can we see more of the floor plan to the bottom of the image; in the pantry, arch, fridge area?

benjesbride,

Here you go!

Buel,

Great feedback! I'm going to process and respond later this morning.
The overall envelope/footprint can't change but the layout sure can change!

The pantry can't move due to the stair location. I have an overflow pantry for uncommon items right in the beginning off the kitchen as shown above.

I don't know if I hit all of buehl's points, but here's my fantasy for your kitchen:

You lose a few uppers, but gain wonderful windows. I didn't read anything about the view, so I'm hoping it isn't of the neighbor's kennel. The trash is close enough to both prep and clean-up areas to be shared. You can prep facing the great room or the windows. If you need another upper cabinet, the small window to the right of the range can be eliminated. I pulled the fridge forward to facilitate opening the doors fully.

I would change out the base cabinets for all drawers, or as many as possible. Good luck!

GW discussions--all drawer bases

GW discussions--dishes stored in drawers

buehl,

Amazing such a simple suggestion would have such a big impact. I stressed symmetry with the designer so perhaps I need to lean off that a bit, especially the sink. The better half really wanted a flat island and I too feel like everything is exposed. Would you simply suggest a raised island?

Mammagoose,

Thanks for the sketch! I assume that is a prep sink in the island but what is the area called out as dishes? Just a cabinet?

It would be somewhat tough to give up the uppers as its somewhat of a small kitchen. I'm a sucker for windows as I'm big into landscape. The view is the side of the neighbors house but its a couple hundred feet away. As you'd guess I'd landscape a view.

How do you feel about the overall asymmetry and the dishwasher being so visible?

I like balance but I'm not particular about symmetry. I should say, though, that I live in a older home (late 1920's), which does not have an open floor plan. It's a bungalow, m/l, without an entry hall, and part of the fridge is visible from the front door. Visitors rarely enter through the front door, so that's OK.

Yes, that's a prep sink, and the cabinet marked 'dishes' would be a drawer base convenient to unloading the DW. Since I took away your upper cabs, I wanted to point out an alternate location for dish storage. Many folks new to GW have never considered storing dishes in drawers, or having all drawer bases in the kitchen. DW being visible would not be an issue for me, but they can be paneled to look like a cabinet base, especially if you want a vintage style kitchen.

There are choices to make and personal preferences to consider, but a functional kitchen is everyone's goal.

I suggest a single-level island with a prep sink - no cleanup sink or DW. That gives you a great expanse of counter to work on - school/science projects, rolling out and decorating cookies, crafts, wrapping gifts, staging food for a buffet or appetizers for a party, etc.

Just make sure the island isn't too deep - you need to be able to reach at least the half-way point to clean it. For most people, 60" (5') is the limit.

mamagoose, completely agree. Thanks for the additional feedback. It seems your layout is on par with buehl's suggestion.

buehl, I can see all of the above applying in this situation!

The challenge is going to be getting a range, sink, dw on that wall without it looking too crammed.

Do you two think that will be the case?

Perhaps I take this feedback thus far and discuss with the kitchen designer and bring back the new layout.

Here is something to look over before you talk to the designer. The first is your original elevation, then three others with the DW, sink and range on the same wall. There are three different window/upper cabinet configurations, and in one there are pullouts on each side of the range. Note--I didn't change the measurements along the bottom:

Click to enlarge

This might help....just additional information about the setup of the Kitchen, etc.

Mamagoose, thanks for taking the time to sketch that out! Great to see folks help out to this extent.

Visually the upper right looks the best but don't think I'll be able to get away with the limited cabinet space especially if there is a prep sink in the island. Lower right seems like the next best layout.

Couple questions...how do you feel about that upper floating in-between the window and range hood? Also the left side terminates just short of the dining room which will have a double window on that wall. Should a counter depth wall be put in to better define the spaces?

buehl,

Thanks for posted the bigger picture as a whole. Do you see any other areas that may need attention? Looks like you have an older view as it doesn't show the revised mudroom with the additional pantry...unless you are recommended what you posted above? Thanks!

Another thought I had....

1) Put the range where the fridge is (hood might look odd in this spot?)

2) Fridge next to the dining room (always need to grab something once you're seated!)

3) Clean up sink where the range was and put a triple window in front of sink (I get some symmetry!)

