Fine gardening is my favorite magazine. Was searching on the web for the recipe of potting soil, so I can create a fast-draining soil to root roses, and came across this recipe to fertilize for maximum blooms with annuals, most likely apply to roses. In regard to composted pine bark, that's what my neighbor said also (he has a Ph.D. in botany). Expanded slate adds no nutrients to soil, but improves drainage. It doesn't get compressed like perlite, so expanded slate is great to break up clay.

High in nutrients, this mix pumps out the flowers without extra feeding.

Watch the video

The Recipe
1 part expanded slate
1 part composted chicken manure
1 part worm castings
1 part composted pine bark
1 part coarse river sand

Because the worm castings and chicken manure provide enough nutrients to last throughout the season and the pine bark continues to increase fer­tility as it decomposes, this mix requires little or no extra feeding on your part.

—Bobbie Saul, Saul Nurseries, Atlanta, Georgia

Read more: http://www.finegardening.com/potting-soil-recipes#ixzz3tV4VWFAF

After searching through countless recipes of potting soil for the purpose of rooting roses ... This link is worth looking, it has a YouTube "Is your compost made out of sewage sludge?" I tested sewage sludge (Milogranite) on roses: thumb-down.

http://www.planetnatural.com/potting-mix-recipes/

A good potting mix recipe contains sterile garden loam, sand, peat moss (or coconut coir) and other additives as needed.

Classic Soil-Based Mix:

• 1 part peat moss or mature compost
• 1 part garden loam or topsoil
• 1 part clean builder’s sand or perlite

http://www.planetnatural.com/potting-mix-recipes/

What are your favorite recipe for potting mix? Or favorite brand of potting soil? Any favorite foods to lose weight? Thanks !!

Here is an article about winter protecting roses from the University of Illinois extension. I try to water my roses once a week as long as possible. This year I watered the Sunday before Thanksgiving. I rake some leaves from trees onto the rose bed when they fall in autumn.

Winter
Protection

https://extension.illinois.edu/roses/winter.cfm

That's a very good thread Straw. Thanks for starting it.

I am still learning to prepare the ideal soil mix for rose pots and beds and everyday I learn something new.

This year I tried another idea. Actually I did not think of it from the scratch, it just happened. I was visiting a plant nursery when I saw an old stock of terracotta pots and he gave me a very good deal on that (I had purchased all my plastic pots before that). So I purchased around 30 pots and then started thinking what will I do with them.

I purchased a dozen bags of river soil from the garden center. The river soil that we have flows down from the high glaciated mountains, is very loamy with excellent drainage and contains lots and lots of minerals, specially trace elements. So basically, it's quite rich in itself. I haven't seen anything like that in many other countries. I added well rotten cow / buffalo manure, leaf mold to it initially and later, also added cottonseed cake and chicken manure. In addition, I kept adding available organic material from my kitchen to those pots. I started doing this in August this year. Before joining this forum I did not have much idea that the organic matter that I was using in my potting mix was resulting in a nitrogen and phosphorus rich medium and other essential elements like K, Ca, Mg, Zn and Fe etc were missing though some of them would be always there in the river soil.

I narrate in another thread how I filled three large pots with the guavas that I could procure from a nearby tree (they were not eatable and carried worms). So I mixed them in big quantity with the potting mix that already contained leaf mold, cattle manure, chicken manure etc. By now, some of these pots are ready.

This is from where I got the idea of proper composting in terracotta pots in layers using already rich organic potting mix. Now a chain has been established. 1 to 2 pots are always ready and many others are in different stage of decomposition.

The biggest advantage that I accrued from this forum was the know-how on appropriate NPK and pH level in the soil for roses. Before this, I was just putting the organic waste / manure in the soil, without knowing what elements it would contain in abundance and what would be deficient. Information available on this page guided me towards attempting a rose specific compost which has an NPK and pH level more suited for roses than other plants.

Over a period of last 6 months, I have used many of those pots but still around 10 are available and I will keep filling them with appropriate organic stuff (K, Ca heavy & trace elements with less nitrogen and minimal phosphorus). It was the same filling in layers of organic matter that I showed through photographs in the thread named NPK & pH of Organic Matters .

One problem that I see in this forum is that lot of very valuable information is scattered here and there in different threads and its difficult to trace it. But this will perhaps be always there and can't be helped much. A forum on the format of ex English Rose Forum is perhaps more suited for digging out old things.

Eager to listen to more ideas on using our kitchen waste into something valueable for our roses and develop and system in the house where preparation of such composts becomes a routine feature. Something is always available to us to be used as topping and other things are there in various stages of decomposition.....

best regards

I don't have any answers for your questions, Straw. But I do appreciate the information you post :). My roses are struggling with blackspot because we've had constant rain lately, and it has 1) multiplied thrip and blackspot damage 2) kept me away from pruning and removing damaged parts because I don't want to get sick again.

I am glad I don't need to winterize my roses. I sympathize with you all that have to worry about that. I don't know if I would choose to have the beautiful spring flush you folks have and have to winterize ... versus our location which gives us smaller blooms but no need to winterize.

Msgirl: I like your attitude of being thankful for what you have. When we want or desire something else, it takes away the appreciation of what we have at hand. If all my roses survive winter, I actually like winter .. it's taking a break from watering the plants. And roses need a break too. Winterize isn't bad, once I like raking leaves, and figure out the best way. Khalid gave excellent info. how roses in his breathable terracotta (unglazed clay) pots have less fungal diseases than in water-retentive plastic plots.

Dr. Huey-rootstock HATES it wet, I have 6 grafted-roses in a wet bed that lost Dr. Huey and grew their own-roots. Dr. Huey root go downhill with wet soil.

Predfern: Thank you for that link to University of Illinois. I like their tip of stop fertilizing before August 15. But other tips are not scientifically proven, it could stem from the misapplication of pots to roses in ground, and the misapplication of grafted-on-Dr.Huey to own-root-roses. In our Chicagoland, roses' root get dry out WAY BEFORE THE GROUND freeze, like last year's dry late-fall. Last year my 3 rain-barrels were empty when we put away before the snow hit. God, the Creator, knows more about plants than any University Extension, plus soil and climate are different, plus differences in rootstocks, thus one-size doesn't fit all. Putting leaves when nature sheds it makes more sense, than following some man-made dictates.

