Do you have photos and/or a plan of the property? I find it difficult to comment on where things should go if I don't have a handle on how the yard relates to surrounding properties, the house, road, driveway, patio, etc.

Do you want shade for the patio and house?

Beyond attracting birds, do you have other uses or goals for the yard?

Around here, pines see a lot of bird use - shelter, hunting perches, food for insect eaters, food for seed eaters, and their sticky sap may deter nest predators, so I would plan to leave some.

What USDA Zone? Are you saying your pines need dry shade, or you need to produce dry shade? You are correct, most trees produce dry shade at maturity...particularly evergreens and maple. (Both of which would produce too much dry shade for most plants). Honeylocust is one of the few trees that WOULDN'T.

What trees were you planing on planting that required shade? What exactly was your question?

Kudos on the idea of native hollies. Have you considered American holly (ilex opaca)? A big one, but you could replace a couple of the pines with it.

I also like the Black Gum. I'm jealous you found them on clearance. Great tree for widlife.

Not sure why the big trees go farthest from the house, never heard that. It may be an aesthetic thing. I find the landscaping forum is all about arbitrary formal design rules rather then wildlife or energy efficiency. In general, pines and large holly go north of the house (to block the North Wind in the winter), along the border with the neighbor who has the least attractive yard, and in the parts of the yard you are likely to see or frequent in the winter.

Pretty flowering things go near the windows and the parts of the yard you hang out in the summer.

I like the idea of a few big deciduous trees to the South of the house to provide summer shade and greater air conditioning efficiency, but the general panic about trees too close to the house is making people move away from that. Also like scattering a few big attractive deciduous trees around the yard for summer shade where you can set up picnic benches beneath them.

I think for birds, what you want is a mix of things with berries for food and evergreens for shelter. Ideally use things that produce berries and flowers at different times of year.

EDIT: Just noticed you said your yard is to the south. I'd take out a few loblolly pine, and all the ones really close to the house...that's way to many fast growing evergreens for a lot that size anyway. I'd replace a few with slower growing American Holly. If it's still possible and you have room, I'd move a couple pine to your front yard, to screen you from the road and North wind. Maye stick an American Holly there to. I'd put one of the Black Gum near your house on the south side---if possible, where it will shade your air conditioner when it gets bigger. I'd put the other two black gum smack in the middle of your back yard. As the trees get bigger I'd move the shade loving plants from under the pines to under the black gum...the pines will probably produce too much dry shade even for most shade loving plants. The black gum will at least let sun through in the Spring. You don't necessarily want too much cover right near your house...rodents.

Too many issues at once. I can't get my head around it without a bird's eye layout showing direction, scale, existing or proposed beds, sidewalks, how much is in shade or sun. And what's wrong with the birds in your area??

Don't forget, your landscape needs to be attractive from the inside of the house as well as from the street. When I plant out things in the back yard, I often have my wife stand inside the house and let me know if it looks good from that vantage point as well. In fact, most of our flowering shrubs can be seen from inside the house.

why dig them up ... just cut them flush.. and be done with them ... as i understand you are not really contemplating moving them ...

lots of words ... with a summation of what do i think .... well ... i am not sure the specific question you are getting at .... as the story doesnt get to what the title seems to ask ...

lets try again ...????

ken

Thanks, viper. I purchased a red buckeye, but cannot put it out back. I hear the drupes are very toxic and have two dogs. They love my black and blue salvia and do plan to try a few other types as well this spring. That stuff is sick!

agastache, red hot poker, crocosmia, bush salvia, and red yucca are also good for hummingbirds......I plant anuals as well like tropical milkweed, mexican sunflowers, zinnia, cigar plant, canna indica, and etc. The more plants the better.....to me using a feeder is unnatural and deprives the birds of nutrients they can get from nectar...plus it goes rancid pretty quick

While this thread is kind of all over the place-not necessarily a bad thing-I do want to agree strongly with Viper's last comment-that "bird feeders" are not all that helpful to wild birds and that providing food plants, cover, water, and other habitat elements is far more meaningful. And the rancid thing....and the fact that a well-known purveyor of both fertilizers/potting media/pesticides and birdseed did manage to mix the bird food with the pesticide...but that's an outlier case. I'm saying even when such is not the case, the overall practice is less beneficial than the habitat route.

+oM

Bama_Joe: We really do need more information. What is your USDA zone? Do you want dry shade, or have it and are looking for things that will survive in it? Which of us is closest to what you are asking for? How big/old are the pines and black gum? And please, post some pictures.

