I'm so sorry. If he is toxic, then take it slowly or not at all. Especially with the children, no matter their ages. While not seeing someone/being part of their life may feel like the wrong choice, sometimes it is best. "I will have a total breakdown" tells me you know deep down inside it's best for your and your family to cut ties.

It is a very hard decision. you don't have to shower him w/hugs and kisses nor reminisce about good times that didn't happen. All you have to do is restrain from harsh words and have compassion for a man that had a miserable life with estranged relatives and now an awful illness. Your kids are watching and when they are old enough they will understand the concept of you being the better person. What better example can you set for them. So, being good to him is really about being good to yourself. Should he start playing mind games you can recede but it will be with a clear conscience. Best wishes for desired outcome, it's obvious you want to do the right thing and that's says a lot about your character

I'm very sorry you are dealing with this Daisy. I really don't know what advice to offer you. Is there another relative you could talk with or even someone outside the family? A close friend? A counselor or pastor? The remark about a breakdown makes me think a counselor might be a good idea - they could give unbiased advice. I do think you have to do what is best for your own health (and mental health) and that of your children. As painful as it may be, your best choice may be to keep him out of your life.

daisychain, that is such a hard situation to be in. I don't see it as a mistake to follow your feelings--you felt like seeing him so you did. You feel like further interaction might overwhelm you, and it's fine to go with that feeling, too. Remember that you can set your own boundaries--maybe you are fine with seeing him very few months, but don't want to involve your kids, or maybe you will let him come to family get-togethers but don't want to spend one-on-one time with him (or vice versa). You can set the shape and limits of any relationship you choose to have with him. I wish you the best.

I agree with Allison. Daisychain, you are a caring responsible person and it's no wonder that you are now having conflicting feelings. I think on the one hand you are feeling the compassion anyone would for another person who is terminally ill. But, at the same time, we can't forget that he is a father that was abusive and unstable.

I always like to ask myself 'What good can come out of......"from what you are describing, I don't see the up side for you, your husband or your children.

But, because you are clearly conflicted, you might want to call your father once a week, just to check in. Make it clear that this is all you can give at this time.

One of my thoughts about tough decisions is to look through a crystal ball into the future. I ask myself, "Will I have regrets?" Then decide what is more likely to allow you to have no regrets. Would it be that he dies and you've not been in his life? Or do you imagine having regrets if you gave it a try and did your best (and took the great advice above about setting clear limits and boundaries) to have some small part in his life?

It doesn't have to be his way. You don't have to include your children. You can decide (if you do decide to give him some time) that you'll spend 1 hour per week, or 2 hours per month or whatever feels right.

And if you decide you'll have no regrets by keeping the status quo of no involvement, then more forward with intention and decide that you will have NO regrets and NO guilt. Promise yourself that you will not second guess today's decision once he has died. Remember that you were deliberate in your decision making and that this was the best decision for you and your family.

Oh Daisychain I know how you feel. Everyone around me seems to have decent, normal parents and when I try to explain why I don't speak to my mother anymore they can't fathom it. She was so emotionally abusive and unstable and my childhood was filled with constant angst. When I finally removed her from my life I felt such a sense of peace and stability that I knew it was the right decision even if others didn't understand. Its nearly impossible to put into words a childhood of suffering from the person who's supposed to make you feel safe. Its liberating to finally let go of societal expectations of how children should revere their parents.

So I suspect I may be facing what you are one day. The 2 points I would encourage you to consider is how you will explain this to your children. And I think its OK to tell them the truth about your choice if you choose not to be with your father in his dying years. You may fear that your treatment of him is setting an example of how your children will treat you. This is NOT the case because you are not treating your children the way your father treated you. That's the difference so don't let yourself fall into that trap that you're setting some sort of precedence for them.

My second point is that your father pi$$ed away any sort of love and support he may have been entitled from you, and being close to death doesn't bring it back. Look forward to the next generation... your children. You owe them, not your father.

