Hello, Daryl

You've received helpful feedback on your design, but your self-imposed
constraints of not wanting to change structure or move plumbing and doing minimal
electrical changes severely limit the possibilities to improve your kitchen’s functional
layout. Your options are limited to the range and fridge placement;
you could do either layout. The layout you posted last night is an
improvement over what you have now, for sure, and it will probably work just
fine for your family. However, your
kitchen would be so.much.better if you could just move the sink further away
from the door, say switch the dishwasher and sink. I don't see a pantry in your layout. Where is your primary food storage? Maybe
change one of the cabinets adjacent to the fridge to a pantry cabinet.

If this were my house, not having a landing spot by the back door would bug
me to no end. I’m assuming this is your
primary ingress/egress, but maybe it isn't. You seem to have enough space to place the dining
table to the middle of the room then it could be used to set groceries down for
example.

Don’t be in a hurry to do this. Mull
over the options and decide what truly works best for your family.

Thank you for the reply. I would do either counter or completely do deep cabinets around the fridge. So yes, storage would be by the fridge.

I thought about switching the dish and sink, but wouldn't the dish be in the way when open? Moving the sink and dish would be easy actually. Plumbing is still right there.

We use both doors for entry to the house.

Thank you for telling me that this layout would possibly work though. I have been thinking about this for months, so it hasn't been in haste. I'm just trying to make sure it'll work, and that I'm not missing anything.

Could you draw a floorplan of that entire floor. I don't understand the two living rooms with a closet in-between. It would help to see the flow of the whole house better.

I've been playing around and I don't think I can design anything better for you than Mama Goose did in her first plan for you with the door in the corner where you need to leave it.

Problems with your most recent drawing are:

Seating along the back wall of that table is going to be impossible to get into unless the table is pulled more into the doorway.

The range is too close to the table. You want your range in a more protected area. And you don't want people sitting so close behind the cook. It looks like an accident waiting to happen with both so close together.

You don't want the DW in the precious prep area, the counter between sink and range. This means that someone can't be cleaning up while someone else is prepping/cooking.

Sorry I'm just posting problems without solutions but I think Mama Goose already nailed it.

ETA: So i guess I disagree with zsmith. While your last plan is better than you have now, it's far from a good plan. If you're going to spend the time and money to improve, it's worth it to spend a bit more to get a more functional layout.

What about an old-fashioned farm kitchen? May not work...but I thought I'd offer the suggestion :)

I like that last suggestion. Would the table be in the way there? Moving the sink over there will be a plumbing issue, but it's doable if it's the only way it's going to function. The best part about that idea is having the bench/drop zone. That sounds awesome.

Here's a quick not to scale sketch of the floor. I'm at work, sorry lol

Funkycamper....maybe I could move the dish somewhere else? I just looked at the plan, not sure how that might work though?

I really really appreciate the help everyone. I wouldn't have thought of any of this. I am a researcher in everything I do, and I made a plan, and now I'm in research stage, with advice from experts. One thing I know nothing about is design lol

Hey, there funkycamper. I did not say it was a good plan, just better than what they have now. :) I agree Mama goose's first layout is far better than Daryl's layout. But given that he doesn't want to change too much plumbing and electrical and no structural, what he's proposing isn't too terrible. Take my words with a grain of salt. I abandoned the idea of remodeling my kitchen when it meant completely redoing alot of structural. I decided my current kitchen wasn't "too terrible" and it isn't. But it's far from ideal. And I agree with you, FunkyC that if he's going to spend that kind of money, then he should make the most of the remodel. Do it once and do it right. :)

Daryl, yes the DW when open would be in the way of the door. Do your kids regularly run in and out through the backdoor? If so, then that wouldn't be a good place for the DW.

I played around with a layout yesterday but didn't save it because it involved moving the sink to the wall with the big window. I have to run off to a meeting but will try to post later, Daryl, if you're interested in seeing that option.

Oh, I see Lavender Lass posted something similar to the layout I twiddled with yesterday. Yay! :)

I'm enjoying all of these options. I really really like the bench by the back entrance...going to play with that idea a bit here

I like Lavender's new plan as well. For some reason I thought there was an opening on the wall where she has put the sink/DW. I guess I read the plan wrong.

