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plantcrazed101

Looking for Austin, TX Gritty Mixers and 511'ers

plantcrazed101
8 years ago

Hi y'all,


So I'd really like to get the ingredients together to give gritty mix and 511 a proper try, but I live in a very small apartment with almost no floor space, I can't really fit the gargantuan bales of supplies. I'm wondering if there is anyone around Austin that does the gritty mix and 511? I'd be happy to help mix, or pay for some, or whatever, I'd just really like to try out the mixes without having to store them on my living room floor since I have no other space.


I know it's a long shot, but I'd figured I'd ask anyway :)

Comments (20)

  • jane__ny
    8 years ago

    Plantcrazed, it would be difficult using both those mixes indoors.

    My opinion.

    How big are your plants? Can they go outside in the summer?

    I have had better success using some potting soil (to hold moisture), wood chips and perlite. This combination doesn't drain as quickly as 5.1.1. or gritty making watering indoors easier.

    If a small pot like bonsai, they could do well in gritty because you can carry your plants to the sink and let it drain.

    Watering a larger plant indoors with 5.1.1. or gritty can become a challenge.

    I have always had good results using about 1/3 potting mix (any type), 1/3 small wood chips and 1/3 perlite. The potting soil holds some moisture so you don't have to water constantly and keeps some water from running straight through the pot.

    Watering indoor plants in containers takes some adjustments. I have found 5.1.1. and gritty almost impossible to use on large plants indoors unless you have your plants on cement or tile where they can drain out. However, over time the bark will begin to hold more moisture which keeps the water from running right out of the pot.But, that takes time for the bark to break down enough to start to hold water. Potting mix is an easier alternative.

    I'm sure the people here will have their opinions on my suggestions, but at least it will give you an idea of an option which works well and makes life easier growing plants indoors. I've been using that combination for many years with great success.

    Jane


  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    Hey, PC - Jane is very big on making panoramic statements that she can't and won't support, instead choosing to note that she has a 'right' to her opinions. Saying the 5:1:1 mix and gritty mix are difficult to use indoors in the face of testimony by thousands of growers who actually DO have experience using these mixes indoors is ludicrous - a untruth designed to intentionally mislead, which has become the basis for virtually all of Jane's offerings on this forum. When this is pointed out, she starts mumbling about everyone else being nasty and rude and talking in circles.

    For example, "I have had better success using some potting soil (to hold moisture), wood chips and perlite. This combination doesn't drain as quickly as 5.1.1. or gritty making watering indoors easier." [sic]The first question that pops into my mind is, "How does a soil that drains quickly (has better aeration) make watering more difficult? If Jane is supposing the reason is that when using soils that drain quickly you get more water in the collection saucer (she uses this distortion regularly, btw), it would beg the question, "Doesn't the amount of water in the collection saucer or the amount that exits the drain depend on how much the grower supplies the planting? How does a free-draining soil contribute to how much water ends up in the collection saucer? 15-20% of the total volume of water you furnish at any one watering session is a good target amount because that's about how much it takes to flush accumulating salts from the soil on a regular basis. The medium doesn't determine how much water passes through the soil, the grower does. If Jane has a problem with this aspect of the faster draining soils that have superior aeration, she should examine her actions for error - soils don't make errors that in the end result in water on the floor.

    Now, I can assure you that you can water to beyond saturation when using the 5:1:1 mix and gritty mix with little to no concern your soil will remain saturated long enough to affect root function and/or root health. Jane cannot, in good faith, make that claim about media that has a significantly higher % of fine material. The fact is, perched water limits root function because it limits oxygen availability, and oxygen is ESSENTIAL to normal growth and root function.

    So, suggesting you use a medium that can't offer what media having better aeration/drainage CAN offer, w/o telling you what the trade offs are, is intentionally misleading at best.

    "If a small pot like bonsai, they could do well in gritty because you can carry your plants to the sink and let it drain." [sic] I think I get it. The gritty mix works well, but only for plants you carry to the sink to water - and no others. Ponder that for 1 second to see the disconnect in the reasoning process.

