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prairiemoon2

Need a new dishwasher that actually works [g]

Time to replace the clunker we've been putting up for the past five years. It doesn't clean the dishes. A cycle takes hours. Despite having a stainless steel interior, the interior needs cleaning every month.

We don't want to buy top of the line, but just something that gets the dishes really clean consistently and is a reliable machine, hopefully with some longevity.

We're replacing a Whirlpool.

Comments (45)

  • 8 years ago

    All new dishwashers seem to take hours for a full (not "express") cycle. We run ours at night and empty it the next day.

  • 8 years ago

    How much do you want to spend?

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  • 8 years ago

    sjhockeyfan - We do the same thing, and I realize they are all longer cycle than they used to be. The main criteria are that it does an excellent job of cleaning the dishes and does not need to clean the entire inside of the dishwasher more than a couple of times a year. Cleaning out a filter is expected.

    Thirty years ago, we had Kitchen Aids and they were amazing. Spotless dishes every time. Never had to do any interior cleaning except around the edge of the door. I don't know what they did, to make dishwashers so problematic.

    We spent $600. on our last dishwasher, so I am expecting to pay more. Hopefully, I don't have to spend more than a $1,000. to get a dishwasher that works.

  • 8 years ago

    Those old KitchenAid dishwashers from the 60's and 70's were the standard by which all dishwashers were judged. Unfortunately, those days are over thanks to EnergyStar. Manufacturers get a hefty financial kickback from the government to build these "efficient" machines replete with tiny little pumps that "pee" on your dishware; hence the long cycle time. Wash temps on the "normal" cycle are limited to 104 - 106 degrees. Phosphates were removed from dishwasher detergents hence the dirty build-up inside your machine. I'm all for conservation and being environmentally friendly ..... providing the darn things work correctly.

    You didn't say whether or not you have hard water. If you do and you don't have a whole house softening system, look for models that have a built-in softening unit. It will make a world of difference in cleaner dishes and significantly reduce mineral buildup in the dishwasher.

    If you want a dishwasher that will clean like those old KitchenAids and do it quickly, there are options available ... but they ain't cheap. Miele makes a line of quasi-commercial units (ProfiLine) that work just like those units of old. They run on 220-240 V and the Universal (i.e. normal) cycle clocks in around 35 minutes. Prices start around $3200.00 plus a couple hundred extra if you want a stainless front panel. Best money I ever spent.


  • 8 years ago

    Wash temps on the "normal" cycle are limited to 104 - 106 degrees.

    Dishwashers (connected only to the hot supply) can't cool the incoming fresh water flow. The temp will be higher if the incoming household water supply is appreciably more than 104°F to 106°F, at least initially and not considering thermal loss to the tank and dishware.

  • 8 years ago

    Modern dishwashers rely more on temperature and detergent action than water pressure. There are some caveats and differences in use and care, but at the end of the day it works just as well. My bottom of the line $1000 Miele cleans as well or better than my old Hobart/Kitchenaid. It does so much more quietly. I would expect similar performance from a Bosch in the $600-1000 range. However, it does need rinse aid to even come close to the same drying performance, it takes many times longer, and the filter does need cleaning once and a while. Tradeoffs I'm willing to make, but if you're not, you'd be best served looking for an older dishwasher on Craigslist.

  • 8 years ago

    MarkB - I agree with you, those old KAs were the standard and that Energy Efficiency is great if they actually work. What good is less water, if you have to run it twice to get them clean, or worse, wash them by hand afterward?


    We may have some hard water, but not excessively so. We end up with some white film on the bathtub spout.

    Meile is about the only dishwasher that they don’t carry at the Appliance store where we usually buy our dishwasher. They have an excellent service department and are a family owned business. They do carry Bosch. I am wondering if I should find someone that carries the Meile though. But there is no way we will be spending $3200. for a dishwasher.


    HVTech - I really miss the water pressure.


    Front loading Washing Machines don’t clean any more either.

  • 8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    Check Craigslist. My favorite older dishwashers were the Whirlpool Powerclean series which were sold under the Whirlpool, Kenmore, KitchenAid brands. Maytag also made a nice dishwasher. For the best water pressure, look for standard tub models as opposed to tall tub. Those types of DW's are a nice hybrid between the powerful pumps and drying of a Hobart/KA, and the noise level/efficiency/parts availability of today's machines.

    If you don't want to go that route, I would pick up a Bosch from your local appliance store. They have models that will fit your budget, and you know you will have good local service if you need it. But just like a front load washer, you need to learn how it differs from what you're used to and adjust your habits accordingly, or you won't be happy with the results.

    Water hardness is easy to find out, there is no need to guess about it. Call your utility or test it yourself before you upgrade the dishwasher. If more than a few GPG on average, get a model with a built-in softener. It will be worth the price premium.

  • 8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    Great to have that information on older dishwashers, but I'm not going to be able to go the Craig's List route. Although I did take a quick look and saw a Bosch model# SHE43RL2UC and #SHS5AV55UC for sale.

