I would leave the post alone, and size the island so that there is at least 3' between it and the post. I'm re-posting this plan from up-thread--ignore the stub walls:

You could put a pantry cabinet beside the fridge since you have a nice stretch of counter between it and the cooktop. I'd put the cabinet on the right side of the fridge.

Is your great room 17' wide? I'm counting 15 squares in your kitchen plans, so I think you have a couple more feet to utilize. But I think you have too many squares in the width of your kitchen on the grid. Your elevation from the first post has the kitchen/dining rooms 13.4' wide.

Honestly I like Mama Goose's single island plan that she just posted (the one right above what you posted). I don't think you'll even notice the off center island once you're in the house. It's the overall feel that is more important and I think the column will help "separate" the kitchen from the great room.

I wouldn't worry about symmetry between kitchen and great room fireplace. They are two separate spaces that happen to be open to one another. Do for each room what works best for each room

I really like Mama Goose's plan here too and is definitely what I am leaning towards.

Just because I am playing around with these plans and came up with it (and I am obviously trying to overload myself with decisions), I am going to share another option because I am interested in your thoughts. What about an L-shaped island like this to give some more counter space:

much prefer the 2 island plan in particular for your situation and amount of space you have. It creates that inner galley where a lot of cooking and kitchen things can be occurring and the outer area remain social and more connected with family room and people-centered, and somewhat removed from the happenings of prep/cleaning/cooking/etc. You might go back to your original inspiration pics now and see what you think.

Thank you cpartist. My concern with that plan is that the aisle is so wide, I think a prep sink on the range wall is needed. I think sena suggested that in one of the plans she posted. If a prep sink is on that run, there won't be room for a 36" pantry cabinet and the separate wall ovens. Maybe if the pantry cab is only 24", and the prep sink 18"? If the kitchen space is 17' long, there could be a 24" pantry cab, 36" fridge, 12" counter, 18" sink, 36" prep counter, 30" cooktop, 18" counter, 30" ovens. I think that adds up to 204" or 17'.

Dreamhouse, we need to clarify the amount of space available. Is the kitchen space m/l 17' x 13.4'?

Back to the two island plan for a moment... I'm not sold on this myself, but, what if the "inner" island has the seating, and the "outer" island is just a low, narrow bookshelf, per the rendering below from another discussion.

This might better fill out the available space, provide definition for the different spaces without impacting openness, and provide additional storage and counter/buffet/display space.

And I'm still a big fan of a slide-in range vs separate wall ovens and cooktop, especially when wall space is somewhat limited!

With regards to the measurement, I am counting 18'13/4" to the outside of the walls x 13' 1 1/2", but I am not the best at reading prints.

Key West, how wide would that island second island be? Thank you!

ETA: A slide in range is fine if needed. My concern again was with the kids being able to play with the knobs and turn on the gas.

I'm thinking 12 to 18", max. I'll defer to the pros as to whether or not this is a viable option

Thanks key west!

Okay, this idea may be completely crazy, but I thought I would at least throw it out there since we are not really a "formal dining" family. What about extending the kitchen to the new dining area (in the front of the house) and just having more of an "eat in kitchen". I really just want a table that will seat 6 or I could even do a built in seating around the window with a table and seating on the other side. Just a thought. Then the entrance from the mudroom would run through the kitchen. We still plan to remove that front door coat closet (we will put hooks there instead since we have ample closet space and I hate the location of that closet. Just trying to throw all the options out there to your creative minds!

I think workflow is the most important consideration. Frig-pantry --> counter --> prep sink --> counter --> cooktop/oven/microwave --> counter --> clean-up sink. A kitchen that spanned that amount of distance would require too much walking. Instead of the desirable "work triangle", you would end up with an undesirable "work bowling alley" (to use someone else's phrase). You don't have to call it a dining room; it can just be the "eating/dining area". Designate a "kitchen area" and an "eating/dining area" as separate areas. The eating/dining area will contain a table that can be used for a myriad of activities (homework, games, folding laundry, etc...) and is not just limited to formal dining.

I definitely don't want a "work bowling alley" ;) Point taken key west. I agree with you completely. I just want to throw all of the options I can out there if space seems to be an issue.

Okay, so about this prep sink. I really hadn't planned to have one. My mom has one in her kitchen (and a clean up sink in her island) and it rarely gets used. Is it just for washing food, filling pots, etc while cooking? I am just trying to figure out if it is necessary or just better to have counter space and storage there. Is anyone able to do the digital renderings of the appliance set up mama goose proposed? Just trying to picture it. I am leaning toward the single island without the post like mama goose also last posted. Just trying to picture it all. The more I look at islands with posts, the more I don't like just a single post (which is what we have). I like symmetry.

If your only island is not connected to the support post, and isn't 7-8 feet away from the range/cooktop, then you would not necessarily need a prep sink. But if you ever have help in the kitchen, a prep sink is really convenient--I have a smaller second sink and I really like it for thawing and rinsing raw meat--much less surface to clean.

