Any possibility of putting gthem back outside -this really is an emergency situation . The fish may look OK now- but they'll look OK .... until they don't.

Not sure how many fish but unless they are babies 350 gals is too small for even one koi . The fact that it smells so bad ispretty good evidence that you are seriously overstocked - what is it, an ammonia/fishy smell? (It should be noted that a healthy pond will have a lake smell that may be more noticeable indoors but its not a really bad smell IMHO.)

Given the situation, really all I can see working to get them thru the winter is doing frequent water changes using something like Prime to neutralize chlorine if necessary. Prime also detoxifies ammonia/ nitrite/nitrate and it is widely recognized as a good product.

Do try to locate some in your town asap - like TODAY. Or something else that does the same thing. If you cant locate Prime or a detoxifier, at least get dechlorinator (IF YOU NEED IT) and then get started on changing out the water ASAP. Heck if you dont need dechlorinator I think Id get to work right away changing out that bad water.

Either way, remove as much water as you safely can, gradually adding back fresh water (dechlorinated/Prime added ) - maybe like a half a tank at a time. Keep doing this today and throughout next day or so - removing/adding back in water until your water starts testing normally. Be sure new water going in is approx same temps (or can be a bit colder if its gradually added).

Then think thru long range - realistically, what will work and what is manageable throughout the winter?

Hope you are set up somewhere with a drain and faucet (basement?) where this can be easily done because you will need to be doing some degree of water changess throughout winter - daily or at least ev other day. Im thinking 30-50% but will let others w more experience with this type of situation chime in.

If you are well set up this is in fact quite doable - I usually overwinter my goldfish in a small 150 gal tank in basement and its just a task that gets done like walking a dog or cleaning the litterbox. Like you say - fish are family!

Another idea - given emergency situation - you might find someone locally - pond dealer, etc. - who can take your fish for over the winter either for a fee and get them back in the spring, or just give them up with the thought that maybe you can buy them back in the spring or maybe not.

Just following up on Kashka who gave you good advice.

No food for a few days. Small water changes, (10 to 20%). Prime to remove chorine and make ammonia less toxic. If you use a really sophisticated test, it will still test postive for ammonia but it's locked and not toxic. There is a product called API AmmoChips that will lock ammonia. I have used that in the past. Find a lingerie mesh bag in the laundry section of the grocery store unless you have a mesh bag or knee high panty hose sock type things and pour the chips into the bag, rinse, then put it in the pond maybe in the waterfall so all the water goes over it. You can refresh it using pond Salt soak after a few days. Also a great product called Amquel Plus for Ponds for ammonia. I always keep both Prime and Amquel on hand for emergencies. Thankfully, things are stable now.

Good to pay attention to Ph. It it gets too low with all that ammonia, you could have a disaster/tragedy. I keep a mesh bag of crushed coral, some people use crushed oyster shells, to buffer the water. I also keep Malawi Victoria Buffer on hand. Baking soda works short term, Malawi lasts longer.

Ammonia comes from the gills and waste. You can't slow down their breathing but you can stop feeding. It's winter, they eat much, much less. Also you should switch from growth food to a winter blend. I feed some soaked algae flakes and cherrios, twice a week. Don't worry, they won't starve.

From experience, using a smaller pond with the same volume of fish will require much more attention to water quality. I found that using water iris also really helped with better water quality. Until things calm down, you should test using a master test kit with test tubes and reactive agent, twice a day. I kept a journal to make sure I was heading in the right direction.

***test the water you will be adding from a water change. Occasionally I found that my tap water was higher in ammonia. Imagine how crazy I got after removing water to only put back high ammonia water. So know what you are replacing.

I hope things calm down for you. I know it's so stressful to watch and feel almost helpless. Just breathe! You can do this!

thank you both so much for the advice. we can definitely do small water changes more frequently - we're set up so our filter can back flush right out the window. I've been using microbe lift ammonia remover, but it's hard to tell if it's working since the total ammonia test reads the same. we got some prime, and I'll get ammochips and amquel tomorrow to make sure they're safe.

I knew it'd be more work to maintain water quality in such a small pond, but I didn't think it would be this hard to get under control - will my biofilter ever get established with happy nitrifying bacteria? I'm testing the water - ammonia, ph, kh, nitrites - at least twice a day, but nothing ever seems to change. how do you all feel about products that are supposed to add beneficial bacteria to your water? I've been using pl once a week, and the only effect it's had so far is to make me gag as I'm measuring it! also nite out, which doesn't seem to help either.

testing the water we're adding is a great idea - I'm going to do that right now. thank you!!

oh I forgot - I've barely been feeding them, which is killing me because they practically stand up in the water begging every time they see me. anyways, they eat tomagoi tategoi, I wonder if that has too much protein? I'm sure they'd enjoy algae wafers just as much, they're not picky... they've tried really hard to eat my test tubes.

do you give them regular plain cheerios?

ok, now I'm really confused. we tested the ammonia before and after a water change, and it read exactly the same. so we tested the water we were adding, and it had no detectable ammonia in it. so why didn't the water change make a difference??