    Would you say that the Bosch - - I'm considering either the # SHP65T55UC or the #SHX3AR75UC - - is better than the lower end of the Meile line? I did see some Meile models under $1,000. on ajmadison. The Bosch is shown to be a 95min cycle vs others that are about 135min, which is nice. I'll have to go back and look for a model with a water softener in it.

    I do think your point that if the local service is good, that can make up for any service issues. Still it's said that the Meile has longevity. Just trying to consider the Meile fully before I go for the Bosch. I have seen a couple of reviews that report service issues with the Bosch.

    What about Samsung or Electrolux?

  • 8 years ago

    I would not buy a Samsung or Electrolux dishwasher. I like some of their other appliances, but wouldn't touch the DW's with a 10 foot pole.

    Between those Bosch's I would want the SHP model. The SHE3AR is the Ascenta model - not horrible, but it's definitely more cheaply built than the mainline Bosch units, and the tub, although mostly stainless, has a plastic floor.

    I like the low end Miele better than those Bosch units, I just feel it's better built. However, I would make sure you have service in your area first. Also keep in mind that the bottom of the line Miele will have less cycles and features than the Bosch models that cost the same or less. If you're OK with that I would definitely try to go that route.

  • 8 years ago

    I have the Bosch SHE53 for a few months now, so far it is solid. I love the Speed60 and I love that it doesn't have a heating element that melts plastics. I do rinse plates before putting them in the dw and use the recommended dw soap and jet dry. Dishes come out perfectly clean and dry. No issues whatsoever.

  • 8 years ago

    HVTech - I did call our local Appliance dealer who has a good service department and they've started offering Bosch, but they don't offer Meile and explained one of the reasons they don't is because availability of parts is not good. And I just tried locating a dealer near me and they're not very convenient to where I live. So I think I'm going to go with a Bosch. I'm going to spend some time looking at their different models and come back to see which I'm leaning toward and ask about those.

    Thank you!


    MsJam2 - Good luck with your machine. Nice to have one that works!

  • 8 years ago

    prairiemoon,

    Before you look at any model, call your utilities provider and ask about your water hardness. In my area, that information is available online. Our provider publishes an annual water quality report that shows the average hardness as well as the lowest hardness and the highest. If your water hardness is 5 grains/gallon or over, you will need a model with a softener to get the best results. Good luck in your search.

  • 8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    I've never checked before but I just did. On the San Francisco Water website, it says the following, which I don't understand. I have a Bosch SHV68T53UC which cleans very very well. I don't have a separate water softener. Would it work even better if I did, or does it have one built in? (ppm 7-77, avg. 46).

  • 8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    Yours doesn't have the softener, if it did you'd need to add salt. 1 GPG is equivalent to about 17 PPM, so your water isn't that hard, less than 3 GPG on average.

  • 8 years ago

    Mark - Thanks for all that information. I just called our Town Water Dept and he told me that in our town the Hardness of the water is between 7gpg and 11gpg. So I guess it is harder than I expected. He said that in the section of town I am in, I'm most likely at the lower end of that range.

    So, I guess we'll be better off looking for a model with the water softener in it.

  • 8 years ago

    That's going to push you above $1000 though.

  • 8 years ago

    I had a feeling you had moderately hard water based on your description of your bathroom fixtures. Good on you for checking! Spend a little extra for a softener model and you will have cleaner dishes, cleaner dishwasher cavity, and you will increase the life expectancy of your dishwasher.

  • 8 years ago

    I have been looking at models all afternoon. I called the dealer and Bosch to try to determine which models have the softeners and are in a white finish, which I need to match the rest of the appliances in the kitchen. They only have a white with a water softener in the 300 series. I didn't want to buy that low in their model choices. I was hoping for an 800 series and maybe a Benchmark because there is a $200. rebate. He said all I can get is either the 300 series or a 'panel ready' machine. I have never used a panel for a dishwasher, so I assume that means you have to buy one from a cabinet company to match your cabinets? But mine are 15 years old and I wouldn't be able to match mine. Throwing a little bit of a wrinkle in things for me.


  • 8 years ago

    After talking to a few stores around my area, I'm convinced to go with the Miele Futura Crystal Series. Truth is how many different cycles do you normally use anyway. It's the one my sister bought and she has nothing but positives to say about it. Also as the stores said, Miele doesn't skimp on their parts for the different models. What you get on the higher priced models is more and different cycles and more bells and whistles, but the basic DW is the same throughout the models.

  • 8 years ago

    Ok just finished reading and the dealer I was talking to today said that if I decided to go with a Bosch to absolutely stick with their 800 series.

  • 8 years ago

    prairiemoon, they're wrong. You can get the Benchmark in White with a built-in softener. The model # is SHE7PT52UC.

    The 300 series with the softener they were talking about is an ADA model anyway, which I don't think is applicable in your case.

