I do not like the peninsula; it is too shallow to be functional. The cabinets above it, next to the fridge, would be hard to access as well. I think it would be better if your fridge ended the run. That would move the fridge down a bit and give you bigger wall cabinets between the fridge and sink where they would be most useful. Also, you need to allow 39" for the fridge cabinet if you are planning panels on both sides.

Re: symmetry... Yes, it would bother me too about the different size gaps on either side of the hood. But I don't like a hood on a wall by itself without cabinets on either side, plus you have to figure out where to put the backsplash if that is the case. I also don't like different width wall cabinet doors next to each other, which you have as a result of the 27" cab, 30" cab, and 24" corner cab. Even though I do love easy reach corner cabinets, perhaps a blind cabinet option would solve the problem of the gap next to hood as well as the oddly sized wall cabinets.

dcward89 -- The dishwasher will not be raised; that's a software glitch. As for the corner cabinets to the left the refrigerator, we were planning on having glass fronts on those display cabinets for items used infrequently, but we've nixed the idea of glass and will be keeping those cabinets white to be consistent with the rest of the kitchen. I agree that they will be difficult to access.

emilyam819 -- I hear what you're saying functionally. Aesthetically, do you think the refrigerator ending the run will look odd? That end of the kitchen flows right into the hearth room (which is a step down). I will look into the possibility of making the upper cabinets consistent widths.

Thank you both!

What are the overall dimensions of the room? I'm just seeing the length of the back wall.

it it completely open to the dining room or do you have short walls on the sides?

live in home first. Kitchen looks too large. I'd want a mudroom/maybe laundry /some extra storage near garage entry. The issues of actually living here haven't presented themselves yet. Should be an exciting move. If the kitchen is okay, just leave it be and use it for a while-6 months minimum.

benjesbride -- The kitchen is open to the dining room from the refrigerator to a little less than two feet past the right side of the island.

The dining room is 147.5" wide.

The kitchen is 145.5" deep, and the dining room is 122" deep. Together, the open space is 267.5" deep.

I hope that helps. Thank you!

I don't think it will look odd to end the run with the fridge. It is done all the time. You can put a decorative door panel on the side instead of the flat piece if you are concerned about the look from the hearth room. I think the fridge at the end would be less obtrusive than the peninsula.

herbflavor -- Living with the kitchen for a while isn't an option for us, unfortunately. The house was a foreclosure, in which the former homeowners ripped out their nice new kitchen and put in old broken cabinets with countertops unattached. We have demoed the kitchen, replaced tile floors with hardwood, and now need to install cabinets.

There is a finished laundry room in the basement, and the layout isn't really conducive for putting in a mud room. I appreciate the suggestions though.

You may not have sufficient space for an island. I have 38 in aisle in my kitchen and that was not my best decision.

I'd consider closing off part of the dining room and putting the fridge there between the kitchen and dining room. You could put an eating peninsula between kitchen and hearth room. It would just be a bar height counter from the hearth side.

benjesbride -- There was a full wall between the dining room and kitchen that we removed because we wanted a more open concept space for entertaining. It would be pretty devastating for us not to have an island, though it doesn't necessarily need to be as large as the one pictured. We've thought about the eating peninsula, which I like as additional seating but not in lieu of an island.

With the way we have the kitchen pictured now, there is 40" between the window wall cabinet countertops and the island countertop, a 12" overhang for stools in the island, and a 42" walkway behind the island (before you hit the dining room space).

Perimeter cabinets are 25.5" deep. 42" aisles are considered minimum, I think, but I think most folks aim for 48". Islands are 41" deep (25.5" cabinet side + 1/2 inch cover panel + 15" overhang.)

I think you're cutting it all really close. Can you sketch out the kitchen/dining with dimensions including those wing walls between kitchen and dining? Can those go or are they structural?

In other news... Did you watch this old house last season? They renovated s garrison colonial. You might check it out. They added an amazing front porch to hide the garrison.

Agree the 40" aisle along the full 8 1/2 feet of island is too tight. That's going to be your primary working area including passage between the fridge and range. You'd want that up to at least 44" if you are slim people and a little larger if, well, you aren't slim. One way to help: I think you should do a reduced depth 20" deep base cabinet for the island plus a 14" overhang for the seating (15" is "standard", 12" is too small, 14" will be acceptable).