It would still be nice to see more of the floorplan for that entire floor.

Gotcha, zsmith. I mean, I get what you mean. :)

Entire floor plan is roughly sketched above in one of my messages

Oops, sorry I missed that. OK, now I get why there are two places marked as living room and why there is a closet there. Are you at all interested in finding a new place for the coat closet and then opening up your kitchen to the living room more so you will have more room for a dining table?

Yes, that I would love. Love. I've discussed it with my wife, but we were unsure where to put the closet. Also, the opening would have to include the load bearing part at the top still. I'm unsure if a support pole runs vertically there, somewhere in the closet walls...likely there is a pole or something.??

Would people be down the stairs far enough to put the closet here? I wouldn't want people to bonk their heads!

My Houzz: Vintage Farmhouse Style · More Info

I've never seen any kind of support pole in a load-bearing wall like that. The closet walls themselves are the support. And there are probably headers in each of the openings. You would need a wider header and/or support posts after the closet is removed. It is something that you would need to pursue further to ensure removal is done safely and your roof has proper support. We have done this work ourselves in smaller openings without using a structural engineer and it has been fine. However, most people would suggest using a structural engineer. And I would agree as this proposed opening is much wider than anything we've done ourselves. We have just widened an existing door to about double the width and put in headers ourselves. This might be OK in your proposed width of opening but I wouldn't recommend forging ahead without expert advice. If not a structural engineer, at least an extremely competent and capable contractor.

People here have discussed hiring a structural engineer and the fee isn't that much. IIRC, a few hundred dollars. After receiving their feedback, you could determine if it's something you could do yourself with a few extra guys for extra muscle to lift a wooden beam. Or if you need a steel beam and more expertise. It would depend on the engineer's recommendation.

If you're going to do this, do it right. If this is something you would like to do in your home, I think you should at least pursue getting the information you need to make an informed decision. I think opening up that wall would make your whole house feel so much bigger that I think it's worth at least investigating further.

Hope that all makes sense. I'm in a bit of a hurry so I tend to ramble a bit when I'm rushed, lol.

Closet at bottom of stairs likely wouldn't work. I feel like that would be just too far to go. Plus there isn't really a spot down there.

As for the load bearing wall, after some research via google, you are right. It's probably the walls supporting things. That's a pretty big opening, and I would never try to do that without professional support. I would imagine that is a HUGE cost though. But wow would that look awesome. Then I could have the table with room all around it. We talked about taking out that wall when we first moved in 7 years ago, but it's just a huge project. If I went this route, I would be looking at 25k easy, which means putting more money on our mortgage... that's another discussion.

Hi, Daryl, I sketched this the other day, before I disappeared again ;), but didn't post it because you didn't want to give up the closet. Since you're thinking about moving it, what about recessing it into the kitchen, and having the table as you have it now, or with a banquette, as buehl mentioned? I think the builder put the closet in the current location to block the view of the bedroom hallway, but if you don't mind visitors seeing the hall from the front door, this gives you a little more floor space for the LR.

The appliances are still lone wolves, but at least it's a triangle. I like lavender's plan, too--it reminds me of my grandparents' kitchen.

Hmm...now that changes everything actually. I'll have to think about this one. If I'm seeing this right, this option I could leave the load bearing walls, which is an easier Reno Obv. I'd be a little worried about cabinet space, but I think it's doable. Actually,I think this is my favorite idea yet, in terms of not moving too much, but also being functional. Well done.

I can't thank everyone enough, I'm shocked by this last idea. I would have never came up with this in 100 years.

I only kind of skimmed the above comments, so excuse me if this was already suggested. Also, I did this quickly so if you like it you should check that I tranferred the dimensions accurately...

You misunderstood where I was suggesting the closet go. It would be in the hallway. On the main floor. The stairs would go under it. That's why I asked how low the stairs would be at that point....so there would be head clearance.

I have read here where people have had headers put in for $1500 or so. I doubled-checked with DH and, in one of our rentals, he expanded an opening to just over 8-foot and put in the header himself with the help of a friend. So....cost of the wood beam was all that cost.