  • 8 years ago

    I LOVE my Miele - G 6165 SCVi Crystal Dishwasher

    It actually saves me time in the kitchen because you don't have to clean the dishes before putting them in - my old Kitchen-aid couldn't have handled that.

    My dishes now have a shine I haven't seen in a long time, they are squekie CLEAN! It is quite for sure. I love love the layout and the flatware tray is so cool - no more scratched up flatware.

    When we were trying to decide on dishwashers, the appliance sales rep did tell us that if we decided to go with the Miele Futura Crystal Series we would be very happy with that model too and it is what she had in her kitchen with no regrets.






  • 8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    HVTech - Thanks for finding me that model # for the Bosch. I'm trying to decide. My usual appliance store with the great service doesn't carry it and can't get me one. He did say if I bought it somewhere else, I could sign up for their service program after the Man-Warranty ran out.

    I found some Bosch at Best Buy - they didn't have that model. They only had the Model #SHE3AR72UC that is an Ascenta in white with the water softener. It was only $445. So, I started thinking, for that little money, I could replace the machine 3x before it would cost me as much as the $1399. model! It's not ideal. Has some plastic in it, that I really hate. I like some of the features in the other model, but if it actually cleans dishes, why should I care? Plus I still haven't located anyone near me selling that model. So I'm stuck at the moment.

    Thanks Perky - I did try to find that model. I don't have a lot of local Miele dealers.

    I did find this model

    G 4925 SCU White Classic Plus Dishwasher

    For $999.

    I did find a white model with a water softener, but it was $2400. Do you have hard water?

    I'm wondering if I should consider a whole house water softener, since we are having some work done anyway. That way that wouldn't be a priority with the machine.

  • 8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    The Ascenta is their bottom of the line model and has no softener.

    I can understand why they may not stock that Benchmark model, but I'm very surprised they aren't able to special order it for you.

  • 8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    Bosch #SHE3AR72UC

    Here is a link to the one Best Buy has on sale. 700+ reviews on it. I just read 250 of them. OMGosh. Big problems with the machine. A door latch that about 40 comments reported. Known issue with the machine and they're still selling it.

    Plus everyone complains about the rack. Doesn't hold a 13x9 pan, someone said no serving dishes, or casseroles, glasses don't fit right. No wine glasses.

    Everyone complains that the inside of the dishwasher stays wet, the dishes are wet when load is finished. Few comments say water remains in the bottom. At least 10 comments refer to the smell inside the dishwasher. Some describe as dead fish, some as mildew. Which is what I thought could happen if the inside of the machine doesn't dry. Even the rep at Bosch told me the inside of the machine is always wet.

    Someone also mentioned that the dimensions are not exactly like American made and if you are replacing, there is going to be a gap between the cabinet and the machine.

    Someone said if you don't shut it off manually, it begins the cycle again.

    So that machine is out. And I'm wondering about any of the other models of Bosch as well. I can't see how the wet interior of the dishwasher is going to be different in any model, after the Bosch rep said they remain wet.

    *sigh*

  • 8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    First off, ALL dishwashers have a tiny amount of water that stays in the pump after the cycle and Bosch is no different. That's probably all the rep was talking about. The interior certainly does not stay wet all the time.

    I haven't heard about the door latch thing but it could very well be a legit Ascenta issue since there are that many complaints about the same failure. I don't think it applies to the 300 series and up. I would check the dates on those reviews... if they're a couple years back and no more since, it likely got fixed. If they're still being posted, maybe be more cautious.

    Most of the other complaints don't pass my sniff test.

    Dishes not drying could be either user error or customer expectation issue.

    Bad smell could be installation error, user error, or bad detergent. Multiple people have had smell issues that were resolved immediately by switching detergent.

    The cycle will not restart automatically if you do nothing. Only if you open door and close it again without shutting off the power.

    If people have trouble fitting their dishes, that just tells me they failed to do their homework before buying. You always need to carefully inspect the racking of any unit before you buy, and if you're unsure, bring your dishes to the showroom and try to fit them in.

    Again the only white Bosch DW's with softeners are the 300 series ADA model or the Benchmark. I would buy the Benchmark, the issue with the ADA model is that it is made to fit under lower countertops. While you can raise the legs up so it will fit under a regular residential countertop, it will still have a shorter tub so you would be more tight on space.

    If you don't mind spending extra and have service in your area, a Miele with a softener would also be a great choice. I would need to check but I bet there are Miele's with softeners less expensive than the $2400 one you saw.

    Unless you are bothered by hard water elsewhere in the house, I would probably just stick with the dishwasher softener rather than getting a central system.

  • 8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    A "wet interior" can mean different things.

