It's not easy to read those plans! Could you please post a larger version of the first floor (the floor w/the Kitchen)?

If you're talking about what I think you are, you do not want to move the refrigerator. Your island is verging on becoming a "barrier island" as it is, moving the refrigerator to the left makes it a definite barrier!

However, you may have to move it to the left about 6" to 9" to allow it to open fully. Yes, it will make the island more of a barrier, but if it's b/w not being able to open the refrigerator doors fully and a barrier, I'd probably take the barrier - but don't move it more than 6" to 9".

Too bad you're not open to other changes...

Leave the fridge where it is for reasons stated above (even though I personally hate a fridge next to a corner pantry especially if another tall thing isn't on the other side of the pantry for balance). If you use the microwave mostly for re-heating leftovers, then put a microwave in the cabinetry next to the fridge. It's a good idea to extend those cabinets, but you need to make the space useful for something and a microwave is a good use of the space. Store your microwavable bowls, etc, there, too.

Sorry, here are a couple that are easier to see:

The desk area is slated to be upper/lower cabinets with the counter continued. Cabinets will all be 42", not staggered. I thought maybe move the fridge where the desk is next to the archway out of the way of the island? If I keep the fridge where it is the left door should be able to open enough (the pantry wall is 31")...right?

Thanks for the feedback so far. I don't know if they'll let us use different sized cabinets such as a 12" run next to the pantry (which would be 100% wasted space) but I can ask. So it would be too tight if I moved the fridge to where the cabinet/counter space is before the desk area starts? There would be about 42" between the island and closed fridge give or take. The plan for that side of the kitchen is to have the microwave and espresso machine over there.

I don't think the island will be a barrier at all with the fridge moved down. You'll be unloading onto the island for prep. You're not walking around it with a handful of food items.

Do you think you'll like the espresso maker there without a water source? We tried putting our electric kettle on a counter about 8' from the sink and it took too many steps to prepare coffee. We also didn't have trash under that counter, so be sure you have a trash pull-out in that cabinet run for your MW.

Are you sure you aren't interested in other changes to your plan which would give you a more efficient kitchen to work in?

Yes, I'm sure. We've walked through the kitchen multiple times and the layout works very well for us. I like the corner pantry, the range is on its own wall, and the dishwasher is placed nicely next to the sink. The only wall I'm unsure about is the fridge...and only because I need to make sure I can open the refrigerator door enough. We're not interested in any changes that would cost extra money.

You'll need to make sure that they are allowing more than 36" for the fridge if it is next to a wall. The drawers of many fridges can't open unless the doors open more than 90 degrees.

Thanks for your help, buehl. I like the idea of scooting the fridge over some, but if I did I'd want to move it over more than 9" which is why I thought it might be okay where you designed the command center or next to that. Why do you not recommend scooting the fridge all the way over there? I'm just trying to understand.

I know Buehl will be able to explain the barrier island much better then I can, but maybe my little diagram will help....

Now with the blue triangle, which would be if you moved the fridge down to where you want it, the path from fridge to the sink goes across the island. Fridge to stove clips the corner. From my understanding, that is called a barrier island.

I assume they must have done extensive studies in order to make these basic kitchen rules or guidelines that kitchen designers follow. I am imaging more then a few cooks with bruised up hips must have proved that a barrier island is a poor kitchen design. :-)

Congrats on you new build.

Rebunky is showing you what I was describing - yes, it's called a "barrier island" and it's often one of the main driving forces to remodel a Kitchen! (That and counterspace and reasonable workflow).

You only need 9" b/w the wall and the refrigerator - you might even be able to get away with 6". Why? Because the pantry wall, while too deep to allow the refrigerator doors to be opened fully, is not so deep that you need 12". 6" or 9" will get the refrigerator far enough away from that wall that you will be able to open all doors fully & be able to pull out all interior drawers. [The doors of all refrigerators except true built-in refrigerators need to extend out past adjacent walls/cabinets/counters/etc. to allow doors and interior drawers to be opened fully. By putting a wide enough cabinet b/w the wall and refrigerator, you fix the issue.]

