the wall where I am considering the pass through to dining room.
I don’t think they even make them anymore so will go to standard double ovens
or I am also open to a slide in range. But I do like my chest level oven-no stooping but this is not mandatory. Cooktop
will change—probably induction. New refrigerator is 35 ¾ wide standard depth French
door that will be recessed into stud
wall.

Oops, forgot the rest of my post. Warning long post again, sorry.

Jillius: Thank you also for your indepth questions.

This is the addition we put on--the dinette and entry area. The living room is at the far other end of home facing the lake.

The living room is above the formal dining room and not
shown on the first floor plan. This
faces the lake and we wouldn’t give it up/swap for kitchen space. A long family
room runs along the side length of the dining room and living room on the left
side too.

We added the entry/dinette area because otherwise you stepped almost
directly into the kitchen. 100 years ago
they just took a house and plopped the formal “front door” side on the lake
side and the back door on the driveway side.
I hated coming directly into the
kitchen so we added the octagon dinette and more defined entry area around this
door.

1) How do I feel about seeing the
kitchen from front door? Not ideal but I
like my living room and family room having lake views and short of tearing the
house down, kitchen stays.

2) This is original kitchen position. House is similar to what was called a
“shotgun” home and is two rooms wide all
along. So named because a shot would pass straight through the house front to
back.

3) Stairway is partly open as far as can be as there is bedroom closet in 1/2 of that wall.

4) Room is narrow but island helps direct traffic to the front of the house, has storage under it, is secondary wide prep area, good for landing etc. Rather open up room with more windows, ceiling may be able to gain a foot etc

5) Thanks 6) I have to look when I am home if we have anything drawn up for the front of the house, not sure.

this is looking from dining room into living room

7. The floor to ceiling cabinet next to the ovens will go
   so that area will be somewhat wider. Room will be gutted

8) Its not shown in
the pics as they are from last year but I do have in the studs storage along 1/2 of the stair wall. There was no room for deeper pullouts without losing the only closet in
bedroom.

Meganmca: You are
right, I am not hung up on having sink under a window and am leaning towards
putting windows in the whole top corner. I am open to a completely rearranged
layout.

1) If I keep the oven location--I cant put a pass through there (this is just an idea I am kicking around right now) and also couldnt add windows all the way to the corner. and 2) I am replacing the ovens (they are smaller 24
inch) and if I leave new ovens in that location they will take up most of the space. (I am open to slide in range but do like not stooping over).

I do
want opinions on whether I should add the pass through in that corner into the
dining room.?

Buehl: I am working on a graph layout but we are on vacation so I cant check measurements. Does the previous post help?. There is not a pass through yet but was drawn into the plans to see what it would look like . I am
considering creating a small pass through into the formal dining room but will have to do quite
a bit of reconstructing the mirrored center part of my built in dining room
buffet to do this.

Thank you Thank you Thank you all

Could you please post a floorplan showing all the rooms on this floor, including the living and family room? And maybe a picture of the family room too?

Interesting that they essentially built the house backwards! Totally explains the kitchen placement.

I do think you could open up the staircase a lot more. The bedroom closet is under the stairs, right? So removing more wall above the stairs should be fair game.

Like this before and after:

If you did such a thing, it'd be good to have an airy banister that doesn't stop the eye, so the sight lines go straight from the kitchen through to the far side of the staircase and the room feels as wide as possible.

Maybe something like this banister:

Do you already have or would you consider adding a skylight above the stairs? That'd get natural light and an airy, spacious feeling coming into the kitchen on both sides, especially if you enlarge the kitchen windows and lose uppers too.

Between the two (staircase changes and window wall changes), the kitchen would feel twice as big!

There is a lot to be said for, even if you can't make your aisles bigger or materially change the footprint, if your eyes can see farther (out the windows or across the stairs), and the room has more natural light, the room will feel bigger.

I worry that if you only add length to the kitchen (as you have already) and no greater sense of width, the room will just feel more narrow instead of bigger. Proportions can be funny that way. Same way creating an enormous wide open space in a home can make the ceilings feel low if there is no proportional rise in ceiling height.

I love the style of your house! Thanks for the clarified plan. I understand narrow aisles in an old house--mine are similar, and I also put in some stud-bay storage recessed under the end of the stairs. It was one of my best decisions.