    Dishwashers with a "heated dry" cycle have a heating element in the bottom (kind of like an oven element in an electric stove.) It gets the interior very hot which helps to evaporate water from the dishes and drain it out. The downside is that the heated dry can be bad for anything plastic that you wash. Some models say "no plastics" and others allow them only on the top shelf (far enough away from the drying/heating element that (hopefully) they do not get distorted, melted or damaged.) A wet interior may mean that the heating element has burned out or doesn't work (or maybe was turned off).

    Here, we are talking about "condensing" dishwashers. Bosch and Miele dishwashers are this type, These apply very hot water in the final rinse. When the cycle ends, the heat in the plates, cups etc. causes water droplets to evaporate from them. Rinse aids help this process. That evaporated moisture then condenses on the thin stainless sides of the DW. Being thin, they cool relatively quickly, which leads to more condensation. Upsides are: (a) that these models use a bit less energy (a big deal overall to the utility companies but not particularly noticeable on your side of the meter); and (b) you mostly do not need to worry about washing plastics. Downside is that some water droplets tend to remain on anything plastic or really thin (because they don't hold enough heat to drive off the water) and some of the water that collects in concave or rimmed bases (e.g. wineglasses, coffee cups, etc.) may remain.

    What I think the Bosch rep meant was that condensed water may still be on the interior walls after a cycle even though the dishes and tableware are otherwise dry.

    FWIW, our local water hardness is around 6 GPG (per the most recent publication by the town's water department a few months ago). About twenty years ago, I replaced an old GE DW with a Bosch. That Bosch DW (an SHU model, I think) did a fine job until something burned out in the control board three years ago. A replacement board was really hard to come by so I replaced the DW with a SHE55M model. That is a 500 series model. It has been fine (for me) without a water softener. Cycle time runs around 102 to 108 minutes (depends on what the sensors see in the first rinse). There is also a "Quick Wash" cycle which often does a very good wash in about 30 minutes. (The downside of the Quick Wash is that the dishes don't dry anywhere near as well as with the longer cycles.)

    At the time I was shopping, I did look into models with water
    softeners, and that included Miele DWs. Miele wound up going out of
    consideration for me because the nearest Miele service and support people are 180 miles away. While there is an appliance dealer in our
    nearest big city (about 60 miles away) who can order Miele DWs and parts, they do not stock any and do not provide service.

    As for water softeners, that can be a YMMV thing. Our water hardness seemed borderline (at least, as far as I understood it). I decided to skip the Bosch models with the built-in softeners because I had not had any problems with the old Bosch over the previous 17 years. I do have a whole house water filter but I put that in to handle the periodic bouts of grit and rust that began turning up when our town started rebuilding/replacing its vintage 1900 water mains.

    As for cleaning the interior, the only thing I do is pull the the filter every week or so (cleaning out if and when needed). I've never had to wipe down or clean the interior of my Bosch
    DWs. About once a year, I run a descale/cleaning cycle with some vinegar. (This is in contrast to my coffeemaker which I have to descale about every three months.)

    Some of this will be a YMMV thing.

    That also may apply to the choice of rinse aid and detergent. Have you seen the postings here about different brands of detergent and rinse aid working best in different places? Depending on your water, it might or might not take a little experimentation to solve problems if you run into any of them.

    If you do decide to go with a water softener, I agree with hvtech's reasoning for preferring the Benchmark model over the ADA-compatible Ascenta.

    As for there being Miele models with built-in softeners and a white front for less than $2400, I believe that some of the "Futura Dimension" models have built-in softeners, can be had in white, and go for around $1400.

  • 8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    HVTech - Well actually the Bosch rep specifically said the walls remain moist. And it was a homeowner that said there was water in the bottom of his dishwasher. So, that sounds like more than just in the pump, because it would have been visible to the homeowner. I do plan on calling Bosch back to ask about it again.

    But, one of my pet peeves is any kind of bad odor, especially mildew or mold problems. And there were enough reports of odors in the reviews of this machine to make it a serious consideration for me.

    The reviews were 2015.

    The complaints. 2 out of 3 comments mentioned dishes not drying. One comment said they were dripping wet. I might have seen 2 comments out of 250 that said their dishes dried fine. A good number of people said they were drying the dishes by hand.

    Not sure what you mean by ‘customer expectation’. Dry dishes can be put away when the cycle is done. Dishes that are not dry either have to be dried by hand, or you have to leave the dishwasher open to allow the dishes to air dry before you can put them away. Very inconvenient and defeats the purpose of having a dishwasher to some extent.

    The bad smells… I think people can tell the difference between a bad chemical smell from a detergent and the smell of mildew, that I imagine every adult person in the world recognizes. And the smell of ‘mildew’ was specifically mentioned in some of the comments.

    Only one comment specifically said, there was a smell for the first month and they called the company and it turned out that some kind of mastic that was used on the door construction, had not had time to cure and it would go away.

    So, yes, there were different reasons for some of the smells, but mildew smell was part of those reasons.

