Assuming your photos are on the device you post from. Click on the photo button below the comment box. Then click on the photo you want to post. You can do it repeatedly.

What brand of RTA have you used? There is a broad range of quality among RTA just as there are in already assembled cabinets.

I'm assuming you purchased fairly inexpensive cabinets in the past? We did RTA cabinets and they were by no means cheap. They were, however, a less expensive option than the other (high quality) cabinets at which we were looking. We've been highly satisfied with the quality (4 years later). We have both painted and stained cabinets.

Regarding cabinets you paint yourself - I've done it twice with prior kitchens and never will again - the chipping drove me crazy. Regarding staining oneself - I can never get it done perfectly.

Good luck with your remodel!

Saying all RTA cabinets are bad is like saying all assembled cabinets are good - neither is true. What brand(s) of rta cabinets have you used?

Yes, I do think that cabinets painted at home will not last as well as those painted with a special catalyzed paint in a shop with a spray booth...I do think that IF you really know your stuff you can meet or exceed any shop's ability to stain-finish the cabinets. I think that on a regular cycle (annually) you have to really clean ALL of the cabinets in a kitchen (maintenance is seldom discussed on this forum). The key to RTA is the cabinets' strength and mechanics relative to their price, you are not buying RTA for their finish.

Not all RTA cabinets have the same finish. It's like saying all custom cabinets are terrible. Or all cars have paint that peels. Or all shoes fall apart after one year.

Home finishes will not hold up as well as a good factory finish. There have been many threads on here talking about finishes, and especially the difference between a good factory finish and "paint." You can use the search function on this site or search via google for something like gardenweb kitchen factory finish.

Your garage and basement isn't climate-controlled, so the wood will expand and contract and the paint will have those issues. You can buy RTA cabinets with catalyzed painted finishes. Barker sells them and I believe Conestoga does too.

Maple doesn't take stain well. They always look blotchy to me when stained. You might consider natural cherry, but I would avoid any company that uses a lot of sapwood.

IKEA. Our 13 yr old IKEA kitchen is holding up beautifully.

OK, so Let's see if these pictures go up. It is of the five cabinet samples I could find. The three painted samples all have problems. Some more then others. But, in general the two stained ones are doing great, the painted ones have problems.

@mayflowers: Excellent point. I think that has helped cause the problems. But, the two stained ones were in the same environment--and they look good still.

The 'catalyzed painted finishes' seem to only be with Birch and MDF for the center. I'm kind of concerned about Birch and MDF will not hold up well. What is your thoughts??

What brand of RTA?

From the Kitchen FAQs (linked from the "New to Kitchens" Read Me thread:

GENERAL INSTRUCTIONS FOR POSTING PHOTOS:

Most people will see four options in the ribbon below the message text box:

• Photo (with camera icon): For posting photos from your computer or a photo hosting site

• Houzz Photo (with house icon): Primarily used for posting pictures from a Houzz site

• Video (with arrowhead icon): For posting a YouTube or Vimeo video

• Link (with chain icon): For inserting a link with a label

This FAQ will discuss the first two items - Photos.

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NOTE: Since Houzz reduces most pictures by quite a bit - sometimes making it difficult to read, for example, measurements on a floorplan - it is recommended you also include a link to each photo you post - but this can only be done if you use a photo hosting site such as Photobucket. The links will need to be in addition to the picture because, unlike GardenWeb, posted pictures are not "selectable links" that take you to the poster's Photobucket, Flickr, or other photo hosting site account.
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So, how do you post a picture using the "Photo" link/icon?

NOTE: It has been reported that Apple products do not function properly on Houzz when attempting to post pictures from someplace other than your computer. The "Photo" and "Houzz Photo" links either do not appear or do not work properly. If you encounter these issues, you may have to post from you computer and not a photo hosting site.

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Using a picture on your computer

1. Take a picture using a digital camera (or film camera, but get your pictures on a disk when they're developed & download them to your computer) Resize your pictures so they're not too big, generally no more than 400x300 (or 300x400 or 400x400).
2. Upload the picture to your computer
3. Place your cursor in the message text box where you want the photo to appear in the message.
4. Select the "Photo" icon.
5. A "File Upload" window will appear.
6. Navigate to the folder/directory your picture is in on your computer.
7. Select the picture you wish to post in the message and select the "Open" button
8. The picture will appear when you are returned to the message text box. (This may take a few minutes. If the picture hasn't appeared in two or three minutes, you may have to start over from the beginning with your post - that's happened to me a couple of times.)