I would remove the 12" cabinets beside the DW, move the fridge over, and put a tall pantry (or a framed reach-in pantry) between the fridge and hearth room, to make up for lost cabinet space. 12" wide cabinets don't have much interior room--the base would be good
for sheet pans, but it's not located in the cooking/baking area. The infrequently used items that would have been stored in the awkward cabinet at the end can be stored in the pantry. Pantry ingredients and refrigerated ingredients are often gathered at the same time for prepping, so a pantry beside the fridge would be convenient.

Without the 'peninsula' you could add another base cab to the island, for more serving area, provided that you can find your counter top material in that length. In that case you might consider putting the MW in the end cab, so that it's easier to take things from the fridge to the MW without getting too far into the clean-up or prep zones.

I'd probably also leave out the cabinets beside the range hood, if that's the style of hood you'll be using, but in this pic from barista9, the narrow cabs look OK butted up to the hood--maybe that would help disguise the difference:

One pantry thread.

Good luck!

Also agree with taking with omitting the peninsula and putting in a full height pantry/utility cabinet between the hearth room/fridge. I'd also remove the 12" cabinets on both sides of the range unless you really want them for spice/oil storage near the range. Even then I think you'll find the upper shelves of a 12" wide wall cabinet don't get much use.

A 40" aisle from perimeter counter edge to island counter edge? Ouch! The minimum recommendation for a single worker kitchen is 42", and 48" for a multi-worker kitchen And some of us prefer wider to make it easier for multiple workers to move around. Mine are 62". You are making your kitchen a tight single worker kitchen. Is that what you want? You may squeeze by with it now but once you have kids running around and wanting to learn to help in the kitchen....yikes!

And a walkway behind seating should be a minimum of 48". But isn't that wall behind the island seating gone? Maybe I'm not understanding.

Are the open walls roughly how I've pictured them below (erased the lines between rooms to simulate the openings)? How long is the short wall I have circled? Do I have the dimensions on the right walls?

I'd talk to a realtor about other priorities. I would raise the 'hearth room' floor. (Is there a fireplace there?) I'd value a family entry (and laundry above the basement level) more than a huge kitchen with no family dining table. Perhaps you plan to have family dining in the DR?

I'm thinking about best use of space (and resale) on a house suited, not for just a couple who entertain a lot, but with bedrooms enough for a family with kids.

Wow, you all do not disappoint when it comes to valuable feedback -- thank you!

The pantry alternative to the peninsula is a great idea, mama goose_gw zn6OH and Stan Z, particularly now that you've eased my fears about having an abrupt end to the cabinet run. Below is my quick attempt to confirm visually that I've captured what you're thinking. Did I get it right?

That solves the peninsula issue but leaves the island as the lingering (and heartburn-inducing) problem. Stan Z, I like your idea of using 20" base cabinets for the island to buy us more room, but we are using RTA cabinets that don't come in non-standard depths. We are small people (I'm 5'1" and petite), but I don't want to design a kitchen that might not work for someone else in the future (though we plan to be in the house 10+ years).

benjesbride -- We've removed as many walls as we can, so unfortunately, there's no way to get more space through demo. Below is a rough drawing that I hope is helpful:

I included in the drawing recommended minimums (which I knew about previously but was trying to cheat in order to fit everything I want): 42" aisle between the cabinets and island and 14" island overhang for bar stools. The trouble is...that leaves only 38.5" of walkway space behind the stools. Technically there is more walkway space since the kitchen is open to the dining room, but if we want our dining room to be functional, I suppose it can't be a walkway.

Any suggestions to fit the island and make the kitchen functional?

chisue -- Great questions/considerations. There is a huge wood-burning all-brick fireplace along the entire left-most wall of the hearth room. We had previously thought about raising the floor but realized it would be a costly undertaking considering raising the huge glass doors to the deck, removing brick and/or siding to do it, raising the garage door, dealing with the fireplace elevation, replacing hardwood, etc. We didn't think the ROI would be significant enough to justify it.

I hear what you're saying (and what herbflavor was saying) regarding a mud room and/or laundry room, and I'll admit it's difficult to envision everything we will want once we have kids. I just can't figure out how we would incorporate a mud room unless we used up part of the hearth room (which I assume is why you're asking about a fireplace) and if we did that, how would we not block access to the deck. The deck is more than 750 sq. ft., so we plan on getting lots of good use out of it.

look at your square footage between kitchen and dining room.....other spaces can be carved out of what you have but more planning is required. Still the problem is the fact you have not lived in this home.

I have a 12" pantry pull-out adjacent to my fridge and I would have preferred a 12" side pantry, but we have a wall. By eliminating the 30" wide pantry, you'll be able to put some cabinetry back between the DW and fridge so you're not placing two appliances together. You might go 15" deep on a side pantry. It's also nicer to view cabinet doors than a fridge side panel from the hearth room.