    Growers with even a rudimentary knowledge of how container soils work understand that "wood chips" in a volume representing 1/3 of the o/a volume of the medium are going to have a LOT of issues serious enough to wreck a person's entire growing season. "Wood chips" (sapwood or heartwood from either hardwood or softwood species) that provide up to or more than 1/3 of a mediums volume bring serious inherent issues with their use. Severe nitrogen immobilization + a high pH spike during the composting process + rapid breakdown of particles + very high root temps (easily more than 20* hotter while active composting of the bark particles occurs) ..... are ALL very good reasons to avoid wood chips in container media. I explain this over and over, but it doesn't matter to Jane that suggesting "wood chips" for container media is extremely reckless and has very significant potential to undo an unsuspecting forum member's efforts for a single planting up to an entire growing season.

    Jane desperately wants you to believe soils that hold significantly more perched water than soils that utilize a concept that ensures a much healthier ratio of water:air in the root zone are somehow better or offer an alternative that a reasonable person would consider, but that's a perfect example of a bad idea - one that won't float.

    These are truthful and legitimate concerns Jane. MANY have asked you to support the wild accusations and distortions with something that sounds like reasoning. Well?

    And Jane - what about the defiant nature of insisting on suggesting others use "wood chips" as 1/3 of their media. You've read thousands of posts about why conifer/pine bark is better, and for years you used the term "pine bark" as your "amendment" of choice. Then suddenly, after I pointed out that if you have the pine bark, perlite, and container media on hand to make the 5:1:1 mix (because the ingredients in what you were making were exactly the same as ingredients in the 5:1:1 mix) you might as well use them to make a soil that held little perched water rather than constructing a soil we can SEE is limiting because of its significant water retention and lack of aeration, you suddenly changed your "recipe" to include "wood chips" instead of pine bark. We can all see it's a change that was made on the keyboard and not in the potting shed, yet maintaining the defiance in the term is more important than seeing people get reliable information they can trust to work toward their benefit. That picture is wrong in so many ways.

    PC - send me your home addy in a Houzz message and I'll see you get enough of the 5:1:1 and gritty mix to evaluated their efficacy. Perhaps Jane will make the same offer and you can compare. Jane?

    Al

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  • rooftopbklyn (zone 7a)
    8 years ago

    Jane, really? wood chips?

    Is your memory really that short?

    I encourage any member who is interested to check out these recent threads, some are long so search for "wood chips" with your web browser. The only reason to keep repeating this recipe with wood chips is to spread misinformation and force people who she knows care about helping others to jump in and contradict her.

    This first link shows an example from yesterday, the others are recent. I'm sure there are many more these are just a few I recall. funny I can remeber these threads but Jane can't remember that those big bags of orchid BARK she explicitly and consistently recommends contain a very different thing than wood chips, which when pushed on she says "I'd never put wood in my potting mix, why would anyone do that?"

    http://forums2.gardenweb.com/discussions/3479021/bonsaijack-organic-bonsai-soil-mix-reviews-recommend

    http://forums2.gardenweb.com/discussions/3421214/ficus-losing-new-leaves-al-any-other-ideas

    http://forums2.gardenweb.com/discussions/3405902/too-much-rain

    Daniel


  • ewwmayo
    8 years ago

    Plantcrazed101 - I hope you're able to try gritty or 5:1:1! Regardless if you like the mixes or not, at least you will know. =)

    My home is not that large either, but I do have a small garage where I am able to keep a 10gal pail of grit, a 24L bag of bark, and another 10gal pail of gritty mix (along with my car). The footprint isn't so bad.

    I'm not sure what kinds/sizes of plants you are growing, but I would agree that large pots are kind of annoying to water. My two biggest pots are 17L (4.5gal), are unglazed clay, with gritty mix, and on a carpeted floor. One contains a large Schefflera and the other a large Dracena. Both are 15'+ tall and doing very well.

    I use a full watering can for each, which gives them a good flush. To remove the water from the saucer, I use a $15 AA-battery powered pump to transfer it into a plastic tub. It's fairly quick and a turkey baster is used to remove the tiny bit of water left (because I am picky like that).

    Luckily, I don't have to water very often. Here are my soil moisture measurements for the past 3 months. As shown below, I typically water weekly or biweekly (each spike). I'm very particular about logging my growing conditions/habits:

    At least this way, I don't have to spend a lot of time watering these trees.

