Having been in contracting years ago, with around 20 years experience. I'd say this contract is unreasonable at best. Without completely picking it apart, there's not enough details. For instance who is providing the permits, exactly what quality/specs of the material the contractor is providing. Even down to the painting: One coat, two? Way too many questions.

Moving on to the payment schedule. It's outrageous. 20k down? Good grief, no work or materials even started and dump fees are expensive, but not that expensive. They say 3-4 months to complete, but expect the job to be paid in full in 2 months? You're asking for trouble should you go with this contractor, and I use the word contractor loosely.

What do you mean? 8 payments bi-weekly means it would be paid out in 4 months, not 2? Or am I reading this incorrectly?

Yes, u are correct. My bad, I read it weekly. Guess I was steaming from the 20k down and lack of details. Smoke must've gotten in my eyes. Think there's an old song about that.

Still, the payment schedule should be set up at progress stages. Let's say the crew doesn't show up for a couple of weeks. You're still paying. Or, the crew has this excuse or that excuse for no progress. You're still paying. This contract is scary the way it is now.

haha I feel ya. We have 3 other quotes, for big and medium sized companies. This guy is a one man band. We bid on a house he flipped and we loved it. We did not end up getting it, but bought one that needs renos and reached out to him. We will get clarifications on a lot of the quotes (paint layer, quality/specs of material etc), but just wanted to know if this is within a reasonable ball park before we decide.

He's gonna remodel that house like a flipper and pocket a huge bonus at your expense.

roof35: It must have been years ago? What is so unreasonable about 20% down on a contract for a 3-4 project with this scope of work? I can't make a call on the price without a lot more details from the OP but would not want to do that job for that price myself in the states considering the scope of work.

Meaning what? Why is that not good? I get it means he's cutting some corners, but what exactly in that quote should I worry about

To add to my previous post after seeing " he's a one man band" I would be extremely leary. Just no way 1 man without hiring a bunch of subs can cover the scope .Is he a GC subbing everything or what.You need to provide a lot more details to get a decent answer .Something is fishy here with only the details you have provided.

Precision: He does hire help. Ceilings, floors etc he will hire people from his own company to help him get it done. He provides contract and warranty on his work. I have seen 2 of his previous pieces of work and was blown away.

Also, for the record, another quote we got is from a large, very reputable company (over 200 person company), and they were provided the same scope of work. They came with a quote of about $150,000 including all finishes (not including appliances).

So both quotes are not that far off (almost identical), the guy above is a one man ban, the other guys are huge (with their own TV show on HGTV).

Precision: Hopefully you're not serious about 20% down on a 100k quote, when all that is needed to start off with is dump truck or dumpster fees. The "contractor" also wants a payment schedule based on weeks, nothing on progress. This is asking for trouble, there's nothing professional about it. It may have been years ago, but I'm still around a lot of contractors and none of them want $$$ for nothing, especially starting a job with little involved. Unless special order items or conditions warrant it. $20K to start and nothing to show for it is down right ludicrous especially considering the payment schedule proposed.

"He does hire help. Ceilings, floors etc he will hire people from his own company to help him get it done."

How is he a "one man band" then?

roof35: ", when all that is needed to start off with is dump truck or dumpster fees."

How about payroll, overhead,material and permits? You may have financed the HO's (strangers) project for them but I don't. I"m a contractor .Not their bank.

" I have seen this guys work and was very impressed."

I'd weigh his previous customer's comments over those on any online forum or those of an attorney.

Handing over 20K to anyone for nothing is just being foolish. Overhead will always be there. If a person or company is struggling and needs that much front money to keep them afloat, that person or company has serious problems and won't be around for long. Speaking of permits, I raised the issue there's no mention of permits, and now you assume it's included.

What material? The job should be done at progress stages. Nothing has changed over the years except there are more scammers out there. There's really not a lot of money needed for demo work, especially 20K. It smells of someone being on the verge of bankruptcy.

One of my job duties now is being inspector at times on State jobs. Multi million dollar projects are still being done at progress stages, not weekly draws.

You really should look into being hooked up with bank financing if you're having problems needing project money up front. You can write your own papers and get a % of the loan, or you can refer the party and get a smaller % of loan value.

Weekly draws and progress stages from what I have found amount to the same thing on most residential projects. I would have no problem financing the projects myself I just wonder why I should have to?If they can't fund their project why should I?

I be

lieve going to work for a complete stranger for nothing and spending my own money on their project is just foolish.

I have a deal with my bank.I don't loan money and they won't build walls.