I chose 9" b/c I thought it would be a more useful width than 6" unless....

If you "build in" the refrigerator by surrounding it with 3/4" finished end panels (to the depth of the refrigerator carcass/box) & topping it with a 24" deep cabinet above - instead of the basic builder-grade 12" deep (& in accessible) cabinet over the refrigerator - then you can put in a 6" filler pullout b/w the wall and the refrigerator. Filler pullouts attach to adjacent cabinets or walls and, therefore, do not need cabinet walls - so you get more usable space (but they can only be placed b/w walls and cabinets - not standalone ranges or DWs b/c they don't have walls to attach the pullout to.)

If you or your DH are handy and can do moderate-level DIY, then you might consider having them leave that 6" gap and then installing a pullout in that space later yourself. [IKEAFans used to have the instructions for it, but IKEA, shortsightedly IMHO, shut down the site. There are some threads with information and I have some photos of how it was done, if you're interested.]

A final note about building in the refrigerator - I think a Kitchen looks more "finished" and high-end when the refrigerator is built-in instead of hanging out there like so many builders do.

The Message/Command Center is situated so that it's convenient as a drop zone for keys, etc. It can be as simple as a counter with a cabinet above or, as many here have done, a tall cabinet with a counter a the standard counter height (36" off the floor) and doors on the top that slide into the cabinet when open. When closed, they hide any mess you may have in the Center. Search for "Sweeby's Organization Closet" to see an example.

Just found some threads (there are probably a lot of duplicate pictures, but there's other information as well.)

hidden message center anyone?

Can I see your message centers?

Show me your message center!

Anyone Have A Kitchen Message Center?

Message Center Pics

Let me see your: Message Center

Kitchen Message Center Help

OK, I couldn't find a picture of Sweeby's org closet online, so here's what I have:

One more DIY suggestion. If the garage is big enough, consider taking part of it and making it a Mudroom with cubbies for each family member (backpacks, purses, etc.), bench for taking off boots, drawers for boots/gloves/scarves, a place for sports gear, and a large enough closet to fit all the family's coats, etc.

But, do it yourself later, the builder would probably charge you a fortune to do it.

Rebunky's diagram illustrates the problem with a barrier island quite well. Your fridge and pantry are already too far from the sink for an efficient layout but it's workable. The extra steps plus having to turn around a barrier island makes for a very inefficient kitchen.

I rarely disagree with Buehl, it almost seems sacreligious, but the aisle between island and range is a major thoroughfare and needs a wider aisle. Whenever possible, traffic paths should not be routed through the cook's zone, for safety so cook has plenty of room to maneuver without stepping back into somebody walking behind them. Yet, that's what you're planning. S I suggest a minimum of 48" counter-edge to counter-edge in that aisle, a few more inches would be even better.

And I rarely disagree with FunkyCamper - even now, she has a point! Since your layout doesn't follow the Kitchen workflow of

Refrigerator --> Sink (Prep Zone) --> Range (Cooking Zone)

...she's right about probably needing a wider aisle b/c of all the zone-crossing that will be happening.

Marcolo has a humorous thread about workflow - the infamous "Ice. Water. Stone. Fire." thread!

http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2699918/looking-for-layout-help-memorize-this-first

Thank you both for your continued help and explaining things in more detail.

Here are a few measurements that you probably can't see on the actual plan:

Island to Range counter: 5'3 1/2"

Island to DW counter: 3'2 1/2"

Island to Fridge counter: 3'9 1/2"

Size of island: 5' x 3'9" (only 9" eating bar...but we don't want to eat at the island)

Wall depth next to Fridge: 2'8"

So...just to ask one more time, I wouldn't have enough room between the island and the fridge if I moved it closer to the center of that wall? Maybe not exactly centered, but somewhere in between... I'd be open to getting a counter depth fridge if that would make enough difference. :) I just really want it to work there!

