pinkmountain, you said, "What some see as lecturing or proselytizing is no different than me explaining why I believe in composting." I agree, and think we need to understand that when it comes to discussing religion, the rest of us are doing the exact same thing as the 'proselytizers,' if we are equal participants in voicing what lead us to our personal 'non-Christian' beliefs. We are just as eagerly trying to persuade those of the opposite view, to see the error of their beliefs and understand the 'logic' of ours.

jdez, you said "I also don't see the difference in rgreen using scripture to support his/her beliefs to explain the Bible to people with different views and you quoting Senators and astrophysicists to support your science and fact-based beliefs to someone who doesn't share your views." I agree. Providing links to articles or numerous quotes from politicians or scientists, in hopes of clarifying/supporting our political or scientific beliefs, and someone offering numerous scripture quotes in hopes of clarifying/supporting their religious beliefs, are no different.

As well, I feel that knocking on doors or stopping a passer-by with a pamphlet to espouse one's religious beliefs, can be deemed overbearing and intrusive by many of us. But, seeing numerous scripture quotes to demonstrate one's beliefs about things written in the Bible, does not surprise me, in a thread discussion asking "Do you believe in God?" I did not feel that any posts were debasing to non believers, and took no inference that I was supposed to be converted, merely by reading about someone else's beliefs.

"We are just as eagerly trying to persuade those of the opposite view, to see the error of their beliefs and understand the 'logic' of ours."

Picky, please speak for yourself. I do not eagerly try to persuade anyone, nor does it seem that any other atheists here have done so. I do enjoy sharing my views at times, but it really makes little difference to me if someone agrees or does not. This thread stopped being enjoyable long ago and I have not read every post. I apologize for saying I was bowing out and now I have returned after all. Oh, and as a gardener, I can tell you that composting is based on scientific knowledge. A lecture on that would be quite different and based on facts and scientific observation.

"I agree. Providing links to articles or numerous quotes from politicians or scientists, in hopes of clarifying/supporting our political or scientific beliefs, and someone offering numerous scripture quotes in hopes of clarifying/supporting their religious beliefs, are no different."

I emphatically disagree when discussing science. There is no comparison. Politics, possibly, but science is by definition quite different. Science deals in facts that can be independently verified. If a scientist were to repeatedly quote his own findings that had not been replicated elsewhere, he would not be highly respected at all. In fact, he would be roundly dismissed.

Edited to say I cross-posted with cyn.

Perhaps an analogy would be helpful. It would be one thing for someone with a very specific decorating world view to share their decorating and home-keeping beliefs on a forum, but quite another to repeatedly speak as if their way is THE true way to do everything, which suggests others with different beliefs or ways are 'wrong'. Insert political beliefs, religion, or whatever, but when people are driven away, there is a clue that perhaps one has become obsessive. Also, just because a thread is entitled "Do you believe in God" it is not necessarily an open invitation to spout scripture ad nauseam; perhaps there are religious focused forums where such debates are relished and may be well received.

Providing links to articles or numerous quotes from politicians or scientists...

There is a difference...I used 2 quotes to illustrate my points. I would hardly call that numerous. A rough estimate is rgreen has used over 75 biblical quotes ... so far.

At some point, it stops being a discussion and turns into a one-way lecture, which is necessarily accompanied by the implicit suggestion and underlying judgments that, "I'm right, you're wrong, I know better than you".

rgreen, how do you feel about healthcare? certain fundamentalist groups reject modern medicine and healthcare, which i believe is fine as long as it is for themselves, but certainly can be hurtful to others, imo, if they have children and choose to withhold healthcare/medicine/procedures/surgery, etc for their dependent children...

busybee, Biblically speaking, I have no idea why 'fundamentalist groups reject modern medicine and healthcare'. There may be a certain procedure they object to on Biblical grounds, but the Bible writer Luke was a doctor, and to my mind, surely there would have been plenty of opportunity to speak against the practice of medicine.

Further up the thread there was a discussion about drugs, but the Bible does not speak against the use of medicine for illness. It does though, speak against drug use in spirituality, and we can point to cautions against recreational use (abuse) of both medicine and illegal drugs.