Anyway, if you want hummingbirds, nothing beets trumpet vine (Campsis radicans). Unfortunately, it is VERY aggressive. I also find bird feeders attached to windows are good..I think the hummingbirds feel safer higher up.

Ed - I really just want to know where to plant the black gums, as in what is the preferred location. I took some pics and posting below. I plan on moving most everything, even possibly the weeping yaupons (Pendula) since I'm not sure if they would look right. I have 3 finch's golden possumhaws, 3 winter red winterberries, finally found a ninebark coppertina, so had to pick it up (very hard to find here according to the large nursery I deal with). Also have some rabbiteye blueberries and plan on a crabapple, Redbud species (have a small rising sun in center old bed pic as well) and a cornus Florida dogwood (butterfly larvae host). Everything in the center bed is moving or being given away. I may use the autumn royalty encore azaleas in one of the beds until I can either find something in Spring, or support Native azaleas. Also have a grancy greybeard American Fringetree and a Henry's garnet sweetspire, figured the fringetree would not do as well in a bed and better as a specimen.

I have two shoal Creek Vitex and 3 weigela along the back fence (pine was moved to the back which is why the weigela are around it...moving them, the two vitex plus the 3rd vitex i purchased, closer to the porch toview hummers). I was thinking an island bed on each side to start with, appx where each yaupon is and running them towards the porch, then planting Redbud, dogwood between them and the fence. Rabbiteye could could go horizontally behind where the old dark brown center bed is, maybe 3 on each side? Not sure where to put the winterberries and possumhaws. I was also given two southern wax myrtle/bayberry if I want to plant them (two gallon), since they host some hairstreak butterfly larvae and supposedly are adored by the birds. I am leaving the dead Yoshino Cherry for birds and the area at the back edge and corner there drops off and is much more wet after a rain. It's the only section that is like that.

The ported junipers will not be used after Ken's info, the Arizona Cypress blue ice, think that may have to be someone's gift, since, although I did like it, not seeing a "fit" for it with all I want to plant.

One more thing, the potted hollies were in the ground and I dug them up. Do not plan on using them due to size. I had a guy who did the planting (all you see except pine trees, weigela and Vitex) and was not pleased when I saw the finished product. Also, the small golden hinoki Cypresses will be removed and not sure if they will be reused (thinking not).

Wish this app had an edit button.

Regarding the "dry shade" comment/question I had, will I need to remove most of the pines except the back, or is that really going to have any effect on the conditions that the type plants I mentioned, require? Also, this yard is directly South facing, wanted to know if I need to remove some pines, if so, which ones. I have three black gum species, but will only plant what I can do without forcing things. I could always put one out front or something else.

I am in zone 7, north Alabama.

This is my backyard...kind of backwards as South is at the top and North is bottom. You can see the patio, which the dark mulched bed is centered in front of.

Yard is 80ft deep and 115 wide, appx.

Oops...drawing attached

Not sure why you would need to remove the pines, but one thing I might do is bunch them up. With their relatively light shade, I like groupings of pines, plus it looks more the way Ma Nature does it, for the most part. I'm not seeing any incompatibility between any of the elements you're working with. In fact, quite harmonious and complimentary, I'd say.

+oM

Thanks, Tom. I am trying to figure out where to place the black gums, since there are 3 of them, so figured I'd need to remove some of the pines. I kind of wish I had grouped some, at least a few more, to block some wind. The pines towards the house, I was afraid they would block too much light for the full sun hummer stuff, not thinking pines are too fragile to have close to the house as well?

I'm also trying to figure out where to place the three possumhaws, as well as the winterberries. The possumhaw get 15-20x15-20, with the winter red being 8-10 I believe. Should the possumhaw go behind those beds, with the dogwoods and redbuds (between where the north to south beds are planned and the privacy fence, or are they normally just back of the border plantings? I'd imagine I will want to plant them closer than what you would normally plant in a formal bed, letting them grow together, but placement, although it doesn't need to be calculated, I want to ensure I have them in the proper zone. Wasn't sure if they should be considered mid story like the dogwoods or not.

Also, the redbuds supposedly flower best in full sun, but should I plant them near where the middle bed is/about to be a "was"? I had considered, at the least, planting the redbuds along of the edge where the current middle bed is, which is where I want to have the butterfly/hummingbird areas(s). I am thinking about having that whole center area as the spot for my hummer and flutters, maybe dividing it into sections, spreading the three vitex in different spots with some taller flowering shrubs making a wall of sorts, to help reduce dominant males chasing everyone off, as well as having an area, maybe not quite as visible, for some dill and other larval food plants.

