Ben, I lost my Denathor!! I'll have to ask Josh for a cutting of my original..Yours is doing so well as well as all of your jades..Beautiful buddy!

What is the mix you use and do you water/fertilize often? Great job!

Ben, please check this thread out..Thank you

http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/3524754/crassula-red-horn-picture-thread?n=12

Hi, Ben!

variegatas are beautiful, no doubt. But it's very interesting "Silver Dollar" with alternating leaves. Is it really arborescens? Have you bought this plant with this mutation?

Arborescens x ovata seedlings are similar on arborescens without wax coating. As 'Blue Hale'?

Oksana.

Just beautiful, Ben.

Hi,

Marguerite, the most prominent difference between variegated forms of ovata and arborescens is the bluish color and the waxy/bloomy/rimy coating (don't know which adjectiv is correct). In addition, arborescens cultivars generally show a much wider and more intensive red rim along the leaves when grown in full light.

Daniel, i have a "Hydrofarm Commercial T5 Armatur" with four 24W tubes and 6400 Kelvin. I chosed the T5 tubes as i don't like the color of plant LEDs and as they are much cheaper.

Mike, I also checked the other thread on "Red Horn Trees". Unfortunatelly all my bigger plants are overwintering in a green house right now so that i can't contribute a phote of mine. Your "Red Horn" is indeed huge now ... I think when i was sending you the cutting some years ago it was only 10 cm. You are really a speed grower :)

If you want i can send you a cutting of Denethor next spring. But maybe it is easier and more safe (custom service) to get it from Josh or Glen.

Over the last years I tried several different potting mixes. However as I grow my plants outdoor in summer I always had problems with rotting in humid and cold times that we have quite often here in Germany. I also tried Al's Gritty Mix but several of my test plants also rotted within relatively short periods of time (especially arborescens cultivars). I think under my conditions the pine bark kept the substrate too moist for to long time. Moreover, in my opinion pine bark might be also a substrate for fungi (eventhough it contains suberin).

After researching the internet and many cacti and succulent web sites I tried my own, pure anorganic mix (particle size 2,5-5mm) which until now seems to work quite well for me:

60% pumice (grey color)

20% zeolith (blue color) -> buffers the pH-value and stores nutrients

20% Kieselgur (red color) -> burned diatomaceous earth that lowers the pH of pumice (>7) to the more acidic range (pH 6 - 7). Moreover the fine dust particles of Kieselgur should prevent from bugs/insects.

Since i changed to this substrate i fertilize with every watering in a low concentration with "Wuxal Super" (quite similar to Foliage Pro).

Besides the soil I also changed the kind of pots. Eventhough from the aestethic point of view i prefer round pots, now most of my plants grow in foursquare pots ... this optimizes the space/soil ratio (i.e. more available soil per plant on the same space) and most important significantly reduces the soil temperature in summer as the sun can't shine on the sides of the pots. The difference to rounded pots under my conditions was more than 10-20°C.

Oksana, yes it is really a "Silver Dollar" ... it was a side branch of my bigger plant. Once I also found alternating leaves on one of my Denethors but it was unstable and disappeared after a while. I guess it is the same as with "three leaves per node" that frequently can be found on leaf-propagated ovatas.

I always thought "Blue Hale" is just a synonym for "Blue Bird" or one of the "var. undulatifolia"-forms.

regards,

Ben

Super collection, Ben! So many unique varieties.

Your 'Denethor' has quite a bit of pink in the blooms, much more than mine!

Josh

Great looking neat set up plus some stunning plants! The 'compact centre variegated' is particularly attractive, never seen one of those before. As for the Denethor in flower, that is a great achievement, it's a relatively small plant too.....great growing.

Gill UK

Gill, not to take anything away from Ben's gardening prowess, but 'Denethor' is known for its precociousness - one of the traits that makes it so desirable.

Josh

Ben, thanks very much for defining the differences between the variegated Crassulas ovata and arborescens. The reason I asked is, that I have recently seen some plants for sale on eBay Australia which were said to be variegated C. arborescens, but which looked just like variegated C. ovata ssp obliqua to me. Maybe the leaf colour is just not clear in photos.