In any subject that is not spelled out directly, the scriptures point to our conscience as a guide. (Romans 2: 14, 15) However, it gives details on training our conscience. Just like Proverbs says about us raising our children, when we accept God as our father, we also learn from his teachings of right and wrong. (Prov. 22: 6)

So, while there may be individual objections against certain medical procedures, I do not know of any outright Bible teachings against modern medicine or against healthcare as a whole.

Annie, i agree with you absolutely that facts and information are the best tools to defend a position. However, when trying to persuade someone in a discusion of values, opinions and personal anecdotes are not only useful but invaluable---even necessary. One might share an experience or feeling that happens to resonate with one's listener. Or live and speak in a manner that sets an attractive example for a person who is looking for a spiritual connection. That in itself is not a good basis for a faith in god but it is often the way people are converted.

The obvious takeaway here is that no Christian speaks for all Christians. The nature of the religion is highly individual, e.g. each person may pray to god alone, salvation is individual and not corporate, etc. Rather than being wielded as a weapon against heathens, my understanding is that the Bible is to be used by the individual as a source of inspiration for his or her own journey of faith. The deluge of quoted scripture on this thread has proved counterproductive, and the citing of verse numbers between two posters in a general discussion is akin to children using pig latin as a thinly veiled code. There are some Christians who would better help their cause by not proselytizing!

rgreen, I have been reading your posts, you have a really solid foundation in understanding the Bible. I have been a Christian for 25 years, attending a Bible-teaching church all those years as well as numerous Bible studies and my own reading and prayer life and I have found nothing in your posts I take issue with. You represent the Biblical teachings well my friend.

The obvious takeaway here is that no Christian speaks for all Christians. The nature of the religion is highly individual, e.g. each person may pray to god alone, salvation is individual and not corporate, etc. Rather than being wielded as a weapon against heathens, my understanding is that the Bible is to be used by the individual as a source of inspiration for his or her own journey of faith.

Amen. I know I keep relaying things our pastor has said, but he's said some timely things lately! This past weekend he mentioned how large our church is, and how we don't all believe exactly the same things - and that's perfectly fine. We are each on our own journey and God is working through our lives in very individual ways. It would be foolish to even expect that we'd all interpret and believe scripture in exactly the same way.

I find that very refreshing, and I believe such an allowance speaks to a need for diversity amongst believers. How can we possibly reach out and touch those we encounter if we are all exactly the same?

However, when trying to persuade someone in a discusion [sic] of values, opinions and personal anecdotes are not only useful but invaluable---even necessary.

I wasn't suggesting they weren't, but it was in response to the suggestion that beliefs are akin to conspiracy theories. My point was, on issues of objective fact, not all beliefs are correct.

This is the longest thread created over four days I have ever seen on the site. I have been a member of Gardenweb since 2001.

Wow.

It was started ten days ago on 1/22/16. There are too many replies to load all at once, so you have to click on "see more replies" to get the entire length of the thread---I've never seen that before, either!

It loads fine for me. I click on "Comment" and it takes me directly to the bottom of the page. I don't have a "see more replies" button.

cyn, I didn't mean to speak for others and apologize for saying 'we' in my sentence "We (non Bible believers) are just as eagerly trying to persuade those of the opposite view, to see the error of their beliefs and understand the 'logic' of ours."

To clarify, I have noticed that non believers are equally willing to profess our views in religious discussions, yet IMO, the religious posters who are professing their point of view are often assumed to be preaching or trying to convert us to their beliefs, where the rest of us are merely 'expressing our viewpoint.'

When I agreed with another poster about links and quotes provided in discussions about politics/science, not being any different, I was not comparing the validity of quotes in one vs. the other. I was simply agreeing that they are used freely by people in discussions of all subject matter, so in a religious discussion about our belief/non belief in God, seeing a bunch of Bible quotes cited by someone on the 'believes' side, doesn't feel any different to me.