Here's a plan than eliminates the blind corners, and keeps the pass-through, although there is no counter on the kitchen side of the opening--you might be able to extend the ledge a few inches if it doesn't interfere with the open oven. With the pass-through you'll have elbow room on both sides, to open the oven door. Since you have such a narrow aisle, and two people probably won't be in it at the same time, I left the prep sink out--that leave more counter space on the island.

I used shallow storage where there's space, including against the other stairwell if possible--where the '?' is drawn.

• 30" ovens
• 24" DW + 1" side support
• 36" sink cab
• 36" prep space
• 30" cooktop with 36" hood
• 24" landing
• 36" fridge + 1" side panel
• 30" pantry
• Adds up to 248"

Jillius: Thanks for the stairway ideas and pictures to help visualize it. Good idea. I will look into opening maybe another stud or two but I have switches (easier to move) and an old intercom which works the doorbell and still works well to call my husband in the basement, front of the house, deck or upstairs. That would be hard to move.(a zillion wires coming in from 3 stories of house) But I will look into it. Maybe I can drop it down in the wall. There is a pretty large skylight in the front door hall area almost directly above the first step and also there is a window on top of stairwell with stained glass in it. It looks dark in photo because there is snow on the skylight. I hope I can open it up more.

I wont have more pics or architectural drawings of front of house until I get home from vacation Tuesday.

Mamagoose: Both you and Jillius gave me fresh ways to look at my old kitchen.! Just what I wanted. I like the idea of eliminating the corner cabinets especially.

What do you and other gardenwebbers think of the modification below?? I like the idea of a walk in pantry for deeper storage, maybe put the microwave there, toaster, deeper platters etc, and it would give me more counter space to the right of the cooktop if the refrigerator moved back to the first location.

I cant .tell you how much I appreciate all the brainstorming and new ways to look at the space

I'm not a fan of corner pantries, but in an older home, sometimes you have to adjust your thinking. :) Since the post is behind where the fridge's right side door will open, can you cut the stub wall back to allow the door to open fully? You need to be able to remove the crispers for cleaning.

With more room on the counter, you could move everything else down by 6" or so, and put the ovens beside the pantry. Then you could store dishes in the cabs between the DW and pass-through.

So, I have been playing around with other options while on vacation. Here is idea with a twist on Mamagoose's plan above:

1) if I gave up idea of double ovens and separate cooktop and went with a big 48 inch wolf/viking type oven ith large and small ovens below, then more counter space and room for pantry

2) Pantry would be about 3'7"(4 feet minus stud wall) on short side near fridge and about 4'5"(after studs) on outside long wall. Is that enough? I'd like to keep toaster, blender, maybe microwave and other appliances in there.

3. I would just abandon the corner at the top of the plan but instead of shallow cabinet on opposite wall, I'd put in regular drawers below pass through. Main Sink would be kinda wedged into corner but

4) add prep sink on island near fridge with cutting board type cover to make it level with countertop when not in use

Just another thought and looking for comments on it.

Please excuse the drawings below--cant figure out how to add sinks or build a pantry with door.

I do appreciate all the expertise here. Thank you.

I like the idea of a range. Will that leave the sink up against the corner? I don't care for a sink or range up against a corner (forehead smack--I gotta remember this is your kitchen, not mine ;), but another 4.5' of drawer space might be worth it. Don't forget filler in the corner so that drawers will open past the sink doors and handles.

Hello, still soliciting new eyes and novel layouts for my
kitchen after post vacation catching up. Willing to consider any input and thankful for it. Also, responding to request for the fully measured more exact floor plan on graph paper-see below

1) I re-measured (many times) and laid out kitchen bare wall
measurements on graph paper as requested. Found some mistakes too:

A) The support post
that has to stay is farther into the room than I originally measured and will
interfere with my refrigerator door swing so had to scoot refrigerator 7
inches away from post (mocked up space needed to open door to remove crispers)

B) This shortens up
the space for potential corner pantry to about 42 inches (includes 5 inch wall
build-outs for studs) by 5 feet on opposite wall. I taped out an area on the floor to simulate a
42 by 60 inch pantry and I think it will accomplish what I want.

Looking for opinions
from people with real corner pantries. Will I be able to stand in pantry
and have countertop height area to keep toaster, blender, and small appliances
on and use in place as well as have storage for larger platters etc? I do have in the studs storage for smaller
items so don’t need that.

c) Figured out my pass through would be 32 inches wide and
would start 35 inches in from outside wall (in order to fit into dining room
builtin) so that space is confined by those parameters.