I will ask the builder if we can do a 9" cabinet or something next to the pantry but I'd be shocked if it didn't cost extra. We're paying $1175 additional just to have wall/base cabinets and counter where it shows the "optional" desk. Hah.

Lisa, I'm curious...why is it exactly you want the fridge centered on that wall? Rebunky's diagram shows why the fridge would work in the current layout better than having it scooted down. Is there a reason you want/need it moved further from the pantry?

It looks like a counter-depth refrigerator already - is the floorplan not accurate?

You don't have a wide enough aisle at 2'8" (32") b/w the island and the refrigerator right now - moving it won't really help b/c then you're creating a barrier island - which is a real PITA over time! I'd rather have the "pinch point" than a barrier!

To be clear - we do have a pinch point in front of our refrigerator (b/c of our KD's measuring mistakes) - ours is even narrower - 31". It's b/w our refrigerator and peninsula. Yes, it occasionally is an issue (like this Thanksgiving on and off), but not that often. It's the only path to the DR, LR, and Library, so it's not a less-used path, it's a relatively busy path - it's still workable. If it were a longer distance than about 42" or had seating on that aisle, it would be an issue, but neither apply, so it was a compromise we chose to accept since it was found after the cabinets were installed. (If it had been found during the design phase, I would have insisted we fix it.)

Bottom line...

A pinch point that's occasional is workable, but not ideal b/c there won't be someone coming through that aisle at the same time you have the refrigerator open that often.

On the other hand, a barrier island issue is constant and would be a PITA and not workable b/c it will be an issue every time you prep/cook and for each of the several trips you will probably be making b/w the refrigerator and sink or range during each prep/cooking session as well!

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With the exception of the aisle b/w the range and the island, all your aisles are tight! No one, e.g., will be able to pass b/w an open DW and the island - even to unload the DW or clear the dishes from the table. You need approximately 45".

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I would reduce the island - make it 4' and take 7" and put it b/w the sink and island and the other 5" b/w the refrigerator and island.

That would give you aisles b/w the island and:

Sink wall: 38" + 7" = 45"

Refrigerator: 32" + 5" = 37"

A 5' island can only seat 2 people (2' per person is the recommended minimum). A 4' island also seats 2 people - so no loss of seats.

9" overhang? Wow! That's shallow! (if you have a decorative end panel/door, then it's probably only 8"). Obviously your builder does not have a Kitchen Designer on staff! (Sheesh!)

So you understand what's happening here...an excerpt from the Layout Kitchen FAQ:

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"Preface/A Piece of Advice: When you post a layout for comments, please do not take the comments you receive personally. Everyone here is trying to help, not criticize maliciously. We want you to have a kitchen that, in the end, functions wonderfully well and looks nice overall. This may mean that some of us may tear apart your layout and rebuild it to what we think will work better, but it is done with good intentions. We are not the best at just "validating" someones layout, we are best at critiquing!

I will warn you that most of us here are "function over form" (or "function first")...meaning we strive first for a functional layout and then fit the form or look around it. It is far easier to make a functional kitchen look nice than it is to make a nice looking but dysfunctional kitchen functional.

. . .

Warning: People may comment anyway [even if you say you're not interested in fixing the issues], it is tough to let a kitchen go that you think is dysfunctional and will cause angst later...especially if it is not yet installed and we think we can help. Bear with us, we are just trying to help!"

Will it cost that much more to change the size of the island to make it smaller?

If so, leave it as-is and put extra money into fixing the refrigerator issue - putting in a 9" cabinet b/w the pantry wall and the refrigerator. Not being able to open the doors fully would also be a PITA to deal with - especially when you need to access the interior drawers or clean it. (Unless you're someone who never cleans his/her refrigerator - we actually had someone recently tell us they don't clean out their refrigerator!)