It could take weeks to get the biofilter cultivated.
Yes, I use just plain cherrios.
Yes, they will come and act like they are starving. I pet mine and spend time by the pond. I know it goes against our nature to not feed/nurture but until you get the biofilter happy, you need to not kill them with kindness.
How about another tank for some of the smaller fish to take some of the load off this filter?
You know to clean the filter with pond water?

I know there are products designed to help getting the filter established and I did use some but I can't say they helped but they didn't hurt either. I have read that some people get dirty water from an established filter to add to their new filter to speed things along. Eh, don't know how I really feel about that either.

I use two filters, one pressurized biofilter and a sponge filter set up for the water fall. I like the sponge filter set up and they aren't too expensive. It cultivated quickly, too.
Also, I am sure you have checked to make sure their isn't something dead causing the ammonia level, right?

If the water you are adding has chlorine, then that chlorine will cycle through the filter which could kill off nitrifying bacteria. As much as a pain it will be, try to treat the water before adding it to the pond OR what I do is drain off some water, turn off filter, add water and Treatment. Let it sit a bit to mix in, then turn the filter back on. That way, no chlorine will bother the bacteria.

Try small water changes twice a day over the weekend. No feeding and see if you can get the ammonia level moving to a lower level.

If you added ammonia detoxifier, this will give a positive since the ammonia is still there, just changed into a non-toxic form. What do you mean by "small" water change - what percentage of water was replaced with fresh water. I would do something quite substantial 30-50% if it doesn't stress or crowd fish too much... and then fill back up slowly, test again, and if need be drain out another 30-50%, test again, etc.

You know without looking at your exact set up - cant really say whether you can expect a good nitrification cycle- too many variables. I kinda think given size of tank/no. of fish it could be the ammonia from fish waste/breathing and dissolved organic compounds will overwhelm the system no matter what. Even if you have great bio=filtration with a lot of surface area to grow beneficial bacteria you will still need to deal with nitrate and get plants established - by then it could be spring and youd be moving the fish back out! So, without plants established youll STILL be needing to do frequent substantial water changes..... so that's why Im suggesting that you simply might want to make the substantial water changes your routine from the get go. Also if you can put them in a colder place - garage or basement - the fish will go dormant and produce less waste though youll still have to do some water changes.

Otherwise, you might check out one of the koi forums where theres more professionals and dealers - ie more expertise about how to maintain koi health in small quarters. Most of the real sophisticated koi set ups involve some degree of constant water change (flowing in and out) and/or specialized techie equipment to handle the volume of waste.

Sadly the manufacturers that sell to homeowners often vastly overstate the capabilities of their equipment and they will blithely will tell you it can handle this many gallons or this many fish ..... to the detriment of the fish's health. It can be a steep learning curve for some of us (I too had to learn the hard way - was limping along using this RIDICULOUS pondmaster filter that said it was good for 1000 gallons. A few fish deaths later, I finally got wise to the fact that a lot of what the manufacturers say is complete and total BS. Had to do my own research.

There is a chlorine filter that screws to the end of a hose that greatly simplifies water changes - works on chlorine only but not chloramine so be sure you know whats in your water. If you use this filter you STILL will want to add Prime to the new water because a) the hose filter may not remove all chlorine and b) Prime adds nitrifying bacteria and other stuff which is good for the fish. I add the right amount of Prime to bucket of tank water, sprinkle around the tank, then tricklein the new water via the hose filter.

I don't think there's any chlorine in our water - we have a private well. I know there's no ammonia... is there anything else I should test for that could be causing a problem despite the prime?

definitely nothing dead - all the fish are here, and I can see everything in the water, there couldn't be anything hiding... I checked the roots of my plants for decay and they all look healthy.

and how do you clean the filter with pond water?

filters.... could you tell me more about the sponge filter that you like? and the ridiculous pondmaster filter - what was wrong with it? what are you doing differently based on your research?

I have attached a few articles that may answer some of your questions. Also I wanted to share information on the sponge filter and pressurized filter that I have just so you would have an idea, not saying you should buy anything. It's what worked for me. I should again clarify these are my experiences and opinions on what worked for me. Some are quick to judge without walking in the proverbial moccasins.