1 square=12 INCHES

This is with all cabinets and walls removed. Windows can be placed anywhere along 128 inches at top before garage intrudes. Post must stay.

Finally, Jillius asked for floorplan of front/lake side of house. I have searched and cannot find one. I will keep looking. Never had original as house is from 1916. Best I can do right now is photos below. Living room runs from dining room forward L=24 feet and width 14 feet. Family room runs to the left of it L=36 feet by 14 feet wide. Pictures below but I really dont want to mess with the lake side of the house/entertaining area.

Living room, combined family/sunroom is on left

Family room/bar

Hi, mbergm, good to hear from you again. Can you please verify your scale of 1sq=12"? 1sq=6" seems closer to the typed measurements.

Do you really need seating at the island? As drawn, the overhang is something like 9.5" - too shallow even for a small child! Couple that with the tight (too narrow) aisle behind the island and that island w/seats is going to force traffic through the Kitchen, not around it b/c the stools with or without people are going to be an obstacle in that narrow aisle! The island will do the opposite of what you want it to do!

if you eliminate the seating, there will be no obstacles and people will gladly walk by on the non-Kitchen side of the island. In addition, you can make the work aisles better.

I have a question regarding how you like to prep...do you prefer to prep next to the cooktop or on the island across from the cooktop? Some people prefer b/w the sink and cooktop while others don't mind turning around and taking prepped food to the cooktop from the island. Which do you prefer? (This may be a tough question b/c you don't have a sink in your island today - but if it turns out you still prep on the island even without a water source, then I think that answers the question!)

+++++

Regarding your comment to effect of "that's what I've always had and it's not an issue". Of course it's not, b/c you've adapted to it!

Human beings are very adaptable. We can adapt to anything - good or bad! We adapt so well that we tell ourselves it's fine the way it is. But, what if it could be better? If you ask just about anyone here who took our advice and changed their layout to make it better, they will tell you they never realized it could be so much better and wondered how they had lived with the issues for so long! (The answer is back to the adaptability of human beings!)

Human beings are resistant to change. Even when something can be made better, we resist change. We like what we know and we have a hard time seeing other ways to do things - even if they would be so much better! And, as I mentioned before, we've adapted to what we have - both the good and the bad.

Why not at least try for something better?

MamaGoose, it's definitely 1 square = 6". I suspect it's a typo or what s/he started with.

So, here it is for anyone who wants to work with it without having to redraw it up. Unfortunately, I don't have time to continue working on it.

Scale is 1 square = 6" x 6"

I just realized that I never posted the Kitchen Design FAQ threads. These FAQs will help you understand the comments you receive (and the suggested layouts).

Kitchen Design FAQ threads:

Kitchen work zones, what are they?

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/3638270/faq-kitchen-work-zones-what-are-they

Aisle widths, walkways, seating overhangs, work and landing space, and others

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/3638304/faq-aisle-widths-walkways-seating-overhangs-work-landing-space-etc

How do I plan for storage? Types of Storage? What to Store Where?

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/3638376/faq-how-do-i-plan-for-storage

Ice. Water. Stone. Fire (Looking for layout help? Memorize this first)

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2699918/looking-for-layout-help-memorize-this-first

Thank you, buehl, that made it much easier. Here are two versions, the same m/l, except for DW placement. I made the pantry 54" x 42" in the first one, and in the second one, I moved the DW to the pass-through wall, and moved the sink down, which leaves more prep space between the sink and range, and gives you 60" for the pantry. (Click to enlarge.)

ETA a third option, which follows IWSF, and puts the range closer to the pass-through, for plating and serving. The pantry is 54x42, and since there are some larger drawers on the perimeter, I made the drawer bases in the island only 18" deep, and added 3" to each aisle. While there's no window over the sink, there's one in the prep space. There is space for a couple of open shelves over the sink and DW, for glasses or other often used items.

"Looking for opinions from people with real corner pantries. Will I be able to stand in pantry and have countertop height area to keep toaster, blender, and small appliances on and use in place as well as have storage for larger platters etc? I do have in the studs storage for smaller items so don’t need that."

.

We have a corner pantry that measures approx 42" x 52". It's really more of a step-in pantry b/c of it's size. The shelves are 12" deep along one wall and 15" deep along the other.

There is not enough room to have a counter for small appliances that can be used in-place. Granted you may have 8 more inches than us along one side, but I do not think those extra 8" will make that much of a difference. Even if there was, it would take up a lot of space in a pantry that isn't that big in the first place.

