Thanks for weighing in on the mudroom, funkycamper. I definitely saw your earlier posts -- I've been reading everything, sometimes twice or three times. Haven't figured out a non-awkward way to acknowledge everyone, but I'm reading!

I will probably do another fact-finding post about the mudroom once we get a firmer grasp on the kitchen. I agree 100 percent that we need to have good plans for both steps before we start on either one of them.

I'm not seeking acknowledgment. Just wanted you to be aware of options that include use of the mudroom space. I'm glad you won't be proceeding until both plans are worked out. However, I think whatever you plan for the mudroom is critical for planning your kitchen. You can't plan a good kitchen without also planning the mudroom. They should be planned at the same time. Don't wait to have a firmer grasp on the kitchen. They are tied together too much to do that, imho.

That makes sense, funkycamper. I'll continue to listen to any kitchen layout suggestions in this thread, but in the meantime my wife and I will start talking more about the mudroom. Perhaps I'll throw up another post, here or in the remodeling section. Thanks again!

If you're going to expand anyway, could the kitchen could take on most of the existing mudroom? Or, could the mudroom "rotate" so it is alongside the top of the dining room, the kitchen is a galley above that extending into the old mudroom space, and the space between the kitchen, mudroom, and dining room becomes a butler pantry?

Interesting idea, bpa!

Craig, this is an example why it should all be planned together, not separately. If you do another post, have it include the entire kitchen/mudroom project, not just the mudroom. Since it's a bigger project, you can do it in the Remodeling forum and in this Kitchen forum. Let each forum know you've cross-posted and include the link to the other forum.

I agree that bpa's idea is interesting. Certainly it'd be fun to retrofit a new butler's pantry with some salvaged cabinets, etc. We will continue to think about all this. I appreciate everyone who's taken the time to weigh in so far. And if anyone else has any more thoughts on how to redo the kitchen within the existing floorplan, let us know.

Probably far too many structural changes, but I wanted to get something out there that shows a breakfast banquette. This would mean moving the bathroom and re-doing the mudroom addition.

A banquette is perfect for your home and maybe others can make it fit...a little more easily...with less expense :)

Also...how far is garage from home? Could you attach the two with a breezeway and incorporate the mudroom into that area? If so, I'd flip the back door, so it opens into the breezeway.

And some banquette ideas...

Okay, I seem to like spending your money (LOL) but here's a few more changes. Mudroom/breezeway with door opening from kitchen into this area...and French doors from dining room out to deck or porch.

Hey, dream big...then see what fits in the budget, right? But sometimes we get good ideas this way and can incorporate them into a more realistic plan :)

Spend away, lavenderlass! I've always loved the craftsman-style breakfast nooks, and your plan offers a smart way to do that. If we're going to get into tearing down walls and removing brick, it makes sense to dream big. I agree that doing so can sometimes lead to the perfect idea.

I didn't read through all of this thread, so sorry if I'm rehashing stuff here...

Definitely try your darndest to make it so the toilet is not visible from the kitchen or dining areas when the door is open. It's best if the toilet is not visible from outside the bathroom in every case, but it's imperative that the toilet is not visible from rooms where food is prepared or consumed.

For example, in your case I suggest that you consider 3'x7' or 3.5'x8' bathroom layouts (sink and toilet on opposite walls), with the door swinging towards the toilet.

Regarding the dual dining areas, I'm a firm believer that the dining room should be the most convenient and comfortable place for every meal, in which case the secondary dining space is a waste of space at best and and a chronic clutter pile at worst. But of course reasonable people disagree with me on this...

I don't think a secondary dining space is a waste, especially in an older home. They really are designed with formal and informal areas in mind...so a breakfast nook makes perfect sense.

And since there's no island seating, it's fun to have somewhere to sit IN the kitchen :)

I love nooks and banquettes. And I love you Lavender, ya know I do, but I just couldn't prep food right outside a bathroom door like that. And it's not just for looks/odors, although that would bug me too, but because studies show that when we flush, droplets float through the air. I wouldn't want drops floating out to the prep counter/sink area. Gross, double-ugh, icky! That's also why I don't keep anything out on my counters in my bathroom, except hand soap dispenser, and keep the hand towels as far from the toilet as possible.

If you're cool with opening up the wall between kitchen and dining, maybe something like this? I would do a cased archway for the opening instead of an entire wall removal just because it would fit the style of your home better. It's always fun to spend other people's money.

Since you talked about having kids in the future, I thought you might like this as it would be easier to keep your eyes on them better. This would also be nice for entertaining unless you are the type that don't like guests seeing your kitchen mess. Which is fine. We all have our preferences.

Oh, if you think the kids might use the office as a play space, you might want to consider chucking the idea of the tall pantry wall at the top of the stairs and, instead, putting in a door there so there is direct access from office to kitchen. Heck, that might be nice even for whoever is working in the office. You can pop something in the oven and work in the office and get back-and-forth quicker to check on things. I actually like that idea a lot. If you did something like this kitchen pan with the larger pantry wall, you wouldn't really need that smaller tall pantry anyway.

Hey Craig,

I think you're saying that this floor must have a laundry room and a full bathroom because its the only bathroom for guests, is that right? And if so, where are the resident bedrooms and guest bedroom?

Nice plan Funky!

Wondering about the prep sink... Where's primary prep? I'd only include the prep sink if most prep will occur there. It's not worth the monetary and aesthetic expense of a sink in that island if it will be used infrequently.