Koi and Ponds have the potential to be an expensive and time consuming hobby but also very rewarding and enjoyable. I have had several filter set ups. Looking back they were not good enough but I hadn't done enough homework at that time. It was all I could do and afford and they worked. And BTW, I always keep an extra pump big enough to run my pressurized filter because one night in the summer, my pump died.

In time my fish grew and I needed to build a new pond. It was only because of a crisis that we quickly got plans together, bought liner and pumps, filters and did the construction. My pond is basically a large outdoor tank (lack of space in yard, on a lake with herons). While I would love having more, this is all I can do and it works for all of us, fish included.

When my pond was in crisis, it was the American Aquarium site that I learned the most from. I purchased all my filters, pumps, and food from them. I felt better as I read and learned what to do and more importantly, what not to do. For me and my fish, they were life savers.

The Koi forums are full of valuable information.
These are serious Koi keepers and breeders and even amongst themselves will disagree on what to do. Still, worth poking around because you will learn something.

In my area, we have an annual Koi competition. It probably happens more, I just know about this one. You could see if you have something like that where you live and perhaps see if they have meetings. You might make some good contacts that way or not.
Pond keeping is much like any other hobby in that you will have multiple opinions. Take what you need and leave the rest. I know in time your pond will complete it's cycle and you will get past this. Kat is right, you will be heading into spring and well, lets get past this first.
I hope some of this helps. Better days are ahead.


http://www.koi-bito.com/forum/main-forum/14220-high-ammonia-well-water.html


http://www.koi-bito.com/forum/main-forum/16082-help-new-pond-syndrome-going-crazy.html


http://www.koi-bito.com/forum/main-forum/1408-water-changes.html


http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/sponge_filtration.html


http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/ClearStreamPondFilter.html

You should check for sure that theres no chlorine (as you know it kills fish) but if not then maintaining constant daily exchange of water in and out sounds like a very workable solution IMHO at least to get you thru the winter - perhaps theres a way to set this up so that its easy to do.

The pondmaster filter was way, way, way undersized for my # of gallons and fish - it could hardly keep up with mechanical filtration let alone bio - so am now using this: http://www.matalausa.com/subcat44.html Disclaimer: Im not saying this is the answer to anything - theres too many variables and unknowns about your situation, and keeping koi healthy in heavily stocked situation is above my pay grade - LOL.

Just saying the info is out there - do you have a local koi club or pond guru - may have to travel a little for a pond store where they really know what they're talking about - but its well worth the effort if you can find those people locally. The typical local Home Depot, big box pet store, or garden center isnt going to know much, which is fine, but what gets me is they often won't admit that they dont know and try to make it sound like they do. The best starting point IMHO is to look at # and type of fish you have or want to have, and then do the research to determine what will provide them the best & healthiest conditions - then look at the cost/effort involved and then either do it or reconsider your fish load.

ok, thank you - a pond builder dug our outdoor pond, but we don't have a good resource on water quality/koi health. the best place we've found is a garden center where they seem to be fairly knowledgeable - but that said, they haven't been able to help - they've just sold us a bunch of microbe lift stuff. I'll start looking farther away for good pond stores - you're right, it'd definitely be worth the drive.

Is there any reason the fish were not able to stay outside? Usually this kind of situation was considered when designing and digging the koi pond. For example, digging the pond with a deep enough section so that the pond won't freeze all the way, or even prepping some kind of water heater device out to the pond so that certain sections of the pond surface won't freeze over. Even turning on a bubbler or water-spitting fountain could keep the water in motion enough to not freeze except on the coldest of cold nights.

Anyway, regardless of those options, your indoor pond option is pretty impressive. You must have a spouse or family who really loves you and the fish.

While you will be preparing some water immediately with Prime, you could also get some other water and let them sit out. With the many water changes that you are doing, having some ready water will be good, too.

I also have added large amounts of rain water to the pond without any adverse effects to the fish, in case you get rainfall and don't want to try your well water....which, if we are looking at this, is one of the big differences from what your pond water is, where the same fish resided. Maybe it's not the combination of adding fish to the indoor pond, but the well water that you are using, which has some reaction with the process you are doing.

Thank you so much, meyerk, for all the great info and the encouragement. They're definitely time consuming and expensive, but I love these fish. Love them! I'm about to look at your links... Thanks again for taking the time to help.

How is the water testing now? Better I hope.
After I posted I went out to my pond and found my large Pleco had passed. He was about a foot long. I had him many years and it's okay that he is gone. They supposedly are big waste producers. Anyway, less load on the whole micro ecosystem.