    Dishes fitting in the machine. I don’t agree with your reasoning about the fact that people didn’t do their due diligence on checking the racks. Either a company like Bosch knows how to design racks or they don’t. We’re not talking about a couple of complaints here, the majority of complaints, included the racks. And not just a small issue with them, but big issues. One person specifically named all the dishes etc. that they couldn’t fit in the machine. Casserole dishes, a 13x9 pan, Serving dishes, glasses with stems, even bowls. ALL of those items should fit in any dishwasher manufactured.

    Do you mean to say that the company did not attempt to fit these items into the dishwasher?

    Actually, the more expensive models, have different racks. They have tines that collapse to allow you to fit large, odd shapes into the machine. But, that’s not right. It’s one thing to save the bells and whistles for the more expensive models, but the basic model should do what it is supposed to be designed to do. I'll have to check out the operating manual to see if they include any photos of how dishes are supposed to fit in the racks.

    I am going to check out the Miele. I’ll have to visit a showroom that is a half hour away and ask a lot of questions about service and parts.

  • 8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    JWVideo

    I am confused about whether the Bosch actually has a heat element. I’ve read comments that say it has a covered heat element. But in the company literature, it does not describe a ‘heated dry’ cycle. It has a ‘steam’ dry cycle that is supposed to somehow contribute to the drying. I’m not getting that at all. And the more expensive models seem to offer a ‘heated’ sanitize wash cycle, so how they can do that without a heat element, I don’t know. I plan on calling again to clear that up.

    Personally, I really dislike rinse aids. I want a clean dish that has no chance of having a chemical residue from the cleaning products. I don’t want to wonder if it does or it doesn’t. I have no guarantee that the rinse agent or the dishwashing product, for that matter, aren’t leaving a residue on the plates. I’d rather have a very hot hot last rinse with no product and dishes I’d have to wipe dry a little, than have a worry over what was left on the dishes.

    Washing plastics - I’m taking every opportunity I have to eliminate plastics from my home. I’ve replaced all my food storage with glass. I do have some plastic in the lids, but I can wash those by hand.

    I don’t care about a little moisture in the depressions of cups and bowls, etc.

    And yes, that is what I understood the Bosch rep to say, that the walls of the dishwasher stay wet, because I asked him to clarify that. And it is that fact that leaves me with the worry of what that constantly moist conditions do to the interior of the machine. Mildew does not take that long to develop under those conditions. So the only way I can see to mediate that, is to constantly leave the door to the dishwasher open to allow it to dry out. Which I would not look forward to having to do.

    On the Bosch control board - I read that the electronics are in warranty for 5 years. So was your Bosch older than 5 years?

    I am going to check out Meile and I’ll be sure to ask if they stock parts and provide service. Thanks for that tip.

    We are planning on adding a whole house water filter, but I wouldn’t expect that to improve the hardness of the water, right? BTW - which whole house water filter did you get?

    I agree, that I wouldn’t consider getting an ADA compliant dishwasher.

    I made a very brief inspection of the local appliance dealer’s website that carried Meile and I’ll check them out in person and I’ll ask about a white Futura Dimension model. Thanks.

    As far as the difference between the Miele and the Bosch - using detergent only and no rinsing product, which would you expect to perform the best? Which brand would be least likely to create moisture/mildew problems in the interior of the machine?

    BTW- can anyone tell me - are there any ways to get discounts on either of these brands? I was hoping to get a rebate for the energy efficiency of the machine but in my state, they no longer offer them. I know Bosch is offering $200. off the Benchmark models, but that’s about it.

  • 8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    With modern dishwashers, you really should use rinse aid. That is what I meant by "user error" with drying. Even the ones that claim to have "heated dry" use a relatively wimpy element compared to what older ones used. And overall they are being phased out. . By "customer expectation" I meant that the modern dishwashers, even when used properly, won't dry QUITE as well as the old ones with the forced air, heated dry cycles. But they should certainly be "good enough" for most people.

    European dishwashers like Bosch and Miele, and a growing number of American brands, use hidden elements. This means you can't do a heated dry, but it also means they can heat the water more efficiently (proper water temperature is key for modern dishwashers).

    I don't have a Bosch, but I have a Miele which I know works the same way. The moisture from the dishes condenses onto the stainless interior, so yes when you open the door immediately after the cycle you will see moisture on the walls. But, shortly after the droplets roll down the walls and go down the drain at the bottom. They don't stay there for an extended period of time and it certainly is not "always wet". You should NEVER see standing water at the bottom of any dishwasher. That indicates a drainage problem, which could either mean the dishwasher was installed incorrectly, or it is malfunctioning.

    Smells - I'm not talking about the actual smell of detergent, but I'm talking about some strange chemical reaction that goes on with some detergents (it's a bit of a mystery, nobody has been able to explain it). But, people who have encountered strange smells in their dishwasher have often been able to resolve them by switching detergents. If not, then the dishwasher is most likely installed wrong or the filter has not been cleaned.