If you do a bookcase-type divider, you can have two posts for symmetry, but it will never line up with the great room and centered FP--just be sure you're OK with that. Here an example:

I honestly think I'd prefer just a single island rather than a bookcase divider and an island. If we can fit the prep sink great (good idea for thawing meat), but if not that is okay too. I think I'd rather have the built in ovens and cooktop rather than prep sink if it is an either/or thing. Thank you!

At 18', I think you can have both.

I already had this prepared when I read your lat post so I'm leaving it. For symmetry with the great room, you could have split bookcases with columns. Most of these tend toward the Craftsman style, but you wouldn't have to keep the middle columns:

I like the next couple of pics--you could have a wrapped corner in the entry, with a matching divider on the other side of the great room.

Or just columns to coordinate with the style of your house.

Just be sure that there is sufficient room for walking between the columns/dividers and the island seating.

Some renderings of mama goose's idea (though not sure you have 17' there and I think you'd need fillers/panels whatever next to the fridge, b/w wall and oven cab)

I have the MW in the cab next to the fridge (the program I.2m using doesn't have a drawer MW, so it's just a built in one. I'm thinking a roll-out shelf below or above the MW for landing.

Here's quick layout on a grid, based on 17' x 13', just so you can see how everything will fit. It will need fine tuning to the exact measurements of your rooms. Feel free to download and rearrange:

Rotated 90°--might be easier to see:

Great work mama goose! Personally, I don't like more than 4' between wall cabinets and island. I'm wondering if the answer is to move that island 3.5' closer, disconnecting it from the column(s). Then either put low shelves/cabinets between the columns, or not, per preference. Edit: Prob not- might be two tight for island seating with cabs behind.

Thank you, keywest, your suggestion would be my preference, with nothing connected to the column, but it seems Dreamhouse really wants to tie in the column, so I'm just proposing an option.

The island could be moved forward enough that the back (seating counter) was even with the front of the posts. The island could be made deeper, too, with extra deep drawers for more storage. Seems as if I've suggested that a lot lately--hope you all aren't tired of hearing it.

GW discussions--extra deep drawers

Thank you mama goose (and Key West for your comments). I think I am happy with the island not attached to the post. I think an fairly long and deep island about 4 feet from wall cabs would be nice. I don't need a book shelf or anything on the column that is there. I like the look of the island being closer and *more* centered. I like the option for some good storage and counter space in the island since I feel like I am lacking some of that with a single wall kitchen. THANK YOU!

ETA: What are your thoughts about reversing appliance layout on wall - putting pantry on exterior wall (by french doors), then refrigerator, then counter space, then cooktop, then counter space, then prep sink, then counter space, then ovens? Just a thought.

It's usually more efficient to have the fridge on the periphery of the
work zone, where anyone else coming in can access it without getting in
the cook's way. Also, it will be more convenient to the dining room, and
to anyone coming from upstairs, if it's left as is. But I suppose it
depends on how you will use the kitchen--what was your reason for moving
it?

Another thought--if you bring in groceries from the hall on the right to the larger pantry, you won't have to carry the bags through the kitchen. You can use the island as landing space, and load the fridge and smaller pantry from there.

Here's a plan with the island separated from the post (although they made such a lovely couple ;), and without prep sink. The length of the island can be adjusted. It would be nice to get the prep sink on the island, with clean-up on the perimeter, but I don't think there is enough room (with separate ovens or with pantry cab). How do you feel about that idea?

That makes sense. I guess I just don't love the ovens next to the sliders. Maybe we could put a pantry there and the refrigerator on the end? That way the oven is moved down a bit?

With the pantry in the slider corner:

I really love that last layout mama goose! Question about the length and location of the island. Should we make it longer? Move it to center with the great room? Not sure what my options are. Kind of going off what key west was saying.

My friend suggested this layout. Putting a breakfast bar on the column. Not sure how I feel about it.

Your sliders, and the clearance in front of them will determine the
length of the island. If you want it centered on the great room, it will need to be
shorter, but no problem, it's a quick, messy, cut & paste:

Sorry, I should have mentioned that the french doors are 4 panel sliders, so they don't need much room to open (just slide). I like the centered island. I just want to make it as big as possible.

Mama - what are you thoughts about the island being one level vs a step up for the bar seating (I think that is how you have it.)? Thank you!

24" deep will probably work for a breakfast bar, but you are back to having that counter (and the seating) in the great room if you want 48' aisles. (2' + 4' +
3' + 4' = 13') If you can manage with 42" aisles (I can, and do, manage with less, but some folks want more), then only half of the bar and all of the seating will be in the great room, based on a 13' wide room.

If you can spare that space in the great room, and like the bar, then add a few inches (make it 28, rather than the 24" you've drawn), and use some 12" deep upper cabinets as bases on the side facing the kitchen. It will enclose the bar, and provide a lot of storage for kitchen items.

