Bumping....Baby J and Little Napoleon's parents need some help. :-)

Can you please post a drawing that shows the whole floor plan. Seeing those rooms surrounding the kitchen is helpful. Being new construction, you might as well double check the whole floor plan flows well.

My first concern is with the isle widths in kitchen being a little on the tight side. Especially as those bar stools are pulled out with bodies sitting in them,

Thanks, rebunky. :-)

Here's our floor plan for reference (slightly different kitchen layout in this version):

It looks like all traffic from the left side of the house--bedrooms, guest bath, office, mudroom, garage-- has to funnel through that 4 foot opening in the kitchen? I have a 3 and 6 year old and they are back and forth from the living room to their bedroom all day long. In this layout a kiddo is either running past the stove or running past a fridge or dishwasher that (in my house) is often in use. I'd try to resolve that traffic pattern first.

If you'd like help with the overall traffic flow from the left side to the common living space, could you post just that area? I can't make out dimensions in the whole house plan you posted. Thanks!

benjesbride -- It's nice to hear the perspective of someone with kids a few years older than ours. The traffic flow through the kitchen is one downside of our floorplan, but there are other benefits to this plan in terms of orientation on the lot, views, etc. I'd love to hear any ideas for improving this without radically changing the plan.

Hopefully this will be a little easier to read. I don't have a version with dimensions handy, but the background grid is 1' square.

Do you really feel comfortable being that far from your babies across the house? I know they're not little forever, but I like my littles close. Stomach flu swept through within the past year or so and I was so glad our door was right across the hall. I had no warning that they were getting sick. I don't know that the subtleties (eta: over a baby monitor) of a weird sounding cough would have alerted me at 2am to quickly jump up and help one turn on her side to vomit. This is a big deal to me. YMMV.

Agreed, BB. And there are many good reasons for sleeping with rooms closer together when they're older, too. Ask me how I know. The appeal of split bedrooms is lost on me.

Oh I am so glad to see you getting some great advice! I like that idea by funky to flip the dining and kitchen. Agree too about the bedroom situation as well for both those age groups!

If you haven't posted on the building a home forum, you might try there too. I've seen a lot of split bedroom, angled garage floor plans worked out over there.

I don't have any bright ideas. As I look at the detail of the plan, I'm not really a fan overall.

I also like Funky's idea of swapping the kitchen and dining room because it makes the kitchen convenient for entertaining on the deck. Do you grill? And when they are a bit older, you could be in the kitchen and see your kids playing in the backyard.

Thanks for all of your comments!

Swapping the kitchen and dining room is not an option we're willing to consider, so I'd like to focus on making the kitchen work as well as possible in its current location. On the topic of aisle widths, I agree that it's a little tight right now. I spoke with our builder and we're going to add an extra foot of width to the kitchen. That will allow wider aisles between the cooktop wall, island, and pantry wall. We may also shorten the island to allow a wider aisle in front of the clean-up sink. I've been thinking that 4' is an ideal aisle width ... does that sound about right?

Our dishwasher is only open ~15 minutes per day max and there's an alternate route through the kitchen, so I guess I'm not too worried about having people walk through that space.

Our kids' bedrooms are directly across the hall from our master bedroom right now and it is a wonderful arrangement for small kids. We're planning to be in the new house for about 20 years, and it's possible our kids may live at home through college (we both did). The split bedroom arrangement is a choice we've made knowing that it will be inconvenient for a few years, but provide some desired separation down the road. I definitely see arguments both ways ... I've been on the fence on this one but DH is determined to go with the split bedroom arrangement. :-)

I think a 4'x7,5' (including counter o/h) island may work for you. Also, having an angled wall on the top left corner of the pantry and moving the DW to the other side of the sink may help ease traffic on the bottom aisle.

I believe there'll be more visits to the fridge from the FR and DR than the mudroom, so moving the fridge to the DR end of the range counter may be considered. You can then move the ovens next to the freezer. If you move both the fridge and the freezer to the range wall, I think it would be safer to have a tall cab b/w the wall and the ovens.

Something like this.

Sena -- Good points about the fridge and oven locations. We actually had the corner of the pantry clipped at one point just as you suggested ... might need to put that back in.

OK, let's start with the basics.

Note: This will be a multi-cook Kitchen

Seating...

• Linear space (the amount of space you need for each seat)
  24" minimum; if you plan to eat all meals at the island, then I recommend more like 30"
• Overhang - clear knee/leg space - after accounting for decorative doors/panels on the back of the island cabinets
  -- Counter-height: minimum of 15"; again, if you plan to eat most meals there, I would go for more like 18"
• Corner seats - you cannot have two seats sharing a corner b/c they each need knee/leg space

So, with seating as you show and the 18" cabinet you show, your island needs to be at least:

• Width/Length: 8'10.5"
  -- 15" overhang for the seats on the short side + (3 seats * 24") + 18" cabinet + 1.5" counter overhang past the 18" cabinet = 106.5" = 8'10.5"
  -- For an 18" overhang, add 3" = 109.5" = 9'1.5"
• Depth: 2 seats * 24" = 48" = 4'
• As it stands, your island can only seat 4 people comfortably. Since you said that's your minimum, then you should be OK - please don't try to cram 5th seat in there!