Annie Deighnaugh, you pointed out that you had only used 2 quotes to illustrate your points and rgreen had at that point used over 75 biblical quotes. "At some point, it stops being a discussion and turns into a one-way lecture, which is necessarily accompanied by the implicit suggestion and underlying judgments that, "I'm right, you're wrong, I know better than you".

While I didn't bother to read the countless biblical quotes, as they're irrelevant to what are my beliefs, I did read the non quote parts of posts. rgreen said "....As far though, as concerns the times we live in, I do have beliefs that are far different from much of today's society. However, I feel no compulsion to force my beliefs upon others. In fact, I believe such dictates to be unchristian."

I just took that at face value and saw rgreen's inclusion of multitudes of Bible quotes as an adjunct to illustrate his/her personal Christian beliefs, rather than as underlying judgments that, "I'm right, you're wrong, I know better than you" or as a ploy to convert me. Some would consider me naive, but I'd prefer that, over being considered assumptious.

Saw this on Facebook today and it made want to put it here.

I'll go back and read all the responses later. For now, I'll say three things...

• I love the LORD my God with all my heart, all my soul, all my mind, and all my strength.

• A church is better defined as a hospital. A place for the hurting and wounded of this world. A haven from this world, not a seat of judgement. It's not for us to judge, but it is our job to love. To love with abandon, especially those who are unloved.

• And last, if you visit a church, I hope you find peace, grace, love, and all the answers you desire, regardless of your motivation for entering the place.

aktillery, remember in the old gw, there was a 150 post thread limit which doesn't exist here.

Re arguing online ... I think this is a fairly apt representation! :-)

Thank you Katrina. Going back to my very first post, just as 'spirituality' can mean different things to different people, even among the many individuals and denominations that all consider themselves 'Christian' - the differences in beliefs can be complicated. This is why I find that quoting the scriptures is a better tact than simply giving my opinions. When I do offer an opinion, I try to base it on scriptural foundations.

It is also true though, that I do believe the Bible teaches a 'truth'. I believe it is 'The Truth'. I also know many people will disagree. Concerning Bible teachings, I personally do not agree that it is 'scriptural' for Christians to believe and teach different things. However, just as we all grow in knowledge concerning the world around us as we age and mature, it is scriptural for Christians to have varying levels of Biblical understanding.

One good example is found in the book of Acts Chpt, 18, verses 24 - 28:

"Now a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus. He was an eloquent man, competent in the Scriptures.
He had been instructed in the way of the Lord. And being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things concerning Jesus, though he knew only the baptism of John. He
began to speak boldly in the synagogue, but when Priscilla and Aquila
heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more
accurately.
And
when he wished to cross to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and
wrote to the disciples to welcome him. When he arrived, he greatly
helped those who through grace had believed,
for he powerfully refuted the Jews in public, showing by the Scriptures that the Christ was Jesus."

kswl,

as far as pig latin - Ha! - good one. I did not mean to offend, its just easier to quote Book, chapter and verse than to write it completely out, I think of it as more of an Abbreviation, but my intent was not to talk in a secret code, that would be offensive.

Rgreen, do you fancy yourself Priscilla or Aquila?

Katrina ellen, i was mostly referring to rgreen's offensive citation of the verse of Jesus' cry on the cross to forgive the ones who crucified hum, for they know not what they do. Not only was it a gross overstatement to compare internet forum squabbling to persecution and crucifixion, but i would also remind rgreen of Lloyd Bentsen's famous rebuttal when Dan Quayle compared himself to JFK :-)

i actually appreciate the citing of chapters and verses rather than having it all written out-- it is like adding a link... if someone reading the post is very interested in reading a lot a scripture, they can look it up...

this would be a really long post if all of us starting copying parts of chapters of different books we have read that support our own beliefs!!!