Awesome colour and clean setup!

Ben, thank you so much! Thank you for explaining things and for being a part of the plants I have) Great job

Ben, love seeing your updates. That small 'Denethor' is incredible. Is it a cutting from yours? Mine has put on a lot of new growth recently and I am even getting a branch or two. No flowers for me so far.

I also really enjoy that 'Silver Dollar' with alternating leaves. Are you going to attempt to propagate even though it may be unstable? I don't think I have seen any jade like that before. Very interesting, indeed.

-Erica

Ben,

You are the true Jade Master. Excellent work. That Compact Center Variegata after winter light is my favourite.

Is that MY Rubra?

Christopher

Hi,

Marguerite, i also saw these "arborescens variegata" on ebay Australia and I agree that they looked more like Tricolor than an arborescens. However from time to time you can also find the true cultivar on ebay Australia.

Erica, yes it is a cutting of my bigger Denethor and yes i will try to propagate the alternating form of Silver Dollar. We will see how it developes and when it is branching for the first time.

Christopher, yes it is the Rubra that I got from you. It developed well and i'm glad that it kept its red color ... however this summer it got quite green and only under the winter light returned red.

All the best,
Ben

Thanks indeed, Ben.

I hope your new-type silver dollar plant may grow a bit faster than the original. I have a rooted cutting with two leaves and no growing point sitting in a pot for months and months. It seems to be comatose.

Well my second led setup for jades

And at night

I was switched the first led fixture under upper shelve and 2 LFL per 18W under lower one last year

Ben

for comparison my 'Blue Hale' and undulatifolia

'Blue Hales' have less waxy bloom and more flavonoids on the leaves.

Oksana, thanks for the pictures of your setup. It looks really nice with all this colorfull pots. I think your blue hale is probably another variant/form of the undulatifolia group ... maybe the same as my "Blue Jade" or "Blue Bird". The other arborescens on the right seems to be "Blue Waves".

Do you have also pictures of your reverted Gollum?

Ben

Oksana, nice little setup you have. So in winter, how much actual daylight do you have there? How long do you keep the lights on?

Even though there is limited sunshine in winter in this part of the US, I do not use supplemental lighting. Maybe I should have tried it, but my plants like it in the south facing windows without it, from what I can see.

Christopher

Ben, thank you for you offer..You are always kind to me...I will let you know)

If there is anything you want from me just let me know.

Oksana, I need that watermelon container! Great collection!

Ben

oh my English!

I don't have a reverted Gollum. I have Coral which had grew Gollum's leaves with blue light excess. My first led-fixture emits more blue light. And I was lucky that my first fixture
has more blue. I have noticed that my pure Coral grew only Gollum's
leaves under that one. Now Coral is under red led of my second fixture.
The second fixture has excess of red light. And my Coral grow only Coral's
leaves now.

So, my Gollum is located under the blue led of my second fixture with red excess always. To avoid a growth Gollum's leaves.

How do you think what undulatifolia is called 'Blue Bird'?

Hi Oksana,
the second arborescens picture might be a "Blue Bird".

regarding, your observation with your finger jade that got smaller, gollum like leaves under blue light there might be an easy explanation. It is well known that blue light reduces length growth and makes plants more compact, whereas red light leads to increased length growth and may cause etiolated-like growth. Generally it is common to find some gollum-like leaves also on coral/skinny finger jades. However, on your picture i don't see any unnormal leaves on your skinny fingers (second pic).

Ben

Hi Ben,

can you find these articles mentioned in http://www.crassulaceae.ch/de/artikel?akID=31&aaID=3&aiID=B&aID=2403

In his article “Crassulas in Californian Gardens” (CSJ US vol. XLIV, 1972) J.R. Brown shows two photos of a plant called Crassula ‘Blue Bird’. This plant had been published by Boom in the Dutch journal Succulenta 42 (6), 1963, as C. portulacea ‘Blauwe Vogel’ and again in Succulenta 59 (6), 1980, as C. ovata ‘Blauwe Vogel’ (‘Blauwe Vogel’ meaning the same as ‘Blue Bird’).