4) DW to right of sink

5) Prep sink in island closest to dining

6) MW remains in island closer to range side

7) Trash pull out could either remain next to prep or go to left of clean up sink

Is this a derailed freight train or are we working with some potential? lol

Your welcome--it's mostly copy and paste. I don't care for the floating cabinet. I thought about putting some open shelves there instead, but you mentioned needing the cabinet space. If you changed the hood to a more traditional style it might work better. Here's a drawing of that option, with wider chimney hoods in the other drawings. Also, I put a taller single cabinet in the LL drawing.

Sorry, I was typing as you were posting. I think that sounds like a great plan! I'm off for a day of thrifting, but if no one else is around to help, I'll try to do some rearranging later. I enjoy puzzles. :)

No worries....appreciate it! Happy thrifting!

The traditional style hood would definitely look much better.

I worked up this variation overnight:

It provides ample dish storage b/w the sink and DR as well as a big window

Plus...it has 28.5" deep counters along the window wall - 3" deeper than standard.

From Family Room:

.

From DR:

2D Overhead:

Elevation - Window Wall:

Elevation - Refrigerator Wall:

Elevation - Island:

Other Information:

Zone Map:

I did shorten the wall next to the refrigerator. If you do not want to do that, then pull the refrigerator out as MamaGoose suggested earlier. Another option is to move the washer & dryer to the opposite wall and then recess a standard depth refrigerator slightly into the wall behind it - but only as much as is needed to make the refrigerator carcass/box flush with the end of the side wall.

Note that the window is counter-depth. This gives you a great view, lots of light, and great point of interest. The deeper sink wall gives you extra depth for both workspace, 3 more inches behind the sink so (1) you don't have to worry about what faucet will fit and (2) reduces splashing of the window.

Alternatively, instead of deeper counters, you could bump the window out 7" or so. See MamaDadaPaige's window in this thread. There are other counter-depth windows as well in the thread.

http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2484108/counter-height-window-pictures-please

A short while back, the folks here at Gardenweb - many of the same ones that are helping you now - fixed the problems in my kitchen plan which was very similar to yours. Here's a rendering of the design now (not yet built):

And while my frig looks counter-depth, it's actually a standard-depth frig (less expensive) and there is a cavity that extends into the room behind it (where your laundry room is) to accomodate its additional depth. Might be something worth considering, to save you money and give you more cubic feet of frig space.

Like you, I started off wanting symmetry. And per mama goose's comments above, I think I've ended up with balance. I'm still researching hoods and thinking about if I want a cabinet or open shelves (as shown) between the hood and the window, and if I want them to go right up against the hood and window, or for there to be a few inches of space (as shown).

My island design is only 6 to 12" shorter than yours, and I've shown it with 3 stools. 4 would fit fine, but it will mostly be two of us empty nesters and I decided not to cram them all in. I'm concerned about the 5 stools shown on your island. Perhaps the curved overhang makes enough of a difference.

I hope you keep this great community updated on your progress!

In the design I did, the island is approx 9' wide and with the curve is big enough to fit 5 stools.

Refrigerator...

You stated:

"...The fridge is opposite of the dining room however the fridge is such a large dominating appliance so I like its location from that perspective..."

in your original post, have you changed your mind?

The one place I do things differently than beuhl and mama is that I actually prefer my prep sink on the same counter run as my cooktop. My thought is I don't want to prep and then "carry" it across the aisle to the cooktop to cook it. Anytime I've had a setup similar to that, I've found that I just wound up washing the food at the sink and then prepping next to the cooktop and invariably I'd have wet spots all across my floor where I carried the items.

In my new kitchen, my prep sink will be on the same side as my cooktop and my cleanup sink will be on the island along with my DW. I know people talk about dirty dishes on the counter, but I will have a deep sink, and when I'm prepping, DH is usually trying to help clean as I go. And my feeling is in an open kitchen you'll either see the dirty dishes on the perimeter counter or on the island counter. To me that's not a huge difference. :)

I bring this up as another thing to consider. Neither way is right or wrong.

The proposed arrangement of (left-to-right):

Refrigerator + Sink + DW + Range

causes additional issues.

• There will be major zone-crossing and the work zones would be mixed together.

• The DW will be in the way during meal prep

• The island would either have to be turned 90 degrees or you lose the easy access of the island to use as a Prep Zone b/c it will no longer be across from the Cooking Zone, it will be around the corner. If you turned the island, the island than becomes a barrier island b/w the refrigerator and both Prep & Cooking Zones.