    As for racking - higher end dishwashers will be better. That's just the way it is. Needs in that area vary greatly from person to person. Evidently the many people who wrote positive reviews had no issues fitting what they needed to. It just seems strange to write a negative review about something that big which you should have been aware of before purchase.

  • 8 years ago

    While selecting appliances for our remodel, I did learn that while SZ/Wolf used to endorse the Meile dishwasher they no longer do. The reason being, is that Meile is now considered a competitor due to their expansion of other kitchen appliances such as the oven. The appliance store we used for our SZ/Wolf appliances quit offering Meile dishwashers and switched to Asko (now endorsed by SZ/Wolf). We looked at the ASKO and could not bond with it after all we researced about the Meile. I say this to point out that the reason some appliance stores may not carry certain brands is because of there other affiliations which was the case for our dealer, not because of the quality of the Meile, etc.

    "Thanks Perky - I did try to find that model. I don't have a lot of local Miele dealers.

    I did find this model

    G 4925 SCU White Classic Plus Dishwasher

    For $999.

    I did find a white model with a water softener, but it was $2400. Do you have hard water?"


    Yes - we are on a well and do have hard water. I wish I had thought to install the whole house water softner. It never crossed my mind so I haven't researched that.

    I got this email after we made our selection:

    Miele has incorporated new models on dishwashers. The
    "Crystal" is now G6165SCVI. It's the same dimensions, but upgraded
    features. I will forward over the upgrade features from my Miele sales
    representative.The new unit has been ordered TODAY. I should receive the new
    unit end of this week or early next week.

    Link:

    http://www.mieleusa.com/Product/Details/1177


  • 8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    1. Is a dishwasher a dish dryer ?

    2. Rinse Aid is necessary with condensation dry machines. Just like gasoline is necessary in combustion engined and hybrid cars.

    3. Wet dishwasher walls don't stay wet for long after the dishes have Ben put away.

    4. The cycle isn't " finished " after the last rinse has been completed. "Drying" takes place afterward and takes 30min to an hour and is silent.

    So of course you're gonna find wet everything if you open the door after the last rinse. This is operator error, not a machine fault.

    5. Any mildew , if present ,will be killed in the next wash cycle. Don't sweat it.

    6. Big plates, and bowls and casseroles WILL FIT in all these dishwashers .

    Its possible YOUR big plate, bowl or casserole won't fit in though. More likely is that they WILL fit, just not how you want them too. Is it really that much of a hardship to re learn how to load a dishwasher differently?

    I loved rotary dial phones, but then came along push button ones and now the actual buttons are gone and there just a flat screen with button outlines. I had to adapt and am still here. I bet those casserole challenged bosch users can too; by placing it flat instead of vertical !

    7. No rinse aid ? Neither bosch or miele will do what you want, so pick something else as a decision point. See above.

    8. Don't count on discounts. Finding a shop with an old display they are wianting to change out is usually the only way with miele. Bosch sometimes has schemes like mentioned , but not on the higher models.

    You should choose based on delivery of value for the reg. price. A discount is nice , but if it is frequent enough to be counted on in your decision - then it's really not a discount but a marketing scheme like Sears and Macy's use . Which the "sale" price is the real price and the "reg" price is an inflated one in which the customer in effect gets ripped off if they buy on a non sale day.

    9. People that can see the water in the bottom of their bosch almost always have an install error that causes poor draining. Sometimes it's a broken part , but this is not an indictment on the brand as a whole.

    10. Miele stocks parts in NJ. Local service companies usually don't stock parts for any brand. Too expensive , and we already complain about their rates now.

    11. SZ/Wolf has never endorsed miele as dishwasher from a corp. perspective. They have always been aligned with asko mostly as a distributor and just recently formally anounced a partnership that will be dicey for asko since SZ also just anounced they are building a new factory to build their own dishwasher.

  • 8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    prairiemoon:

    >>>the walls remain moist ... very inconvenient have to hand dry <<<

    Much as hvtech describes, If I open my DW door as soon as the timer hits zero, there will be a cloud of steam. The interior walls will have condensate on them. The dishes will be too hot to touch for about five minutes. Some of them will be steamy. After five minutes --- when the dishes and flatware are no longer going to scald your hands --- mine are dry enough to put away without towleing, etc. and most of the condensate on the walls has evaporated or drained.

    I have never dried anything by hand even when running multiple loads during the large events I periodically run. By the time I've cleared my DW, most of the condensate on the walls is gone. That's when I'm running loads during parties. Mostly, I just start the DW in evening and let it sit overnight. If the DW finishes before bed time, I'll crack the door. Even then, I mostly clear the DW in the morning and there's no moisture on the walls or dishes (except for deeply rimmed cup bases.)

    I live in the Rockies, though, where humidty is often relatively low (house never seems to go above 60%). Can't speak to how this would work in a place with extremely high, long term tropical-type humidity (weeks of continuously at or above 90% in 90-plus-degree weather).