    Here is what my generally mix looks like. I have a bit more small pieces to increase water retention slightly for those two large pots:

    As for small plants in my home, I'm growing many different types of succulents in different variations of gritty for each.

    Watering is obviously a bit more convenient for those. Frequency is around every 2 days in the summer and every 4 days in the fall. Of course, most of them are quite picky and in mixes with very low water retention (nothing close to 1:1:1 ratio).


    Hopefully I've been able to provide a somewhat objective summary of my experience with this type of mix from a 'container gardening' perspective!

  • plantcrazed101
    Original Author
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    I'd totally love to experiment with the different mixes! I love trying new things, so I'm pretty excited about trying this :)

    I'm also curious what would happen if you had a wick-watering system with 511 or gritty mix? Would the 511 help counteract issues that would be caused with sitting water (not against the roots medium, but with a wick that wicks water into the mix)? Or would wicking totally negate any benefits of gritty mix or 511? I'm trying to wrap my head around how it all works once you tamper with making it self-watering, partly to feel like I understand how potable water tables work, and partly because I can imagine my young african violets (still in plantlet baby/plant mode) that are wicked would die if I left for a two week vacation and they weren't wicked. I think I want to try a few plants strictly grown as per Al's recommendations, and a few plants where I do the complete opposite, and a few plants where I have a self-watering to mess it all up. Now I just need an acre of land to do it!! haha


    And then where to bog plants fit in to all of this? Do they need air still, or don't need air, do they need a potable water table? I need a textbook. haha



  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    8 years ago

    In my post above, I was neglectful in mentioning that another of Jane's highly favored hot button issues is using every available opportunity to advise growers they should repot "in the spring" - even if the advice is completely off topic and repotting isn't even close to being germane to the topic. At least 50 times I've patiently explained that "in the spring" is too vague to be useful or considered harmless; this, because most growers think of spring as when robins return (up north) and snowdrops/cyclamen pop their heads up, which is actually the worst time to repot all but a very few houseplants. I explain that spring covers a lot of ground, from Mar 21 (which is highly inappropriate to be repotting all but a very few houseplants, to Jun 21 (which is just about the ideal time to repot all but a few houseplants). The average forum contributor would not want to stand to be corrected repeatedly, and would figure out a way to keep their credibility intact by offering advice that can't be misinterpreted, or by qualifying the advice so it can't be viewed as overly vague and potentially damaging (to the growing experience of others). Instead, the response to someone else's efforts to clean up the mess is doubling down on the effort to increase the frequency with which the advice is offered.

    I beg forgiveness for my recent efforts to bring this pattern to everyone's attention - especially to those whose threads end up being the medium through which the alerts are funneled. I really don't care much about the personal effrontery included in her posts, as they do more damage to her than to me, but I do care very much about what ill effects intentionally misguided information has on the growing community. No matter what Jane might say, there is irrefutable evidence that a high % of container growers who find their way to this forum end up here because of the high degree of credibility all but a very few work in concert to maintain by way of their notable skillsets and their habit of sticking to what they know and can discuss in detail if pressed as to WHY they might have said something. The constant strife brought about by habitual trolling take a heavy toll on how this forum is perceived; and knowing how that sits with me, I'm pretty sure it's at least part of the reason protestations are more nearly a chorus than a solo.

    Acting to protect the growing experience of others from deliberately sown misinformation and the strife it brings doesn't have to mean anyone is 'out to get' someone."The destroyer of weeds, thistles and thorns is a benefactor,
    whether he soweth grain or not."
    ~Robert Ingersoll

    Al

  • jane__ny
    8 years ago

    Without knowing where someone lives, Spring can be different. It is Springtime now in Australia. In Florida, Springtime is early March. In NY, Springtime is usually June. I look at when a plant starts to initiate new growth. I observe the plants I grow. I do not go by strict rules.

    Orchids are repotted in Spring when they initiate new root growth. It should be done when the roots are less than an inch to prevent root damage.

    Large container plants (dirt) grown indoors would begin to initiate new growth in March due to the longer light hours. But, in NY I could not repot indoors and had to wait until the outside temps were stable. I grew large container plants.