When University of Illinois stated that cold & wet winter is more damaging than dry winter, they mean GRAFTED-ON-DR.HUEY, which hates it wet. Dr. Huey was bred in dry & alkaline California to be vigorous despite drought, alkaline tap water, and warm climate. Water-hog Austin OWN-ROOT roses like it soaking wet. Even my Stephen Big Purple as own-root hybrid tea got 32 gallon of rain-water dumped on it, and didn't hurt it whatsoever as of now, Dec. 6. I routed the overflow of my rain-barrel smack on Stephen Big Purple.

I followed University of Illinois' tip on early fertilization of roses right BEFORE the ground freeze, like sprinkling chicken manure. That benefited my spring bulbs (daffodils and tulips) but HURT MY ROSES. Why? chicken manure is high in nitrogen, it speeds-up the decomposition of cellulose matter (wood chips & brown leaves) ... but if placed near stem, it's corrosive to the dormant stems. Plus chicken manure is salty, which stress out roses already dried out in cold weather.

Beautiful colors, Msgirl: I like the orange one, and the last one with many petals. Took a long walk today, talked to a guy with over 50 roses (grafted on Dr. Huey). He built a raised bed for good drainage, plus only fertilizer his roses in spring May (granular fertilizer), and nothing afterwards. But when I saw his roses early October, 5 months later, they were blooming tons, like 10 blooms per bush and healthy too.

He said he doesn't have time for vegetables ... and doesn't water his roses much & he works full-time & married with kids. He has clay soil like mine .. clay soil retains fertilizer well. For pots: to simulate clay soil and retain fertilizer, alfalfa pellets mixed with potting soil for topping does the same with pots, drawback: it's slightly acidic.

The other approach to simulate clay soil in pots is topping with pea-gravel .. also high in magnesium &calcium & trace elements and sticky like clay. This is more alkaline, thus more appropriate for grafted-on-Dr.-Huey.

Thanks Predfern for the link on winterizing tips. That explains it well.

Straw I like to put down chopped leaves in the fall before the ground freezes too.

Sam: I got lucky today, saw someone with 4 bags of jammed pack leaves in front, about 40 lbs. per bag. They were so happy to get rid of that, to save $$ of yard-waste-sticker. The Dec. leaves are much thicker & more calcium & more alkaline, Early leaves in Oct. were thin & acidic maple leaves.

I layered leaves with soil, using 2 garbage-lids (face up). I put one layer of soil, some leaves, then soil: then dump that lasagna on top of roses. The soil provides fungi, bacteria and earthworms to decompose the leaves faster.

Ace hardware has the thickest yard-waste bag, the best top-soil & cow-manure. Momscottagegarden who used to post here, also agreed. After August that's when I buy stuff from Ace hardware on sale.

In October I practically covered 1/2 of Dreuil d. Raynaud rose. Now in Dec. that got decomposed & flattened down. For my front tomato bed, I dump leaves whenever they fall in early Oct., they fluffed up to over a foot. After 2 months & now in Dec. they are flattened down.

As to mice hiding in leaves to chew on roses' canes? The years with no leaves, no compost, mice and bunnies were chewing on everything. Once I started 3 compost piles, no more chewing on canes. Why should mice eat rose-canes when I have tons of melon-rinds, veggies scrap, plus wood-branches all over? Lots of animals come for my colorful compost pile: I see Hawks everyday ... Hawk eats mice in the winter.

I saw a bright red cardinal recently. Will shop for a bird-feeder. Will throw mint on rose bushes just to be safe. Mice and deer don't like mint, but rabbits eat mint. What type of bird-feeder would attract the most blue jays or red cardinals? Not sure why Blue Jays have a bad reputation.

My kid caught a cold this morning. I made her go for a long walk, and gave her Brewer's yeast with soy milk and buckwheat honey ... that's a laxative & and she got better immediately. Brewer's yeast is clinically proven to reduce duration of cold, thanks to many B-vitamins for deep sleep, plus it's a laxative. Exercise boost the immune system. When I feel tired or lousy, I force myself to exercise outside, and I feel good immediately.

Question for Jess: you don't have a cold for decades, is it from Oscillococcinum. or is it from using Brewer's yeast, or both?

Oscillo is supported by published clinical studies, as well as more than 65 years of use throughout the world. http://www.oscillo.com/about/

Immune System Effects When you exercise, elevations in the activity of your white blood cells allow your body to identify disease-causing organisms ... antibodies, which also accelerate their activity level when you exercise. In addition to elevating your white blood cell count, exercise promotes other changes that can boost your health, including reduced production of stress hormones, a temporary increase in your body temperature and a flushing of potentially harmful bacteria from your lungs.

- See more at: http://www.livestrong.com/article/386072-elevated-white-blood-cells-after-exercise/#sthash.mBMXiNdy.dpuf

msdorkgirl: Beautiful roses you have. Thanks for sharing these lovely pics. Love the dark pink rose in the last photo. Is it fragrant and what is the name?

Straw: For cold and cough, may try black tea with cinnamon and ginger. Boil a small piece of ginger and a piece of cinnamon with black tea. It tastes good. May give it a try sometime.... I take it in routine during winters and it does well. Very good for sore throat and chest congestion also.

regards

Thank you, Khalid, for the tip on black tea with ginger & cinnamon, will definitely try that. I freeze my ginger, so we always have that available.

Lost weight, down to 127 (my lowest summer weight). The ground hasn't frozen yet, so I still can work in the garden, killing weeds & invasive perennials. I eat lots of sweet potato (high fiber), sunflower seeds (high-fiber), soy milk & cereal (high fiber). Also cut down on my juice, I substitute with freshly squeezed lime & water. The best gift husband bought me was a lime-squeezer. See below on Amazon, it's big & sturdy enough so I can squeeze quartered grapefruit, or oranges:

http://www.amazon.com/Innovee-Stainless-Steel-Lemon-Squeezer/dp/B00KZ64UNC/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1449543706&sr=8-6&keywords=metal+lemon+squeezer

Dark pink is actually a china rose I think. In Hawaii, we call it lokelani, but I think its Monsieur something or other. Slight smell, grows all funky but it's pretty.

The orange one was Tahitian Sunset.

I think I"m going to do a hard pruning on all the roses, and then get some pavers and put the pots on top of them to help with drainage. Although today was no rain, it is winter so can't count on that.

I bought a manual hand crank driver to do holes in plastic pots ... how much is just enough?