We had planned to put a second MW in the pantry (that's why one side had 15" deep shelves), but when it was done, we realized there was not enough space.

One thing to keep in mind is that you need to be sure the angled wall is long enough to house the door opening + door frame + trim/molding + corner studs where the side walls meet the angled wall.

I've linked to some Pantry threads so you can see what other people have done.

Pantry photos/ pics of pantries

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2401919/pantry-photos-pics-of-pantries?n=64

Anyone willing to share the inside of their pantry?

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2674605/anyone-willing-to-share-the-inside-of-their-pantry

Walk-in pantry -- can I see yours?

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2662215/walk-in-pantry-can-i-see-yours?n=3

Yep, I did make a typo with the scale as 1 sq=6 inches. Thank you for correcting that.

Also, its great to see the different layouts and new ideas to consider. Lots of food for thought.

REI have a question regarding how you like to prep. I usually prep in the small area between sink and cooktop even though I have island and larger counter to left of stove. I wash my hands a lot and dont like to have crumbs etc on them even in the middle of doing the same thing--like between each chicken breast. If I am making something with lots of bowls/layers/ requires several cookie sheets or laying out of appetizer--then I prep on island. But, I dont have electricity or water on island now.

Do you really need seating at the island? Short answer is no. As my kitchen is now I have a 43 inch walkway , an 11 inch overhang, and 38 inches between island and cabinets. The seating is seldom used now, my kids, now grown, ate quick meals there or did homework. Today, sometimes my DH will sit there to talk to me (bad back) when I get dinner ready. For family parties my SIL/MIL will sit there to chop veggies etc. No one is walking back and forth at that time behind them. People dont congregate in my kitchen--they go out on the lakeside deck. But, that said-it is nice to have some seating as people age for those times.

Honestly, no one has every walked through my kitchen on the other side of island as it is now.

The aisle widths are not drawn in right in my Lowe's software visualizations and I couldnt figure a way to put on countertops.

I am open to making it better. Where I start to question or weigh pros and cons is this: 1) Humans adapt to what they have so I probably dont notice the narrow isles but I think if it really bothered me and was a problem I would know. Because it really bothers me and I havent adapted to the tiny prep space, to my useless symmetrical 14 inch upper cabinets, terrible garbage placement, and no electrical on the island.

2) I like my quick turn and pivot on smaller walkway--its a one person isle. If I enlarge it and take out the seating on the other side, I lose the companionship of everyday chatting with my DH/a seat for MIL (in her 80's).

However, I dont want to close my mind to "at least make it better" so I am weighing the pros and cons. I think I have passed the dream wish list stage and see everything I want isnt going to fit.

Thank you particularly for the pantry walk in help. I didnt want to admit it wouldnt work for appliances but I needed a reality check. I can also put a cabinet on the dinette wall far side of the stairs so perhaps I should rethink the pantry? or not?

Annette Holbrook: very interesting concept to put the pantry in the corner. I am mulling that over as a fresh look at the space. Dont know if I would still do pass through to dining room and if I would put window in there as my windows can only go along that top wall. Maybe have an open doorway or slide into the wall door?

I am going to study and look at all the options especially getting the sink out of the corner in mama goose's plans.

It is so exciting to see possibilities. You are amazing people on this forum to take the time to lay out someone else's kitchen!

I get what you're saying about the entry side thing. We are looking at cabins in the mountains and it took me awhile to adjust to entering through the utility side of the house as they save the living area to address the view.

My plan was really not thinking about a pass through as I have one currently and have never used it. Mine is above a standard sized cabinet run and it is a pain to reach over the counter and attempt to set anything down on the other side. If it was perfectly level between the 2 rooms it might be better. It works better if someone is on the other side to pass things through to, at which point two people could have carried 4 dishes around with no choreography required. My husband stated that if he was building it now he'd have the pass through with nothing under it, but I told him I'd rather have the cabinet space.

Regardless, it's a fun layout to play with.

I'd hate to see the pass-through omitted, but that's mostly because I love older homes with built-ins and charming details, and I think it fits the style of your home. One of the plans I posted up-thread doesn't have counter in front of the pass-through on the kitchen side, and also eliminates the blind corner. With Annette's advice about a too deep counter, that's something to consider.

Are you thinking the pass through between dining room and kitchen would be used mostly for transferring dirty dishes and the butlers pantry is for staging food before serving?