Thank you everyone for your very compassionate responses. I really appreciate that no one is judging my need to keep my distance. The advice to keep my distance but keep in touch to the extent that I can manage makes sense. I just have to determine if I can keep strong and not fall into old habits and be manipulated. I know why he is the way he is (his parents were severely abusive), and do have sympathy, but it doesn't make it any easier to deal with him.

Speaking to a third party is also a pretty good idea, but I'm just not sure who that would be. I'll have to think about that, but in the meantime you guys are kind of it, so really appreciate the (many) shoulders to lean on.

I did the same thing to my MIL 5 years ago and it was like *I* had the new lease on life. I don't make excuses for it and I don't feel guilty about it. On the very odd occasion when I have to see her I remember why I cut her out of my life.

You need to remember why you cut your dad out of your life, remember who you used to be because of him and who you are now because of you. If he does negatively affect you, do you want to be bringing that into your own home. Do you want your kids in his presence being affected by whatever it is he may say and how he may say it. You have to decide if this is a can of worms you want to open.

That's why I cut my MIL out of my life - because of how she made me feel about myself and that negatively affected me as a mother and a wife.

I am on your side. You owe this man nothing, sick or well, but what will make you happiest? I have a feeling it is not total disengagement, or you would not have put out an olive branch. I would imagine you want to try to salvage something so that you no longer have emptiness where a father should be. And you want to be sure you have no regrets and can feel confident when he is gone that you did the best you could, whether he was deserving or not.

All of that is laudable and understandable. I wish you the best. I also agree go very slowly, wait a good lonnnng while before you implicate anyone else, and get a neutral third party - a therapist - to bounce things off of before you get caught in a vortex.

If your dad is abusive he is probably still a boundary-pusher and will test you again. I have a difficult relationship with my dad. I try to show compassion but set clear boundaries. If you can do that, and keep it to a healthy minimum, then you will have the peace of mind that you did the best you could. But keep it minimal. You just can't teach and old dog new tricks, I believe. My abusive father even tries to change, but there is too much baggage there. I do understand and have compassion for him, but that doesn't change his potentially toxic behavior. If I get one whiff that stuff is starting, I just say, sorry, I have to go/leave/end this conversation, whatever. I keep interaction short, that helps mostly.

Oh Daisychain, I am so very sorry. I wish I had an iron clad answer for you, but there isn't one. The best I can give, is to listen to your inner voice. Whatever she says listen.
As a Christian, I would say go to him, show him the love of Jesus and pray for him and with him if he so chooses to do so. Your witness could save his soul and change him for whatever time he has left.
The human me says cancer sucks, and I can't imagine going through it alone, but he made his own bed, so to speak, and now he has to lie in it. Yes, he may have had terrible parents, but that's no excuse. We all make our own choices to be good or bad. He felt it easier to be bad instead of getting help. I feel sorry for him, but you already did more than most would. If he's truly changed, he'll admit it and ask for forgiveness. If he just wants someone there to help him through, then that's something only you can decide if you want to be that person or not.
And again, the Christian in me, says, give him a chance. Tell him outright how you feel about what he did to your family, but give him a chance to repent.

I have no personal or professional basis to give advice. I think others have said it well; you do not owe him anything and you should do what is best for you and your children. I think I might seek a therapist to bounce this off of and to help you with making decisions and setting any necessary boundaries.

I wish you peace in dealing with this.

I am his only living relative that will have anything to do with him. The thought of him dying alone is pretty hard to take.

This is a situation he created for himself. I'm afraid if you're the only one willing to be in touch, then everything - potentially good but definitely bad - will fall on you. Are you ready to shoulder all of it? You probably won't get any help or sympathy, and maybe will get criticism, from the others he's abused or offended. Also, consider if you do proceed and then have to step back, how will that make you feel? Will it be kinder to him to not engage than to engage and cut him off again? It's a difficult decision.

As others have written, proceed with great caution if you do proceed. Good luck, I hope you find the best solution for you and your immediate family.

I dont have any advice for you from experience, daisy, but in your position i would think twice and thrice before introducing a toxin like that into my life or to my kids. And as a Christian i would say that his repentance is between him and God. That comes first, before he should even seek your forgiveness----although it doesnt sound as if that's what he is doing.