Would love some landscape photos from everyone ... I think to celebrate no school next weekend, I'll go around the island and take pics :)

msdorkgirl: Would eagerly wait for the pics. Thanks for the information on roses. BTW, how cold it gets during winters in Hawaii? Few of my friends in tropical climate prune multiple times during the year because the growing season is much longer in these areas. As for the plastic pots for growing roses, my experience this year has not been good. I grew roses both in plastic pots as well as terracotta pots. Roses in clay pots performed far better than roses in plastic pots which would get sick every now and then. All plastic pots had 8 holes at the base while clay pots had only one hole in the center.

Straw: Lemon water is very good for health. But I would like to know more about use of sweet potato in large numbers. Is it not fattening?

BTW, I recall that when I was a young boy, my mom used to mix some black pepper in honey and give it me and my sisters in winters when we had cold and cough. It worked really well. I am going to restart it now.... and why not. Science is now proving that the old traditional ways that had been developed over the centuries were very useful methods with very few side affects.

One can keep on mentioning such old practices that were very useful. One such practice was the use of Neem tree in various forms. Neem (Azadirachta indica) is the local tree of the Punjab province of Pakistan and India. When we were kids, our grandmother (and other old ladies) would use Neem tree in everything. We would be made to take bath in water boiled with Neem leaves and there would be no skin disease what so ever. We would be made to eat the Neem fruit (which used to be very very bitter) and it would keep stomach in an excellent shape and we would hardly ever get food poisoning during those days. Neem tree bark would be used in numerous ways as anti-septic. Tender neem branches would be used as a tooth brush and it would act as a very good anti-septic for the gums. Dried neem leaves would be placed in boxes while storing clothes and there would be no bugs / termite etc etc. We lost all this with time and started thinking that these were non-scientific ways (because our science books in the schools that were basically developed in the West / USA did not talk about Neem tree).

In 2013, when I was in Central Punjab and had a few Neem trees in my yard, I used to boil fresh neem leaves in water and spray it on my roses. There were no pests what so ever that year and it was very very effective. (I am not talking of Neem oil here which is a much concentrated form and I have no experience of using Neem oil).

I think we need to rediscover those old practices. Another such practice was the use of tobacco leaves as an insecticide. What say?

Khalid: I enjoy reading about old-fashion remedies, I wish we have Neem here !! JessJennings' suggestion of cornstarch was wonderful for my hands, I rubbed that before using gloves, so the gloves' chemicals can't irritate my skin.

Yes, lemon or freshly squeezed lime-water curbs my appetite, while sugary-juice makes me hungry by stimulating my stomach's acid. Folks say fresh lemon/lime is alkaline, true, if it's NOT mixed with sugar, or if NOT pasteurized (cook). Same with fresh tomato: it's alkaline, rather than acidic. My kid used to eat lots of fresh cherry tomato before bed-time, no problems. But we all have acid reflux or heartburn if we eat cooked tomatoes, along with acidic beans.

My Mom has diabetes so I read lots of books on that, and memorize the glycemic index table, where it lists which food is converted fastest to glucose, the bad guys are sugar, white bread, white flour, and white potato. Sweet potato is different, it has more fiber than regular potato, and the glycemic index is among the best. Sweet potato is higher in protein, so it's filling. Yukon gold is also higher in fiber, plus rich in vitamins B, C and potassium that it's filling. Russet (white) potato has the least fiber.

Plants are more gentle than medicine made from chemicals. My 3 siblings are medical doctors, but after 4 decades of ragweed allergy and taking medicine with bad side-effects .. I took Stinging Nettle (freeze-dried) this year and LOVE IT, zero side-effects. Decades ago I tried Stinging Nettle as capsule and that didn't work, since it wasn't fresh ... Freeze-dried herbs or fresh plant is most effective.

You have a smart Mom, Khalid. Both pepper and honey can zap microbes. I see the honey keeps the pepper linger longer on the throat to kill virus. When I took microbiology in college, the professor said to gargle with salty water at the 1st sign of cold/flu. The salt kills the virus & bacteria so they can't go down to the lung. Gargle one's throat with salt isn't as good as pepper & honey, since that goes all the way down the throat.

Dr. Henry Kuska, a retired chemistry professor, posted links about tobacco leaves as an insecticide. I wonder: if tobacco is poisonous to kill insects, why would we want to smoke it ??

During my hunting trip last week, I interacted with an old farmer who was well versed in traditional ways. He told me tobacco water (either fresh / dried tobacco leaves boiled in water or the water from the tank of hubbly bubbly from which tobacco smoke has passed through) is a very good insecticide and the local farmers 50-60 years back frequently used it for controlling pests. He also talked about the use of ash as a pesticide and of course Neem tree is always there. I am going to investigate it more because now I am quite convinced that every traditional method had a reason and was based on centuries of experience.

Khalid, I didn't see your earlier post on how you prepare your pots until now, so glad that I came back to this thread. What you post from Pakinstan sometimes doesn't show up until later. Thank you for what you wrote: "I grew roses both in plastic pots as well as terracotta pots. Roses in clay pots performed far better than roses in plastic pots which would get sick every now and then. All plastic pots had 8 holes at the base while clay pots had only one hole in the center."

It was the same filling in layers of organic matter that I showed through photographs in the thread named NPK & pH of Organic Matters .

One problem that I see in this forum is that lot of very valuable information is scattered here and there ... it's difficult to trace it ... A forum on the format of ex English Rose Forum is perhaps more suited for digging out old things." Khalid.

From Straw: I agree with the above. The info. here are very disorganized, I had a hard time finding my recipe for pork spareribs, and after going through many Rose & Stuff threads, I gave up. That's why I started dating the threads, plus putting as much info. in the title, so that will show up in googling.

The advantages of Houzz: excellent search engine, easy to post pics. Easier to see long threads.

Everyone: How's your exercise & eating healthy coming along? I still keep our pledge of 20 min. of sun & exercise per day. Losing weight is easier once I find the right foods. Lost 1/2 lb., down to 126.5 ... I simply eat a big salad before lunch & dinner. Lots of RAW veggies: red cabbage, lettuce, carrots, cucumber, radish, etc.

Khalid & Msgirl: In this forum we started a 20 min. exercise pledge a day in mid-Sept. For 2 months of daily exercise, I didn't lose any weight ... very discouraged, then I start eating the right foods, and weight is coming off fast. I switch from peanut butter to sunflower seeds, and that helped a lot.