Why do you insist on eating all meals at the island? Island seating is really for short visits, snacks, quick meals - it's not particularly comfortable for long-term seating. It's also not really conducive to family bonding. When I think of island seating, I think of a diner counter seating - even with a couple of seats around the corner.

Counter-height seating is also not the safest for young children...

I strongly recommend you consider using your DR for meals and keep the island for visits and quick snacks/meals.

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Aisles...

Right now, your aisles are rather narrow. Recommendations:

• One-person Kitchen: minimum of 42"
• Two-person Kitchen: minimum of 48"

Aisles are measured from the item on each side of the aisle that sticks out the farthest: counter edge (most common), appliance handle, cabinet knob (for tall cabinets with no counter), and walls.

Assuming your aisles are measured counter edge-to-counter edge:

• The island/range wall aisle is 5" too narrow at 43". It should be at least 48".
  -- If, however, you are measuring cabinet-to-cabinet, the aisle is 8" too narrow b/c counter overhangs are around 1.5". Add the 1.5" from both sides, and that's 3" off the aisle.
• The island/sink wall aisle is not 40", it's probably more like 38" when counting the DW handle. (I'll address the refrigerator issues later.) So, this aisle is 8 to 10" too narrow - and this could be an issue b/c it's going to be one of the busiest aisles in the Kitchen - it leads to/from the Bedrooms and the public rooms (FR, Kitchen, DR, etc.)
  -- If you're measuring cabinet-to-cabinet, then you need another 1.5"
• The island/pantry aisle is also too narrow. It's only 41" and the minimum recommended aisle width when little or no traffic passes behind diners is 44" (to walk past). You have less than that. On a busy aisle like that, 48" is the minimum. Yes, you have that 18" cabinet on the end, but in reality the person sitting at the last seat will be sticking into the aisle b/w the pantry and island. So, you need another 7" on that aisle.
• The island/angled wall aisle is only 39" - need I say more? (You need another 9" on that aisle).

Regarding that "alternate route through the kitchen" comment - you should be discouraging people from using the aisle b/w the cooktop and island, not encouraging it!

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Refrigerator...

There are two issues with the location of the refrigerator/freezer:

• The doors will not open fully on the wall side. With the exception of true built-in refrigerators, the doors of refrigerators need to stick out past adjacent walls/cabinets/counters so they can be opened fully. When placing a refrigerator/freezer near a wall or other item that is deeper than the refrigerator's carcass/box, you need 6" to 12" b/w the refrigerator and the item (in this case the wall). This is usually accomplished by placing a 9" or 12" wide tall cabinet b/w the wall and the refrigerator/freezer. This cabinet is only 25" deep (24" cabinet box + 1" for door).
• The second issue is the general location. As it stands, traffic to/from the refrigerator and FR, DR, or some island seats will go right through the main work aisle of the Kitchen - the aisle that should be the most protected against traffic!
  -- Move the refrigerator to the angled wall - it's then located so it's easily accessed from the outside (FR, DR) and the Prep & Cooking Zones (the two work zones you use the refrigerator the most from).
• Note: I would only move the refrigerator, not the freezer (it looks like they're an all-refrigerator/all-freezer pair - are they?) Why? Because I would not want the oven(s) to be in the busy doorway b/w the bedrooms and the rest of the house. I would put in a 9" cabinet, then the freezer, then the ovens. The ovens are still in a busy aisle, but at least they won't be in the doorway where someone running through the door might unsuspectingly run into an open oven door.

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Trash pullout...

This belongs in the Prep Zone. Far more trash & recyclables are generated while prepping and cooking than cleaning up - and for a longer period of time. I would put it on the other end of the island from the sink so it's accessible from the Primary Prep Zone (island), Secondary Prep Zone (next to the cleanup sink), and the Cleanup Zone.

If you're thinking the Secondary Prep Zone will be b/w the cooktop and oven (or refrigerator), I don't think that will work b/c there's no water on that run. Yes, it's in the island, but that's the Primary Prep Zone and where someone else will already be working.

If everyone "plays well together", you might be able to share the prep sink, but I doubt that will be the case as your children grow up.

So, how open are you to starting over from scratch with the Kitchen? I see you already said no to moving it...why? You did not give a reason.

Ooohhh! So glad Beuhl saw this redfox!

Yes is there a reason you don't like the kitchen to dining room flip?