The closet placement is a minor issue. Tearing out that wall could make a major improvement in your home so, to me, the extra cost would be worth it. I would get some quotes. Isn't it worth at least checking it out? Quite often here, people nix ideas due to cost until they get the quotes and find out the cost is much less than they anticipated.

However, I do like both the last plans that wouldn't require opening up the space enough to worry about a beam. Although I would still look into it just so you have more options. If it was me, I'd want the feeling of more spaciousness. YMMV.

I'm just glad you have good options to choose from now. :)

What is your style? Do you want a 70s home style, something more modern, something vintage?

The reason I ask....I actually think the closet location works and it's an expense you don't have to tackle....unless you want to change the flow of the main rooms. If you WANT a wide doorway, then maybe the money is best spent opening that up. But, if you prefer two smaller openings, then why not save the money for other areas?

If you wanted to do the 'farmhouse kitchen' then I don't think the closet is a problem. You'd probably have smaller openings....and while both lead to the living room, one also goes to the front door, the other to the bedrooms.

With this plan, I'd make the closet wall a message board and/or hang a few aprons. However, I'm a bit "vintage happy" right now (LOL) so my two cents might only be worth 1 1/2 :)

Idea for message board...old dresser mirror

And this is a really big table...but notice the little seating at the end of the counter!

Lavender...in that design, what would you have to the right of the sink? Space, or counter/cabinets?

Edit...I see the dishwasher to the right now

Funky...maybe I'll look into opening it up...I thought it would cost way more. In the closet walls, there is some electrical as well, but I think moveable. Yes,I misunderstood the closet location. There actually is a closet in the hallway that I didn't add in the sketch I drew. It's in between the bathroom door and kitchen entrance..so yes, above the stairs

I like upper cabinets....so probably dish storage to the right of the sink, as well as the left. On each side of the range you would have plenty of storage above and could use drawers or pull-outs in the base cabinets.

If you could add the prep sink, I'd do glass uppers there. But if not, maybe add a pantry and the microwave on that side. It really depends on how you cook :)

Whatever you decide....load bearing walls can be expensive! Some people have had great luck in opening their walls and others have shared horror stories, with many expenses.

Just a suggestion....but maybe start a new thread asking for more information on load bearing walls and people's experiences with removing them or changing their configuration. Might be helpful to you...and others on the forum!

Ok I think I have plenty of great options. I'm going to mull these over for awhile, and look at in 3d drawings. Then I'll be back. I'm stuck in between doing a bit more for better function vs just doing a simple update. Not sure what to do really, so need to think it over.

I imagine thinking of options and drawing up designs for me took time, so thanks so much. I plan to stay in touch through this process, but need to think for now.

You do need to think! LOL And start saving magazine pictures, internet pics, go to the library....anything that will help you envision what you want in the space.

So, you have three children. What are their ages? Is anyone still in a high chair? Do you think a banquette would work better than a table with all chairs?

Do you 'see' a lot of traffic between the front and back door? Or to the basement stairs? If so, you would want the range and sink on one side of the traffic pattern, if possible.

Does the family eat every meal at the table? Do the kids (or will they) be doing homework there? Do you need the table separate from the work zone....or will it be part of the prep space, before the meal? The placement of your table will determine how well this kitchen suits your lifestyle.

Think about everything that you do (and plan to do over the next few years) in your kitchen. That's the most important thing, IMHO. And what most people don't do enough of....at least if they're not on this forum :)

Ok...so due to money restraints, I've kept thinking. Maybe closed off is the way to go? It would eliminate openness for sure, but would solve the table issue...I think?

What are your thoughts of closing off the one opening near the door, and changing it to a half height wall. This would create an entrance to the house better, and would allow for a table to be where shown. But it would obviously eliminate an entrance to the kitchen.

Anyway, check it out please. I'm not sure about the kitchen configuration yet, but let's hear everyone's thoughts about this. Too closed? Odd? Or would it make a clear entrance at front, and a nice closed kitchen area?

If you can't move the sink, I think Mama's suggestion above is the way to go.