    >>>water in the bottom<<<

    That is in the pump drain sump. It sits beneath a perforated metal plate on the bottom of the floor. The bottom of the sump is another 3½" or 4" down. Pretty much every dishwasher I've ever opened up has some kind of sump somewhere. It's just that Bosch and Miele and others make that sump more readily accessible than some other brands. If you see standing water on the floor of the DW (as opposed to some in the sump) there is a problem with the drain line. That could be a drain pump failure but most commonly will be the result of a failure to install the drain line with an air-gap and loop or a clog in the air gap and loop.

    >>> leaving the door open is wrong <<<

    Need to do this with front load clothes washer, too, and they're even more prone to mildewy smells if it is not done. It is not like you have to have the "drawbridge" down and blocking your kitchen. You do want to crack the door. Some do find this part annoying. If you hate front load clothes washers for that reason, a condensing dishwasher will not be for you.

    >>> Rinse aids --- don't want chemicals <<<

    Are you thinking that maybe current dishwasher detergent won't leave chemical residues if you leave off the rinse aid?

    Potential chemical residues are pretty much unavoidable if you want an automatic dishwasher. It isn't so much a matter of dishwasher engineering as it is the chemical engineering of the current enzyme-based detergents,

    EDITED TO ADD: and the increasingly lower water volumes used.

    Every home dishwasher I looked at three years ago -- condensing and heated dry --- all specified the use of rinse aids. These help both with drying and with keeping residues and mineral deposis from building up on the dishware. Dishwashers from several decades ago were designed to work with phosphate based detergents --- ETA with two or three times the water that current DWs use --- and often did not require rinse aids. The phosphates had some significant adverse environmental consequences. The current enzyme-based detergent formulations do a good job but need rinse aids in the current DWs. Some of the dishwasher tablets include a rinse aid but most DW detergents assume a separate dispenser for rinse aid. (Much as current clothes washing machines may have separate dispensers for detergent, bleach and fabric softener.)

    Rinse aids are surfactants. Detergents and soaps also contain surfactants. What surfactants do by themselves in rinse aids is lower the surface tension of water drops. Technically speaking, the surfactants in rinse aids lower the "interfacial" or surface tension of the water which otherwise would cause rinse water to bead up on the dishware, Beaded water can leave spots and or deposits and making it harder to automatically dry to the dishes. Basically, the surfactants make the beads flatten out, exposing more
    water to air (and so evaporating quicker) or "sheeting" instead so that water slides off the
    hot surface. The water (and whatever is in it) goes down the drain rather than evaporating on the surface.

    IOW, rinse aids affect the water rather than coating the dishware to repel water as glass waxes like Rain-X would do.

    Only way to avoid any contact with all these chemicals is to wash by hand using old fashioned soap flakes. Don't believe me? Have a look at what goes into the likes of Dawn and Palmolive.

    >>>"confused about whether the Bosch actually has a heat element" <<<

    Yes, Bosch and Miele both do have "heating elements" but they are in-line units to heat water, not the oven-like element in the bottom of the DWs that advertise themselves as "heated dry."

    For the final rinse., the in-line heaters raise the water temp to 160°F or higher. Sometimes called a "sanitize" cycle. That really does heat up the dishware. Then, the heat for drying comes from the residual heat left in the dishware.

    Commercial dishwashers work similarly - you put a rack of dishes in, the machinery whirs and sprays very hot water (say, 180°F or higher) for a few minutes, then you pull the racks and stack them on a drainboard. Some water drips from the racked dishes and the heat of the dishware makes the rest evaporate.

    EDITED TO CLARIFY -- as Dadoes points out below, the heating element is in-line
    with the pump and not the water supply line. The rinse water is heated
    as it circulates inside the DW. I should have used a term like "on-board" rather than "in-line."

    >>> Do not understand the difference between heated water cycle and heating element <<<

    Maybe this will help. You want the dishes hot enough to drive off any residual water and anything that might have survived the washing. The heated water method is like heating your dishes by using your tea kettle to pour hot water over them and then letting them cool. The "heated dry element" is like putting your dish rack in a 160° oven for a time.

    >>>On the Bosch control board - I read that the electronics are in warranty for 5 years. So was your Bosch older than 5 years? <<<

    Waaaayyyyy older than 5 years.

    I had it for 15 years, having bought it as a year-or-two-old floor model. IIRC, that model line was being replaced with new lines. My difficulty in finding a replacement circuit board after 15 years of ownership was simply because of how long that model had been discontinued. As an aside, Bosch did offer me discount towards a replacement dishwasher because the circuit board had burned out. (Apparently, there had been a product recall that I had missed by not sending in the registration card back in the 90s.) This struck me to be a stark contrast to Whirlpool which was adamantly denying any responsibility for its DW circuit board burnouts, some of which resulted in house fires. (If interested in that sorry tale, google "Whirlpool + dishwasher + fire." Add "gardenweb" to the search string to find the threads posted here three and four years ago.)