Lastly, cancer is not always a death sentence. Many forms of cancer are now viewed as chronic, treatable illnesses. (I once was told by an oncologist that if a man lives long enough he will develop prostate cancer, or the beginnings of it.) Don't let a diagnosis, per se, make your decision.

I pinkmountain wrote: " If I get one whiff that stuff is starting, I just say, sorry, I have to
go/leave/end this conversation, whatever. I keep interaction short,
that helps mostly."

Thanks for offering a good, concrete example of what to say and do. Tips like that are truly helpful. Very often, those of us in daisychain's situation are told, "You have to set boundaries." But if you were raised in such a way that there weren't boundaries or you weren't allowed them, then you don't actually know what boundaries are, or where to set them, or how to enforce them. So it's good to have words you can practice with and fall back on when needed.

daisychain, I'm sorry you're going through this. I'm sure it stirs up old cr@p you thought you'd put to sleep and would rather not be disturbed. I'm praying for much, much strength and healing for you. And healing for your father too.

That said, do be protective of yourself. You are the rock for your own family, and you can't let your father undermine that no matter what. He may have needs now, but those needs are not your top priority -- your own family's needs come first.

All of this might settle in a few weeks, and you may find a comfortable perspective on the issue. It may not be the emotional drain you fear it to be. Hoping that is the case for you.

I would definitely seek out an objective third-party, and think that person should be a therapist. I think you may be looking for something from your father, like a long, overdue heartfelt apology, and I don't think you're going to get it. I think that's one of the reasons you're torn. He is still looking after himself, and his inappropriateness in contacting you so quickly to see your children shows to me he does not have your best interests in mind, but his own. You say you're comfortable with your decision. Please take care of yourself, and let a therapist help you sort through what appear to be conflicting feelings.

I have been in your shoes and found phone calls to be the best solution. You can control phone calls a lot better than a face to face. You have to keep yourself good for your own family so limit calls to start at every three weeks or so and proceed from there. You also might not want to go into to much detail about your phone calls with your siblings as It starts the whole hate cycle up all over again and can be very toxic for your personal life (this recently happened to me). Be prepared ahead of time for the "you know I really love you" conversations. Remember that he doesn't really know what love is. Keep your shell vest on, he is a computer with bad wiring. Also be prepared in case he mentions his bad upbringing in a way to excuse his bad parenting or any other excuses. Aside from small talk only allow dialogue where he takes responsibility. Set your own rules. At times you may feel that you are being unfaithful to your siblings pain. Don't feel that! You are not responsible for the mess. The phone calls are for your own head and hopefully some peace of mind. If the peace of mind dosent happen end it.

I am so sorry you are having to deal with this, and I am another who is on your side. I don't have a good answer except don't let yourself be manipulated into thinking you have to go this alone, even though you think you are the only family member he has left. Is he telling you that? Or are you assuming that role?

Keep your guard up and don't do anything that would compromise yourself and what feels right for you, your children and family. Others are right in that a phone call once a week would seem reasonable at this stage. Have you talked with his doctor regarding his prognosis and treatment? I would get more facts before proceeding with any decisions about a future relationship, if you decide to have one at all, or even a limited contact on your terms.

So sorry this is happening.

I have no advice, just hope that whatever you decide you find peace.

ML

That's my dad too. He was abusive to Mom, older brother and me but left my little sister alone. He pretty much ignored her. I think it's because she was the youngest. Are you the youngest?

I left home when I was 16 because of his abuse and had a contentious off and on relationship with him for many years. He was manipulative to the extreme, always coming up with reasons I needed to be in his life. I was the only one who fell for his ploys. He was even so desperate at one point, he gave me medical power of attorney (which he revoked 2 weeks later). I was able to speak with his psychiatrist and he told me that my dad has a "malignant personality disorder" and the best thing to do is stay away from him. That was it for me. It gave me "permission" to finally call it quits and I've never looked back. Dad has Parkinson's and is in a nursing home. I know what city he's in but I don't know what facility. Neither of my siblings do either. Some attorney who's after his veteran's benefits basically takes care of Dad's financial needs.