Yup that's what I'm thinking exactly mama. My worry would be that people would have to go around the closet in the living room to get to the kitchen. Because right now there are the two openings to the kitchen. I'm just worried it would close off the house too much. Sounds like both if you think it's the best bet though.

The only other thing I might do is put fridge depth cabinets around the fridge....but I'm not sure. I'll try and draw it up.

Which reminds me..what program do you all use for making designs?

Also, the reason I'm hesitant to move more things is because the room below is finished and would need demo to move plumbing. In fact, there is no plumbing on the one side of the kitchen, so it would be way too expensive.

It occurs to me that if you had a custom bookcase built, you could plug it in the current opening, and use a piece of new counter top as a ledge. The shelves could open on the LR side, slightly protruding, for books or display. It could also double as a drop zone for keys, cell phone, etc. If you ever want to restore the opening, remove the bookcase, et voila!

Click to enlarge:

That's a really good idea. How do you think of this stuff...I'm seriously floored at the ideas on here.

That would mean fully closed off, of course, but maybe that's better. I could build that pretty easily.

IKEA planner

Regarding too expensive... The sink is arguably in the worst possible location. I think moving it to below the front window would be the most important improvement to your kitchen.

If you weren't already planning a tight budget, I'd go with IKEA and the cheapest door and drawer fronts, preformed laminate countertops and a drop-in sink to free up funds to get that sink in the right spot.

Doors and counters can be easily upgraded later, but once you invest in a kitchen there's no ease in upgrading the layout.

I know you are right, but it would mean a basement demo. Not only expensive, but time consuming. It would take me months to redo the room under the kitchen. I'm not even sure I could get plumbing where it needed to go....but I'll consider it

Personally, I would put up with a torn up basement ceiling for months, live with plywood counter-tops for many more months, and other cost-cutting measures....heck, I'd live without full cabinetry at all for awhile and just make plywood shelves!...if it meant I was creating a functional kitchen that would quickly "pay" for itself by being more enjoyable and efficient to cook in.

I'm sorry but with the teensy bit of counter you have, I think it's even more critical than usual to keep the DW out of the prep space. And it's just as critical to actually go with a plan that gives you a decent length of prep space.

Whether or not you tear out the closet to open the kitchen up to the rest of the house or not is an aesthetic decision and the same with a half-wall, bookcase or other half-opening by the doorway which don't impact function. Those are not the issues I'm concerned about.

I am concerned that you're just throwing good money down the drain of your poor sink and DW placement.

No offense, MG. You're giving him the best plan possible within the limited parameters you have been given to work with. I just think the parameters need to be expanded.

Daryl, I believe you indicated you can do the plumbing work yourself. Pipe is cheap. Yes, refinishing your basement ceiling is a bit of a drag and will make a mess down there. If you're only living in this home long enough to flip it, go ahead and put in a dysfunctional kitchen. If you plan on living here for a long time, please re-consider and spend the time to put in a kitchen that functions well.

I'm simply speaking as an old lady who has lived with functional and dysfunctional kitchens and I will never live in a dysfunctional one again. It's not worth it.

No offense taken--all ideas are valid, and better proposed and considered, than not offered.

Daryl, the full depth cabinets beside the fridge are a good idea for storage, but would leave you no landing space. You could incorporate a pull-out board on the right side--and if you can build a bookcase, you can probably modify a cabinet to include a bread board.

Building a cabinet with a pull-out board/donaleen's kitchen.

Another example:

a2gemini's board:

***************************************

As for moving plumbing, you might consider mathteacher's solution of running plumbing through the toekick to an opposite wall:

I do think if you're gonna do this even halfway right, that sink has to be moved. I would never want a sink that ends where the counter ends like you show on here.

maybe mathteacher's piping will help.

One should never throw good money after bad and if you put the sink on the end of the counter like it is now, that is what will happen.

Additionally if you ever do decide to sell the fact that it is so dysfunctional will be a negative and lower what you can get in selling the house. People coming in May not be able to articulate why the kitchen feels off but they will feel it's off and the kitchen is what sells houses

Ok guys. I'll look into moving the sink. I think you have convinced me. I didn't say I would do the plumbing, so I'd have to pay someone to do that. I'm doing everything myself except plumbing, and connecting electrical. I'll run the wires myself of course. I need to rip up some of the ceiling for new wires anyway, so i guess I'll be pulling the entire ceiling.