    In Florida, I can repot in March. The container plants are initiating new growths and I want to move them to fresh media. It is easy as they live outdoors all year.

    I believe it is important to not follow strict rules. Each environment is different. Everyone has a different lifestyle and time constraints. Each climate is different. A grower needs to watch and learn how their plants grow. I think that is how a grower becomes successful. Know your plants. Observe them.

    Daniel, I apologize for using the term 'wood chips.' Being an orchid grower I always have large bags of 'bark' available to me and suggest using that in a mix for 'dirt plants.' However, I do buy large bags of 'wood chips' for potting my large container plants. I like a brand called, Timberland which is called wood mulch. Walmart sells it. I have used it with good results for many years in my large container plants. Using orchid bark can be too costly for large containers.

    Daniel, maybe I do have a 'short memory.' I apologize. When you are 66 yrs old you might find you are not as careful as when you were younger. I am not offering anything except the way I have grown my plants for many years. Again, I apologize for being a bit careless in my explanations.

    This is an open, public forum. All are welcome to offer their growing styles and I would hope I could do so. We are all growers who want to do the best we can within our growing environments. I have always learned more from experienced growers than I ever did from books. I just like to offer suggestions about what has worked for me over the years. I am not arguing against any other suggestions from growers. I am just offering what I do. We should all feel comfortable offering our growing information.

    Jane

  • rooftopbklyn (zone 7a)
    8 years ago

    I apologize to everyone.

    I took the bait and fed the troll while trying very hard to do the opposite.

    It's very obvious to me now how hard people are working to fight fire with science, which I guess is really the only way to win in this particular case. I myself benefitted from this fight, it's how I became aware that "putting a layer of rocks under your miracle grow" was not the answer to happier plants. And I really want to help preserve this place so others can learn as well, but clearly I'm not patient or skilled enough in these situations to be of much help.

    Daniel

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    8 years ago

    No, Jane. Springtime in FL isn't in early March. It begins March 21 and ends Jun 21 - every year in every FL county. Jane lives in FL and I live in MI. Jane's and my houseplants are at their lowest energy level of the annual growth cycle in March - after the lower light levels and cooler temps of winter when plants weren't as active as they will be in Jun, Jul, Aug. Jane's spring and Al's spring arrive on the same day. Jane's houseplants and Al's houseplants are both lacking any 'spare' energy in March when the plant's enthusiasm/growth rate picks up. If Jane wants to repot in March, I'm all for her having her way - don't care WHEN she repots; but the fact of the matter is, it would be easier on all but a very few of Jane's and Al's houseplants if they were repotted in June. If Jane thinks it's important to define when 'spring for repotting purposes actually IS', maybe it would be a good idea to qualify the post initially to avoid confusion/corrections and make herself look like she knows what she's talking about. There are all these positive reasons to be clear and specific, but since being vague and creating heat instead of light seems like the right thing to do in Jane's mind, she chooses that course. If talking to someone S of the equator, all confusion can be eliminated by changing 'spring' to "around the summer solstice" - easy - done deal. All the other claptrap she just used as justification makes absolutely no sense.

    I believe it is important to not follow strict rules. Where did THAT come from? If we don't follow rules, doesn't chaos follow hard in your footsteps? What if no one obeyed traffic 'rules', or 'don't feed the cobras'? The more you know, the more latitude you'll find that you have. For instance, knowing how to build a high quality medium gains a lot of forgiveness in terms of (over)watering and fertilizing. Your suggestion makes watering and fertilizing much more critical, so you MUST follow the rules to avoid the consequences.

    "In Florida, I can repot in March". The point? In MI I can repot on Sundays, in the dark, and in every month of the year. I don't, because some times are better than others when it comes to repotting. Please - if you can make the case that repotting in March is better than June (in FL OR MI), make it. If you can't, then why continue the vagary that is so misleading?