My parents have a pass through b/w the Dining Room and Kitchen and it's used not just for staging food and clearing the table, but for every day use such as taking a dirty dish from the Living Room and putting it on the pass through, putting the phone on the pass through so you can get to it from either the Kitchen or the Living Room and Dining Room, etc. When someone is prepping,cooking, or cleaning up in the Kitchen, they can communicate with someone in the DR or LR b/c of the opening. It's a nice feature when your DR doesn't open directly into the Kitchen - I would first try other things b/f eliminating the pass through!

Regarding prep space, strive for 42". 36" is the bare minimum, but 42" is so much better! You have enough space so there's no reason not to have 42".

Note that base cabinets don't just add storage, they also add counterspace. Upper cabinets, though, you might be able to eliminate if you have a large pantry, but be sure you have space for storing dishes.

Regarding not using the island much for prep - it's probably b/c you don't have a water source on the island. Water is a key component of a Prep Zone! If you add a prep sink you might use it as your Prep Zone. Even if you do, I would still strive for 42" b/w the cleanup sink and cooktop - if for no other reason than to have better separation of the Cleanup Zone from the Prep & Cooking Zones and to minimize sharing floor space b/w the Prep and Cleanup Zones.

Regarding seating for your MIL in her 80s - does she find counter-height seating comfortable? As we age, raised seating becomes more difficult and most people that age prefer table-height seating, not counter-height. Perhaps she's different.

And now - something a little bit different...

First, I'll be honest and say that it violates several best practices/recommended guidelines for Kitchen design - in particular, aisle width. However, you insist that you have it now and that it works for you; that you in fact prefer the narrow aisle b/w the island and the cooktop/range. OK, I'll take you at your word...

The other guideline that's been bent is workflow - but just the refrigerator location. Because of the short side walls (especially the one with the pass-through), the refrigerator needs to go on the long wall. Normal workflow is Refrigerator --> Sink --> Prep space --> Range/Cooktop. The distance isn't that great, so I think it will be fine. This is actually one of those compromises frequently made b/c of just this situation - short on sidewall space (or space inside the workflow). The only other option is to put the refrigerator b/w the range and sink, but that causes even bigger issues - namely sticking a tall object b/w the primary work zones (Prep & Cooking, in this case) and drawing traffic into the working part of the Kitchen if an "outsider" wanted something out of the refrigerator.

Next, are you willing to consider a range instead of a cooktop + wall oven? If so, how about something like this?

It gives you your fairly large pantry, including a counter to store small appliances and, if desired, use them on the counter. In addition, there is plenty of shelf space plus either shelves or base cabinets under the counter. The doorway is 42" and has sliding doors. Sliding doors don't get in the way plus you can leave them open most of the time, or at least when you're using your small appliances in the pantry on the counter - it gives you more "floor space" in the pantry.

There are two seats at the island - one on each end. The seat on the right will have a tight aisle - but it's not on a busy aisle and it probably won't be used much as you say that other than your husband or MIL, no one sits there. If it's just you and your DH, I think the left seat will be fine. You could reduce the depth of the pantry or the width of the island to get a bigger aisle - I'll let you decide if you would like to.

The aisle b/w the island and the wall is 35.5". Since there are no seats there and it's not really a work aisle, that's wide enough. Most doorways are narrower than that.

Note that the primary Prep Zone - b/w the sink and range, has 45" of workspace - plenty of space! If you need even more, there's the island - 60" wide and 42" deep.

Since you prefer working b/w the sink and range, there's no real reason to add water the island. In fact, adding a prep sink will take 18" of that workspace away - reducing the workspace to 42" - less than you now have b/w the sink and range. If you want to put one in, that's fine. 42" is a nice amount of workspace, but you will have to rearrange the island to fit it in. Notice the arrangement of cabinets...15" wide facing each end of the island with a 9"W x 15"D cabinet b/w them for cutting boards or tray storage.

There are two cabinets that are non-standard sizes - 13.5" b/w the sink and DW and 28.5" in the island. I don't know if you will be getting semi-custom or custom, but if not, then just adjust those two cabinets to standard sizes. In the case of the 28.5", reducing it to 27" will add 3/4" to each overhang. In the case of the 13.5", reducing it to 12" will probably mean adding filler - I recommend putting it b/w the sink and the now 12" cabinet for extra space b/w the DW and sink.