I'd put one black gum between the dog and the pine in the last picture. So it shades the air conditioner. One in the exact center of the yard. Not sure about the third. I'd put a redbud or a holly near that window. I'd move a pine to your front yard, to the north, if you have room. It will be a long time before those pines provide enough shade to seriously hurt anything.

A little hard to tell, but in the first picture, the plantings seem to be MUCH too close to the house.

Ed - I do have a Magestic Beauty Japanese black pine out front, so are you suggesting that so I would have one there, or so I can put a redbud or holly in place of the pine near the window? Another, maybe you are talking about changing the bed in front of the window, since I want a more naturalized yard? Also, what spacing does the gum need from the pine? Don't they get 20-30 feet wide, or is that optimistic estimation on the web? If I put the gum too near the porch, it would block the view of the beds.

Lacy - The camellias were planted too close, they are 2.5 feet from the house and I will be moving them somewhere or doing something with them (possibly plant them near the japonicas behind all those potted plants in the pic...have 3 black magic and 2 spring and fall blooming autumn mist).

The pine is about 15 feet away from the house, so the mature spread likely will not arch over it.

EDIT -

Ed - Guessing you meant between the dog and the pine in the background? Also, any suggestions on a holly?

These three pics are taken from the horizontal center of the yard, with about 57 feet to each east and west fence. Does this shed any light on the gum placement and whether there is proper available area for two or three? The "sticks" in photo one (between the two pines) hydrangeas, will be moved.

EDIT - I really appreciate everyone taking the time to share their advice, thank you all!

I was thinking of putting a Black Gum between where the dog is and the bigger pine to right of the dog in the foreground. That would be in the last picture before my post, the one that showed the air conditioner. Yes, that would involve removing that pine. You would probably rather have a deciduous tree in front of your window where it provides shade in the hot summer while letting light in during the colder winter. Also, I realize this is probably closer to the house then most people would like. I tend to think people get carried away about the dangers of trees close too the house.

Black gum do get quite big, but they grow somewhat slowly. Also, I tend think they look better "limbed up" then most conifers would. The current pine in front of the window will block a lot of light. A black gum would block light in the summer in a few years...but would lose leaves in the winter, and would lose lower limbs down the road and block less light.

I was suggesting a pine in the front because they block cold north winds in in and provide some green when you go to and from your car in the winter Great minds think alike. Are bark beetles a problem in your area? Black pine don't last long where my parent's are, but that's a local issue.

I was just suggesting a redbud near the window because they are pretty and you want them where you can see them. Winterberry would also work. Wasn't thinking about the camellia or other things...I tend to think once you have the big things where you want them you start thinking about moving around the little things.

FYI, redbud is a somewhat short lived tree in cultivation...decent chance something would kill it before the black gum gets big enough to shade it too much.

As far as holy...I've always liked American Holly (Ilex Opaca) because it is native and I find it's form and bark elegant. However, it's a tree...something you would replace a couple pine with for variety. Not a small shrub to stick close to your window. While not a native, I also like variegated English holly...but that's big to. I'm not up on the dwarf hollies. I also suspect you are in a warmer climate then me, and have many more options. (loblolly doesn't grow where I live...so I can't offer much specific advice on that)

The pine are closer to your house then I visualized from your original post. I was picturing them clustered along the back fence.

EDIT: You can edit your posts on the web, if you like.

If you'll notice, I have another pine off the corner of my porch on the west side as well. It may be worth the hassle of digging those two, as well as the pine in the background of the ac pic and moving them to the back. I'd like to have things right, before things get "too" rooted (I understand pines are difficult to transplant after they "dig in"). Please excuse the horrid mess, as I'm still "working". :). Posting pics below to hopefully get more advice on which pines to move and where to place things. I haven't straightened some of the pines yet (as you can see).

First pic should've been before pic #4 in previous post.

This rotates from looking north, to looking south.

I'd probably move the loblolly pineclosest to the porch on the west and the one closest to the window on the east. Maybe replace the pine closest to the window with a black gum or American Fringetree. You don't want to block your only southern sun in the winter.

You only have one south facing window. Is it in a room you use much in the winter? Do you use your back yard much in the winter? I might put things with winter interest (winterberry, holly, nine bark) in the front yard, or in view of that window. An island bed a few yards from the window, maybe? The summer blooming things you can enjoy from your patio.

What USDA zone are you in?

FYI black gum are supposed to be hard to transplant to.