    "This is an open, public forum. All are welcome to offer their growing styles and I would hope I could do so. We are all growers who want to do the best we can within our growing environments. I have always learned more from experienced growers than I ever did from books. I just like to offer suggestions about what has worked for me over the years. I am not arguing against any other suggestions from growers. I am just offering what I do. We should all feel comfortable offering our growing information." Why are you getting so much negativity for the way you post if all you want to do is help? What makes others wrong and you right? "We should all feel comfortable offering our growing information" is Jane-speak for I want to be able to extract my pound of flesh any time I like w/o anyone criticizing me for my actions, and I want to be perceived as being helpful during the extraction - or you'll pay!

    Al


  • jane__ny
    8 years ago

    Al, Al, Al.

    What 'pound of flesh' and 'who will pay.? How ludicrous.

    My way is not your way. Okay? Lets just leave it at that.

    I would never offer a method if I had dying plants. Does that make sense? Logic, Al.

    I am offering a alternative. People have the right to try both ways. They can dismiss one method for another. Who cares? It is what people do. They should know there are choices.

    I'm not going to defend myself against your nasty rants. I don't need to.

    What I do works for me. It worked in NY and it works in Florida. My plants are healthy and most are quite old. I love them, they have traveled with me and all survived. A few orchids bit the dust as they couldn't take the temperatures here, but I knew they wouldn't make it. But my container plants are all thriving and are quite old. They love the Florida sunshine.

    Spring is when I see a plant initiate new growth. I repot when it is convenient for me during the season I know is optimum for the plant. I do not use an exact date. I explained repeatedly that I repotted in June when I lived in NY.

    In Florida, my tropical container plants initiated growth in March. I repotted in April because that was when I had time. I did not repot in March but would have if I had the materials and time to repot.

    My point had to do with climate. Despite what you say, where people live is very important. It is important for dirt plants and orchids. You don't have to agree, I don't care. I have my way of growing and you have yours.

    Please stop the personal attacks. I am not attacking you nor your growing advice. I am offering my thoughts and experience to those who might be interested. That's it.

    Jane

  • katiedolittle
    8 years ago

    Plantcrazed spend the time to find and make grittie mix it is well worth it. It may take a while to find everything but in Austin you can try feed store for garnet chicken grit pet smart for the bark check with school system where they get turface for baseball fields . You can get everything in Austin

    roger

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    8 years ago

    I didn't forget you, PC.

    Al

  • ubro
    8 years ago

    I agree with katiedolittle, Pantcrazed, find a way, any way to make the mix you won't regret it.

  • plantcrazed101
    Original Author
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    Well I certainly want to try it! I really have 2 obstacles, one is finding the ingredients, and the other, more complicated one, is finding a way to get fairly small quantities of it.

    I did find a bonsai nursery in my area, the hours conflict with my work hours, so I probably won't be able to get over there for a few weeks, but I emailed them and we'll see if they sell the different supplies...I'm crossing my fingers! :-D

    Thanks Al for remembering me! :) I saw on previous forum that you mentioned getting soil sieves from Dallas Bonsai...at the time, they had different screen sizes then they do now, and I didn't quite understand your suggestions for the ideal size, so here's what they have, which is best for 511 and which is best for gritty mix?

    They have:

    2mm

    3mm

    4.5mm (I'm assuming this and larger is too large, right? )

    and so on...

  • plantcrazed101
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    Thanks EWWMayo for the pic and experience! From the picture, it looks like the pot is sitting in water...did you have an air barrier between the pot and the water? In other words, did you have ONLY the wick in the water and the rest of the pot lifted above the water? Or was the pot sitting in water? I just want to clarify :)

  • ewwmayo
    8 years ago

    Plantcrazed - I normally don't use wicks at all, but just wanted to give you an idea of how it works with this kind of mix. In this case, I just set the pot in a saucer of water.

    You might have to do a lot of experimentation because I don't think many of us are wicking like you plan to test out.

  • jane__ny
    8 years ago

    Daniel, I hope you were not referring to me.

    "I took the bait and fed the troll while trying very hard to do the opposite."

    This is a public forum. I have as much right to post as anyone else. If you don't like what I write, you can click away.

    I will not tolerate any further abuse or name calling.

    Jane

  • TheSucculentCity
    8 years ago

    Hey, I'm in Austin as well.

    Ewing irrigation has the turface, buck moore feed has the #2 grit, and I got the reptibark at a petsmart.

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