i would think... it depends on whether they are self pollinating ...

it would also depend on how diverse the local populations are ... and i am talking for miles around ... as i think oak is wind pollinated ...

i am sure others can write you a treatise on this ... but before they do .... what exactly are you wondering about .... it might help to limit the conversation down to what you actually want to know ...

if i wanted an oak.. of a certain color.. i would go to a large tree farm ... right now.. and pick it out while it is in color ... and TAG IT ... for spring sale and planting ... it would be worth the money.. to know the trees characteristics ...

if you just want to play with growing seed... thats a different topic ...

so where do you want to go with this???

ken

It's hard to say. As far as fall color, I think your odds are better of having a tree with good color, if you pick the acorns from a tree that colors well, than they are if you collect from a tree with dismal fall color.

If self pollinated (i.e., isolated), chances are better still, but still no guarantee.

I collected acorns this fall from a Quercus alba tree with outstanding fall color that's almost as good as Scarlet Oak (but "softer" if that makes sense), but it's neighbor (another Q. alba) has crappy muddy yellow brown color and they almost certainly cross pollinate, so I won't know for a few years how the seedlings turn out.

I bet not identical even for self fertile trees. Think similar but not the exact same.

My understanding:

Consider me. I am a mix of my parent's DNA. If you take one sperm of mine it makes a boy, another a girl though. Even if I could empregnate myself, some of my kids will have my dad's eyes, some mine' some my mother's. They will all obviously be members of my family.

Your acorns might produce really similar trees. Consider how similar them redwoods in thr forests look. But there will be differences.

If you want a clone graft a cutting.

Ok, now we're talking. So, if one wants the perfect reproduction of a superior tree, one takes grafts? Is this of roots, or branches, how is the best way to reappropriate a tree to clone?

Here are two videos I made of grafting an oak:

Part 1 Waxing Scions

Part 2 Grafting

You don't need a special tool like I'm using but rather a very sharp knife (razor sharp) or a utility knife. Typically these are done as whip and tongue style grafts or a simple veneer graft.

Dax

I've been grafting oaks using just a simple bark veneer graft for years. They're easy - and I get success rates almost as good as with apples/pears... and way better than nut trees. Timing is *maybe* a little more critical... topworking seedlings in the field or nursery beds, best time is just as the rootstocks begin pushing leaves. I have done 'em later, though, with decent success.

I use a regular old grafting/budding knife, Parafilm, and a rubber band.

Lucky - do you wax them like Dax does?

Are you talking about a side-veneer graft, used whan the scion is just a little smaller than the rootstock, or a bark graft that is usually used on much larger rootstocks or like what is used to topwork old apple trees?

No, I don't wax like Dax. I just wrap graft union and scion with Parafilm, then overwrap the union with a rubber band.

But I do 99% of my grafting 'in the field', on established seedling understock.

Neither approach is necessarily better than the other... just what we do... and it seems to work for both of us.

I'm still trying to clear toronado's post from my mental vision. Those poor kids!

+oM

Awesome info, and thanks so much for the informative vids!

Yep Hair, and those Schuette's are from a naturally occurring population (as you know but others may not.) They are wild.

Dax

I should have said this...

Lucky doing field grafting - parafilm tape will hold up much-much longer than parafin wax, alone. Field grafting using wax a person should mix 50% beeswax to 50% parafin wax. You can also add dyes to the mixture as a color coding system. If a person is going to do a lot of grafts of different cultivars, this works great. Red for this cultivar, blue for another, and so on.

Wax is not necessary at all really. I just happen to like it. There's absolutely no difference in takes from wrapping with parafilm tape vs. using wax. Additionally, there are circumstances such as those scions in my video where I was grafting a witches'broom where there is no way to provide a wax product other than a wax dip. My scions were very bulky "chunks" at the top of the scion. I've tried to make a cocoon with parafilm tape in the past to cover scions of that shape & it simply does not work.

Either way, no matter what product you choose to use to keep the scion from dehydrating, you have to use something.

Dax

One more thing that I didn't write but know is much-much easier when using parafilm tape in the field or the greenhouse: before you make any of your cuts... wrap your scions first leaving a few inches exposed at the bottom end of the scion where you're going to do your cut(s). If you wait until after you've made your cuts and wrapped them with a bud strip or rubber band and try to come back to wrap with wax tape... it'll be very easy to wiggle the scion out of place at the connection point (union), thus a graft that never had a chance....

Dax

i dont know if anyone above said this ... i will try to simplify it ...

if you have a tree you want to reproduce .... you grow out some acorns from that tree.. say.. 3 to 5 years .. until they are big enough to graft ONTO ... about pencil thickness .. give or take ...

and then you go back to momma .... and take branch cutting and graft them onto the acorn trees ...

one would argue.. that since mommas dna in in the acorn tree.. then the graft should be ACCEPTED onto such ...

this avoids all the problems with scion.. the cuttings.. being rejected by the understock ....

of course.. it makes it a 5 to 10 year project .... lol ...

those above will correct me, if i went to far in simplifying ...

ken

If I sow a flat of acorns (even small ones like palustris) (30 seeds) I will usually have three or more that are of size to graft onto the following year. Of course they aren't whopping seedlings but they are near pencil thickness. The others may take one more year or two more years to catch up. It's genetic diversity... the strong and the weak.

Adding to that, what a tree is pollinated with also improves or diminishes the the seed being produced. I'll be brief but if a Quercus rubra pollinated a Quercus palustris (Red oak and Pin oak) and if another pollen parent also got into the mix such as another smaller acorn in the Red oak family - giving two types of pollen to one tree, there will be varying levels of outcome of the seed produced. It's never a perfect equation where possibly Quercus rubra being larger gave it's pollen to the smaller Quercus palustris - but it is possible the seedling produced may make a faster plant with a larger "seed parent plant."

Adding to that, the south and west side of trees get more sun and that results in a better seed being produced.

I could show you how these relationships effect pecans. It's very noticeable and I will just leave it at that.

Dax

Ken,

There's some truth to your thoughts on grafting onto a selection's own seedlings, but it's not necessarily a total solution.

We do know that many chestnuts are poorly compatible - if not incompatible with - seedling understock other than their own, or closely-related strains.

White oak species,on the other hand, are pretty uncaring about what species you graft them onto, as long as it's in their own group. - though I generally stay away from Q.stellata as an understock,as it's so very slow-growing.

Peroxidase incompatibilities may still be an issue with some red/black oaks,even when grafted onto their own seedlings. But... at the same time, I've grafted Q.coccinea, Q.nutalli, and various hybrids onto seedling Q.rubra and Q.falcata... so far, so good - but I'm only 3-4 years out on them.

I can't recall who or where, but I seem to remember reading that the Peroxidase incompatibilities are more specific to palustris and/or rubra due to the fact that almost all red oak grafting was done with those two species as rootstocks.
Europeans have been grafting Quercus coccinea 'Splendens' onto seedling coccinea for years, and I haven't heard of mass-failures of that cultivar in Europe.

It's safest to use Q.rubra as far as I'm concerned. There are reported incompatibilities with palustris... or so I've heard. I cannot say I've heard much of anything about rubra on the other hand. I'd at least feel more comfortable putting coccinea on rubra. I don't know what I'd put blackjack on quite honestly...

I think velutina may have incompatibility issues with palustris. Again I can't say for sure.

Dax