I seem the second undulatifolia is true C. arborescens ssp. undulatifolia, a name validly published by Toelken in 1974 or ISI 2005-16 : Crassula arborescens ssp. undulatifolia TOELKEN.

So, the frst is Crassula arborescens ssp. undulatifolia Zuurberg (Lavranos) or 'Blue Burd'

Oksana.

Does anyone know anything about C. arborescens angustifolia?

I know its gorgeous and this post is killing me.

Richard

Is that it in the photo, Oksana?

Oksana,

From your second link re: blue jades, the official description of ISI 2005-16 : Crassula arborescens ssp. undulatifolia TOELKEN, there is a paragraph you did not include in your post, which adds some interesting information that is relevant:

"In cultivation two somewhat different forms are grown – one with fairly big leaves and one with smaller and more undulated leaves, the former has been distributed as ISI 2005-16. Both forms are C. arborescens ssp. undulatifolia, they have no cultivar names."

I have a small plant that was sold as "Blue Hale" which has the longer/larger leafs. From looking on ebay and other places, it seems "Ripple" is the name often assigned to the smaller leaf version.

Just because a website says "they have no cultivar names" does not mean they are the same cultivar/genetics - they are clearly two different plants on some level. But I am not a horticulturalist or botanist and have only a passing knowledge of these things.

Maybe we can agree on names for small and large leaf undulatifolia, or just call them "small leaf" and "large leaf" which seems the most proper designation, at least, based on the info in crassulaceae.ch website.

Daniel

Oksana, I agree with Daniel ... one has to be always sceptical. Crassulaceae.ch is a website that is mainly dedicated to species so probably their information on cultivars is not always complete.
I have three forms of "non Silver Dollar"-arborescens that maybe all are forms of var. undulatifolia:

- a small one with very wavy, curved leaves (often called Blue Waves or Ripple Jade)

- a medium one with non wavy leaves (i baught it as Blue Jade but i guess it is the the same as Blue Bird)

- a larger one with very long leaves (that looks like your pic of C.arborescens angustifolia and sometimes is also called Blue Bird)

probably there are even more forms on the market. I think it is almost impossible to find the "official" correct names for the different undulatifolia-forms/cultivars as the names all are used for all of the forms synonymious in the internet and as there are even more synonyms like "Blue Hale" or "Blue Spur".

Ben

My "blue hale" - as described by vendor. Was in awful condition so I removed some of the leaves, it is now growing for me. Not sure if big leaves are due to growing conditions before it was in my care, or if new leaves will get so big under my conditions. Currently grows under 6400K t5ho in similar fixture to Ben.

Do you think this is the small, medium or large variety? I think probably medium / "blue bird", but I have no basis for comparison. For scale, the long leafs are just under 3" long.

Daniel

Hi, for me it looks like the large form with narrow and long leaves ... my speciment flowered very early as a quite young plant with rose flowers and a comparable strong honey smell.

https://flic.kr/p/qnp1uj

Margaret,

yes, it's photo of C. arborescens angustifolia (Crimean Botanical garden) from Lapshin website.

Daniel, Ben,

no, no, no! 'Blue Jade' or 'Blue Hale' are not species, they are possibly hybrids arborescens x ovata. I just don't know exactly what Crassulas. Because the last can produce both flavonoids (as ovata) as wax (as arborescens) on their leaves in full sun.

And C. undulatifolia Toelken (lanceolate leaves) and C.undulatifolia Zuurberg (ovate to obovate) are different slightly.

Oksana.

I'm pretty confused on the classifications of all the blue jade at this point, but not very concerned. If I get flowers anything like that picture you linked, Ben, I'll be very happy :)

As it is, I'm quite happy with every one of my jades, though many have names that are in debate.

Back to the topic of lights - is it possible to force C. Ovata to flower by manipulating photo period in a controlled environment, does anyone know?

Daniel

Christopher,

I'm sorry. I may not have time to understand and to reply in time.

Our daylight lasts from ~14h. on Sept. 1 to ~7h. on Dec. 22. So I keep the lights on 6-12 h. My window faces north-east.