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Using a Photo Hosting Site (e.g., Photobucket, Flickr, etc.)

1. Open an account w/Photobucket or other photo hosting site to store your pictures. Personally, I'd rather have my pictures in one place so it's easy to organize them and post either pictures or links to individual or sets of picture.
2. Follow step 1 above
3. Upload the picture(s) to your Photobucket or other photo account.
4. Navigate to the picture you wish to post in the thread message
5. Copy the URL for the picture. See the How do I post pictures? FAQ for what URL to use based on several popular photo hosting sites.
6. Follow steps 3, 4, and 5 above.
7. In the "File name" box, paste the URL for the picture you are posting and select the "Open" button.
8. The picture will appear when you are returned to the message text box. (This may take a few minutes. If the picture hasn't appeared in two or three minutes, you may have to start over from the beginning with your post - that's happened to me a couple of times.)
9. Next, insert a link to the picture by going to a new line below the picture and posting the same URL as a link. [Select "Link" icon, enter appropriate information in the "Text to Display" and "Web Address (URL)" boxes.]

@mayflowers & @practigal:

So my wife, who rules the kitchen, has changed her mind and wants stained cabinets (because of the chipping and cracking of painted cabinets). I'm not into as low of dollar and cents on this remodel (since I will live here). Besides Barker and Conestoga, who do you recommend?

Thanks,

Stan

OK, picture of separating seam. Not too bad though.

Just an FYI, I think most basements are climate-controlled - and much more consistently than the upstairs. Our basement is heated in the winter and cooled in the summer.

In the winter, it's not as warm as the upstairs, but it's still heated.

In the summer, it's usually cooler b/c it's the basement and is underground and is at the mercy of the upstairs temperature, but it's still cooled via the A/C to remove moisture from the air - although it's never particularly humid/moist in the basement.

This cabinet has this crack running done the left/middle edge. The crack is on the top and bottom of the door. As can be seen the crack extends to the top and along the back. WIth pressure the crack gets bigger. I feels like with some force, I could snap it.

What level are you looking for? Do they have to be RTA?

• Builder-grade (I assume not)
• Stock
• Semi-custom
• Custom

Third door, shows paint chipping off. This door has it in multiple spots, but this is the worst.

Usually, factory finishes hold up better over time than on-site finished. Factories (and some non-factory cabinet makers) have a controlled environment - not just temperature, but also dust, etc. (think "white" or "clean" room labs).

All five sample doors I could find. I have had them for about three years. Some inside my basement, others in a detached garage. I live in Maryland. So, they get very hot and humid in the summer and cold in the winter.

All three painted doors have problems. Both stained doors look good.

I fully agree that they were stored in a harsh environment. But only three were in my garage (Two painted and one stained). The stained looks good. The painted was the ones with: The huge crack and the flecking paint.

So, I have an upscale foreclosure (four car garage, swimming pool (that is currently a swamp), etc, etc. My kitchen is huge (19 x 32 feet). Since I am going to be staying her for 10+ years, I want something that will last.

Best Regards,

Stan

I'm in MD too - but our basement is always pretty stable, climate-wise.

So, are you saying you would consider something other than RTA?

If you're looking for wood...personally, I recommend semi-custom for an upscale neighborhood. We used Omega Dynasty and they have held up very, very well and look great 7 or 8 years later. The nice thing about them is that if you need a custom cabinet, you can use semi-custom for the most part and just custom for those that need it. My Kitchen is mostly semi-custom, but I have 3 or 4 Omega Custom cabinets. (Omega also has wonderful Customer Service - which I experienced personally.)

For RTA, maybe Ikea - but you might want to order doors from somewhere else (Scherr's for example).

Since this is your long-term home and you are replacing the cabinets, I suggest you post your layout on the Forum (start a new thread) to sanity-check the functionality of it. Sometimes there are issues with a layout that you "live with" b/c you don't know of or can't imagine anything better. We can critique it for you, if you'd like - it's up to you, of course.

It looks like all of your samples are mitered doors???