I would be wary if the only examples of his work you see are for flip projects. The type of work done for a flip is usually very generic, and can be bland and basic. Decisions are made on cost/benefit not a specific client's needs and wishes. Is this guy going to give you the project you want or is it going to look like every other flip he's done? One of the ways some flippers control costs is by doing things the same way each time.

Is he ready for your instructions...would you mind if he says that he always runs trim tile at this height and width or he always places shampoo niches in this specific location?

Have you seen how well his work holds up in the long run? Most everything looks nice when it is first completed but if corners were cut during construction, problems will start to show in a few years.

Have a discussion about his payment terms and schedules. If this will be his only project and the people doing the work are his direct employees, biweekly payments are his way of managing cash flow. If he is using subs who are paid at completion of various stages, then he shouldn't have a problem with you making payments to him at those points in the project.

I hope that the material you posted is just a summary of the information this contractor has provided you, not the complete document!

Is this a cut-and-paste of the actual contract? If so it is a) woefully lacking in detail b) contains unacceptable terms of payment (such payments must be tied to actual progress milestones, not passage of time) and c) leave far too much "off the table" in that no allowance estimates for a vast range of finishing materials has been provided.

What city is this in? In the Toronto market (for example) to completely gut three floors of an entire 6-bedroom house, including gutting and renovating four baths and a kitchen, a realistic quote (including allowances for finishing materials) would be easily double what you have been quoted.

Precision, no way did I imply to use your own money. I have no idea where you get that, please quote where I implied it.

I realize you think it's cute about your bank building walls. However I believe every brick and mortar business uses a bank to their advantage. Sorry to hear you haven't learned the advantage. BTW, even when I was starting out in business it was a 101 business strategy .

Good luck on your venture.

I would be worried. Too much is not spelled out. A great book before you get started is called What Your Contractor Can't Tell You by Amy Johnston. I highly recommend it before you start your work.

I agree that payment should NOT be tied to a timeline but a schedule of finishing up certain things. So for example, 10% when demo is completed, 20% when drywall is hung and taped, etc.

Personally I would never hire a flipper as too many corners are cut.

As for your contract below, I'd be leery of the following plus lots of other questions but it's late at night and my brain is foggy:

MAIN FLOOR

• demo entire main floor except the exterior walls
• take out middle wall to make it open concept (what if there are problems or wiring or??)
• open the kitchen wall by approx 6' to make it open with the main floor
• do cathedral ceilings (How high are these cathedral ceilings? What goes up there once the ceilings are opened up? Etc)
• screw down existing plywood planks and PL and screw new 1/2" plywood to make it more solid
• install baffles in between all roof trusses
• new batts insulation on entire ceiling ( or if not enough room then we will spray foam insulation) ******** spray foam extra charge (What type of batts? What R value?)
• drywall/tape
• pull plumbing where needed for kitchen
• potlights throughout (l.e.d) (How many potlights? What size potlights? Are they closed potlights? Brand?)
• new outlets and switches (decor) dimmer switches extra (How many switches and where are the switches?)
• install hardwood and tiles (Is there extra if you want a special pattern or laid on the diagonal? What if you want a tile "rug" in the bathroom?)
• install new trim (What kind of trim? What size trim? Door trim? Window trim? Baseboard trim? Is it 3" baseboard or 8" baseboard? What about crown molding and how large?)
• paint ( How many coats?)
• install kitchen backsplash (Just a backsplash? You're not redoing the kitchen I take it? If you are, why isn't anything said about installing kitchen cabinets and appliances?)

SECOND FLOOR

• Demo entire floor except exterior walls
• expand master ensuite by going into linen closet and ensuite closet
• raise ceilings to cathedral (see above)
• one light fixture per room (no potlights in bedrooms)
• put baffles in between all trusses
• insulate the entire ceiling and drywall/tape (Insulate with what? What R value?)
• install tiles in bathrooms (How is he waterproofing the shower or bath? What is his procedure? How does he create the shower floor? Shower drain? If you want to learn and hear horror stories about poorly done bathrooms, I suggest going to the bathroom forum.)
• install new vanities
• install new toilets
• install new tub
• install shower glass in master bath
• new plugs and switches (decor) dimmers are extra cost (Again how many and where?)
• screw down existing plywood boards and PL and screw down new 1/2" plywood
• install new hardwood
• scrap and stain existing staircase to match new hardwood
• install new trim and baseboards (again see above)
• paint (again see above)

LOWER LEVEL (see above questions)