Wow -- thanks for all the good input, buehl!

I think I mentioned this in a previous post, but we're adding 1' to the kitchen width, partly to increase aisle widths (though the change was really driven by the need to move a bearing wall in another part of the house).

I am definitely open to re-working the kitchen from scratch in its current location. In fact, last night, I sketched out an idea that would move the pantry to where the fridge/freezer are and put an L-shaped banquette in its place. In that idea, I added a peninsula up by the dining room and it looks like about a 4' x 4' island will fit with 48" aisles on each side. I'd like to develop that idea a little further to see if it improves the flow/function of the kitchen area.

Regarding our desire for family dining at the island...

We've had a counter-height table located right next to our kitchen island for years and I really don't see how that's any better for family meals than sitting directly at the island. My in-laws built a house a few years ago with an island that seats 4 comfortably. We visit often and we almost always end up squeezing all 6 people (4 adults, 2 kids) in to eat at the island instead of sitting at the larger dining table. I guess it's just a lifestyle quirk ... maybe something to do with the Italian blood and everyone wanting to be IN the kitchen all the time. That said, we don't mind having a separate nook but thought it would be more efficient to combine the nook table with the island and have a nice large workspace to boot.

We have several reasons for keeping the kitchen where it is, including:

-- We both prefer a front kitchen with a window looking out toward the front porch / driveway. We have a decent view in that direction and that's where the kids will play most of the time. We're building on mountain acreage and the land in front of the house is flat-ish while the land behind the house is more steep.

-- I want to keep the kitchen away from south-facing walls. (The front wall of the house faces north-ish). My current kitchen is on a south wall and even with air conditioning, it can be miserably hot in the afternoons when I do most of my cooking. We will not have air conditioning in the new house (it's rarely needed where we're building). I can always add heat but will be limited in my ability to cool the space, and kitchens tend to generate a lot of heat when in use.

-- We have a walkout basement and will likely build a guest suite directly under the dining room. We have guests pretty often. I don't want to wake them with kitchen traffic directly overhead early in the morning and I especially don't want kitchen water/drain lines running through the guest suite walls/ceiling. Insulation only goes so far...

-- Our best views are to the south and we're designing the dining/family room with walls of windows to take advantage of those views. The dining room will have a sunroom vibe (screen porch vibe with the windows open in summer). Moving the kitchen into that space would limit our views in that direction.

-- We want to keep the kitchen close to the mud room / garage entry so that we have a short walk to unload groceries, etc.

Do you think the banquette idea has merit?

I'm curious why you chose an angled garage type of floor plan if you have acreage. Does your site dictate it? I really like our front facing kitchen, so I totally understand that choice, but if the house was a more traditional configuration--if you could straighten out that left wing-- you could probably create a hallway between the kitchen and the bedroom wall so all traffic doesn't have to flow through the kitchen.

Disclosure: I really really dislike angled plans and anything other than 90 degree angles in floorplans usually drives me crazy, so that's my bias.

ETA: I looked at your floor plan one more time and noticed that your family room focal wall is the same wall the head of you master bed will go. If you plan on having a TV on that wall in the family room, please be forewarned about sound transmission though the wall to your bedroom. Our family room TV shares a wall with our "office" and since my husband works from home it can be a problem. We have an apple tv and use the tv to listen to audio books and music in addition to television thoughout the day, so my husband has taken to wearing noise canceling headphones because of the TV sound in that office.

RedFoxCo - thanks for the explanation! I understand your reasoning and cannot fault it.

One final comment - some people don't like a Kitchen that looks out onto the front porch or front entry b/c visitors can see dirty dishes/messy Kitchen through the window, especially when the cleanup sink is in front of the window facing the porch/entry - I'm just mentioning it in case no one else has mentioned it to you. As long as you're OK with that, then no problem.

benjesbride -- Yes, the terrain on our lot is dictating the angled garage arrangement. Without writing a novel about why, I'll just say that it's our best option for not having the garage doors face north (BAD idea in our area) and not having the main areas of the house face the one undesirable view. We're actually quite fond of angles, but I get that not everyone feels that way. :-)

Good thoughts on the TV wall / master bedroom arrangement. We've been discussing noise insulation in that wall ... maybe even going with a 2x6 wall to allow for extra insulation. By the time the kids are old enough to stay up late watching TV, we'll have a rec room finished in the basement for them to hang out in.

One of the reasons people often suggest no angles is that angles can add quite a bit to the cost of building. But, if you like them, they're in your budget, and, as you mentioned, lot constraints force it, they're fine as long as they don't force a dysfunctional layout - but controlling where the angles are can fix function.

buehl, benjesbride, and others --

Just wanted to say that I find it really helpful to be challenged on our design choices. Explaining *why* forces me to organize my thoughts and think through what's really important. :-)