IMO, whatever direction you go, the first thing you want to do is to avoid mitered doors. For one thing, the mitered joint is a longer joint than a butt joint would be. For another, the sliver of wood on the outside of the miter is going to absorb and lose moisture much faster (just because it has less mass at that point) and subject the joint to more stress and cause more problems with the finish.

Question for you: What is the one in the middle of the bottom row?

@buehl: You are man! (or woman?). Anyways huge advice. I really didn't know anything else the RTA.

Multiple people have asked for the RTA companies that I have dealt with. I really don't want to companies mention names. I have purchased from two RTA companies, and both have been great--and I will do business with them again. But, some RTA cabinets are just not long term solutions.

The middle bottom cabinet is called: 'Glazed burnished Cherry' , from thertastore.com . I will only mention good cabinets and good companies, as it's 'poor form' to be trashing companies on line. This cabinet was in my detached garage for the last year and still looks great.

Sorry, I was not clear. Yes, I would like to buy higher end cabinets. You mentioned 'Omega Dynasty' Can you give me some more recommendations!

And yes, I will post the design on this forum.

Thanks!

@cl_larto: You are beyond me. I had no idea that different joints had different advantages. Thanks!

SO, my wife just walked in, and plopped four more stained cabinets on my lap. Dust, dirt and all. They were somewhere in her garage. One seem seems to be separating (a little) but because it is stained, it just does not show up.

As many pointers as you all can give me to custom and semi-custom cabinet makers--please tell me.

Best Regards,

Stan

It neither shocks not surprises me that your import RTA cabinets have not held up. Frankly, you get what you pay for in that arena. Most Chinese cabinets have less than stellar finishes, assembled or RTA.

If you want quality, you're going to have to get used to the idea that 20-30K is about average for a kitchen redo for cabinets only for a not too big kitchen. If you want upscale, double that amount. You can triple to quadruple that amount too, if you want designer names involved. There almost isn't a ceiling.

There IS a basement that you really aren't going to be able to go under without compromising quality or features. You've used basement or even sub basement up until now, so brace yourself for the real world.

@live_wire_oak: If I have to pay $30K+ for just higher end Cabinets, then I'll just install my best 'hope' of getting decent longevity out of RTA's, and then do another remodel of the kitchen when I sell (or die) which ever comes first.

I have 5 kids, three are through collage and grad school, the other two have a ways to go still. Plus I have (almost) 5 grand-kids. I don't want to be paying 120K+ on this kitchen. (Just for giggles I brought in multiple companies. That's about what they wanted. Some more, some less.) In other words, I want to spend my money on helping my kids/grandkids out and charities through my church. Not on a higher end kitchen. To each his own....

BTW: I have sold two higher end houses in the past 5 years. Both had RTA cabinets in their: kitchens, bathrooms, laundry rooms. These cabinets looked gorgeous. Also, 'some' of the cabinets that have been in my garage, look as good the day I got them. Others, e.g. the painted ones, look shocking bad. Also, one of the stained cabinets I installed looked pretty bad too. It's a crap shot. But, I have always been a gambling man..

Is there no option between RTA's and $30K kitchen cabinets? The RTA store I have been dealing with since my last foreclosure has been beyond tremendous. I'm thinking of just staying with them--if there is no better options.

Best Regards,

Stan

"I suggest you post your layout on the Forum (start a new thread) to sanity-check the functionality of it. Sometimes there are issues with a layout that you "live with" b/c you don't know of or can't imagine anything better. We can critique it for you, if you'd like - it's up to you, of course."

This is probably the best advice you will get in redoing a kitchen - be is small or large. It starts with the LO and the best help you'll get is on here - free.

Numerous minds and eyes viewing your LO and giving input. Professionals and non professionals, those who have lived with 'it' this way and that way and know the short falls of each will chime in to tell you.

And at your age, things to think about are for aging in place (that includes other areas of the home). With a kitchen that size, maybe a mini golf cart 'cause rollers skates would be more like 'falling in place' - lol! I'm in my 60s and love that my kitchen is smaller and the work area is tight - about 2 steps from stove to sink and about 2 more steps from sink to fridge. Of course, here it is just me.

Also, think twice about those more 'decorative' cab doors. They are dust, grease and 'heaven knows what' collectors waiting to be cleaned over and over. I try at every turn when I redo, add to, change something in my home to make sure it is the option that is very easy to use and clean.