Imagine this cabinet with doors. There's lots of examples on Houzz that I don't have time to search for.

Victoria Residence · More Info

I agree that you do not need a 30" wide pantry. A thin pantry with one of the pullout units pictured above is just as functional.

The island measurement you need to worry about is the distance from corner of island to corner of garage wall and dining room, not the distance from island to virtual wall. Rounding the counter overhang edges might be a good way to buy a couple of inches.

I am the self-selected forum champion for Back Halls. LOL

Is the garage on the same level as the hearth room? Could you push it out farther at the front or move it to the left and get some 'back hall' where it's attached to the house? Where will you wash the dog, dump mop buckets, or leave or clean dirty boots without a 'back hall' with slop sink? (Maybe you live in a milder climate than I do.)

You need 'aisle' more than some fussy pull-out pantry on the long wall, especially if you plan stools at the island. Allow for 'push back' space. One foot overhang isn't much.

Our granite has 'lopped off' corners wherever there is an angle. I think it's prevented bruises.

A pull-out pantry shelf has only about 9" of usable space. Four years ago, the Rev-a-Shelf glides ran about $1000. A 30" pantry would require pull-out drawers, also very expensive as Blum drawer glides were about $50 a pair last I checked. A shallow pantry with adjustable shelves is more versatile.

With our RTA cabinet brand, all pantry options are 24" deep (no 12" option) and we can select from 18", 24", and 30" widths.

What are the dimensions of the living room? How are you planning on using the living room space?

If an open great room style space with island seating is the primary goal, you might need to rethink how you'll use the living room.

KLJ - exactly which wall is the plumbing stack in? Red, Blue or Yellow?

Your new cabinet plan is what I was suggesting, but I notice that your corner susan is only 33". I don't have one, but I recall the pros recommending a 36" super susan over the 33" size. You might consider making the trash pull-out 15" rather than 18", in favor of the larger corner susan. That would mean the cabinet to the right of the range would be 3" smaller, though, unless your cabinet supplier offers an asymmetrical corner susan. Can the 58.75" opening be made narrower to accommodate a wider cabinet?

One discussion--33" vs 36" corner susan.

Also, if the DW is against the fridge, you'll need an end panel to support the counter, and panels for the fridge, which will add up to at least 2.25"-3", so you might not have room for the 30" pantry.

I had the impression that the kitchen was open to the DR, with walking space behind the island, but the opening is 147.5" minus the closet, correct? 25" for the cabinets on the range wall + 42" walkway + 96" island adds up to 163". The island overlaps the left side DR wall by 15.5" already, so my suggestion to add to the length of the island won't work. You might even consider making the island only 6' to avoid that pinch point. What about a cart that could be kept against the bottom wall, and pulled against the island when you need more serving space. It could have the same stone as the island, for contintuity.

I hope I haven't counted wrong ;). 1 square = 6" (Click to enlarge.)

If you don't have enough room for the 30" pantry, and the 24" is the next option offered, you could make up the difference with something like this on the hearth room side of the pantry cab:

benjesbride -- The plumbing stack is the line you marked in red. We will be using the living room space for couches, TV, etc. We don't have any option to put the kitchen there. Our current kitchen already has plumbing, gas, and electrical, which we won't be moving.

wilson853 -- That's a good idea, but won't a 12" deep pantry next to 24" deep appliances and cabinets look odd? It seems to me that we'd be better off with a 24" deep pantry and drawers (albeit more expensive).

mama goose_gw zn6OH -- Thanks for the suggestions. We need double trash cans for trash and recycling, so 15" won't work; it needs to be 18" or 21" wide. We can't make the opening any narrower. We thought about making the island narrower than 96", but keeping it at 96" gives us room for more 30" drawers, which we haven't been able to incorporate much into the rest of the kitchen.

I agree that would look odd. I was describing the pantry door facing facing the hearth room, in lieu of a pullout.

Below is an updated design with:

• Narrower, single door pantry
• Larger cabinet between refrigerator and dishwasher (allowing us to go from shelves to drawers)
• Addition of 15" upper next to the refrigerator
• Proposed solution to the inconsistently sized upper cabinets

We thought long and hard about having island cabinets custom built 20" deep (Stan Z's suggestion) but found that our convection microwave--which we already ordered--is nearly 23" deep, so it wouldn't fit in a 20" deep island. Unless perhaps we put the microwave to the right of the sink by shrinking the cutlery drawer to 18" and resizing the current 3-drawer 30" to a 36" with microwave + drawer. What do you think? Maybe that could solve all of our island woes. Thoughts?