The problem is that the plumbing (drain) connection is directly below the current sink, 7-8 feet down at the base of the foundation in the basement . I'm not sure how it would connect there. The water lines are easy though. Getting water over there will take no time or effort.

Back to the thinking phase lol

You're asking advice on a Kitchen forum--everyone here wants you to have a great kitchen, and moving the sink will help with that goal. But (and I know I'm going to get in trouble here), sometimes people have other priorities--small children, limited budget, time constraints. Remodeling is stressful, expensive, and limits choices that a new build would not. You aren't proposing much structural work, so if it's not in the budget, or the life plan, to do an expensive major remodel, keep the sink and DW where they are and live with it. You have the appliances, and you can do some minor improvements now, then do a larger project when the kids are older, and believe me, that will be soon.

I'm not trying to discourage you from taking on the larger project now, but weigh the advantages and disadvantages. Someone who buys your house will likely want to redo the kitchen anyway--I have a feeling that anyone who buys my older home will want to rip out the 1930s cabinets that I lovingly installed, in favor of doors that don't stick, and soft-close drawers.

Finally, I have the DW in my prep space--couldn't change it--and it works. I have only nine inches of counter space on one side of my sink, then an opening into another room. It's not ideal but it works, too. I know almost everyone will disagree with my advice, but I live in my world. I'm just saying carefully consider the options before you take on more than you're ready to invest. Ducking my head now. ;)

I support MGs statement. Particularly I'd say don't blow your budget. If you have water and power and working appliances you have luxuries many people in the world don't have. It's serving its purpose by helping you nourish your family. Ultimately it's just a kitchen.

There's the ideal kitchen....then there's the one that works with your budget and design constraints :)

Here's another idea (probably similar to earlier ones) but with the sink in the same position. I did close off the front door opening, but added a full wall for the banquette. It might be nice to widen that opening between kitchen and living room, if possible. Maybe another foot or two?

The optional rolling cart (or small island) is not large, but will help buffer the cook from the table area. And give you a little more prep space by the sink and range.

That entry wall gives you a nice area for hanging a few coats or a mirror and small table. Sometimes it's nice to have a little separation between the dining and living room.....and kitchen and front door. But, I'm a messy cook! LOL

not throwing anything at you mamag! I too have my dw to the left of my sink which gives me a little over 2' to the corner and probably less than 1' after the turn to my stove - that's my prep area. However, I'm alone here and don't cook much at all. most people could still work with that - even with a family.

The sink is different - at least to me. It's almost falling off the edge of the counter... there is nothing to the left of it! Even 1' to the left would help. I only have about 1' to the right of my sink, then the fridge.

I wouldn't break the bank for it, but I'd sure find somewhere else to cut back to have some counter to the left of the sink.

How about adding a backsplash....to the side of your sink? A side splash :)

Let me just say a word about the budget vs. function vs. time vs. other priorities issues. And this is intended toward no one in particular, just my general musings on such matters. Big projects can be bit off a chunk at a time. There's no reason a project has to be completely done first in order to enjoy being in it and working in it. If incremental changes are done that improve function AND if one cooks regularly, because they like to or have to, the joy of the increased function can outweigh the negatives of cheap, temporary finishes, unfinished areas, and other aesthetic issues.

I know because I'm going through it for the second time in my life. Each step was planned to be done in a way that we're never without an appliance or access to water for more than a few hours so we have never been unable to cook for more than a meal at a time, not days or weeks at a time; and each step has added better function to the space, was done at a minimal budget and, most importantly, each step has increased function so much that I'm filled with glee each time I use my kitchen. I've tripled counter space and now have counters where I actually need them. That's huge. Sure, they're plywood right now but they still work just fine and I have a dedicated baking center. DH is now finally making progress on putting in the plumbing and electric for the new location for the DW and the clean-up sink so that will be another huge step and I'll finally have a dedicated prep area with no DW in the middle of it.