Both plastic pots and Styrofoam pots don't drain fast enough, and too stuffy, not enough air for root growth. I stopped using Styrofoam pots, and drilled more holes on my plastic ones. My 1st year of rooting roses: 4:1:1 ratio of fluffy & airy composted pine fines, peatmoss, perlite ... ALL rooted fast, zero mold even through 3-months of winterization in a dark garage. The next year, I could not buy that potting soil, so I used 1/2 MG-potting soil (with peatmoss) and 1/2 perlite, many rotted, only 2 waterhog Austin roses took root. The 3rd year, I used Lowe's Sta-Green potting soil, it has peat-sedge (fine-particle like clay) ... all rootings rotted, even with 1/2 coarse sand. So I bought MG-organic potting soil and mixed that with 3/4 sand, about 5 grew roots out of dozens, pathetic.

It's really hard to get composted-pine-fines potting soil, so I'll going to make my own. There's SuperSoil, which Kitty Belendez in CA used successfully with 1/2 perlite. Supersoil drains fast, and folks complain that it doesn't hold enough moisture, and THAT'S the best type of medium to root roses. Bluegirl in TX shared the same experience, best rooting is with FAST-DRAINING, airy medium ... roots need oxygen to grow, and peatmoss is too dense. Rooting in 100% coarse sand is still too dense (I tried that already). Kitty Belendez in CA tried many combo, and her success is fast-draining soil (SuperSoil) plus 1/2 perlite, plus misting. The baggie method would work if the right soil is used, but it failed miserably with peatmoss potting soil.

http://scvrs.homestead.com/CuttingsImproved.html

Straw wrote: "Supersoil drains fast, and folks complain that it doesn't hold enough moisture, and THAT'S the best type of medium to root roses. Bluegirl in TX shared the same experience, best rooting is with FAST-DRAINING, airy medium ... roots need oxygen to grow, and peatmoss is too dense."

What is super soil? Getting the concept, we are talking here about a medium that allow better air circulation, right?

Khalid: Scotts make supersoil, but they no longer sell that. Supersoil has less moisture-holding peatmoss, so it drains faster. The more I check on potting soil, the more I lean toward making my own fast-draining potting soil for rooting, or for Dr. Huey (likes it dry & alkaline). Peatmoss at pH 4 is bad for rooting, it retains too much moisture and promotes rotting in rainy climate, or in baggie-method (enclose in plastic bag).

Commercial potting soil is cheaply made: forest products means wood-chips or saw-dust (zero nutrients), peatmoss (pH 4), lime, perlite, and just a tiny bit of coco-coir to make it sounds good. I can make my own potting soil better if I have a wood-chipper to grind leaves into bits, plus wood ash instead of lime. I have 2 corkscrew willow trees with rooting enzyme inside their branches & leaves. The high quality potting soil like Metro-Mix uses bark-ash instead of lime to balance the acidity of peatmoss or pine fines.

I ordered own-root roses from many nurseries. The most healthy & vigorous was sent by Burlington Nursery years ago. At that time she used sphagnum moss (greenish & airy moss strands), which is DIFFERENT from brown peatmoss. Then Burling switched to pine fines, which are not entirely composted, and her roses went downhill.

Below is a picture of greenish & grayish sphagnum moss, which Connie of Hartwood roses used to root her roses, in a 50/50 blend of perlite and sphagnum moss. That's the best rooting medium, since it's airy, and fast drainage. See below link for hartwood nursery' instruction to root roses.

I tried her method with peaty potting soil & perlite and it molds too easily. Here's my ranking of rooting medium 1) greenish sphagnum moss and perlite 2) pine-fines potting soil 2) brown peat-based potting soil & perlite 4) sand.

http://hartwoodroses.blogspot.com/2013/05/how-to-root-roses-from-cuttings.html

Below is a pic. of brown peat-moss, which is DIFFERENT from sphagnum moss above. Brown peatmoss is dense & less air & and retains too much moisture to promote rotted cuttings, and pests. Many potting soils have peatmoss as the 1st ingredient:

There's the danger in using sphagnum moss from eHow: "The living plant that grows on top of the peat bog is dried and sold as "sphagnum moss." It is used in the craft and garden industries to line baskets and as a packing material in shipping bare-root plants. Sphagnum moss has been implicated in connection with a fungal disease called Sporothrix schenckii, which occurs when moss infected with the fungus comes in contact with an opening in the skin.

Read more : http://www.ehow.com/info_8057554_peat-moss-vs-sphagnum-moss.html

From Straw: Greenish sphagnum moss is very expensive, so any small & dry & airy particles would do. Carol got an electric wood-chipper to grind up leaves .... ground-up leaves is very airy, and makes excellent rooting-medium and soil-conditioner. I will collect small leaves of corkscrew willow, and let it decompose through the winter, then use that for a rooting medium. The small leaves don't need to be shredded. Lots of trees have salicylic acid in their leaves, it's a fungicide & also helps with rooting. When I googled for "trees with salicylic acid in South Africa" for Jess, I found a bunch.

I plan on putting those tiny leaves on top of coarse sand, when the leaves decompose, that will leach out nutrients downward to the sand. In the spring I'll mix them together and use that as a rooting medium. Roses root OK in sand, but it's hair-like thin root, due to lack of nutrients and moisture.

Tranquility (has not bloomed in forever ... octopus arms ... what to do?)

Thank you, Msgirl, for posting those bush-shots pictures. Your pics. are priceless & very good info. I watched Rick Steves travel show to Ireland last night. Ireland had less than 6 inch. of topsoil and lots of rain ... lots of acidic peat moss there. People use peat for heating their homes. Through centuries the Irish folks built up their top soil with sand from the shore, and seaweed from the ocean. But the soil is too acidic .. then came the potato blight (fungal disease that cause brown rot of potato). According to Wikipedia, this blight caused: " During the famine, approximately 1 million people died and a million more emigrated from Ireland,[4] causing the island's population to fall by between 20% and 25%.[5]

They also featured a part of Ireland where there's limestone .. and it's fertile with a vast variety of wild flowers, in contrast to the barren mossy parts of Ireland. Through the entire show, Ireland was gloomy & lots of rain: " In many mountainous districts rainfall exceeds 2000mm per year. ..."