The sink - it's a 30" single-bowl sink in a 42" corner sink base. Since this is a one-person kitchen, having your sink in the corner should not be an issue (unless you don't like corner sinks.)

The window is both in front of the sink and in front of part of the Prep Zone's prep space. You could make it bigger and reduce the 30" cabinet correspondingly - but be sure you have sufficient dish storage convenient to the DW.

There's a MW Drawer b/w the refrigerator and range. This location puts it out of the main work zones so, like the refrigerator, it isn't drawing non-cook traffic into the Prep, Cooking, or Cleanup Zones.

Finally, there's a 12" tall utility pullout b/w the refrigerator and the pantry. It serves two purposes - provides a place for a broom/dustpan, Swifter, etc. It also provides the space you need b/w the wall and the refrigerator to allow the doors of the refrigerator to open fully.

OK, here it is!

Zone Map:

.

So many creative layouts! Lots of things to consider.

Annette Holbrook-thank you for a fresh take on the pantry at the other end of the kitchen. Mulling over in my head if I can keep the dining room pass through and maybe even a window in there but use the space for a pantry. The pass through would be level from kitchen to dining room. I wonder if arm reach/height makes a difference too as I am fairly tall with long arms. More than just the function of passing through, I like the idea of seeing into the front of the house/ the dining room has large bay window with lots of light. But, I am trying to be open to new ideas.

Mama Goose: I do like the idea of the pass through and I liked that plan you did. Problem is I like every plan so far. I am going to print out the different layouts everyone has done and think this through further. Annette makes good points about cons of pass through. I can do custom or semi custom and adjust the counter depth too.

Benjesbride: The butler's pantry is existing original built in in hallway. I may be calling it the wrong thing as it is more of a glass cabinet for storage and small countertop over cabinets--too small for staging more than coffee or dessert.

Buehl: Wow what thought filled posts and time spent on thinking this through!

1) I do want to keep the pass through! Its good to hear positive experiences that your parents use theirs. I like the idea of seeing to the front of the house, being able to see if supplies are running low when I lay out dining room table for parties, and just talking to DH.

2) I would like a nice long Prep space between sink and heat. That is what bugs me most about present kitchen so that will be very important. I am trying to figure out if water on the island will change my habits and give me more options.

3) MIL in her 80's doesnt sit long at counter height. We eat in the dining room or dinette area but she likes to help out at holidays and cant stand too long. I usually create a footrest so she is at 90 degrees hip and knee and not sitting with legs dangling.

4) I really, really like the pantry layout you came up with! I am open to a range and (i think) corner sink. I was practicing what it would be like to have sink butted up next to corner and that didnt seem too bad. Does an actual corner sink create different issues than being next to the corner? Maybe some people with this set up could share their experiences with actual corner sinks??.

I would like a bigger window but I think I need the dish storage there.

One issue I think is a minor problem is the island. By configuring it with the base cabinets it is wider than my existing one and narrows the walkway from kitchen to front of house to 35.5 from 42 inches and I dont think I can do that. I like a non standard shortened aisle on the cook side but need the wider aisle for people walking through and carrying things etc. But, I could leave island as existing with smaller stools to pull up maybe.

I really appreciate all the work and its given me so much to think about.

On the flip side, should I give up the idea of a walk in pantry so everything doesnt need to get pushed down? I have an open area to the left side of the stairs which could be made into a walk up pantry cabinet--there's about 55 inches there. It does does face my front door but could be fashioned like a piece of furniture or less kitcheny? open wall Area is left of stairs before interior bedroom window and desk area in plan below and since kitchen is pushed out 3 feet that area is somewhat more incorporated into kitchen.

Mbergm, so glad to see you are getting some additional layout ideas for your kitchen. The corner pantry options were good but buehl's plan with the pantry straight across could work well too. It looks like the pantry she drew is 51 inches deep. If you could get by with less than that you could move the refrigerator down a bit and get more room between the range and refrigerator. Since the plan shows a CD refrigerator and you have a brand new regular depth refrigerator you will have to recess that into the garage. Good thing you have that extra big garage.

Another option you might considered, is running base and wall cabinets along the wall were beuhl has the pantry. You would gain a few inches on your long wall because you wouldn't have to frame out a wall for the sliding door. I realize you would still have to keep that section of wall that hides your support post but that shouldn't interfere with putting 24" deep base cabinetry on that back wall. You could put your microwave on a shelf below one of the upper cabinets there and/or you could put a wall oven below the counter. I know you would like to have a second oven. You might even consider doing a wall of tall cabinetry there and then you could have the microwave and wall oven mounted higher.