kswl, you made me curious about the definition of persecution, so I looked up the def. in Webster: "to treat someone cruelly or unfairly because of race or religious or political beliefs". I would call a bully someone who persecutes because the child who is bullied carries the scars, even if it is just verbal. So it is open to interpretation, but of course for us to compare verbal chastisement to what Christ suffered, there is no comparison, yet persecution does happen albeit on a different level. To me, I take the meaning of those words (Luke 23:34) to also have a practical application in our lives - for instance, my study Bible notes say about this verse, ".....but Christ's prayer while they were in the very act of mocking Him is an expression of the boundless compassion of divine grace". I take that to mean when others treat us poorly, God's standard for our lives is to forgive - to love our enemies - His standards are so high they are not humanly possible without His Grace. What I take away from someone quoting that verse is that they know the importance of forgiveness - its a good thing. I am not saying I speak for your view of that, but I must respectfully disagree that rgreen was being irreverent, but then that's whats great about this forum, we can hear what others think and how they arrive at their views. God Bless.

Well said Katrina.

As far as who I might fancy myself to be lol... no one really... Romans 12: 3.

1 Cor. 3: 1 - 9:

"But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ. I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready,
for
you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife
among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way? For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not being merely human? What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. He who plants and he who waters are one, and each will receive his wages according to his labor. For we are God’s fellow workers. You are God’s field, God’s building."

In fact, I had just said that it's not anything to do with my opinions,
but simply the scriptures that are doing the talking. All I am doing is
presenting the relevant passages. I am not even talking directly to
those who may not care about what I have to say. Again though, I ought
to consider it a complement that anyone is even the slightest bit
interested in what I write.

One last time rgreen.......you are not presenting relevant passages. The passages youve selected are almost annoyingly irrelevant. For all your professed devotion to it, you are using the bible as a kind of scriptural fortune cookie. Ask question, spit out verse. If you brought even the tiniest bit of discernment to the process i could respect your attempts to use the bible to illustrate your points. But since you don't, and the verses dont illuminate any point or add anything to the discussion, your use of scripture is simply irritating. And with that i am over and out.

Try today's Bloom County. http://www.gocomics.com/bloom-county

John Morley, 1st Viscount Morley of Blackburn and Ben Shahn

What do people mean when they say they have a personal relationship with God? I hear that all the time.

The problem with Annie's statement, "You have not converted a man because you have silenced him." is that some people feel a relentless and never ending compulsion that the whole world believe and think exactly like them. I have never figured out exactly why, it is perhaps something genetic, because some folks have it and some folks don't. Some folks are so convinced that if you don't think and believe exactly as they do about relevant passages in a book, you will have eternal torture, so it is reasonable that their concern for you would be to try and stop that from happening to you. Again, the problem is that there is absolutely no reason to believe (based on any material facts) that you will suffer eternal torture, so it's hard to reconcile the two types of people. I would hope that "thanks but no thanks, I'll never believe as you do" would be enough, but that really sticks in some folks craw, so I never say that. I just smile politely and change the subject. I know when I have told my narcissist father at times that I will never believe or do what he is trying to manipulate me into doing, that just ups the emotional ante. He doesn't stop and leave me alone, he tries to ratchet up the pressure. In my personal experience, the folks who are TRULY concerned about my mortal soul going to hell, rarely mention that. In fact, I can pretty much instinctively tell when someone has a meaningful relationship with god and really cares about me and thinks that might be something good for me too, and when they don't and instead the discussion is all about ego and them. Funny, but when I sense that the care and concern is more about me than about them, I don't mind a FEW bible verses, I truly get that. And the kind of person I am describing here usually leaves it at that. A few important ones for me to mull over, and they are satisfied that they have done their best. They can let go and let god.

Mayflowers, that can be a very deep question.

If we are talking about the God of the Bible, there are a few scriptures that would provide some insight. The first 2 that I would think that apply can be found at Isaiah 41:8 and James 2:23 where a human, Abraham, is said to be considered by God himself, as his friend.

So, how do you become friends with someone? You get to know them.

If, after learning the things they like and don't like, the things they find important and are interested in, their opinions on subjects, and whether they are a good, caring person, you find that you have things in common and you want to draw close to them (James 4: 8), then you begin to spend time talking to them, and listen when they talk with you.