I would switch from peat-based potting soil to composted-pine-fines potting soil in a 4:1:1 ratio of pine bark, sand, and peatmoss for fast-drainage (commercial mix put lime or wood ash to balance the acidity). Dr. Huey-rootstock likes that mix the most (see the research at the top). I would get Smart-pots for roses grafted on Dr.Huey ... that helps with airflow & less water-retention during rain.

For my plastic pots, I drilled 6 more holes at the bottom, plus 6 more holes at the sides .. so it's a total of 12 holes, before water could drain fast enough to prevent pests on top. That wasn't enough, when I planted roses from pots into the ground .. the bottom of pots is soaking wet, and these own-roots were shallow, less than 6". That's why I'm getting breathable Smart-pots for Christmas, before the price jump up in summer.

Vigorous Austin roses like Tranquility are best as own-root .. they stay shorter & bloom more. Dr. Huey is a climber, and Dr. Huey rootstock needs more potassium than normal. My own-root Crown Princess Magareta (a climber) gave only 2 blooms for the 1st year. I had to stop all nitrogen, and gave only sulfate of potash & gypsum before it bloomed more. This past rainy year I gave it alkaline pea gravel and high-potassium red-lava-rock .. that was so-so, own-roots can't secret as much acid as aggressive Dr. Huey.

My Pink Peace (grafted on Dr. Huey) improved greatly & bloomed more with sulfate of potash. Dr. Huey is a climber, so roses grafted on Dr.Huey doesn't need much nitrogen ...climbers are very good in retaining nitrogen for taller growth. I hope that helps, Msgirl .. always love your pictures, they are honest and bush-shots, info. which are rarely seen in other forums.

I have Gruss an Teplitz (Dr. Huey's parent) ... Gruss HATES wet peaty-potting soil, and broke out in fungal disease (mildew, blackspots), plus aphids plus stingy .. So I planted Gruss on a dry-hill, gave it sulfate of potash & gypsum and it bloomed lots. I don't water it either. Below are info. on Dr. Huey from HMF:

Climbing, thornless (or almost).
Height of 10' to 12' (305 to 365 cm). Width of 8' (245 cm).

USDA zone 6b and warmer. Very vigorous. Disease susceptibility: susceptible to Mildew. Prune after flowering is finished.

Parentage: Ethel × Gruss an Teplitz

Straw wrote: "Khalid: Scotts make supersoil, but they no longer sell that. Supersoil has less moisture-holding peatmoss, so it drains faster. The more I check on potting soil, the more I lean toward making my own fast-draining potting soil for rooting, or for Dr. Huey (likes it dry & alkaline). Peatmoss at pH 4 is bad for rooting, it retains too much moisture and promotes rotting in rainy climate, or in baggie-method (enclose in plastic bag)."

Unfortunately we don't have peat moss or sphagnum moss here. That is why I was asking for the concept because working on the concept, I would find local components that are closest. So what I understand is that a very well drained open medium works the best. This year, most of my cuttings planted in river soil (only river soil with nothing added to it) and clay pots survived whereas the same soil in plastic pots had very bad results. Most cuttings rotted, only few survived. Should I continue with the river soil or add something to it.

regards

Hydroponics research and soil-websites stated that Too much nitrogen or calcium drives down potassium (necessary for blooming). I agree. When we had tons of rain and my own-root La Reine rose broke out in fungal diseases, due to poor drainage of Styrofoam pots ... I didn't realize that it was the pot's fault, so I sprinkled lime (calcium) on top, and La Reine missed the next flush of blooming. The pot didn't drain well, so lime was retained to cancel out potassium.

Wood-ash is far superior to lime in neutralizing acid. My neighbor, Ph.D. in botany is burning wood now to make wood-ash to fertilize his garden. Re-post info. that I posted years ago & scattered across this forum:

Peter's potting soil added bark ash (alkaline), which supplies calcium, potassium, magnesium, and all trace elements. Metro Mix also has bark ash, and is used in greenhouse veges seedlings.

Peter's Professional Potting Soil Grace- Sierra
Canadian sphagnum peat moss, vermiculite, granite sand, bark ash.

There's a 2 years study by Colorado State University on potting mixes by Carl Wilson, Extension Horticulturist. Here's an excerpt from the link below:

"Second, Hyponex All Purpose Potting Soil and Green Charm resulted in poor plant growth. Both of these media contain sedge peat, a fine particle material that tests to a low porosity. There simply isn't enough space within these media for the water and air that plant roots need to grow successfully. Black Gold All Organic Potting Mix resulted in significantly less plant growth in one out of two years.

Here is a link that might be useful: Cosumer Beware Potting Mixes Choices

I will have to look for potting soil with bark ash like the one Cheryl Netter used with her method of rooting-in-a-bag. I like what Bluegirl from Texas wrote in organic rose last year: "Another surprise has been how much plants like charcoal. We burn a lot of cedar brush & after I hose down the burn pile I shoveled it around on top of areas I'm colonizing for future beds. I expected the areas to get scalded out by the ash. But maybe since the ash was hosed off at the burn area, it didn't sterilize the area I spread it with excess alkalinity. The texture of the leftovers was like coarse animal feed, pure black chunks & grains. The native grass & wildflowers went nuts where I spread it. So now I scatter the burned charcoal around the roses after I wash it down. I'm gradually getting a lot healthier leaves, good basal production & more flowers." Bluegirl in Texas.

Straw: Very interesting point regarding Bark Ash. What bark is used in bark ash? You said it is alkaline. So if I make bark ash from pine bark (pH 4.5) than would it be acidic in nature? And any idea what NPK value it is likely to have?

regards

Khalid: I really like your question. My answer would be bark ash from acidic pine bark would be LESS alkaline. There's a site that listed which bark-ash is better than others .. different bark yield different % of nutrients .. some bark has more potassium. Will have to look for that site which I came across last year.

1st reason: Ireland's soil chemistry: Irish people burns acidic peat to keep warm in the winter, and that goes back to the soil .. but the burnt-peat isn't alkaline enough to offset the acidity of their much-rained land. So Ireland came down with the potato blight (fungus infection) in 1844 to 1849, which caused mass-starvation.

2nd reason: As a child In my native country, we barbecued everyday on charcoal (from natural wood) .. I touched ash daily ... I just brushed it off, no need to wash my hands. Fast forward 40 years in my alkaline Chicagoland, I got some ash from my neighbor, and IT'S SO ALKALINE, that it's caustic to my finger, I had to wash that off immediately.