Do you recommend any further changes?

Thank you!

Love it! Especially the equally sized uppers :) Just a few things that come to mind...

• Will you store pots in the 30" drawers on the perimeter or island? If island, you can reduce the cabinet on the perimeter to make room for a 36" super Suzan. Right of stove would have to be 12" but that's still good for oven utensils, or if a standard base, for trays.
• Check drawer heights for drawer cabinets next to each other, for ex, the drawer under microwave next to the bottom drawers of the cabinets on either side. If the bottom drawers are not all the same height, I'm not sure if that would bother you.
• Did you check the distance from corner of island to nearest wall?

The reason I asked about the living room... I was wondering if it's big enough for living/dining. Then perhaps the kitchen could be bigger and the hearth room could expand to the width of the garage.

emilyam819:

• We are planning to put pots on the perimeter (and keep the island for more serveware).
• If we move the microwave to the perimeter instead of the island, we may end making the island drawers all the same to your point.
• We're not at the house right now, so I'll have to get that measurement. I believe it's at least 44".

benjesbride -- Good thought, but the living room isn't large enough to accommodate couches and a dining room table. I think if we go with 20" deep island cabinets, then we'll meet almost all of the requirements (25.5" perimeter cabinets, 42" aisle, 33.5" island including countertop and 12" overhang, and 44" walkway). I know people appear to be set on a 14" overhang, but from all of the threads I've read on GardenWeb, lots of people have had to settle for the 12" overhang and it doesn't seem like a deal breaker to me. As much as I want to have a kitchen that the NKBA would give an A+, that's not our reality so we're doing our best to work with what we have.

If you forgo the fourth seat, which is a tight squeeze any way, you could put the MW on the end of the island, facing the hearth room, and have your custom 20" deep drawers:

The area marked cookbooks could be an open shelf, or a 12" deep upper cabinet could be used, as you were planning for the peninsula.

*ETA: Have you gotten a bid to move the plumbing stack? Depending on whether it's just a vent or all of it it could be affordable to expensive, of course. But either way it would be good to know. If that closet could be moved that could improve the whole kitchen/dining.*

How far does the closet protrude into the dining space?

Have you marked out where your dining table will go? You may have already thought through it, but it looks like if you even put a 3x5 table in the dining room you may not have the minimum 36" for people to slide behind seated diners. I hate it when people have to move to let one person get away from the table.

This issue may not bother you. It's a big deal for me. When we gutted this house and put it back together the minimum size dining room I required was 9x12; I wanted a 3x6 table with adequate space around it. My house is only 1200 square feet. The house we downsized from was 2200 square feet, but the dining room was smaller with a protruding closet; it's one of the things I was happiest to bid farewell in that house.

ETA: I see that you've left a 44" clear floor space on the kitchen side, so if you turn the dining room table perpendicular to the island there will be enough walk around space :-)

kleighj, here's another idea for the "island woes". You could put in silverware/placemat drawers at the left end of the island, directly across from the dishwasher (also reducing cabinet width there from 30" to 24"). Shortening the island by 6"would help reduce the chokepoint between the hearth room and dining room. I think that would be great for unloading the dishwasher. Imagine having the dishwasher open and the silverware drawer open at the same time and being able to move items from the dishwasher to the drawer with just a few steps. Plus it would be easy for kids or visitors to get silverware and placemats out of the drawers and set the table without impeding kitchen workflow. Its still close enough that the cook can access when needed.

That would leave the microwave where you want it on the island and leave a full unit of 30" drawers next to the range for pots/pans. The 24" cutlery drawers labeled on your plan would stay and be used for knives and cooking utensils. You could even do two shallow drawers for knives plus utensils above one deep drawer if you don't think you need 4 shallow drawers here. I think having knives and silverware separated helps keep kids safe -- kids always need silverware and placemats but have no reason to be anywhere near the knife drawer.

The only downside is that there is now some separation between the silverware and plates/glasses which I'm assuming would go in the uppers.

On the right of the range I would switch the 15" drawers to 15" vertical of storage (e.g. cookie sheets).

Finally not sure if you saw this before but if at all possible you should try to go with a 36/33 corner unit if your cabinet company offers that asymmetric configuration. You'll really appreciate that over the 33/33.

I think you will have a great layout.

One final thing... I'm sure it would be realized later, but when you're calculating the depth of an island there's often an added 1/2 inch for a panel on the backside of the base cabinet.