I have no guilt, no regret. I'm not sure I'll go to his funeral. He'll have a military burial with an honor guard but probably no one will attend.

So here's my question for you: How do you feel when you talk to him? Does your pulse quicken? Do you have a feeling of dread when you see his number/name on your phone? Can you envision your children having quality time with him, learning something from him? Basically, would you be exposing yourself and your children to him for his benefit or for yours?

Magdalena,

You are really lucky (in the context of an otherwise sad and regrettable tale) that the psych was so direct with you. Was that because you had medical POA? I didn't think they were allowed to say anything so direct. Wow, surely made your choices simpler to have those words.

Here's what you have to watch out for. When narcissistic, manipulative people get old and sick, they use health crises (which in some cases are totally real) as leverage to continue to get "narcissistic supply" or whatever else toxic they need. So you have to be really clear about your boundaries. My dad is having a stent put in today and I am going to go see him at the hospital, but I didn't drop everything to take him, stay with him, etc. It was tough, because my natural inclination is to go all out to help others. Just remember, "mama lion eats first" which is the law of the jungle. The mama lion has to have energy for herself, or she will be no good to the cubs. Same with people, fill your own bucket and then you can worry about others.

Daisy, I am so very sorry that you are in this situation. I think you've already received excellent, compassionate advice and I believe you're a reasoned woman who will be able to sort out the right thing to do, and then follow through. I am curious, though, about whether it's possible he may have changed at all in the past ten years. As you haven't had contact with him in that length of time, I wonder if he's still the same person that he was years ago. Do YOU wonder about this, or do you have an inkling at all as to the person he is today? People do change. And of course, people do stay the same - and sometimes become even nastier. I guess what I'm saying is that I would encourage you to have an open mind and an open heart, and to perhaps allow for an opportunity to connect to this man. Forgiveness is so very, very powerful - most importantly for the person who is able to forgive.

(((((Hugs)))))

Yes, people can change. Abusers don't unless they've had some sort of therapy, and even then . . .

Mtn, yes it was because of the POA. I was paraphrasing, the psych put it in a much more clinical way - something like, he can't be cured, he won't get better, you must consider the care-givers well being and safety when deciding upon the course of action, etc. I asked a few questions and the doctor's meaning was apparent.

Daisy, I have been in a similar situation. I decided that my first responsibility was to my family (children, husband, self). I chose to begin with very limited contact; it quickly became apparent that the other person still could not respect boundaries or refrain from venting their poison. I struggled with stopping contact and had to revisit the whole process again.

Forgiveness is a process, and it's separate from reconciliation. It was important to me to forgive, but for me, that did not mean continuing the relationship. This person was mostly protected from consequences; they were denied that opportunity to change.

((((Daisy))))

I feel for you Daisy. It is a hard position to be in. You made the decision to contact him again after all this time. Was it only because you don't want him to be alone when he dies? Even though the thought of dealing with him makes you terribly anxious? I think you need to look deep in yourself and decide if that is enough of a reason to have a relationship with him now.

I found when dealing with older relatives (Who were, thankfully, not like your dad but only very demanding.) that I had to decide "This is what I can do. It is not everything that she wants but it is all that I can do." With that decision came the instruction to myself "I will not feel guilty about this later. I know this is not what relative wants but I am deciding this and will not feel guilty about it." It worked for me but you have to be honest with yourself about what you are capable of. Keep yourself safe, Daisy.

I am so sorry. It is hard when your parent fails to meet what you think a parent should be. My advice would be to take any contact slowly and see just what he is like now. I would certainly insulate my children from him and if I was to allow a meeting it would be in a public place like a restaurant

i never met met my grandfather. I hear he was an abusive drunk. My dad had a horrible childhood. He never seemed to try to connect with me other than in front of others. As an only child he could not spell my name or come with in a few years of my age. It was much the same with his only three grandsons. Comments on how fat they were (they weren't) and if they were playing foot ball. I choose to limit interactions with my sons. It was his loss. But he had no desire to hear about them just lecture about alternative health ideas.