Ben,

your understanding of the light spectrum is slightly simplified. My 'Coral' is not etiolated

Hej Oksana, offcourse it was just a simple try of an explanation :)In the end and based on your "experimental setup" it is hard to tell if it is really the light color that controls the leaf type of the different finger jades. To answer this question one would need a repeated study design with several cuttings under both light conditions and only one changing parameter (i.e. red or blue light) while all other conditions stay constant (like soil and nutrition).

regards,

Ben

Daniel, I believe flowering in Jades is triggered more by temperature than by lighting. I know I kept some of my Jades outside all summer, May to October, and two of them are flowering. Most of my better ones I kept inside, and none flowered.

Christopher

Hi, actually it is a mix of lower temps, reduced water and reduced light. But a reduced photoperiod most probably is the main trigger. So if you imitate this indoor it might be possible to also get flowers under artificial light. However, i never tried this as my plants all are outdoors until october.

Based on my jades NOT flowering, I am led to believe low temps are a big part of the trigger.

My other photoperiodic plants (Mesembs) started flowering under lights after I started reducing the light duration [12-->9 hours]. And my temperature differential plants also started once the day/night difference was large enough (Schlumbergera and Phalaenopsis) [30C-->15C].

But nothing on my jades! Maybe mine are not old enough? Or I'm possibly missing other cultural aspect. I have even reduced watering to the point of aerial roots, so I am not sure it's that either.

Thanks for the empirical data ewwmayo, and to everyone else for the information.

Anyway, I have just started my own experiment. About 18month old C. Ovata that is currently growing well under a 6500K white LED (very bright, about 8000 lumens at current power (~70 Watts), in a much tighter area than 2 foot 4 tube t5ho fixture). Just moved under a similar 3500K LED that is on for 11 hours a day. window is a little drafty, air temp approx 55F - 75F, can be hotter when direct sun appears but not often in winter. A little colder when very windy, which does happen. Can't hurt to try.

I read -somewhere on the internet- (haha) that cuttings from mature plants can flower much quicker than juvenile plants from seed. I have no idea how most jade is cultivated commercially today though. Also don't know if that is true, but do note ben's small cutting of denathor flowering above, so maybe there is something to that.

Good luck and keep us posted if it works!

As a side note, my Crassula ovatas are all cuttings from a mature plant - at least 17 years old. Not sure for my other Crassulas.

I also heard that sometimes cuttings from mature, flowering jade plants are able to flower at very small size ... they are primed. However there also exist some jade clones that generally flower very early like "Denethor". In Japan these early blooming cultivars are called Sakura forms which means something like "Cherry flower variants" ... they have early blooming variants of standard ovata, gollum and hummels sunset ... so Sakura Kagetsu, Sakura Gollum and Sakura Sunset.

Ben! How are you..Question?

Have you ever seen or heard of our more rarer jades flower at all..? I can't get my Red Horn or my Maruba to flower no matter what I do!

Oksana, thanks for the information. Siberia to me is a bit of a mysterious place, of which I know so little.

Ben, I have to disagree about a reduced photoperiod being the main trigger to flower production. I have to say temperature. None of my indoor Jades has flowered, ever. But two of my older Jades I put outside from May to October for the first time ever this year, set buds.

Christopher

One other difference than temperature in those two situations is daylight brightness. Could be a factor as well.

A factor, yes. I was talking the MAIN factor.

Christopher

That's interesting, Mike. Laurent might know about the Red Horn Tree.

Mike, i never saw pictures of a flowering Red Horn Tree. However this cultivar is quite young so maybe there are no really old individuals. In contrast i once found some pics of flowering Marubas ... they flowered white/pink.

Christopher, maybe you are right and there is not one main trigger but always a combination of necessary environmental cues (like light and temp combined). I think that cold temperatures alone are not sufficient.

I've had Jades bloom both indoors and out.
But, certainly, the Jades that spend the Summer outdoors and experience a bit of chill before coming inside put out the better/more prolific blooms.

Josh

Yes, I can agree with that, Ben.

Christopher