• demo floor and trim
• open walls to make the room open concept
• potlights throughout
• screw down existing plywood planks
• PL and screw down new 1/2" plywood
• install tiles in powder room
• install new hardwood
• install new toilet
• install new vanity
• install new trim and baseboards
• new outlets and switches (decor) dimmers extra
• paint

BASEMENT

• repaint

MATERIALS INCLUDED IN QUOTE

• disposal of garbage
• drywall
• batts insulation
• plumbing fittings and pipes (excluding shower systems and faucets) (what plumbing type fittings?)
• electrical wires and decor outlets and switches
• potlights (l.e.d)
• sheetrock/compound for plastering (1/2"? 1/4" ? 3/4"?)
• nails and screws
• primer and high end benjamin moore paint for walls (What is high end BM paint? Which one? Aura? What?)
• sherwin williams promar 400 flat for ceilings
• sherwin williams quali kote semigloss for trim and doors
• stain and clear coat for stairs
• smoke and carbon monoxide detectors (how many? Where?)

CLIENT TO PROVIDE MAIN MATERIALS (contractor will pickup supplies or have them delivered if necessary) (What if he deems it not necessary?)

• hardwood/laminate
• tiles
• shower system
• faucets
• light fixtures (excluding potlight)
• tub
• vanities
• granite/ quarts countertops
• kitchen cabinets
• trim and doors
• mirrors
• appliances
• toilets

PROJECT WILL REQUIRE 3-4 MONTHS TO COMPLETE

TOTAL PRICE TO BE PAID TO CONTRACTOR ($100,000)

$20,000 DEPOSIT

bi weekly payments of $10,000 ( 8 payments)

IF CATHEDRAL CEILINGS ARE ONLY ON MAIN FLOOR AND NOT UPSTAIRS TAKE OFF ($10,000)

It sounds like a really really low bid, with poor specs. As in, the quality might just match the price.

I don't think that the fact that you "liked" his work weighs any in his favor. Flippers are all about smoke and mirrors, not substance. Homeowners with little renovation experience don't have the ability to judge quality through the smokescreen of "updated" finishes over poorly done bones.

For the work described, double that price would be low. Triple would be ballpark for lower end finishes. An average kitchen is 55K, and an average bath is 17K. You're also redoing systems and doing structural alterations. Which, I would hope involve a structural engineer, as well as a design professional.

There is no worse remodel than a poorly designed open concept. No one thinks through the locations of the needed infrastructure until it's too late. Where do the HVAC ducts go? What about all of the electrical receptacles? Light switches? Do you have your furniture placement planned for a proper lighting plan?

Without a well documented design, you are not only winging some very important decisions, but you also have zero recourse if the contractor decides to place all of the light switches for the new great room in a dozen single switches by the foyer, and with no 3 way switches so anything could be controlled from any other location. Or, you have a new vaulted ceiling and new can lights---that point across the room on that sloped ceiling rather than down because there was no specifying which type of recessed lighting was to be used. And the room is freezing because the insulation in that new ceiling is inadequate, and the ductwork is all screwed up because there were no walls to run the trunk lines in.

You first need a design. With proper specs. Then you can get meaningful bids. Bids that won't be so laughably low and poorly specified.

As a DIY engineer, I just got done remodeling my master bath. A 9 x 11 room, full gut, tile floor to ceiling, quality fixtures. It was $18,000 just for the materials not my labor.

For $100k, the guy's going to go broke, jerk you around, and the project won't get finished. Also you will get the absolute cheapest everything. Don't say we didn't warn you.

Well, the guy has flipped before so he must have some idea what he can get done and costs. I would run like he!! from what a flipper is planning. I think he will flip you sunny side down.

roof35: My whole point was that I would prefer not to use a bank if possible.Have been in business for over 40 years so it's a little late wishing me luck on my venture but thanks for the thought.

I see no issues with a HO paying for their own project and like to stay a little ahead of the game.I guess that's why I have never been screwed by a HO in 40 years .To each his own.

In our part of the world this would be low by about a factor of three for low/middling quality work, a factor of 4-5 for good. Perhaps not quite that bad as I see it excludes most of the materials and fixtures. We were advised to estimate around $400-450/sqft for a whole house renovation ($50-100 more than a new build), and that turned out to be pretty close. I'd be very afraid of what you might get at that price.

Sounds like a low bid for 4 bathroom 6 bed compete redo. Also, bi weekly payments of $10,000 ( 8 payments) is a bad idea. If you sign that and they do no work, you agreed to pay them bi weekly. Payment schedule should be based on what gets completed, not specific timeframes.