@desertsteph: Great advice. Thanks!

Debrak: Thanks! I've done a lot of thinking about things. The RTA cabinets, that I pointed out, are doing poorly. But, the other ones are doing great. At this point, I'm just going to stick with the RTA company that I have used. Hopefully, I can find a finish that: I like, and that is durable.

Best Regards,

Stan

Sophie: You could be right (e.g. I'm dreaming), but I have tons of stuff to do in this house:

--> Full kitchen,

--> Four bathrooms,

--> Galley kitchen in the basement,

--> and a wall of storage cabinets.

If I can cut corners *AND* get a quality product, I will. But, your Venn graph is certainly useful to think about. Thanks for sharing it.

Best Regards,

Stan

I would encourage you to take a good look at IKEA. It is as close as you will get to good, cheap and fast in the kitchen cabinet world. They are a very good value for the money.

SO, my wife just walked in, and plopped four more stained cabinets on my lap. Dust, dirt and all. They were somewhere in her garage. One seem seems to be separating (a little) but because it is stained, it just does not show up.

Somewhere in her garage? ANY Cabinet stored in a garage, as opposed into the conditioned space of a kitchen isn't going to fare well. Sorry; but I personally think RTA is the way to go for many, many situations.

No one has mentioned something that is obvious to me here. Almost all of these are mitered door styles and those are notorious for separating at the joist especially with a painted finish.

Paint has a thick film compared to stain and a mitered joint moves a lot more than a cope and stick . Combined the large movement and thick brittle paint are a recipe for failure no matter if the manuf. is from Guangzhou , Western Europe, or Willie's garage.

There are of course a ton of variables that factor in too , like humidity, wood selection, paint grade, type , thickness, application environment , ect... but at the low end of price spectrum you can be sure that the thinnest most flexible paints are not being used nor the highest quality moisture stabilized wood either .

Agree with several points above. It seems unreasonable to write off all RTA cabinets due to what you found with your sample doors, given:

- The doors were not actually installed in a kitchen but stored in a garage and basement where there are more temperature and moisture fluctuations. Those areas tend to be more extreme environments (and reason why certain flooring and other products aren't recommended for use in those areas).

- The doors have mitred corners that are more prone to separating, and not all RTA cabinets use the same type of joints so they can't be lumped together.

- You mentioned that the stained doors are fine but the painted aren't. Stain should absorb into the wood and change the color of the finish, where paint is a top coat. It makes sense that if the doors were exposed to cold and heat and moisture (and possibly being bumped around in storage) that the painted surfaces show more peeling. Not because they're junk, but because they weren't in the right environment for use and paint can lift off a surface where the nature of stain is different.

Okay, this old, but I am interested in what you decided. I have American made custom cabinets, 15 years old, where the paint is chipping beyond belief! The problem is that the insides are just just and falling apart. I am trying to find something different.

Yet you keep gravitating to the same kind of cheepchinesecrapola that will only wear worse than what you have.

What do you want? Quality or crapola? Start from there. TANSTAFFL. You don’t get high end custom cabinets for a cheap low end price. Period.

Ame, do Ikea but avoid veddinge.

I'm surprised that this thread is still alive. But, here is my two cents. Since I first asked the question, things have changed for me. I had planned on staying in this house when I retire (e.g. from my day job as being an engineer). However, instead I am planning on moving when I retire. My wife and I have 5 kids, and we most like to be closer to them. So, I have about 1-4 more years left here. So, I'm not thinking in terms of 20+ years using the same cabinets.

Also, since I posted this first question, I have purchased two more sets of cabinets from the same RTA company:

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#1.) A built in stereo system set of cabinets (I'm a high end stereo junkie): 4 Base and 3 wall cabinets. Then the tons of stereo stuff is put on top of it's counter. I put all speaker cables behind the walls.

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#2.) A basement Kitchenete WITH a raised bar:

--> Built against a wall: 6 Base cabinets; 4 wall cabinets.

--> Opposite to this Kitchenette, so forming a galley kitchen of sorts, is a raised bar: 5 base cabinets. Then people sit on raised bar stools and then bar-tenders, in back of the bar, can turn around and use the sink. I hope this makes sense. BTW: I looks gorgeous!