Could someone familiar with loblolly or American Fringetree chime in?

I'm in zone 7a, north Alabama. Loblolly are native to this area. They're actually hybrids, from a local nursery friend.

As you said, black gum are hard to transplant, due to the taproot formed. I'm not sure I want something, although deciduous, so close to my viewing area. Also, I had planned on the other bed that runs north to south, ending near that area.

I envisioned 2 naturalized beds, one on each side of the yard (but not along the fence), running vaguely from where each weeping yaupon is, towards the house. Behind the beds, I planned on trees such as dogwood, redbud, etc. The redbud I wanted there would not be one of the seedless/low pod cultivars, but a species. I figured that would be best for the birds. I could move the Rising Sun redbud closer to viewing distance and also want 1 or 2 more smaller cultivars, such as a Lavender Twist weeping form.

Honestly, my main intention is to have something that attracts birds, hammers/butterflies/beneficial insects, while having a bit of ornamentals to view. I plan on it not being a finely manicured yard, as that would get rid of the seeds, insects and the like, that birds and pollinators thrive on.

The north/south beds were something I figured would work, but I am open to any ideas that best accomplish the end goal.

My goals:

1. Have areas which I can view butterflies, hummingbirds and birds (have a pair of Leopold binocs to report sightings to Cornell via their app, Merlin).

2. Do my small part in providing a place for migratory and residents, feeding, nesting, etc

3. Have a spot for some rabbiteye blueberries, which I may never have left for myself after the birds get to them, but they get priority.

3. Have some pretty blooms/fall leaves to look enjoy

4. Enjoy feeling the end of day stress leave from my back porch

Bed ideas can be changed, trees can be moved or cut, new plants can be purchased to support my goals over time.

Just saw the edit.

Fringetree is also native here, maybe the pine by the window would be the best place and wouldn't block any views. I do use the porch in winter, every morning. In fact, when it's in the 20's, as it was a few weeks ago, I grabbed the heated blanket and sat outside for hours, watched the sunrise, it was great.

There is only one window in the back, that gets sun, with the others shaded by the porch. All viewing is done from the back porch, which is why I'd like to incorporate these things there. Also, septic field out front, as I haven't switched to the sewer yet.

The two pines nearest the porch (west side) are the same distance (14.5 toe to heel steps from trunk to porch). You can see the two in the pics, one being closer to the house, one further from the house.

Alabama...very different climate then I'm used to. (I'm in New England, and we still have PTSD from the uncharacteristic winter last year).

I don't really like the location of the pine near the porch that's nearest the house. I know there ate folks on this board who've never seen a tree who's location they liked...could someone else opine on tree placement?

If you want hummingbirds, trumpet vines (Campsis radicans) attract them big time. You could grow them up a trellis or the fence. Your neighbors may not like you for it, though. They are REALLY aggressive.

As far as attracting birds...try to plant things that produce berries and flowers different times of year. I like holly for birds because in the winter birds like to hide in the center and use the spiny leaves as protective walls. You might want to post at Hummingbird Garden, Butterfly Garden, and Native Plants.

I'd suggest putting in plants and trees for specific butterfly species...eg sassafras and black cherry for tiger swallowtail...but you already have lots of ideas for things to plant, and limited space. I generally like your choices.

I actually think ninebark is a decent choice to grow on a septic field...you can cut it to the ground if you need to and it will shrug and grow back.

I also think you should hurry up and get those black gum in the ground.

By the way, you have the perfect house for solar panels.

Ed, that tree was going to come down eventually. I had over planted and it was one of the three I had used, for early shading. Plans changed and I'm going for a more naturalized, woody yard, for the creatures. No more camellia city for me. I realized that I could have a few camellias, which attract all sorts of beneficial insects, while still accomplishing my goal. I honestly don't like the location either.

BTW - Not concerned about septic out back, it's the front yard where two field lines are. If the roots clog the single line out back, not a big deal. I'm single and don't use much water, but when I do have problems, I'm converting to the existing sewer that is ran to my yard. The houses were built prior to the sewer.

Joe, just generally are there patches of more or less intact natural cover around-that you can use to help come up with plant combos and so on? Even though I'm only ever a visitor there, I enjoy contributing at the Florida Gardening forum and amidst all the interest-and rightly so-in the myriad plants one can grow down there, it is the native pine flatwoods, with its ground layer of saw palmetto, coontie, etc. that was just perfect to my eyes. Just wondering if there's anything there to inspire?