Pulling out the refrigerator from the wall to access the drawers or clean it is not like it used to be. Today, there are water lines you have to worry about crimping (or being long enough) and anti-tilt devices that are now installed for every refrigerator that you have to deal with.

llucy, I wanted to center the fridge just to avoid having issues not being able to open the doors completely. I know there's really not enough space between the island and an open fridge to be comfortable, just wanted it to work. Then, I thought it could work moving it to the far left so the doors could open plus it wouldn't be in the way when people wanted to access it. I understand it's not functional for the working triangle but I'm still not sure that it's worse than having it directly to the pantry (if I can't add a 9" cabinet).

buehl, having a smaller island should theoretically be less money...they probably wouldn't charge me to take a foot off. If I did what you suggested there by adding 5" of walkway space on that side by repositioning the smaller island, would I gain enough space to more or less center the fridge (doesn't need to be centered, just have normal sized counters on both sides)?

Here is another photo I have of the same floorplan with what appears to be a standard depth fridge...also, they have a second pantry or closet where I will have extra counter/cabinets:

Lisa, thanks for explaining. As someone who is in and out of her r/f all day long getting ice and chilled bev's, and 2-3 times a day taking out food to microwave - the placement of your r/f and micro wouldn't bother me. Bumping into an island would surely get annoying though, so that's why l asked about your motivation for centering the r/f directly across from the island.

Looking at the picture you submitted, I can see why you might prefer the r/f where the second pantry is.

Here is what I was thinking...(different floorplan but similar kitchen layout, though my floorplan has a longer span along the fridge wall, bigger island, and I think our nook is even bigger):

In our plan the fridge would look more like part of the kitchen and not like part of the nook.

Well, centering the fridge would give you paths like the yellow lines. So it wouldn't be as much as a barrier island but you would still have to swerve around the corner.

But I do agree that the island should be shorter so you have bigger aisles so the fridge and DW doors, when open, aren't such barriers.

I went to the model home today to measure the fridge they have in a similar space. It's a different floorplan but the pantry is similar or identical an d the fridge is directly next to it. The pantry wall measured 29" and the rough opening was about 38" wide. The actual fridge they have was 30.75" deep including doors (excl handles) but the fridge box itself was only 27.5" (no doors). The fridge door opened fully with no issue at all and did not bang into the pantry door. I should be fine if I get a counter depth fridge. Here's the model home fridge:

That's a standard-depth refrigerator. The plan shows a counter-depth. If you go with a standard depth, the doors & handles will stick out farther than a counter-depth but the pantry wall will no longer be an issue. If you go with counter-depth, on the other hand, it may still be an issue - they're around 24" deep without doors and handles.

How wide was the refrigerator? It doesn't look like it's 36" wide if that alcove is 38" wide. Standard depth usually start at 36" wide, so you won't have the extra inches b/w the wall and refrigerator that I see in the latest picture.

Plan for an alcove that will fit at least a 36"W x 72"H refrigerator - that's the "standard" most refrigerator manufacturers seem to be landing on. You want to be able to find a refrigerator to fit in the alcove in the future b/c, yes, any refrigerator you get will probably die within 10 years - that's how they're built these days *sigh*

You don't want to pay high end prices to get one to fit. We periodically have someone coming here in a panic b/c they cannot find a refrigerator to fit their alcove - 30" is usually the issue, but as time goes on, even 33" will probably become an issue.

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This is your Kitchen - it's ultimately up to you to decide what to do. We're giving you our advice so any decisions you make are made with knowledge - you now have enough information to make an informed decision. You decide now where you are willing to compromise.

Good luck! I hope everything turns out the way you envision it.

The fridge pictured above is 35.5ish wide and the open space along the right is about 2".

It's technically a standard fridge, but it's still smaller than almost every other standard fridge out there in terms of depth when I went to Lowe's today to measure other options. I think this is the fridge pictured:

http://www.lowes.com/pd_486058-46-WRS325FDAM_1z10e4fZ1z10e4lZ1z11pmaZ1z140kk__?productId=4752195&pl=1

I measured the depth without handles at approx. 30.75" but specs say 32.375" so I guess I measured incorrectly. But, seeing this fridge work in that spot makes me a little more hopeful that if I choose a fridge with easily accessible crisper drawers (not the type that has a skinny one the full width of the fridge) then I should be okay.