If you remove all those walls, what's supporting the house? I'm having a 1939 house renovated. To open up two interior walls required more foundation support, as well as ceiling beams to handle the load. An engineer had to specify what was required per code and inspections were done before we could close up the ceiling.

You may also want to inquire about "cost plus" where you see the invoices and pay those as needed. The "plus" is the profit to your contractor.

Dyhgarden: thanks for the input. I forgot to mention that on top of this quote is $5000 for structural engineered drawings, engineered stamped, permits and a steel support beam for the walls.

@T Dad: "Dyhgarden: thanks for the input. I forgot to mention that on top of this quote is $5000 for structural engineered drawings, engineered stamped, permits and a steel support beam for the walls."

Keep drinking the Kool-Aid. The Jim Jones flavor. I'd go for it.

@geoffrey...all 3 quotes came back within 20k difference. One is even a big company with a Reno show on hgtv in Canada. So why would I think this quote is so far off?

just because you got ripped off and spent $18,000 on material only for a bathroom (lol), no need to be upset. I did my due diligence, got 3 quotes, and just wanted to clarify some stuff up.

Do you have detailed construction drawings and specifications that spell out the work to be preformed?

@T Dad: "just because you got ripped off and spent $18,000 on material only for a bathroom (lol), no need to be upset. "

I didn't get ripped off. My wife and I purchased the materials cause that's what we wanted. We got what weI wanted, and I'm pleased. It's a quality home, not some flipped dump that will fall apart in 5 years. Sorry you can't read for comprehension.

If you think your guy can do a bathroom for $8k... that's below Levittown.

Bottom line, I don't know why you posted here. Sounds like your proud that you can polish a turd.

You don't need any advice - you know it all - what could any of us possibly offer?

Without a documented design to be able to reference, any contract disputes will be extremely difficult You can bet that there will be some disputes happen here as the "quality" if the work becomes apparent.

@live_wire: With this low-ball the contractor will either go broke, take forever, fail to deliver all he promised. It's obvious.

@Geoffrey_b: I have 2 other quotes. All 3 are within $20k of each other. So yes, this might be a low-ball, but he is not that far off from the other 2. By the way, one of them is a very large company with a show on HGTV Canada. Again, they had a very similar quote. Same scope given to all 3.

But I would be willing to bet the very large company gave you a hell of a lot more detail in their proposal.

Actually, when I was looking at the price and when you said full reno, I was thinking it was for everything, but looking at it again you are only paying for the rough materials, paint, and labor. You will have to buy pretty much everything else, and that will easily double the cost on your end.

CLIENT TO PROVIDE MAIN MATERIALS (contractor will pickup supplies or have them delivered if necessary)

• hardwood/laminate
• tiles
• shower system
• faucets
• light fixtures (excluding potlight)
• tub
• vanities
• granite/ quarts countertops
• kitchen cabinets
• trim and doors
• mirrors
• appliances
• toilets

Hi, T Dad,

You will be well served by having a set of plans and specifications produced which document the scope of the work and detail the various components, materials, fixtures and finishes and identifies who will be supplying and installing them. The plans should be incorporated as contract documents. Depending on the requirements in your area, the plans may need to be submitted to the local building department for review in order to obtain necessary permits.

Payments should be linked to construction milestones achieved--not based on time intervals. Final payment should be based on "project completion" a term which should be clearly defined in your contract.

Best wishes.

Vith is right. You are only paying for the materials to get your home to an empty box. it looks like all other costs are extra. If doing a whole house remodel you will need architectural plans, electrical plans, etc. Those will take good bit of time and money. Cabinetry for an entire home will blow your mind! Head over to the kitchen forum and read what a lot of people are paying for kitchen cabinets. Let's not forget countertops, backslashes, sinks, faucets,etc. The $100,000.00 you were quoted is just the tip of the iceberg. I just finished a whole house remodel in Texas and $100,000.00 wouldn't have paid for 1/4 of the project!! Please follow everyone's advice and demand more detail. Good Luck!

This thread was a fun one to read! You know this guy could be allright at what he does, but it could be that he's just bad at the business part. I'm not a general contractor, but I believe that most of them will spell out exactly what they are doing in their contracts and this guy has not done that. It still may come out ok in the end though but I guess there is some risk involved there. By the way, Quali-Kote isn't that great of a paint to use on trim for a high end remodel where you are spending $150K. When there is that much money involved, why not spend $200 more and use the top shelf paint?