+oM

Tom, there is so much land around me it's crazy. However, finding the places to inspire, that's another story. Wheeler National is a mile away, along with the Tennessee River, but it is so massive and the areas that are accessible to me, they are migratory bird sanctuary or fishing spots along the way. I like deciduous hollies with an evergreen backdrop, which is why I have winterberries and possumhaw. Most of the things I have, it's just a start to the "less lawn" concept I'm after. I plan to have over story, mid story, then the shrubs, etc for the two thirds on each side. Center, I planned on butterfly/hummer/pollinators, but no natural inspiration.

Ed has me thinking about the back edge again, as well. I did want to have a sort of screen, to block neighbor's and break the south wind, but also give the birds a place to have distance and cover when necessary. I started checking again and found the Brodie Silicicolas I have, the reliable sources are saying 6-8 feet with a very upright habit. Maybe I can find an area to integrate them in a natural looking, functional way, dunno. I'm just trying to get this started properly before winter sets in here. Not expecting to have finished beds, etc., nor do I have enough plants to do so.

I have all that space in the center (everything is coming out), just don't want to lose the whole pollinator area I wanted.

There are no bad suggestions, but I guess most folks don't plant these type of areas, so it's hard for them to suggest.

inspiration? go with the cottage garden look.......densely planted to limit weed growth also looks lush and beautiful

I suggest you define where, and how wide, your paths are to be first, and then design your beds from there, rather than the other way around. Designing in the right order simplifies and quickens the decision process and lessens confusion and bad decisions.

Mike

I do know where they will be. One on each side of the pollinator area, paths between the naturalized beds and the mid story trees, small path between the back of the pollinator area and back fence plantings, as well as a path in front of the porch, connecting to the others.

If you think about everything at once you will get overwhelmed. Right now focus on focus on the bigger, longer lived components. The trees. I'd put a deciduous closer to your house...I don't entirely like having all the trees on the edge, but don't think a fast growing evergreen would be good closer to the house.

You know the loblolly will get huge, right? If you remove a couple of them you could make space for the Brodie Silicicolas or Ameican Holly or Foster Holly.

You say you like deciduous holly with evergreens in the background. What evergreens were they in the landscapes you like?

Print a copy of the google Earth satellite photo of your yard. Clearly label it and draw in the plants that weren't there when the picture was taken. It may help you visualize this.

The loblolly were originally for quick shade, so maybe I should consider their ultimate size and appearance before moving or deciding to keep them. Thinking about it now, I'm not sure I really want to keep them with all the sacrifices they bring. They really do get huge, too, and are taking up space I could use for other things.

If I went with the Brodies and some others instead, that may be a better, more appealing look. In fact, I bet there would be more birds, pollinators, etc with other choices. I'd have plenty room for the gums, redcedar, and others. I'd just have to steer clear of shade plants for a while.

Keep in mind, at maturity, nearly all the space "taken up" by trees like pines-and really, almost all tall-growing types-is in the vertical dimension, with plenty of room underneath for understory plants, or the kids' sandbox, or a horseshoe pit!

While I will readily admit, I get bored trying to place landscape plants online for people (whereas when present onsite, I really enjoy it), one thing that's nagging at me just a bit here is the very plethora of species being mentioned. Nature is full of repetition, and that's a big reason why natural landscapers have power and harmony. I'd beware the tendency towards a plant collection. That's a very different thing from a landscape.

+oM

Keep a few of the pine near the fence. They do provide shelter for birds, and the evergreen backdrop for deciduous holly. Thirteen is just too many for a yard your size. Replace a few with evergreen holly (which needs shade and grows slightly slower) and maybe some cedar. Take out more of the pines when the holly and cedar get to be a good size.
I think one of the black gum and the fringe tree should go a little closer to the house then the back fence.

The pine provides shade for now, by the time they get too big the black gum, fringe tree and holly should provide all the shade you need.

What kind of redcedar were you looking at? Also, think back to the place you remember with holly in the foreground and evergreen in the background...what were the evergreens?

Looking at your earlier posts, you seem to veer wildly in your plans. If you keep planting large bunches of trees and taking them all down, you will never have decent sized trees.

Ed - I get your point and I've thrown around the idea of dumping the pines before, but just can't do it. They're such a great tree for shade, not dense shade either, do bring pine warblers, butterfly host and just wish I had more room. Maybe I can get an overhead drawing with measurements so you guys can recommend some changes. Everything is movable and if its not and it really needs to be moved, it gets cut down.

I've seen them in front of dark backdrops, be it a wooded area, conifers, saw a pic today in front of redcedar I liked.