*********

I used the same RTA company as before, and they have been great. When I upgrade my kitchen (after hip replacement surgery), I'm planning on using them again. I have been through 15+ kitchen re-designs and they redo the drawings every time. They are so patient. I have no complaints.

Are the cabinets top quality--no. Do I get more for what I pay for--yes.

If I ever do wind up in a 'forever house', will I use them again? I don't know. But, they are in the running.

BTW: My relator has told me that all my improvements (In this Washington D.C suburb house) will net me almost $300K in profit. That is with an additional outlay of $100K for my supplies. So, before the selling expenses, I will pocket $200K. Not bad for a night and weekend job.....

Best Regards,

Stan

I am with you RTA is an option. I have a older friend who is a cabinet maker, trained by his father, he makes incredible cabinets! They are amazing, but I can't afford them and would not ask him that big of favor. But, when they first came out with waterbased cabinet top coat, he used it on my parent's cabinets. UGH, it only lasted 2 years before we had to sand them and recoat. Fortunately he had used amazing materials and they are gorgeous still 25 years later. BUT my parents also chose slab doors (not at all popular back them, but high style now) and no stain, just beautiful wood. There is no joints to seperate and once we added the extra coats of top coat, they will outlast us all. The deal is that processes and products change, due to epa, supply, carb, health concerns, etc. I myself sanded and painted (slab) oak cabinet doors with oil based paint and got a mirror finish that probably out lasted the kitchen, but I doubt I could find that kind of paint now! I think it is a balance between the look you want and cost and durability and safety. I think I could take old lead oil paint, cover an expensive slab door and it would last forever, be dangerous to do and to have, and I would hate the look! I also hesitate to spend money on "forever" anything because I might just hate that look in 15 years and have spent so much I can't afford new. I look at it as buying a car, I want to get something nice, but reasonable, if I buy a luxury car, I won't be able to afford gas or even fix it, because I spent so much on it, so I ended walking as my luxury car sits in the driveway. It is not going to do me much good to spend so much on cabinets that I can't afford food. (No Ikea...everything I have bought from them broke long before it should and it too is made in China.) If I can't look into rta from China, then I must live with ugly, peeling painted cabinets with boxes that are made of particle board and fiber board (not even MDF). Why, yes, they were custom made in the USA, by local craftsman!

It seems to me like this one comes down to the specific finishing department of that particular RTA cabinet supplier. Proper painting, staining, and overall finishing is difficult to do. Moreover, everybody seems to do it a little bit differently. If a finisher wants to cut corners, perhaps by using one thick coat of primer instead of two thin coats, you may see cracking in a few years (or months in some cases.) If a finisher mixes their catalyst too quickly or in the wrong proportions, it will have a big impact. Many shops have quality issues with their finish work at the turning of the seasons (spring and fall.) Sometimes the paint supplier that the cabinet shop gets their paint from will have a 'manufacturing issue'. Overall, paint suppliers have significantly improved their products. Also - more and more machines are starting to replace the finishing work being done (for better or for worse.) There are a lot of things that can go wrong! This is why it's important to find people that do good work and love what they do.

It is a good thing to do your homework on the quality of each cabinet supplier's finish work. Customers typically give reviews shortly after installing their cabinetry, and rarely voice their opinions five or ten years down the line. Find a customer here on Houzz, maybe on the forums here and ask how their cabinets are holding up.

If anyone is concerned about the quality of a cabinet shop's finish work, they should ask at least two essential questions. Have them describe their finishing process, and ask about their warranty. Cabinet shops that stand by their work will replace defective products.

A professional cabinet finish isn’t slapping on house paint. And “custom” doesn’t mean ordering parts and pieces from 4 different door profiles and 4 different materials. The term has been greatly bastardized by those who want to take advantage of the ignorant. No one even takes wood shop any more. The knowledge base that used to exist even among the high school graduates is just absent.

Thank you Scherrs for being so helpful! I am going to keep that in mind.

Yes, Sophie people don't take shop. My father, a shop teacher, was retired because the school district decided to close shop classes to force students to do more college academic classes....the west!

I guess I neglected to mention that every piece of wood trim in my whole house was NOT primed! I will slowly be scrapping, sanding a priming every trim bit over the next few years! I don't think the cabinets were painted by the trim painter, but I greatly suspect they weren't primed either!