The higher the pH, the more caustic .. baking soda at pH 8.3 is mild to my skin .. but wood-ash here has pH over 12, very caustic. Question for Khalid: If you touch the ash from pine bark, is it caustic to your skin, and do you need to wash it off immediately? Thank you. A red-cabbage juice testing of pH is more accurate, but the finger-touch is faster.

Forgot to answer your question: Khalid wrote: "This year, most of my cuttings planted in river soil (only river soil with nothing added to it) and clay pots survived whereas the same soil in plastic pots had very bad results. Most cuttings rotted, only few survived. Should I continue with the river soil or add something to it?"

Texas research for best root-growth stated that breathable Smart-Pot is better than plastic pot .. Smart-Pot is cooler for hot climate. Best medium was: 4 parts pine bark: 1 peat moss: 1 sand were used.

Khalid, your river soil is probably faster-draining than the peat moss-potting soil in America. Does your river soil has some sand, plus clay (that can sub. for peat moss)? Does it have 4 parts of dry organic matter like composted-pine-fines, or composted leaves? The 4 parts of fluffy stuff gives oxygen to roots, roots need air to grow .. the fluffier or airier, the better. Roots HATE dense stuff like peatmoss.

That peatmoss stuff is so dense & compact, that I had to use a steel scoop to cut it out, how can tender roots go through that?

If your rootings have thick roots, then your river-soil doesn't need improvement. But if your rootings have thin strands like hair, then nutrients-rich matter like composted leaves would help. Composted leaves are drier & fluffier & more airy & more nutrients than our brown-peat-moss. And composted woodchips have less nutrients than leaves.

I mentioned composted leaves since MiracleGro ORGANIC potting soil has that, along with wood-chips .. that BEAT all other medium in my kid's mung bean plants grown from seeds. Here's the ranking on the thickness of beansprout plants, and the thickness or the roots in my kid's science-project

1. MG ORGANIC potting soil with composted woodchips, leaves, chicken manure has the thickest stem & best root. It's fast-draining & fluffy & airy, yet moisture-retentive.
2. Seed-starter potting soil plus organic fertilizer (chicken manure, feather meal, etc.) This peat-based soil is too wet, lots of pests.
3. Seed-starter potting soil (peat-based) without fertilizer. BAD, thin stems, rotted stems & pests.
4. Clay with pine fines & sand & gypsum. Was the leader in wet weather, but when it's hot ... went downhill: TOO DRY, too compact & dense.
5. 3/4 sand and 1/4 peat-potting soil: worst root-growth, medium too dry & dense.

Straw wrote: "Khalid, your river soil is probably faster-draining than the peat moss-potting soil in America. Does your river soil has some sand, plus clay (that can sub. for peat moss)? Does it have 4 parts of dry organic matter like composted-pine-fines, or composted leaves? The 4 parts of fluffy stuff gives oxygen to roots, roots need air to grow .. the fluffier or airier, the better. Roots HATE dense stuff like peatmoss."

I have mentioned river soil many a times in my write ups. I think it's time to explain in little more details what river soil is and how it is formed.

River soil is brought to the plains through rivers flowing down from the glaciers located at 15000-20000 ft above sea level. This is how a glacier looks like.... (all pics below have been taken by me)

The above pics are of Baltoro Glacier and Godwin Austin Glacier which are located in Gilgit Baltistan region of Northern Pakistan. This area contains 4 Eight Thousanders (peaks over 8000 M or 26247 feet above sea level) namely K2, Broad Peak, Gasherbrum I and Gasherbrum II. There are 14 Eight Thousanders in the world. 9 are in Nepal and 5 are in Pakistan.

Glaciers are frozen rivers of ice, rocks and debris. They form in high mountains where due to low temperature, rate of snow melting is lower than the rate of snow fall. After snowfall, debris and rocks fall over it and than there is more snow. The snow, due to consistent temperature well below freezing point, converts into ice. Over millions of years, the whole valley is filled with this mass of ice, rocks and mountain debris. It is always melting at the bottom due to pressure and whatever falls on the top keeps moving down slowly as fresh snow and debris keeps falling on the top.

As rocks and debris go down the glacier, due to weight and pressure of ice they are crushed into small particles which finally drain out of the glacier in the form of a river that originates from glacier snout. The above photo is of Braldo River originating from Baltoro Glacier. As you can see, the water originating from the snout is dark, full of crushed rocks and mountain debris stays in water in the form of particles ranging from very fine to course, depending on the nature of the rock / crushed material.

When these rivers, containing tons of small particles and flowing at very fast pace in the mountains, enter the plains they slow down considerably which allows the particles to settle down and become SOIL on the river bed. This is how, over the millions of years, trillions of tons of soil reached the plains and formed the plains of great Indus Valley. These fertile plains, 7000-5000 years ago, housed one of the oldest civilizations in the world called Indus Valley or Indic Civilization. When other contemporary civilizations mainly depended on hunting and other activities, the mainstay of Indus Civilization was agriculture.

This is the story of the RIVER SOIL that I use. Even today, millions of trucks soil are taken from the river / canal beds and used by farmers and gardeners to improve the soil quality of their soils which deteriorate over the years due to extensive farming / neglect. The soil coming down from the mountains is very rich in main and trace elements and for sometime, no fertilizers are needed. It is sandy in nature and has good drainage. At the same time, it is not like desert sand and retain moisture for much longer than pure sand but less than clay. In texture, this soil is soft and when a ball of moist soil is formed, it breaks easily in the hand.

This is the soil I use in my potting mix. The last potting mix that I made contained 3 parts river soil, 1 part cottonseed cake, 1 part cattle manure and 1 part leaf compost. However, for the rose cuttings I only use river soil with nothing added to it.

Straw: After reading above, do you feel I need to mix something in this soil (like leaf compost may be or tree bark) or let it go like this. My cuttings planted in this soil IN THE CLAY POTS have mostly survived whereas cuttings in the same soil planted in plastic pots had a very low survival rate (may be 2 out of 10 or even less).

best regards

Wow !! Thank God who made such majestic mountains. And Thank you, Khalid for taking best pics ever. Chemically your river soil is very fertile, the question is how much physical space in between? If your river soil has different sizes particles: some small, some medium .. that would create air-gaps in between for best root-growth.