Of course, even though the process is similar, a relationship with God is not exactly the same as developing a relationship with a peer. (Psalms 113: 5 -7) However, he invites us to come to know him as both a friend, and as a father. The first 2 chapters of proverbs speak very caringly as a father would to a child. A word of advice when reading these, and many scriptures... gender is a construct of language. There are indeed differences, but whether you would be a son, or a daughter, the message and the expression of care is the same.

So, by reading the Bible, we come to know about God. We come to learn how he feels about issues. What is important to him, what he cares about, his standards, and what he expects from us.

Another way that we can learn about God, is to learn about Jesus. The Bible says he was 'the exact representation' of God. (Heb. 1: 3; Colossians 1: 15) For those who have yet to know whether Jesus was God's son, it does require some exploration. (Acts 17: 11, 12)

As we discussed further up the thread, just as we try to keep a strong bond with our human friends and relatives, we do our best to act in a way that does not offend them. So after learning about God, as a child to a parent, or one friend to another, we try to 'please' him and make him happy.

So, a personal relationship with God means that we can actually know God, and he know us. (John 17:3)

Lastly, one of the things that is important to any friendship is knowing their name. (Matt. 6: 9) How embarrassing is it when we meet someone, are drawn to them, and can't remember, or never learned their name. Now, a lot of people will say that God has 'many names', but most of those are titles... God; Creator; The Almighty; Lord; The Most High... etc.

God though, has given one name throughout the scriptures. In most cases, and in most translations, it has been replaced with the word LORD in capital letters. In English, God's name is most closely spelled with 4 consonants - YHWH (ancient Hebrew did not have vowels as we have today.)

Some bible translations have removed it entirely, but they usually tell you in the 'Forward', 'Acknowledgements', or somewhere in the first few pages. In the King James Bible it is found in a few places. The first instance is found at Exodus 6:3. However, the New King James Bible has taken it out and replaced it with 'LORD'.

Just as many names are pronounced differently in varying languages, God's name is often pronounced differently around the world. The most common English spelling has been Jehovah. However, Yahweh is a close second, and the shortened reference- Jah - is very common. I personally have no problem with any particular pronunciation. The important thing that God asks is to not use it in a 'vain' or useless manner.

What a lot of people don't know is that they've been using it all their lives. Every time someone says hallelujah, they are saying... Praise Be to Jah - or Jehovah.

When you read many Bible names you are using God's name...

Isaiah means - Salvation of (by) Jehovah.
Jeremiah means - Jehovah Exalts.

Elijah means- My God is Jehovah.

You get the idea. Wherever you see -jah, or -iah in a Bible name, there's a good chance it refers to Jah, or Jehovah.

If you encounter conflict over using God's name, research it for yourself. Even Wikipedia has a fairly good article on God's name and why it is often replaced.

These are basics, but the Bible does offer an outline on getting close to Jehovah and having a personal relationship with him. Now though, when you read 'The Lord's Prayer' you will have a better understanding of what it means, and why we would ask these things of God.

Mayflowers, I have a love/hate relationship with my MIL. A couple of years ago, I would have made a nasty comment or two, went to confession, gotten my "Rx" from the priest, said a couple of our fathers, made a couple of acts of contrition and called it done and felt nothing in the process. Fast forward to yesterday evening. While washing dishes, I silently spoke to my friend Jesus and asked Him to help me be more compassionate and patient with my MIL who is going through some health issues. I talked it out with Him like I was talking on the phone to my best friend. No, I didn't hear a voice answering me (if I did, I might seek some help) but I felt His presence all the same. So when she called later and told me that she was tired of me keeping my ds from her (she just saw him on Monday but is showing signs of dementia), I calmly told her that I would try to get by her house later in the week. I feel like He helped me and I did right by Him in that circumstance. This is just one example of my relationship with Him. So yeah, it's like I have a good friend. At least that's what I consider a personal relationship with Him to be. Somebody else might see it different.

Mayflower, it's become what I say. It's one thing to "believe" in God (I like the fairy reference), and quite another to be in a daily relationship with the living God. You can talk to Him, He can talk to you, cares about you, etc.

It's a long thread, with a lot of posts. I'm sure my response was lost among the many others. I explained at least twice...