    ETA: checked my records and found that my old DW was actually 17 years old and that I had it for 15 years after buying it as a floor model. I've corrected the above paragraph accordingly.

    >>>Whole house water filter won't do anything about hardness<<<

    Well, not so you'd notice.

    >>>Racks and Loading<<<

    There is always a YMMV factor to this. With base model DWs, there is less flexibility in raising and lowering racks and raising and lowering tines. Some folks have huge dinner plates -- either very large diameters, such as 12" diameter, or very heavy (thick) ceramic, and maybe both. Depending on the DW model, some plates might be too tall or too thick. Other folks do not care for the tine layouts and loading patterns. This is one of those things you just have to check out in person. Sometimes it may be a big deal, sometimes it is just different from what you had before.

    I'm a case in point. When I bought my second Bosch, I stored the bottom rack from the old one because I was not sure how well the new model's different loading patterns would work for me. Turned out that I could fit more into the new one once I got used to it.

    Also, with my current 500 series model, I can vary the height of the top rack, raising it up for taller items in the bottom rack and lowering it for taller stemware in the upper rack. Until I got this feature, I had no idea that it would be so useful to me. Other folks I know --- well, they never use the feature and just don't care. YMMV.

    >>>As far as the difference between the Miele and the Bosch - using
    detergent only and no rinsing product, which would you expect to perform
    the best? Which brand would be least likely to create moisture/mildew
    problems in the interior of the machine?
    <<<

    Couldn't say which would do better without a rinse aid. Might be hard to tell if one is noticeably better than the other. As per what I said above, the need for rinse aids is mostly because of the the current enzyme type detergents and the lowered water usage.

    ETA: with very soft water, you might have less need for a rinse aid to avoid spotting (assuming you adjust the detergent amounts down) so a Miele with on-board softeners might do better than a Bosch without and vice versa.

    >>>Discounts?<<<

    Miele? From postings here, I've read of discounts for dealer closeouts and floor models but the brand is otherwise pretty much always premium priced.

    Bosch? Holiday weekend sales. Like this weekend's Columbus Day sales. Bought my most recent Bosch DW during a July 4th sales for $200 off by showing the dealer some on-line sales pricing from the likes of Sears, Lowe's and AJ Madison. Hard to predict which models will get discounted, though.

  • 8 years ago

    Technical correction on the inline water heaters. I doubt they heat the incoming water flow but rather the pumped water flow (after a given fill period is complete) is heated as it continuously circulates through the filter, tub sump, pump housing and various other components (one of which is the heating unit) and the spray arm onto the dishware. Inline means the heating unit is incorporated and concealed into the pump flow path rather than exposed at bottom of the tub.

    An electric heating element with enough capacity to instantaneously heat the incoming water flow to high as 160°F+ from what may be as low as a tap-cold supply as it passes into the machine from the household plumbing would require a much larger electric circuit than 120v 15 to 20 amps.

  • 8 years ago

    When it comes to appliances, the simpler the better. When companies start putting bells and whistles in things, they often cut back on actual quality. then there's the cheap bottom rung stuff. So hard to tell now.

    Having said that, The best dishwasher I've used (not my own) is a Miele.

  • 8 years ago

    ^^^^

    and they don't cut the quality to add those bells and whistles tibbrix .

  • 8 years ago

    Dadoes is correct. It is the pumped water that is heated.

  • 8 years ago

    Sorry, I haven't been back here in a couple of weeks. We did go to a Miele dealer 30 minutes away and then they told us they wouldn't service us because we are out of their service area. Pretty annoying, that they can't service a 1/2 hr away. I have one more dealer I can check, but right now, I haven't had time to do more with it.

    We're washing dishes by hand at the moment, so I'd like to get this done before Thanksgiving. lol

    Will try to respond to all the great responses soon as I can. Thank you!

  • 8 years ago

    Prairiemoon2,

    Did you call Miele directly to see if they provide service directly to your area? Miele will most likely do the delivery and installation too.

    Good luck!

  • 8 years ago

    You must be in a very remote area.

    30 min. from me could be ten miles away some days. Heck, most of the appliance installers we deal with live an hour outside the city and their client base. So, I'd have an issue with your dealer from the get go.

  • 8 years ago

    No, I haven't called Miele directly, but the company who told us they couldn't give us service, said that the Miele representative lives on the Cape and it takes 3 days to get service from him. I am in the greater Boston area, so, I would say I'm far from living in a remote area. Yes, I did have an issue with that dealer. I thought they were really not too interested in our business and if that's the case, that attitude usually carries over into the experience you have with someone.

  • 8 years ago

    Criky, 30min is too far in greater Boston ??? That could be ten blocks away and is ridiculous.

    Miele's decision to hire someone who lives out there seems daft too.

  • PRO
    8 years ago

    Miele has not yet rolled out their direct program in the boston area. Once they do in early 2016 you should be covered. Who did you try? I know Yale in that area has a good reputation.