We started the kitchen remodel in late Sept. 2014. We're not even half-done. I estimate it will be spring or early summer next year before we're done with the structural and layout work and then we'll start working seriously on aesthetics. Doing it this slow way yields a lot of positives as we started with a good plan through the efforts of the folks here at GW, but we are able to tweak it a bit here and there as we live with it and discover small changes that improve the function and future aesthetics, and we are able to shop sales, salvage, Habitat Re-Stores, and other low-cost places to help us keep the cost down enough where we are able to pay as we go, not going into debt or drawing from savings to pay for it.

If we had done a rush job to get it done quickly and with minimal changes to save costs, we would not be ending up with such a great kitchen that is absolutely worth waiting for. The functional changes and changes that do impact aesthetics for the better even though things aren't finished and we have no real counters, currently have mis-matched cabinets, are so worth it that I don't even notice that my counters are plywood. I bask in the function and how good I know it's going to be when it's done. I can wait. Delayed gratification can be a good thing.

I'm not sharing this to chastise but, rather, to offer a different perspective that might make sense to you. Or maybe not. YMMV. I just want you to have a nice kitchen that you enjoy working in.

Well, keep in mind that my current kitchen is a terrible functioning kitchen, that does not include a dishwasher. So regardless of what I do, it's an upgrade. I hear everyone's point of view, and I'm considering all of the opinions.

The one lavender suggested a couple of posts up is one of the options. I think for budget, it is the winner. Is it perfect in terms of function? No, it isn't. The sink is still in the same place. But it would still be an improvement over my current setup. I should note that I have never once (in the 8 years we have lived here), thought about the sink position being terrible. I realize it NOW, after everyone has pointed it out, but I truly had no idea. The one issue I see with closing off the wall, is that to get to the back door or downstairs, you would need to walk across the kitchen... in this design the range would be right there. I mean, it is currently too, but there is another route across the kitchen right now. So, that may be a concern for traffic flow? I'm still considering if switching the fridge and range might work better.

The other option is also one lavender suggested (and others), about moving the sink under the other window. I know this is a better functioning option, but it'll cost a lot more, I'll have to move plumbing, and it will take me more time.

My kids are 6, 4, 4 months, so needless to say, I'm busy. I am quite aware that it is possible that one day I'll say - I wish we would have done the big changes to the kitchen. I'm just not sure which one I am going to choose. I am not rushing this decision, but rather pondering all options.

Ponder away! Some of us spend months planning our kitchens. A few have taken years. It's better to ponder and feel confident in your final choice than to make a rash decision and regret it. Please let us know if you have any further questions or can help you in any way.

Some people remodel more than once! You might fix what you have and stay within your limitations...while the kids are young. Then, save for a few more years (and if you're still in this house) do a larger remodel.

As you say....anything will be an improvement. (And I know exactly what that's like! LOL) So do what works for now and then re-examine things in a few years.

What works now (for young children) might not work as well, for older kids/teens. Enjoy your time with them! From what everyone says, it goes by too fast :)

Oh....and the fridge or range on that side wall. That's really a question of how the kitchen functions best for you, IMHO.

Do you want the range across from the table? Or do you want the fridge/pantry there? With young kids, I would probably keep the range over on that side wall...and away from helpful little hands. Then the fridge and pantry (drinks and snacks) are easy to access from the table.

Ok, time to update with the 99% finished product. I just need to change out one light fixture, and then it's done. I took all your great suggestions into consideration, and did the best that I could.

I did everything myself, except for my buddy helped me with the cabinets and countertop. We originally left the opening where the table is, but after about 2 weeks we realized we had to close it off for the table to work.

I realize that it isn't perfect function, but it works for us, and it's 1000 times better than what we had. Honestly I am completely thrilled with every single decision we made. I love it.

We used a bench for the wall side of the table to save space, and bought some "ghost" chairs to make it look like it had more space. I absolutely love the backsplash we chose, although my pics don't do it justice.

Anyway, just thought I'd update. Thanks all.

The kitchen looks great--I love the colors of the cabinets, backsplash, and counter. Thank you for coming back to show us the (almost) finished kitchen. Enjoy your fresh, new space!