* Last Friday at 8:29AM - That's probably Eastern Time.

and again at...

* Last Friday at 8:55AM

mayflowers, that's a great question, its foundational to the Christian faith. Two words-Gods Grace. We are saved by Grace, Gods unmerited favor. Ephesians 2:8-9: For by grace you have been saved through faith, and not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

We cannot earn our way, it is not who we are but who God is. It is a free GIFT from God. Then we can fellowship with Him and know Him through his Word and the Holy Spirit which helps give us understanding.

Also Romans 10:9-10, 13 and Romans 3:24. Many more but this is basic.

Deee, in an effort to 'clear the air' (so to speak), what in particular troubles you?

To take it a step further, and just to add to the many aspects we've all discussed thus far, maybe a discussion of the word 'spirit' (the root word underlying the subject of this entire thread) would shine some light onto why I chose to use that scripture in my response to Katrina.

The literal English translation of the Ancient Greek word for 'spirit' is pneuma. You may recognize that it relates to the English words for things relating to 'air'. In Ancient Hebrew, the word is ruach.

The meaning can range from air, to wind, to breath, and because it's a similar idea to wind... to unseen, or non-physical forces.

In English, we often use the word 'spirit' in similar metaphysical fashion as it is used in the Bible. We might say for example... 'the spirit behind his words were...'

We might understand such use to mean... 'the thrust of the message was...'

The word spirit can also be used to refer to a supporting principal (essence) or the emotion (attitude) behind the words...

"That was said with a very loving spirit."

or

"In the spirit of reconciliation."

In such cases it takes on the meaning of 'atmosphere'.

Whether a person is Biblical-minded or not, a person who considers themselves as 'spiritual' often recognizes these interrelationships of meanings, and how words, things, examples (metaphysical or literal) can carry through to refer to other similar messages.

Especially is this so when there are shared experiences between people and groups. Therefore, when I use a scripture that directly describes an example where Jesus forgave, and asked someone else to forgive (his father) the people who were responsible for his condition, it is shorthand for... 'remember, Jesus didn't hold things against those causing ill-treatment, we shouldn't either.'

The spirit and principals behind the example of forgiveness set by Jesus are the same we should show. The situation matters much less than the essence, or spirit behind the message.

I'm sorry if anyone wants to read more into it than that, but we are on a public forum. I have no way to pull someone aside and talk to them privately. Doing so isn't necessary. It was a simple message that I had/have no reason to hide. If anyone wants to read into it more than was intended... well, that's out of my control. Others have said above that they understood my meaning. That too helps me to not over-think my use of the scripture in that case.

In my opinion, that explanation was

gib·ber·ish

ˈjib(ə)riSH/

noun

noun: gibberish

unintelligible or meaningless speech or writing; nonsense.

dee and gray wings, let me tell you how I took that verse, since it was directed to me. At the time of that post I was feeling persecuted, go back and read some of the comments, Rgreen along with myself were being falsely accused of belonging to a cult etc. etc. Like I've said before, I'm not perfect, just forgiven. I was also offended by the comments directed to rgreen who is a fellow believer and I believe I know his intent was for the good. I was fighting back and it was my weakness and rgreen simply reminded me of God's forgiveness, how God forgave my many sins and sent Jesus to die for them. His post was a timely reminder and was kind.

Roarah opened this Pandora's box knowing full well the road it may take. I say there's plenty of disgust to go around.

deee, I would find the same offensive, but I think you are most offended by "they know not what they do" which speaks of spiritual blindness. We are all spiritually blind until Gods grace makes us alive in Christ. They misunderstood what was being said because it is only understood by the power of the Holy Spirit which God gives to us when we are "born again". We are a new creation in Christ, the "old man" has died and we are given a new desire for God, to know Him better and to follow Him, hence it is a re-birth. I know this may all sound strange, which is why it is said that God works in mysterious ways.