• Dish storage will force people to cross into the Prep & Cooking Zones when setting the table

• You will most likely not be able to cleanup while meal prep is going b/c of the congestion caused by the arrangement of the primary work zones

CPArtist - note that I provided a Prep Zone both b/w the sink and range and on the island. This way, either preference is accounted for!

Regarding dirty dishes - the difference is that the perimeter is farther away, tends to recede into the distance, and has the island to distract from the view of the dirty dishes on the perimeter. In a 2D layout you can't tell the difference, but in real life, it does make a difference.

Regarding the corner - corner susans actually provide pretty good storage. In fact, for larger/heavier items, it's often a better solution b/c you just rotate the shelves and what you need is right in front of you with less lifting from the top shelf needed than from a bottom or even middle drawer (b/c there are only two shelves spaced out in the vertical height, not three drawers.)

I think corner susans work best when used for pots & pans or small appliances. They can be used for other items as well, but they work particularly well for pots/pans/small appliances.

I agree with Keywest if your only option is a blind corner - those can be a nightmare.

Here's a mockup in a plan of what I was talking about.

note that I provided a Prep Zone both b/w the sink and range and on the island. This way, either preference is accounted for!

I'm just showing a different view of it. I know for myself, if I had both sinks like you show, I'd only use the cleanup sink to prep so the prep sink would become a waste of money. I hate dripping across my floor as it creates an additional hazard to have water on the floor. (Don't ask me how I know this.)

Also having the prep sink on the perimeter gives more space on that perimeter between sink and stove since most prep sinks are much smaller than the cleanup sinks.

Also as an aside for others planning a kitchen (especially those of us going into our "golden" years), another thing to consider is that having the prep sink on the same wall as the cooktop is easier, especially for someone who has limited mobility.

Regarding dirty dishes - the difference is that the perimeter is farther away, tends to recede into the distance, and has the island to distract from the view of the dirty dishes on the perimeter. In a 2D layout you can't tell the difference, but in real life, it does make a difference.

Beuhl, I very much understand about perspective and visual distance, since I teach it in my drawing classes. :) However the distance here is not huge, so really won't make a difference in how we perceive the dishes. However the island does act as a barrier to break up our view. On that I agree with you. However, a dirty dish is a dirty dish, whichever counter it is on, which is why I prefer a deep sink. ;)

What I'm saying is that while many prefer not to have the cleanup sink in the island, that there are also those of us who prefer to have it on the island.

Personally I prefer not to zig zag either in terms of steps back and forth. First is beuhls and then is mine. It's numbered in terms of the steps we normally take from fridge, to sink, to prep, to stove, to table, to cleanup.

All I have to say is everyone's feedback and time invested in a stranger on a forum none the less is incredible. You're like Houzz Super Heroes!

I'm going to process to ensure I'm coming back with well thought out questions.

Buehl,
I'm open to the placement of the fridge. Right now its a learning process for me so I'm in listening mode. We haven't focused much on the kitchen based on our past/current lifestyles but we plan to be in this house for a long time so we want to ensure we get this right.

I work with many commercial designers and architects to design and develop building products so listening and putting it all together is what I do best. I need the creativity and expertise of others to do it though!

And just so I'm clear, beuhl's layout is excellent. As it usually is. I'm just showing another way that could work well depending on what the OP prefers.

I agree with cpartist that having the prep sink on the same row as the range would be optimal, but having the clean up sink on the island would drive me nuts. I'm definitely not a dry and put dishes away as I go kind of person, so always have some things out on a mat to dry. I would much rather have this against a wall on the perimeter rather than where I sit and eat or visit. I would also rather be able to prep and talk to people sitting at the island. I'm used to a galley kitchen though where carrying thinks across and aisle is a must, and really isn't that drippy because I often have things in bowls by that point ready for cooking. I think a lot of this depends how you use your kitchen and what kind of clean up person you are.

I think a lot of this depends how you use your kitchen and what kind of clean up person you are.

Exactly! :)

With two little ones I think its going to be tough to go to a undermount sink to fit a 30" base. The larger the sink the better. The way we do dishes needs two strainers as well. Rinse on one side, stack on the other side.

I know we'd sacrifice some more advantageous flow but the more we think about the activities that will take place at the island and the amount of dishes that are created the sink is going to need to go to the wall.

Any ideas off the cuff to get a 36" base on that wall?

Otherwise I think we have some really good feedback/images to take back to the designer to discuss for our next revision.