It is funny. When talking about him to the boys now, I still refer to him as my dad not their grandfather. I wish they could have had a functional relationship but it was his pick. We did see them regularly but not on a deeper level . I wish things were different but I have no regrets. I still took care of them and continue with mom. Sometime things just are what they are

I am overwhelmed by the support and advice. Each answer has helped me to sort out my feelings a little bit more. So many of your stories mirror my own experience. I hear loud and clear to put my kids and family first. That is what finally got me to cut things off in the first place - I could see him starting in on them (not physically, but emotionally) and even though I ridiculously put up with it myself, I couldn't chance it happening to them.

It is such a wicked cycle - he was damaged by abuse, my brother and sister were damaged by his abuse. I'm not a perfect parent, but I've strived very hard to give my girls a stable and loving home. I've never told them about my upbringing, but I constantly tell them how wonderful their dad is and how lucky they are to have him. It almost makes me cry to think about what a great relationship they have with their dad.

Thanks again for all the support and caring advice.

I don't have that kind of person in my life, but I lost both of my parents not long ago. I think your guiding principle has to be "no regrets." But don't make promises you can't keep -- even to yourself. Situations change and regrets sneek in where you least expect them, so be prepare to tell yourself that you made decisions for good and important reasons and did the best you could.

Make your choices deliberately and consider both yourself and your children. Make sure they are okay with not having a relationship or not knowing their grandfather -- and I'm not suggesting that they won't be if you talk to them about why you've kept your distance.

If you chose to see him again, I would not bring the children into it until you feel comfortable, if ever. So maybe you see him again, learn more about his medical situation (insist on getting him to sign a release so his doctors can talk with you and you can get it from the horse's mouth if that's appropriate), and do set limits. Only go to him or meet in a neutral place so you can leave when you are ready, leave when you are ready, and set time limits for yourself. Have someone call to say you are needed so you have an excuse to go if needed. If you think he will be asking for money, a place to live, or other care or support for his end of life, consider what you are and aren't willing to do now. Make a contract with you family if you need to. If things don't go well, pull the plug.

I'm an optimist by nature. I tend to give folks a chance -- but I also believe you will be the best judge of whether your dad will make peace or renew a past you need to keep in the past. Talk it out, write it all down, revisit what you wrote. Take everything anyone else says with a grain of salt and find the answers that are right for you. Take care of you and your children. Make YOUR peace.

Wondering how this is going. I'm having terrible trouble keeping my boundaries with my dad as he ages. On the one hand, I don't want to be totally mean and uncaring, on the other hand, he can be super nice and you would never guess the cruelty that lies beneath, he's a Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde type of person. Dr. Jekyll can be around for days, weeks, even a month or more. Then, on a dime, Mr. Hyde shows up! He actually doesn't even remember sometimes I think when he is one person or the other. He has no memory of how horrible he has been when he's playing Dr. Jekyll, nor does he seem to remember anything good or nice when he is being Mr. Hyde. Then on the other hand, I need to keep those boundaries going because Mr. Hyde showing up is inevitable. That's the sad thing about someone with a pathological personality. They can never really change for good. They just aren't wired the same way as empathetic people. They can act empathetic and sympathetic, they can be charming. But it is for manipulation to get their needs met. They can't ever get used to considering other people's needs and feelings as equal to or above theirs. Most of the time they are barely aware of anything about anyone other than their self. So I would do the minimum and not sweat keeping those boundaries. As the old saying goes, "Ex is ex for a reason" and same goes for boundaries with pathological people. Wish as hard as you will that things could be different, but they just can't. This is the cross people have to bear who have people like this in their family and life. The hardest thing is the guilt other people try to lay on you because the person can seem sympathetic and charming, so they think you are being the mean one. So many people hold out hope that people can change, and some people can change, absolutely and I am a firm believer on people's ability to change. But sometimes you have to realize that there are just certain people who cannot. Being able to distinguish between those who can and those who can't is pretty important. Show compassion to those who can't, but keep iron clad boundaries between their dysfunctional lives and your own. Think of how many people who have had to watch as a loved ones sinks into addiction, madness and death and have tried and tried to intervene to no avail. So some people really can suffer and suffer from their own self-imposed hells and yet never let go of the dysfunctional behavior.

Sorry to hear about your situation pink mountain. I'm really finding that I have so much else going on that I haven't had to deal with him too much. I think what is making it okay for me is that I did cut him out for so long. I feel I am able to keep more perspective. My dad sounds similar to yours. Extremely charming, but also extremely manipulative. I always felt like I was waiting for a bomb to go off. I realize now that all the time I spent with him was out of guilt and fear. Which is actually more sad for him than me.

My advice would be to not get drawn in and to adjust your expectations. Don't expect him to be an empathetic loving father. He may not be capable. If you aren't expecting it from him, you won't be (as) disappointed when the bad happens. And when the bad does happen, just turn and walk away.

Good luck. I know it's not easy.

Yup, that's it exactly, that's what I do and that's what's going on on my end. My dad is really old. I think sometimes his neighbors and some family friends cannot figure out why I am so cold towards this poor charming old man . . . but they haven't had to try and work anything out with him. If I pop in to check on him and make sure nothing too terrible is going on with him, that's about all I can do. He'll swear up and down to anyone who asks that he can't fathom why I am this way since he has nothing but deep care and concern from me and only wants me to be happy. . . I know he believes this because he blocks out anything that shows him in a less than perfect light and although he can mouth those words, he has no real idea whether I am happy or not, he can't perceive other's feelings. Anyway, I've learned how to deal with my family long ago--expect nothing, share nothing, minimal superficial contact. I have years of experience trying something different and I know for sure nothing else works. Yes, I am sad for him because I know he doesn't want to live like this but can't change, even if he wanted to. He just doesn't see what is going on since he cannot understand anyone else's experiences with him outside of his own self-absorbed mind.

If he has really changed, then he will accept and honor what you choose to give without asking for more.

You can send him cards, photos, letters-- if you choose.

You can call-- if you choose.

You can visit-- if you choose.

This is not a time for guilt or obligation. I see it, instead, as an opportunity for you to make peace with the relationship in that it is 100% on your terms.

He's already taken part of your childhood. It's OK if you feel you've already given enough-- because you absolutely have.

Pink mountain, another thing that helps me to deal with him is to remember where he is coming from. My grandfather was an abusive alcoholic who died on my dad's 12th birthday. His mom was a strong but cold woman trying to keep 8 kids fed on her own. She did things like force him to drown his pets. Doesn't excuse it, but gives me a bit of empathy and helps put things into perspective.

Sounds like they are very much alike. I do get where he is coming from. My dad had the father from hell (and I don't like to swear!) and tough upbringing during the Depression. My grandmother was a very nice person, a sweet, decent soul, but had to be a steely person to keep her family of six kids together under very difficult circumstances with my grandfather's baggage (which I won't go into but it was bad) and the wrong side of the tracks they grew up on. Similar stories, like how their dad killed their sick puppy because they couldn't afford to go to the vet. A harsh, negative environment. They all turned out successful, married, nice homes, good careers, well respected in the community. But very, very messed up emotionally. Many of the kids have gone into helping professions, because we get how tough life can be and how it can beat you down. But it also makes you not naive.

Ruining your sister's brother's and mother's life would be enough for me. I'm glad you escaped the worst of it but still watching him abuse the rest of the family wasn't good for you. Sorry but he had the chance to be good and threw it away. My friend had an abusive father who was not good at all for her kids. Whatever she thought she was doing for them by letting grandpa visit wasn't worth exposing them to his toxic personality. I agree phone calls only and don't let him destroy the peace you managed to find.You don't have to feel guilty. It's not you fault he is the way he is but don't go back to the disfunction and abuse you were able to leave behind. You can forgive in your heart without getting drawn back in.

I have no advice to give, just know that you have my support and are in my thoughts and prayers. I admire you greatly.

I have a similar situation. I had one question to ask myself and that was "Would they (family member) be nice, or continue to hurt me and my family?" Since they are not capable of being nice I choose to stay away. I feel guilty. But I think of them as a bear in a foot trap. I would love to get close enough to free them from their trap, but once I do I will get mauled. So I choose to stay intact.