My dolomitic clay soil (high in magnesium & calcium) is fertile, but it has one-size particle: extremely fine clay, no air-space in between. That's why I have to mix chunky wood-chips to create air-pockets beneath. Wimpy tiny roots HATE my clay: too tight & too dense, no air.

I rooted in sand (zero nutrients) and the roots were thin like hair-strand, but that's not so with your fertile river soil with better moisture-holding capacity.

Re-post the picture of the sphagnum moss below, you'll see its fuzzy-stems create air-gaps for best root-growth. That medium of sphagnum moss and perlite is very low in nutrients, but the root grew fast thanks to the air-pockets. Roots need: 1) air pockets for oxygen 2) nutrients from minerals (plenty in your river soil) 3) fluffiness & looseness so tender root can push out. 4) moisture-retention as in organic matter (leaves, woodchips) or fine-particle clay.

I remember Roses Unlimited Nursery potting soil for their own-root: very loose, crumbly, different sizes particles of mostly small pine-bark & perlite ... the particles don't hold together, they crumble even when it's wet. Same with Burlington nursery medium of sphagnum moss & perlite (years ago): stay loose even when it's wet.

Folks use a food processor (the one for kneading dough) to shred co-coir into smaller sizes for potting medium. Co-coir (from coconuts) is expensive, plus has salt. A cheaper alternative is to use one's food processor to chop leaves into bits for potting medium. That's what I plan to use our Brevillle Sous Chef food processor, see below, to chop leaves into bits. Husband bought it so I can slice beef into thin slices for Pho (Vietnamese Beef noodle) soup, plus making fast salads. My kid broke our last Cuisinart food processor by jamming hard parmesan cheese to make pesto.

Straw: Thanks for your comments. Since sphagnum moss is not available here, I would look for something that replaces sphagnum moss and improves air circulation in the medium. How about pine bark? With an acidic pH of 4.5, would it be ok? I think it takes a long time to decompose so at least for a year or more, it will stay solid and keep doing the job of improving air circulation.

regards

Pine needles have neutral pH, rather than acidic, but pine needles doesn't retain water like pine bark. I have 2 corkscrew willow trees, the dry branches are very brittle & easily crushed . Willow branches have rooting hormone.

The food processor blade which I plan to use is for meat-grinder .. meat is WAY-MORE tough than brittle pine-park, or leaves. The size of pine-fines or sphagnum moss that the nurseries used to root roses is less than 1 cm, or less than 1/3 inch ... so meat-grinder, nut-grinder, or food processor can chop that up.

The pictures of majestic mountains in Pakistan bring peace and trust in God. God is always there, like the mountains which stand forever. THANK YOU FOR POSTING THOSE IMAGES, which brings comfort to me.

Own-root roses are very expensive, the money that I spent on own-root is way-more than what my husband paid for that fancy Breville food-processor (made in Australia).

I start a new thread: "12/15/15: wise quotes, roses or what gave you health & happiness?" See below link:

http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/3560165/m=23/12-15-15-wise-quotes-roses-and-what-gave-you-health-and-happiness

Straw wrote: "I have 2 corkscrew willow trees, the dry branches are very brittle & easily crushed . Willow branches have rooting hormone."

Great info. I read about it earlier also but had forgotten about it. I have a large weeping willow tree just next to my house. I will take branches from that tree, crush them and use them with river sand for my rose cuttings.

You are an angel Straw....

Those photo's of the glaciers are so stunning Khalid!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! you are so talented!

I'm so happy to be able to join the discussions again and to be able to read all the incredible info....thanks Strawberry Hill.. I love the way you explain all this scientific info...and how well your advice works...still NO black spot!

I also enjoyed the photo's of those roses by MsGirl... How I wish I could get hold of Distant Drums...not available over here...

it was just so busy, everyone wanted to go on holiday and I had no time at all...but from today I am off for a short while..

we had a massive heat wave... but my roses survived... (still searching for alfalfa straw for mulch)... but I've used lots and lots of leaves, huge leaves from my Loquat tree...that keeps the soil moist and allows air to circulate to keep the soil cool as well...all thanks to one of the previous posts about leaves.....

Straw: I have collected a few branches of willow tree (it's a weeping willow). Tomorrow I will crush the branches and make a paste of it. Then I will dilute the paste a little and dip the cutting in it for around 2 hours. After that, I will plant the cuttings. Can this diluted paste be added to the pot? Is this method right?

Jess; Thanks for the comments. These glaciers are really spectacular and unique. And a night on the glacier (if it's a clear night) is something that is hard to describe. At that height and with no pollution at all, one is amazed to see a sky full of millions of stars which are impossible to sight in the cities. Even the milky way can be seen so conspicuously with naked eye. There are no trees, no bushes, just a few grasses, mosses and lichens up to 15000 ft. There are hardly any animals and birds over 18000 ft. Just an odd snow eagle can be visible if one is lucky. Everything on that height is frozen.... always. Temperature is always below freezing point during entire year less a few odd days when it hardly crosses zero degrees during day. At night it is always below freezing point whole year round..... A strange place.....

regards

The diluted paste is good for the pots. Willow tree have salycilic acid, so dilution is best. I post more in your thread of rooting. I really miss seeing a sky full of stars ... can't see that in the city. We once went all the way up the tallest mountain in Colorado ... took forever to drive up there. At the summit, it's freezing and the plants are short, mossy like. Too bad I didn't take pics. of the plants.

Agree with what you wrote: At that height and with no pollution at all, one is amazed to see a sky full of millions of stars which are impossible to sight in the cities.

Thank-you Khalid for taking those pictures of the mountain glacier.

I like the fact about the 5 mountains too.

Here is a new thing about taking care of the life in the soil.

http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/main/national/soils/health/

Unlock the secrets of the soil

Commercial on TV

Here is before and after the making of my compost pile. This is 1 ft high start.

Great job Sam

Sam: The soil link you gave is excellent. My sister in CT lives in a nice village .. they give out FREE compost for people living there .. so her soil is very fluffy, and her sunflowers are twice taller than mine. My trees shed leaves on the ground (scatter all over) ... and they are 100% decomposed by June 1.

Where I piled up leaves to over 1 foot, they don't get air, and water doesn't get through either .. I dug through that pile yesterday ... saw DRY leaves beneath (we have tons of rain lately) ... So I spread my leaves out yesterday. Dug up the places where I mixed leaves with soil, they decomposed fast & fluffy & moist.