CPArtist and others - I actually have the same preference. However, I've noticed that the majority of people here prefer to prep facing people on an island or peninsula, so this is usually how it works to give them the best of both. In addition, if it's b/w prepping on the island or putting the cleanup sink in the island or it makes a difference for workflow, then I would choose prepping in the island.

I prep facing the wall b/w my corner prep sink and cooktop. We have no island (but we do have a peninsula) - so that may be why. As I stated above, if I had to have one work zone in an island - I'd put the prep zone there rather than the cleanup zone. Partly b/c of the dirty dish visibility issue (OK, maybe a major reason) and partly b/c cleanup sinks and the cleanup zone take up too much valuable real estate on an island - unless it's a continent!

.

Sorry if I'm coming off as negative - I don't mean to. I like having different ideas - I often revise my initial ideas based on comments all of you make!

I guess I'm in my "test, analyze, report issues & results" mode from work! (Major test prep/execution/issue reporting going on a work lately!)

whaas_5a, you've been given a lot of good advice today. Here are your ideas from this AM, with the DW still on the left side of the sink, which gives you a secondary prep area on the right side of the sink. The range and fridge are a few feet farther apart, but as you said, the fridge is more convenient to the DR.

Whaas I think you have made a wise decision based on your needs and that's what is important. :)

As I stated above, if I had to have one work zone in an island - I'd put the prep zone there rather than the cleanup zone. Partly b/c of the dirty dish visibility issue (OK, maybe a major reason) and partly b/c cleanup sinks and the cleanup zone take up too much valuable real estate on an island - unless it's a continent!

Maybe it's not as much of an issue to me because of my wonderful deep farmhouse sink. As long as I can plan a kitchen to my liking, I will have a farmhouse sink.

.Sorry if I'm coming off as negative - I don't mean to. I like having different ideas - I often revise my initial ideas based on comments all of you make!

Not at all. Like you, I love seeing all the ideas and it's because of seeing all the ideas that I was able to figure out what will work best for my own kitchens.

With two little ones I think its going to be tough to go to a undermount sink to fit a 30" base. The larger the sink the better. The way we do dishes needs two strainers as well. Rinse on one side, stack on the other side.

I always find these types of comments interesting when people have DWs. No need to rinse or stack. Just open the DW and plop 'em in. DWs work better when they are just scraped. The detergent is designed to mix with the enzymes in the food to do a thorough job cleaning. If everything is rinsed off, there are no food enzymes to improve the cleaning power.

Sure, there are some things that must be rinsed. We all get to know our DWs after awhile. I forgot that I need to rinse my green smoothie glass as I had gotten out of the habit of making them and now have a glass sitting on my counter soaking with hot soapy water in it because the DW just baked the green scum on the inside. Will remember to rinse that from now on. But there is very little else I need to rinse off.

So, just scrape, load in DW. Kitchen is clean without any dirty dish pile-up. Make it quick and easy. I'm lazy but like things clean so that is my motto.

Regarding the clean-up vs. prep sink on the island debate, I have to side with cpartist on this. But since I rarely have dish pile-ups around my sink due to the above scrape and plop method, I don't normally have a pile of dirty or clean dishes no matter where my sink would be located. For prepping/cooking, I like it all on one counter. I'd rather slide than carry and it keeps my floor cleaner.

My spouse and I are both full time working the same hours with a 2 and 5 year old so we don't load the dishwasher after every meal.

Perhaps sub the word rinse for scrape. One side gets the dirty dishes the other side stays open for scraping. Otherwise you're scrapping crap onto dirty dishes.

Hopefully that makes sense. Live it everyday.

My DH and I also both work full-time - and always have, even when the kids were young (I only took the 12 weeks the Family Leave & Medial Act allowed me when they were born.)

Like you Whaas, we only unload and reload the DW once a day - so the dirty dishes from the previous late evening, morning, and after school/work are mostly on the counter b/c we don't want to fill up the sink with dirty dishes that would then have to be moved to allow us to use the sink. It's better now that I have a prep sink so we can fill up some of the sink, but there are still dirty dishes on the counters.

So, to me, having the Cleanup Zone on an island would definitely be an issue! Do all of you who say you never let dirty dishes stack up really always immediately unload the DW when it's done and always load the dishes as you use them? If you say you put them in your deep sink, what about when you need that sink (unless you have a prep sink)?

Yes, a deep sink helps, but to me, it's not the full answer...life happens and things stack up.