What is so wrong with the thread? I think it's a great topic. If anyone doesn't like it, or any of the posts, they do not have to participate. Because people. like yourself and others, do keep participating proves even more that the topic and the thread is popular. In fact, it seems very disingenuous to even post that it's some sort of 'Pandora's Box'. You'd have to be paying close attention to it, and yet complaining lol. Too funny for words.

And to all those who feel the need to nitpick and try to accuse myself and others of hypocrisy, belonging to cults, etc... seriously? It's time to look in the mirror. Everyone can see right through the farce. If you don't like what's being said... especially when you supposedly take offense at things not even spoken to you, no one is forcing you to read, let alone take it to heart. Jesus was very blunt about people who were like white-washed tombs. They make a show to those looking on, but inside they are unclean. It would be good to avoid fitting into that category would it not?

So far, I've chosen to accept most of the motives at face value, but at this point, things seem obvious. Instead of continually attacking the opinions of myself, Katrina, and others, why not actually contribute something instead of tearing down? I'm glad it is God doing the judging. He is the one who can read hearts. Since it is not my place to judge and can't read the hearts, and the erstwhile explanations of the accused seem to make no difference in the attitudes shown... well, like I say... it's in God's hands.

The rest of us will continue with up building discussions, let's see if the ones tearing down will continue their efforts.

What is so wrong with the thread? I think it's a great topic. If anyone
doesn't like it, or any of the posts, they do not have to participate.
Because people. like yourself and others, do keep participating proves
even more that the topic and the thread is popular. In fact, it seems
very disingenuous to even post that it's some sort of 'Pandora's Box'.
You'd have to be paying close attention to it, and yet complaining lol.
Too funny for words.

You know full well the thread would have faded away a long time ago. You and your co-hort have chosen to keep it alive for God knows what reason. Ego seems to be a driving force. Seems the only thing you're accomplishing is annoying people. It's very much a Pandora's box and the irony is that it was created by a self-proclaimed atheist.

There needs to be a thumbs down.

To me all these bible verses sound like this :)

Ego? Ego?

There is an enormous amount of projection going on in this thread.

"There needs to be a thumbs down."

Amen sister!

Two Likes!!

I'm with you Terriks! The OP asked if I believe in God. Well, not in a Biblical God. I do not belong to a church, because I feel that too much weight is given to the writings in a book-be it the Bible, the Torah, the Quoran or any other scriptural writings. And when it's down in writing, it's taken as the law by those who follow it. But I always feel like that law needs some rules to define the intent, and those laws definitely are open to interpretation.

Basically, I believe in a spiritual presence. If I were to describe my spirtual beliefs, I'd lean toward Pagan and the worship of Mother Earth. My 'God' is whatever spiritual being(s) that bring me comfort when I'm low or lost. I say a prayer to 'God' but it's not an entity-more like putting my fears, wishes, blessings out to the Universe for the psychic energies to pick up and return as needed.

I can say, without a doubt that I do not believe in Jesus Christ. But I won't knock anyone who does!

My eldest daughter is an atheist and it does bother me to some extent. She does not believe in an afterlife or a spiritual deity (she refers to the Flying Spaghetti Monster) but I believe with all my heart there is an afterlife. Not Heaven, however, and definitely no Hell.

I was raised on the fringes of organized religion. My mother was raised Presbyterian and my fathers family was non-practicing Catholic. We were not pushed in to any particular religion, but my siblings would identify themselves as Christian if asked. I've got no problem singing Hymns or saying the Lords Prayer-to me those bring comfort and that is always good. But on the same token, singing rock songs brings me comfort.

I find my soul is refreshed by Nature. Put me by the sea and I am re-energies (those negative ions!) I am utterly entranced by the Cosmos and I believe in evolution. My beliefs do have a science base-but Paganism also has a scientific bent.

I won't judge a person on their religion-and I'd ask those who have a different belief than I do to not judge me. I've been told I'll burn in Hell because I don't believe in the Bible. I can't speak of other organized religions, because I live in a very Christian dominated place, so my experiences have been limited by those who've judged me and proclaim to be a Christian. On the other hand, I've known people who proclaim their devotion to Jesus Christ who are the nicest, least judgemental, if somewhat naive in their world views, people I've met.