I should had bought at least 10 bags of top soil from Ace Hardware when it was on sale for $1.29 late August to layer soil with leaves. This is the 2nd time that leaves gunk up in hard-to-decompose piles. The 1st time was when I set up my Suncast-resin-raised beds in the fall, and dumped leaves in there. Then I dumped top soil in spring time, and the leaves didn't decomposed yet .. gunked together in a sheath.

All my leaves are shredded in the compost like Mike McGrath says.

I want to make the compost the way Elaine Ingham . I watch Soil food web movies on you tube. From this year on I don't have to buy anymore. Just make my own. I want to get it right. Then I can spray on the leaves to make a biofilm to protect against diseases.

Elaine says If they don't make compost aerobic it can actually be bad for plants. If they don't turn it.

Here is the wind block wraps around the 4 zone pusher roses. They are Ebb Tide, Wedgwood, Quiteness, and Alnwick.

Sam: that looks really good .. you did a good job protecting those roses. I checked annual rainfall .. you have 43" in your area, Jim has 40", and my area has 36" per year, thanks to a VERY DRY EARLY FALL (late August & September & October). Our fall is so dry, that I don't even fertilizer my lawn until AFTER Halloween (end of October). This year is wetter than normal.

I saw Bronze Star being dried out on the hill since late August, I should had put leaves on that, or moved to a wetter spot. I put leaves on OWN-ROOT Bronze Star rose too late (end of Oct), its canes are black & dead today, with temp. near 50 F, or 10 C.

Merry Christmas

I turned the shredded leaves compost it was smoking! I put two sprinkler cans of water on , and covered it again for the winter.

The northeast is a rainy place.

Merry Christmas !! I had just ordered Smart-pot in 10 gallon, only $9.97 from Amazon (free shipping). I'll buy 3 blueberry bushes this spring (Walmart sells them), put 2 in SmartPot, and 1 in the ground. Didn't know that I need 2 or more blueberry bushes to pollinate each other. Info. from About.com:

" Fertilizing blueberries - Blueberries don’t like too much fertilizer. Twice a year in the early spring works well. For organic fertilizer try blood or cottonseed meal, or a fertilizer designed for acid loving plants.

Blueberries need friends – To get your blueberries to fruit, you will need at least two blueberry plants for pollination, three plants is even better and they need to be placed relatively close together. Also it’s a good idea to grow a couple of different varieties of blueberries, because they will produce fruit at different times and extending your blueberry season.

Protect your blueberries – While growing blueberries you’ll have few pests to worry about other than birds. To protect your fruit from feathered poachers, you can cover your bushes with a light sheet or netting, a few weeks before the berries are ripe."

Sam: Do you protect your blueberries from birds? If I put Smart-pot right next to the patio, hopefully there's less pests. I re-post the info. that Bluegirl wrote on pine-fines to buy from Lowe's. I would need 1/4 pine fines with 3/4 potting soil to create the acidic soil for blueberries. Bluegirl in Texas wrote:

"I think Amazon has the sulfate of potash for ~ $11 still. See if your Lowes carries the mix ours does. It's "HapiGro Landscape Mix", sold in a big clear bag for about four dollars. Almost pure pine fines to look at it.

Here are some photos, the bag is kind of faded, it's a mostly clear bag with white on front.

dry stuff inside--looks to be mostly fine pine bark with a nugget or two of perlite.

THis is some moist stuff from inside a bucket--finger for size.

Pictures & info. above are from Bluegirl in Texas. THANK YOU, Bluegirl, for allowing me to post your info.

The last 2 winters were cold so the blueberries didn't grow very much.

I watch the big starling eat the blueberries.

I put lots of peat Moss and a little Sulfur.

Thank you, Sam, that reminds me of Texas-soil-research at the beginning of this thread: better root-growth in Smart pot (breathable fabric) OVER plastic pot, also better result with 4:1:1 (pine fines, peat moss, sand) over peat-based potting soil. Besides pine fines, I'll need a bag of peat moss, and instead of sand, I'll use chopped-up leaves to make the acidic medium for blueberry. Walmart sold Hollytone (with sulfur) cheap at end of Sept. I should had gotten 3 bags !!

An accidental discovery happened when I used soil from a long lost corner of the yard where a small pile of garden waste debris was years earlier. I took the sandy soil from that area and I mixed it in with my compost and perlite. It was magical. Plants grew so good.

I wrote in your thread "Soil day" about how fast potassium & nitrogen are released into soil below. Thus your garden-waste released nutrients downward to that sandy-soil area. The most fertile is THE SOIL BELOW THE COMPOST, rather than the compost itself (nitrogen mobility is a 10, and potassium mobility is a 3, leaches downward with rain).

On growing blueberries, someone wrote that 1/4 compost with potting soil yielded better result than potting soil alone. An excerpt from Gardenweb on growing blueberries in container: "I grow mine in 10 and 15 gallon black smart pots. Those are the felted fabric pots. I was afraid that the soil would heat up too much but they did much better in the heat than the plastic pots. I use 1/3 coir, 1/3 peat, 1/6 perlite and 1/6 sand for potting with a handful of kelp meal. I try to water with pH adjusted water. I move my pH 8.5 water to around 6 to 5 with pH down." Gardenweb poster.

*** From Straw: I'll follow Wisconsin Horticulture recommendation for blueberries: "To prepare an acidic soilless growing medium, use a mix of one part sphagnum peat moss and one part shredded pine bark.

When selecting blueberry plants, choose half-high bush cultivars as they are hardier in Wisconsin, and are relatively short in stature. Some popular half-high cultivars recommended for Wisconsin (i.e., hardy in zones 3 though 5) are ‘Northblue’, ‘Northsky’, ‘St. Cloud’, ‘Polaris’, ‘Chippewa’, ‘Northland’, and ‘North Country’. You can also select low bush blueberry cultivars such as ‘Top Hat’ (hardy to zone 5) for container production. Low bush cultivars have a dwarf (i.e., maximum 12 inch height) and spreading growth habit and typically produce smaller fruit. Most blueberry cultivars are self-fruitful and do not require another cultivar for cross pollination (‘St. Cloud’ and ‘Polaris’ are exceptions). In general however, growing more than one blueberry cultivar will improve pollination and enhance yield and berry size. "

http://hort.uwex.edu/articles/growing-blueberries-containers/