Sorry, I should have clarified--the islands are all one level. The lines are included to differentiate cabinets from overhang. I don't care for a raised section on an island or peninsula, but that's my prejudice--if you're looking for a way to hide cooking mess, and like the raised ledge, then it's up to you. Do you have a raised counter now, or do you know someone who'll let you cook them a meal and do their dishes, to see if you like it? If I had a raised counter I'd sign up for Christmas dinner. ;)

BTW, how wide are the four panels of the sliders? Can't remember if that's been covered.

I prefer the one level islands as well. My mom has the raised section and I just don't care for it much. I was just curious about your option. I could really care less about mess ;)

The slider is 118 1/4" - I thought it was 108". Is this going to cause a problem?

ETA - Okay, freaking out. It definitely isn't going to work with a 24" cabinet there. It was supposed to just be a 108" door wall, but now both the basement and upper are cut at 118 1/4". Could we do a shallower pantry cabinet there or would that look weird. I am soooo bummed right now :(

Not necessarily. If you put the pantry next to the slider, it can be 15" deep, rather than 24" (unless my math is off--I pulled a muscle, or something, in my back and I'm sitting around taking pain med, so if I get it wrong feel free to correct).

• 13' = 156"
• 156" - 118.25 = 37.75
• 37.75" - 6" (3" door trim x 2) = 31.75
• 31.75" ÷ 2 = 15.875

If your window trim is included in the 118.25", you can have an 18" deep pantry. If it's wider than 3", then maybe only 12" deep pantry. Will you be using custom cabinets if needed? If not, then for the 12" deep pantry you can use upper cabs, as I mentioned before. So, great idea to put the pantry cab next to the slider. :)

We are probably using 4" trim, but I am okay with 12 inch deep pantry. We are doing custom cabinets. Phew, crisis averted! Thanks so much Mama Goose! I hope your back feels better soon!

I sort of like keywest's idea of a bookshelf dividing the space. What is the style of the home going to be?

I would say the house is a bit eclectic - a cross between transitional and craftsman maybe?

Then a bookcase similar to what Mama posted would actually be fun and look good? During gatherings, it could also be a place for people to put drinks, etc.

Thank you, Dreamhouse.

I really like the bookcase that wraps the corner. It takes up sf, but also separates the great room from the hall and stairs a little more than a plain post would. The partial wall separating the great room and hall could be trimmed out the same way. The columns in the original covered porch plan remind me of that style, too.

I'd like to see what the island looks like 2' to 4' longer - same distance from the slider, but with other end as far, or almost as far, as the edge of the frig. A 10' to 12' long island would be awesome looking, and I think you could use the extra storage, and counter.. I believe there will be a hallway between kitchen and dining area, and I'm concerned there will be too much open/wasted space unless we stretch the island to that direction. I believe cp mentioned earlier that symmetry with the great room fireplace is less important than maximizing the aesthetics and utility of each separate space. cp knows craftsmen and I would listen to her advice.

Keywest - I think I agree. The more I stare at the print, the more I want to stretch that island a little more!

I think keywest is correct about stretching the island.

Dreamhouse26, as an example my fireplace will not be centered on my column entry that leads to my kitchen/dining area. No one will notice that the fireplace and divider across the room are not centered on one another. Same with your kitchen island and fireplace.

Now also look to doing the bookcase. ;)

The first plan I posted with a pantry by the slider has the island 10.5' long, and 4.5' away from the sliders. How much clearance should there be in front of the doors?

This is the one that looks best to me:

But where to place bookshelves without interfering with island seating?

Instead of extra deep island cabs, how about regular depth with 12" cabs behind them? You'd have to crouch under the island overhang to access them...

is a prep sink a good idea in this kitchen? The only way I think it could fit would be to use a slide in range instead of separate wall ovens and cooktop.

I definitely like the 10' island. I can't decide about the island + bookshelf idea vs just an island. My husband is not a fan of the book shelves, but I like them. He would like an island that is wide as possible with as much storage as we can put in it.

One more question for you. The window in the former kitchen is already framed in and I am getting ready to place the order for the windows. It was framed at 72" wide by 54" high to make room for the counter. Now that we are moving the kitchen, do you think I should make that window 72" wide by 72" high instead. It is an easy fix. Windows are set at 8'2" with 10 foot ceilings. Just curious of your thoughts. If we put a counter and cabinets on that dining wall, it would make sense to have a window that height. But if we don't, I am worried that it will look weird. What do you guys think?

I think the front elevation of the house might be more important than what is seen from within the dining room. Can you post the front elevation?

We won't have planter boxes

So the same window as on the left of the front door? That'll be lovely!

Keep the front elevation windows the same height. What you have right now looks lovely.

Okay great! The window to the left of the mudroom entrance door is 54" high too, so we will keep them consistent. Thank you for the feedback!

Builder just framed in patio door and said that the measurement from patio door to wall (where cabinets will be) is 15". We had planned to use 4 inch trim and will lose 1/2 inch to drywall. What do you think? Will it look strange for a 12 inch pantry along the door? We will need to make the trim narrower by about an 1 to 1.5 inches. The trim will be the same color as the cabinets. What do you think?

Here is where we are with things: