Well, maybe if you went with that contractor it would take too big a bite out of the budget. I would keep looking until you are completely happy, in the meantime you're saving up additional funds anyway.

Did he explain to you which of the existing walls are loadbearing? Removing a non-bearing wall is just not that big a deal and shouldn't cost that much, but the wall, floor and ceiling will need to be patched following the removal. Removing a loadbearing wall is a different proposition entirely. If he did not make that distinction he didn't do his homework and is just trying to scare you off for whatever reason he just doesn't want to do that work and you really should find someone else.

The issue here is that the minute you "go into the wall" you may find almost any kind of problem, and you won't know until you open the wall up. It sounds like your guy just did not want to open up any walls.

Have you seen Carrie B s rowhouse remodel on this website? It is coming out very nice. She was very concerned about what they might find in the demolition. Read through her threads and you will see that they found that the upstairs shower was on its last legs and that it was merely a matter of time before it crashed through to the floor below. So fixing that shower pan and retiling the shower walls was inconvenient, probably a thousand plus extra dollars that she had to spend and probably resulted in some kind of delay also.

if you end up finding out that they are not loadbearing walls and that you have to move the plumbing anyway, you may want to move the toilet to a more desirable location and give yourself the big windows on that end wall.

I do like Benjesbride's solution.

Someone else mentioned Carrie B's thread, and I've been enjoying it!

On the PR ... I'm not experienced, so maybe I don't know what I am looking at, but I suspect that only the "outside" and "party" walls are load bearing, and the walls that are only on the interior are just partitions recently added. I doubt they are hard to remove. I suspect the previous home owner put them in. Actually I think he put in this powder room just to improve the house before selling it. (Irony alert?)

I guess what worries me is that I'm reasonably sure we can figure out how to knock down walls, but between putting in a new window, moving the back door, redoing the electrical work (it is inside the partition walls), moving plumbing around, constructing new walls, and redoing the floor, we might have a pretty big project to finish before even touching the kitchen.

I do want to take the time and money necessary to get a nice result for the project, and time is on our side - we *can* draw this out if we choose. However, it's to our benefit not to make it more complex or expensive than it needs to be. The current kitchen is a daily irritant and would make the house difficult to sell. So it'd be good to find a goalpost I can hit on a first project without a huge reno budget. I need to find a good balance

Does the approach I posted strike a balance between ambition and practicality, or do you think it'd be a mistake?

Historian - nice to see another row on here!

I do wish I had a powder room somewhere on the first floor. I'm pretty sure my row is significantly smaller than yours - about 12x25' footprint - so it would be really hard to fit in.

I've not had anything good to add, but I am following this thread with interest.

Are you planning on selling soon? Or is that just a "maybe someday in the future" precaution?

After 32 years of remodeling something, whether my own home or rentals, I'm a firm believer in doing it right when it comes to layout/floorplan issues. Of course, most of us also have budget limitations which must be weighed into decision-making. I think benjesbride's ideas are superior to your plan in many ways and Carrie B's thread with that lovely window/door/transom wall clearly illustrates the wonderful improvement changing that powder room would make in your space.

I would get further quotes. I would get a quote with your plan and with benjesbride's plan. Any project can easily go 10-20% higher in cost due to unforeseen circumstances so plan for that.

Personally, I wouldn't hesitate on spending the extra to go with benjesbride's plan. I would hold off on any new appliances, live with plywood countertops for a year or two, go with cheap pulls until I could afford my dream pulls, and other temporary compromises to make it work.

The only time I would not suggest spending the extra for something that would make such a huge improvement is if the home is in a real estate market that can't support it. However, most often this applies to things like huge additions or expensive finishes like marble counters in a market that only supports laminate or Sub-Zeros where the market can only bear low-to-mid range appliances. I think that window wall and opening up the space can only be a plus.

Hmm. Lots to chew on here. There's nothing stopping me from at least getting the modification priced and seeing where we stand.

We are not planning to sell immanently; so far as I am concerned right now, we'll be raising our kids here. Thinking about future buyers and what happens if we suddenly *have* to sell is just a self-protective exercise. My bigger and more personal concern is just balancing family priorities.

Questions -

(1) Would the imposing powder room wall be any less grating if, rather than trying to keep the lefthand set of cabinets / counters as shallow as possible, we actually made them deeper?

(2) Supposing that we are "stuck" with the current room shape, what do you think of layout?

(3) Do you consider the biggest problem the shape of the powder room, or is it actually the presence of the washer / dryer so close to the other kitchen elements?

Historian - would you post a photo of your actual space, looking back? It's hard for me to get a good visual sense of just how imposing the PR is - and it does look pretty imposing on the layouts. Plus, rowhomes tend to be pretty dark and narrow, at least, mine used to be. Opening up the back has transformed my entire first floor. I'm thinking that modifying your back could make an enormous difference in the quality of your visual enjoyment of your home. Have you seen my before/after shots? I can post one here.

ps: is anyone else unable to read the dimensions on any of these layouts?

Hm, maybe I should upload those again and write the numbers out in pen. They do display very small.

If it helps, I can tell you that the distance between the entry to the kitchen and that powder room wall is 157".

The items I dropped into the Ikea plan (Plan 1) are:

Left Wall [PR Side]: 2"/25"Fridge/24"Cab/24"sink cab/24"DW Cab/25" Washer/25" Dryer/7".

Right wall: 2"/24"Cab/24"Cab/24"Cab/30"Range/18" Cab.

Plan 2, Bottom cabinet dimensions are:

Left wall [PR side]: 2"/25"Fridge/24"Cab/24"Sink Cab/24"DW Cab/18" Pantry/25" Stacked w/d.

Right wall: Identical to plan 1

Thanks. It might be really helpful to post another layout with the dimensions large and/or dark. Any maybe accompanying photos.

Carrie, I found your photos yesterday. It really is impressive so far! I can't wait to see how the project plays out.

We put in a new back door this week ... (irony alert, here I am discussing moving it even as the dust settles) ... that is basically one big pane of glass, and even that - relatively minor though it is - makes a pretty striking difference.

It makes the thought of the skylight I mentioned even more tempting.

And the thought of your view in Philly downright exhilarating.

I can take a photo later of the view toward the PR. What you'll actually see is the (equally large) wall of the W/D closet. That wall is around 30" closer than the PR wall would be, once exposed. Eliminating that closet should help, at least a little bit.

Here are two of the pictures with clearer measurements. Hopefully this is helpful.

Right hand (long) wall, 223" long from entrance to back door:

Left hand wall (PR side of the 'tunnel'), 157" from entrance to PR wall. This the plan with longer counters.

Here are two photos of our space (taken by a contractor, that were later sent to me to ask a question).

The first gives one an idea of that how the kitchen looks now on a typical / chaotic day. Note that the W/D closet in the kitchen, located about 124" from the entrance.

When we destroy that closet / cubby, the remaining wall - the powder room wall - will be about 33" further away.

For good measure, if you turn around, here's the dining area:

Thank you. That is helpful, and an overhead view probably even more so. I'm not a layout expert, just following along because I find it interesting.

A few small details, though, to come after major layout plan is set: first is that a 24" sink cabinet is pretty small. I don't know what the maximum size sink is that you can get in a 24" cab, but I think you'll be happier with a bigger sink.

Second is that you have a lot of 24" cabinets. I'd think that I would want to have more variety for two reasons: 1) you'll have different storage needs for different items. Some things you'll want a bigger cabinet so you can fit all, say, bowls, or breakfast items or whatever in one cabinet, or on one shelf. Other items you might just want a small shelf for: maybe coffee mugs you'll want on one shelf, and that would only need to be 15" (or whatever.)

The other reason you may want to vary shelf size is just for ease of finding - and describing - stuff. So, instead of saying "wine glasses are on the right hand side of the second 24" cabinet on the left side" you could just say "wine glasses are in the smallest cabinet on the left" or "ice cream bowls are in the biggest cabinet on the right."

Oh, our posts crossed. Thanks for the photos! I That area to the right of your kitchen, outside - just a narrow area for trash cans/AC unit, etc? Wasted space? Lots of places in Philly have that kind of thing. At least it allows you to have windows on the side.

I think having a PR on the first floor is a good thing (wish I had a place for one) but I'd really want to make it as small as possible. Nearby friends of mine have one with a tiny corner sink and a toilet and you just barely have room to sit when you're inside. I think that would make sense for you, if it's feasible.

To be honest, I keep looking at your plan of the whole floor to see if any place else makes sense for the powder room. Can it be squeezed under the stairs? Is there enough height? Probably not. And there is also something good to be said about a bathroom so close to outside. If the kids are playing outside or you're gardening, it's nice to not track dirt through the house to use the facilities.

I would so love to give you an open back-wall like Carrie B has because it's luscious but that probably isn't going to happen.

I would love to see you move your laundry upstairs to be closer to the bedrooms. It's so nice to not have to carry baskets of laundry up/down the stairs. Have you shared a plan of your second floor to see if this is possible? If not, the proximity of W/D to the kitchen doesn't bother me in the least. I don't think you need the bulk of a stacked unit though.

Here are your plans and benjesbride's plan.

Simply moving the range with the hood to the left, as benjesbride did, really opens things up. But look how making that bathroom wall narrower also opens it up.

Yes, if you made the left wall of cabinets deeper, it would make the bathroom jutting out into the space less obvious and bulky. But then you need to watch your aisle width. How wide is it? 48" is the minimum suggested for multiple workers but I think a corridor kitchen should be in the 54-60" range.

Really, with the windows on the sink wall, the window at the end of the counter run, and then the glass door, this is a super-close second to Carrie's double-door/transom wall. In fact, you could even put a transom that would run across both the single door and window and the impact of that wall would be even greater. Just think how ho-hum Carrie's would be without the transom. So, add a transom. I command thee, LOL.

ETA: Love your dining room. Great lighting and do I spy a curved staircase with curved rail? Oh, MY! Very nice.

Carrie: Good points. We should play around with the cabinet sizes. I think I need to dump everything on the floor and try to envision where it would go and in what size drawer. If we can fit it in, I agree that it wouldn't hurt to bump up the sink size.

Funkycamper: Until you reach the PR area, the kitchen is 8'1" wide, so with 25" counters, the isle would be about 46".

Glad the dining room is shaping up. :) Sadly, the stairs in the dining room are not curved. It think it looks like that in the photo, because the measuring application used to take the picture bends the image slightly. The stair climbs straight, then makes a sharp turn as you approach the next floor, then does this again as you approach floor 3. There are rowhouses in Baltimore that have this feature originally, I think, but ours is an old mill area, so that architecture is straight forward.

Interesting point on the range hood - I guess if I traded the positions of the range and sink, the space would open up more in my rendering.

If we want a PR on the first floor, I think we're stuck keeping it where it is. There's really no extra space in the living room or dining rooms, and the space behind the first floor stair (where that wood door is in the DR photo) is the only means of reaching the basement. I have entertained fantasies of dispensing with it entirely, and dropping from 1.5 beds to 1, but then the thing happened everyone told me would happen: I had a guest who got injured and couldn't manage our stairs for two days. Lesson learned. We'll work around it.

If the main concern is letting in light, we have some options besides or in addition to moving the powder room or narrowing it - there's no second floor over the kitchen, so we can add skylight(s); we have a daylight alley running alongside the kitchen, making it possible to add a window; and I suppose there's that slice of wall to the right of the door, although it might be too narrow to provide much service. There probably isn't sufficient space for a transom window over the door - I couldn't add this detail to the rendering, but about 6' forward of the backdoor, the ceiling height falls, so there's not as much space above the back door as the rendering suggests. Here's a pick showing how we're doing on light now - and the sizes of things:

(in person it's a little brighter, my cell can't deal with the extreme disparity between outside sun and inside ambient light)

Of course, this just discussing light. One big advantage of narrowing the PR is the potential to run the counters straight back to the back door, which would no doubt make the room feel larger and more unified.

I have thought about installing narrow cabinets below that window, right of the back door, angling back the kitchen counter, and running it back along the wall. I have no idea if that is a good idea, however, and it may not deliver the same benefits.

If you need a lot of storage, your space is certainly tight, but you could put in cabinets that will hold the width of one large can. I had a wall of this in a condo and it was extremely useful but it had to be custom built. It consisted of very narrow shelves with decorative doors with special thought to the door handles so that you didn't bang yourself on them all the time. The great thing about that storage space was that nothing ever got lost at the back because there was no back to get lost in…

I'm not sure if this helps, but here is photo illustrates just how much brighter the back of the kitchen is now, with the new door, compared to the section with one window. This tempts me to put a skylight in the forward portion.

I'm not a fan of most skylights, but I think if it faces north to capture indirect light that would be okay. I'd still get multiple bids on changing the powder room before letting it go. Once you renovate you'll never have another (easy) chance to capture that extra width at the back of the house.

Even if the stairs aren't curved, your dining room is lovely.

Skylights would be great but no matter how many windows and skylights you add for natural light, a hood on the window wall ruins the effect, imho. I hope whatever final layout you decide on will keep the range/hood and fridge to the left side.

If your aisles will only be 46", I would not put deeper counters in. You really can't afford to lose a smidgen of aisle width.

If narrowing the powder room just won't work for you, you will need to keep the W/D where you have them placed. (Unless we can convince you to move them upstairs, lol).

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Alternatively, you could do upper cabinets and something like this

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I think this next one would be better for your space. You would have a bit less upper storage but you would gain more light and airiness. I think it's a perfect compromise between having upper storage AND having windows/light/airiness in your narrow space. You could actually put an open shelf across the window as well.

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Personally, I think you would benefit more from having as many windows as possible vs. the skylights. Yes, you need more light in the room to make it feel more spacious but you also need the longer sight lines that windows give you (but skylights don't).

And I would put glass doors with interior lighting in as many of your uppers as you can spare. This will also help with the light and the airiness I would love you to have.

Also, you might look into solar tubes vs. skylights. People report a lot of satisfaction with them. I think they might be less inclined to have leaking issues as well.

I love industrial SS hoods. I have one in my own kitchen. But I think your space would benefit from a hidden hood. It will keep the left wall less bulky looking and more streamlined. This will also make the space feel a tad bit bigger.

I realize most of the design photos I'm showing you are quite modern. And I'm not sure if you're going for that or something more traditional/transitional. All of the ideas in both my above post and this one would look good with more traditional cabinetry.

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I like the long windows. Since we already have a one double-hung window that is a recent addition, maybe we could look into installing another window or two that work with it. Perhaps we could get a similar effect by placing them next to one another:

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Sticking with tall windows would work OK, because I'm disinclined to include upper cabinets on the long wall. I think having uppers on both sides would close the space in more than we'd want. My husband would go further than this, and eliminate uppers entirely on both sides. He likes open storage.

We included the range hood because it is pictured so often. I'll review that idea, and play with some layouts that move the range to the short wall. Is it necessary to vent to the outside?

Oh, I was only suggesting the various options if you want and/or need storage on the window wall. If you don't, FANTASTIC!!! I think you should keep things as open as possible. Only uppers on the fridge/range/W/D wall. Again, FANTASTIC!!!

Regarding venting the hood. That's an issue with putting the range on the inside wall. There are ways to vent it outside even from there. Recirculating fans are never a good idea.

How high is your ceiling?

Historian - didn't you say that the kitchen is a one-story addition? If that's the case, can't the range be vented right out the ceiling/roof?

The ceiling in that section of the kitchen is a little more than 8 feet. I think 98 inches, but I'd have to remeasure to be sure.

I guess to vent outside, I'd need to run something through the ceiling? ... Oh, just saw Carrie's post. Right. There's no second floor. So we go straight up ....

Oh, I forgot it was a one story. Yes, Carrie B! Yes, you go straight up. Easy-peasy.

Phew, that's so much easier than what I was thinking you would have to do, cheaper, and it will mean the hood can work well without long ductwork and lots of turns.

Is your range currently vented?

No, there's no vent installed right now.

Can you open up your stairwell at all? Probably not to the extent or style of these examples (too expensive?), but even removing some of the wall would let more light into kitchen from the front of the house.

Another example

I was wondering that myself. Here is a side-by-side comparison (terrible photoshop) of how that would make the dining room feel more open and light.

I am also wondering if the dining room window could be swapped for a door like the one you just added to your kitchen -- one with a big pane of glass to let in the maximum amount of light into the dining room.

Adding a door there would have two great benefits:

1) More natural light in the dining room.

2) The ability to get to the back of the house without going through the kitchen.

I don't know how wide the existing dining room window is, but if it's not wide enough to be a door, I wonder how much it would cost to change that corner a little bit so that a door could be placed on the diagonal like this:

However, if it's not a crazy undertaking, it would be a small gain in square footage that provides some actual space between the kitchen and dining for people entering/exiting to be in without being right up against the dining room table. Like a back foyer. Is the shaded-in box to the left of the dining room table in the above image a closet/cabinet? If it is, mudroom-type stuff could go in there upon entry into the home through the hypothetical back foyer.

In your position, with $24,000 to spend right now, I would immediately take a chunk of that money and move the washer and dryer upstairs. That is an immediate, huge functionality upgrade to your home, and it ordinarily costs $2,000 ish to do that. Even if in your house because it's old and may have some funky situations in the walls, say that move costs $5,000. That still really isn't very much compared to a lifetime of laundry ease. Especially with little kids and how much laundry they generate. Plus you get all that space back in your kitchen. Plus laundry upstairs is always a major selling feature.

There are just so many levels of positive for that relative modest financial investment (considering the cost of most home improvements) -- it's just a lot of bang for your buck, and to me, that makes it a no-brainer.

On the kitchen front, having the washer and dryer out of the way means you will be able to see truly if having the bulk of the stacked washer and dryer removed makes a big enough difference that the powder room in its current configuration doesn't seem like such an enormous, jutting thing into the kitchen. It sounds as if you are quite hopeful that that will be the case, and this would be your chance to see that for real.

Since you cannot redo everything in the kitchen at once with your current funds (especially with adding/changing windows and stuff), and you definitely can't do it after spending $5,000 to move the laundry, after moving the laundry, I would spend a very small amount on a few temporary, immediate upgrades to the kitchen to make it less of a daily annoyance.

These might include:

1) Replacing the most annoying current appliances (to reuse later in the final kitchen).

2) Replacing the faucet (to reuse later in the final kitchen) if the current one is terrible.

3) Rearranging things slightly using the space recently vacated by the washer/dryer. I'd slide the fridge over to where the washer and dryer were. Depending on your priorities, this means you could:

a) Move the range to where the fridge was and fill in the gaps created with cheap drawers base cabinets & butcher block counters from IKEA. Like so:

That would mean you gain drawers (generally awesome storage), better locations for counter (on BOTH sides of the sink! between the sink and range!), and ease of unloading the dishwasher (directly into your new drawers to the left of the sink). That'd cost a few hundred dollars and make your kitchen A LOT more functional immediately. Perhaps so much less annoying that you can stand it more easily while you plan/save at your leisure. Here is a blog post where someone did something similar in a rental kitchen: http://manhattan-nest.com/2011/10/10/lets-talk-about-the-kitchen/

b) Or you could still move the fridge over to where the washer and dryer were, but leave the range in place and just do this:

Again, these are just in the interest of making your kitchen liveable and less of daily frustration while you plan/save for a full gut job with structural changes. For someone who can save more and isn't in danger of overspending for the home/area and who wants to be in the home for a long time, you should be looking to install exactly the kitchen you want to have long term, not just whatever you can afford now because you can't stand your current kitchen one second longer.

Get the laundry out of there, decide then if the powder room is going to change, spend a few hundred on a temporary measures to make the current kitchen less of major annoyance in the meantime, and plan and save for the kitchen you are truly going to want and be happy with for years and years.

Jillius, great advice, as always.

I only offer a small tweak of the bathroom in the last plan. I would rather see a few more feet in the dining room than the small hallway. I understand your reason for it...i.e., people leaving bathroom doors open to expose the toilet to passers-by...but how about this with an automatic door-closing hinge thingie?

Interesting ideas, Jillius. I’ll have to spend some
time with the points you’ve brought up.

Trying to find new ways to use the alley might be
problematic. The problem with installing a second back door at its rear is that
the alley is long and narrow, making the approach to the door and its operation
awkward. (A secondary issue is that the fan / condenser unit running our
central air system is sitting in this location, and it’s the most discrete and
efficient location for “the box” to live.)

Likewise, I don’t know if it’s permissible to build
a bump out that eats part of the daylight alley. My alley and my neighbor’s
alley run side by side. That is a common layout. The logic of it, I assume, is
to allow more light into both alleys, to reach whatever windows are there. So if
one neighbor closes off their alley for several feet, the decision has a
negatively impact on the neighboring house. So you’d think there’d be restrictions,
but I have no idea what they are. The overall cost of this project
is also an obstacle.

Obstacles aside, the ideas that have been laid out
present an interesting question: Is it more valuable shift the PR to the center
of the house, in order to open up the flow of space at the back of the addition,
or is it more valuable to leave open the possibility of creating more open
space between the living and dining areas? I’d have to think about it, but we
might get the most benefit from working the existing kitchen dimensions –
ignore the PR and alley - and instead open up the space between the living /
dining / kitchen areas. This would also break down into two freestanding
projects: the kitchen project and the stairs project.

The trend in few the total renovations I’ve seen here in Baltimore has
been to remove as many interior partitions as possible on the first floor and
minimize the stairs. Opening up the space would be quite dramatic.

Funky, my reason for the hallway was both bathroom privacy and to leave access to the door under the staircase (which I assume goes to the basement). Also to not have any solid walls against the current open banister, so the stairs don't feel closed in. If it had only been for bathroom privacy, then I would totally agree with you that the hallway was overkill and kind of a waste of space. But it's doing three things, so I think it's earning its keep.

Historian, to me, it is most valuable to open up the area with the most and best opportunity for windows. That is the back, rather than the middle. Also, l like that the living room is a bit separate now. I'm throwing out any and all ideas as I think of them because I don't know as well as you do what works for you and yours, but if I lived here, I would leave the living room as-is. I like to be able to escape my family at times. Also, kitchens are loud, and TVs are loud, and it's nice to have them separate and not competing as much. (But certainly, opening up the stair wall would making the dining room brighter and feel larger, so it would be a valid design choice if that matters more to you than the separation.)

More than that, I'm still stuck on the powder room. There is something fundamentally galling about designing around and losing prime exterior wall with the prettiest views to a bulky, ill-fitting item that you don't actually use because its location is so awkward! In your situation, I'd either lose the powder room (cheapest, easiest option) or move it to a location where my family and I would actually use it and benefit daily from its presence on the first floor (most expensive option). I definitely don't believe in improvements or limitations to improvements that only suit future
hypothetical buyers, ESPECIALLY ones that are years and years away from being a reality. It all has to work for you too, on a daily or frequent basis, or it's essentially
gambling with a fair amount of your money and your comfort/preferences
for years. There is no guarantee you'll get your investment back when
you sell many years from now, and then look what you've sacrificed in
the meantime.

On the other hand, lose or move the bathroom, and you will definitely enjoy a better kitchen and nice views and natural light every day for years. No question. No gamble. Is it worth losing that for a maybe situation years in the future? Or for the one time every few years when someone has mobility issues in your home?

Did you pay more for this house than you would have otherwise because it had this half bath in the kitchen? If not, then you're not actually out any money. The previous owner spent his money to install the bathroom and didn't get it back at sale. You have no sunk cost in this bathroom. Also, the fact that you didn't buy the home or pay more because of the
half bath is fine proof that the bathroom in that location isn't adding
particular value to the home. The previous owner lost that gamble.

Also, if the previous owner had not spent his money installing this bathroom, would you even be looking at installing a half bath in this home on this floor? Or would you have decided there was no logical place for one without major structural changes and just have lived in this home without a half bath and enjoyed the pretty views out the back after you remodeled the kitchen?

I'd move the laundry upstairs, do some stop gap measures in the kitchen to make it less of an annoyance for now and leave it and the bathroom for the potty training years, then remove the bathroom altogether and install the kitchen and windows I really want and enjoy them both for many years after that. You'll spend the least and get to enjoy a home that works for your family the most, and whenever you sell down the road, you'll just be one of the many row homes that doesn't have a half bath on the main floor. Your buyers will deal.

Historian, I think what you said in your last post makes good sense for your home. You have a PR that works for you and since you do not have an unlimited budget, why add that to the scope of work? I apologize if I missed it somewhere that you do not use it. My brother lives in a four story row and I can't imagine having guests traipse upstairs (especially kids) to use the potty. Adding additional kitchen windows and eventually opening up the stairwell wall will create new site lines. And adding sky lights will flood your space with natural light. I think you have some solid goals now with a two phase plan. You can change how you use the PR wall that is so visible, possibly more narrow cabinetry and either shelving or glass uppers. Or artwork, or a chalkboard. Yes, opening it up would be very pretty, but doesn't seem practical for you and your budget.

Who installed the new door and window? The same contractor that is supplying your quote? One thing I'd do before continuing with your plan, is see what it would cost to run your plumbing to the outside wall. Is there access to the plumbing from the floor below? Are you replacing the kitchen flooring? While your at it, get quotes for relocating the laundry if that is something you really want and have space for upstairs. This will help you make informed decisions based on fact and narrow down your focus. You really need to know your structural parameters and budget before determining your floor plan.

BTW, I have IKEA Lindigo white (Sektion Bodbyn equivalent ) and two sky lights and love them.

Thanks for the bathroom hall explanation, Jillius. I totally spaced out on the basement stairs.

Historian, I think you have a lot to mull and consider. I agree with a lot of what Jillius is saying. I would rather do something in stages and do it right but your own preferences, lifestyle and budget should determine your final choice.

Some of us spend months, and a few here have spent years, defining what will work best for them. So I hope you'll take a bit of time to ponder your options and define what your greatest needs and wants are before jumping into something.

The powder room question is a bit of a stinker. We've woven back and forth on it for several months and finally fell on the side of keeping it. On one hand, we feel that we under-use the room, and we could really up the "wow" factor on the first floor by removing it. On the other hand, we have also admitted that it does have current and future utility, and we feel like that we should be exceedingly reluctant to spend money to remove a functioning bathroom from a 1.5 bath house with enough bedrooms to accommodate a family. It's both a shame to eliminate it, and a shame to leave it in place, but for entirely different reasons.

An idea occurred to me while musing over the suggestions that have been made. What do you think of this as an approach?

Suppose that we leave the PR in place, and build the kitchen around it. This eliminates all the outstanding repair issues the house has (all are in the addition) and fixes our frustration over the kitchen. We don't reclaim the back view we might have had, but we can address light issues with some combination of improved lighting, side windows, and skylights. I think we could also minimize the offense of the wall the "sticks out" by decorating it - maybe we put something of visual interest on the wall, or perhaps we use it to hang some pots:

Here's a rendering I made while playing around, which incorporates some of the smaller modifications suggested - move the sink to the long wall; consider a larger sink; vary the size of the cabinets; conceal the vent.

Another project might be re-configuring the layout on an upper floor to accommodate an second bath. Perhaps when that is done, we decide the powder room is no longer as needed. Or maybe, once we know our final family size and the kid(s) are older, we can drop back to a single bath.

When/if we're ready to nix the PR, rather than redo the entire kitchen, we could remove the PR, and repurpose the now-open space to create an eat-in kitchen. Here's roughly what we'd have, if we removed the PR and touched nothing else - the back door and PR window are in the same place.

BBtrix:

Re: Who installed
the new door and window? – Not the same contractor. We went to a window company
and ordered the job. We had been planning to replace these elements at the same
time as we run with the kitchen project, but in consequence we were letting repair
issues with them sit. We felt safer resolving them. We can wait everything else, but I think we need to replace our drywall ceiling this fall, as well.

Re: Quotes – Yes, even if we wait a while on most of the
project, I’m hoping that getting some quotes on a floorplan we like will help
us decide on what is reasonable for us. It should also give a better handle on the a timeline, if
I know how much we can do now, how much we are short, etc.

Re: Is there access to the plumbing from the floor below? – Yes,
the addition is sitting on top of a crawlspace. The crawlspace can be easily
accessed from the almost full-height basement underneath the main house.

Re: Are you replacing the kitchen flooring? –
No, I want to keep that a freestanding, future project. Unless it has to be
replaced at the same time.

Re: IKEA Lindigo white –
I’m encouraged to hear that you are still happy with your cabinets and doors. I
take it that the doors are holding up well? Among the budget cabinets I’ve
seen, I really prefer some of the styling and colors Ikea offers. We really
liked the Bodbyn gray and Grimslov brown cabinets the last time we were stuffed
with Swedish meatballs and free coffee. (The white counterparts were intriguing
as well.)

Everything is holding up well and they are very easy to clean, even the glass cabs by the range.

Another idea for the protruding wall: really narrow shelves?

Totally open back wall and skylights

Bbtrix, your kitchen looks great! I can see why you like the skylights so much.

Yeah, I'm a little hesitant about having cut the pantry out of the plan with my counter. I was musing about using whatever narrow cabinets or shelves we set by the back door, but that's less handy.

Another way to come at it would be to keep the w/d unstacked, set the pantry next to the frig, and allow the appliances to sit side-by-side. I'm having a hard time visualizing if that looks OK, or if it's a little clunky not to have cabinets breaking them up.

Kiktx, good idea on the super narrow shelves. That might also be a trick for us to try in the narrow areas near the back door.

With kids in the future, I would advocate for keeping a main floor powder room. With my oldest, he screamed and cried if I left him on the first floor while I went upstairs to use the bathroom. So I carried him up and down the stairs every time I needed to use the bathroom for over a year. Then comes potty training. And both of my kids went through a five seconds warning until I pee everywhere stage. And then both of them have gone through stages of not wanting to go to the bathroom far away from the other people--I am scared, I want company. All told those phases have added up to many years of a bathroom on the first floor being a huge, huge convenience.

And the kids and their friends can easily access the PR from the back yard when playing!

I definitely prefer the pantry next to the fridge. It would be a good exercise at this point to determine where you would store your items. I have all of my Tupperware and glass casseroles in a 36 inch drawer stack, all my pots and pans in another 36 stack and dishes and serving plates in a 30 inch stack. Either WD configuration can look good, especially if you incorporate doors into the design, but I would be more concerned with storage loss. You can have a 36" base if you have them unstacked and two 30" if you stack.

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I don't have any new ideas to add but I really like the plan bbtrix has posted, especially the one with the stacked W/D giving you more pantry space. I, too, would hesitate to get rid of the first floor powder room for all the reasons stated plus, when the kids are playing outside, especially if they have several friends over, they don't need to run through the house carrying dirt to the second floor to use the bathroom. It makes a difference in how clean your house stays, believe me. My kids were about five and seven when we added a powder room right inside our back door and it made a big, noticeable difference on dirt tracked in.

I would still like to see you reconfigure that backdoor so it is narrower. While you're getting quotes, I still think you should get quotes on that. Even just 6-8" narrower would allow you to put a side-light style window to the left of that backdoor and would visually really open your kitchen up. Or, if the storage is more important to you, would allow a wall with narrow storage shelves like kiktx posted.

You would also use a portion of a wall like that for hooks to hang coats.