If you still feel you need a pantry, then you could do the pantry cabinet you mentioned on that wall in your dinette area.

I still think it would be great if you could add a prep sink to your island. Your island could then be a secondary prep area and maybe you would get some help in the kitchen for all those great parties you host.

To those of you contributing to this thread, I know what I'm talking about when I say that mbergm hosts great parties. I have been to her house numerous times throughout the years that I have known her and you should see the fabulous hors devours, entrees and desserts she has served up from that kitchen. And she does need that pass through so she can at least communicate a bit with her guests while she is in the kitchen. I have always felt bad for her because she was stuck behind the wall in her cramped kitchen.

beuhl, I don't know how to do floor plans or how to modify the one you drew the other night, so if you think my suggestions are worth considering and you have time maybe you could post that variation. You, mama goose, benjesbride, jillius, Annette and many others are incredibly generous with your time and talents. This forum and all of us who visit it are lucky to have you. Thanks so much for all your contributions.

Here's a variation for the island:

Just as an FYI, I have a corner sink for my prep sink. It's much smaller and in a 36" corner sink base. I really like it b/c it's location allows me to have two Prep Zones with one sink - one on each side of the sink. It also combines the two least efficient storage cabinets in a kitchen - sink bases and corners.

However, two people cannot generally work at the sink at the same time with a corner sink. Definitely not mine and, I suspect, the same for one the size of yours.

Thank you everyone. I continue to be amazed by this site with
so much thoughtful help and advice and skilled layout. I am trying to sort out
all the good advice and find my way to what is important to me. I purposefully
want to be open to different approaches but I have to start sorting out
pros/cons and what I can give up.

Dilemmas: Pros Cons

1)Larger/space hogging windows: pros: more lake view,brighter kitchen, more light in WI winters. Cons: requires smaller oven(s), limits upper cabinets, limits pantry size,

2) Large kitchen pantry: PRO: everything right in kitchen, small appliances accessible on counters. CONS: larger pantry squeezes sizes of oven, cabinets, pushes sink into corner. Kitchens should be about cooking first and storage 2nd.

3)Dbl ovens and
cooktop: Pros have dbl ovens now, if go to smaller range am I losing too much function, I do use two ovens but they hog space, Could go to induction cooktop. CONS: take up more space than range, tall ovens are visual blocks so careful placement, also eat up space for in kitchen pantry

4) 48 inch range with bells and whistles, oven and 1/2. PROS: saves space sover separate pieces, OOOH pretty! (bad reason but still so beautiful), ,has 2 ovens, could step up my cooking skills with this and gas burners/grill or griddle top. Cons: is it too much for my kitchen??,too overpowering? $$ worth its? large size limits cabinets and pantry, no induction.

Gut instinct tells me I want: the pass through, the bigger
windows and give up the walk in pantry (so sad) in the kitchen for larger range
or double ovens and induction cooktop. I
had to see layouts with the pantry in kitchen to see that I would have to give
up too much. I wanted it all but I also wanted to be a princess till I grew up.
Oh wait, DH thinks I still act like one!

--Thinking will go with furniture style piece to left of
stairs for walk up pantry. Have seen some on Houzz where you open the doors
and there is counter for small appliances or baking center. You stand in front, not walk in. Copy the
look of dining room built in. Near but not in kitchen.

I am no closer yet to deciding on double ovens with
induction range top, fancy 48 inch dual fuel range with two ovens, range and separate
oven as Badgergal suggested. I will be looking for more advice from GWebbers.

Buell: Amazing
how you can change up the island so fast. Love it. Can I still fit in a prep sink or not ? Its perfect, fits in sitting.
At least there, I can “have it all.” Thank you for continuing to work with me
on this. (or for me as you do all the work and I do all the talking)

Badgergal:
Appreciate the nice comments and also your
support in encouraging me to delurk and finally post. You are right, I do want
more oven space and the pantry was too much of a focus. Changing the refrigerator
placement to long wall would be an expense to push outside house envelope into
garage to use my new large refrigerator. So downsizing and/or relocating pantry to side of stairs takes pressure
off squeezing everything on the long wall.

I am getting closer to narrowing choices down. Thank you again and again for all the expertise and ideas. My head is spinning.