Thanks, gaucho gordo!

I would use it for all prep because that's where I'd also be storing my prepping tools so it would be convenient to do it there. However, I just realized that I made the island a little too short for a good prep area. I think the island should be a foot longer than I drew it to give more room to spread out.

The sinks could be switched. This would actually be more convenient because you could just slide the prepped food down the counter to the range instead of carrying it across the room. I don't know why I didn't think of that sooner. Then I would suggest a bit smaller clean-up sink, maybe about 30". I would still make the aisle about a foot longer.

However, something else to consider is that it's fun to visit with people while prepping and a mess of chopped veggies and such is easy to clean-up. If dishes are washed on the island, people don't usually want a drying rack there to see the dishes on the counter. Another however, is that with a deep sink with a grate in the bottom, items hand-washed can be placed in the sink to dry and be pretty much hidden from view, unless you've used a really tall stock pot, that is. And, for myself, I hand-wash to few things anymore that it's almost a moot point. After reading how studies show that it's impossible for a person to wash dishes by hand and use less water than a DW uses, I'm pretty much done with hand-washing. I only hand wash my largest items like those stock pots so no drainboard issue to deal with either!

The other issue to consider is that we spend more time prepping than cleaning-up. That's especially true once you get into the habit of putting virtually EVERYTHING in the DW. So it's also nice to be able to look out the window while prepping since you're there longer.

Of course, another consideration is that with this plan, the DW is open in the middle of the room vs. the end of a run at the outer edge of the room. While the aisle is wide enough to walk around it, that would still get annoying to me.

All my rambling to say that all these issues need to be weighed for someone to decide which sink should go where and how they would prefer it. But I would never question the wisdom of actually having two sinks whenever possible. It allows for multiple workers and multiple tasks to be occuring simultaneously. And allows for a nice secondary prep space so two can prep at the same time without congestion issues. (I hate kitchen congestion!)

Unless someone is on a slab, the cost of running the plumbing isn't very much. The only hindrance and a bigger expense would be if Craig's basement is finished with a nice ceiling that would have to be ripped out and repaired/replaced. But if it's unfinished, it's pretty easy and quick so if this can't be done DIY, a plumber shouldn't charge too terribly much. My prep sink and faucet came to about $500. To me, the cost of plumbing, sink and faucet are minimal compared to the cost of the rest of the kitchen and increases functionality so much that it's a worthy expense.

The one thing I don't know about for island or peninsula sinks is the sink vent issue. While I have the sink/faucet, we haven't actually gotten to the point of install yet and I haven't asked DH how that will work. But people do it all the time so there must be an easy solution, right?

OK, I need to head to bed. When I ramble on so long it's an indication I'm too tired to edit well, lol.

I just really mucked up the island size. Oh, well.

Thanks for more great ideas! To answer a couple lingering questions: unfinished basement, yes, and the house right now only has one and a half baths. We wanted to squeeze a shower into the downstairs bathroom since one clawfoot tub might get a bit dicey when we have kids and parents needing to shower for church, etc. All the bedrooms are on the first floor, but it's even tighter up there than downstairs. The only place to do any bathroom expansion is down here.

I have to say that, in a vacuum, I like funkycamper's latest designs more than anything else so far. We'd just have to decide if it's worth the hassle of moving the brick wall, etc. But I think those last couple floorplans look like a dynamite kitchen. Is it worth the money and effort to make that upgrade versus some of the plans above that keep the existing floorplan? That's what we've got to decide.

Regardless, anything will seem better than what we have now (to say nothing of all the apartments we lived in before this).

Love that you want to include the Hoosier cabinet in your kitchen!

Here's what I envisioned the minute I opened your thread. I see others had similar ideas but here's my take on it.

I eliminated the doorway between basement stairs and kitchen and shortened the stairway wall so that there's room to extend cabs and counter on the top wall to the exterior doorway. If you choose to eliminate the back doorway, you can extend cabs and counters into that area but I suggest doing only 18" deep cabs so that you leave 48" of aisle between counter and basement door. That will allow the stairway door to swing out with some room to spare.

I shifted the mudroom doorway to where the old window was. In your pics, it looks like the window's width is about the same width as the doorway so it should be a fairly simple move. You'll need to remove the brickwork below the window but you shouldn't need to mess with a header; there should already be one in place.

I widened the doorway to the DR and centered your Hoosier cab along the wall between mudroom and DR. The wider doorway will provide a better connection between kitchen and DR while still maintaining the charm of your older home.

I kept the fridge on the stairway wall but moved it towards the top wall, closer to the sink. I added a 12" deep pantry next to the fridge, facing the sink counter, either open like this:

Nabors · More Info

Or with doors for pantry storage.

I added a pantry pull-out cab between fridge and DR for additional storage.

I widened the windows over the sink with the sink centered in their span. This means fewer uppers but hopefully the pantry cabs will provide enough storage to make up for fewer uppers.

The range is along the mudroom wall with 12" of counter to its right and 19" to its left (18" is the cab size). There are 37" of counter between sink and corner for prep. You could increase storage and counter if you move to a 33" or even a 30" sink cab. A 30" apron sink is going to feel spacious compared to your current double bowl sink.

I expanded the bathroom to make room for a shower. I also relocated the door to avoid anyone getting knocked by an opening garage door as they come out of the bathroom.

I created a variation on the above that expands the mudroom and relocates the garage door. All other details are the same as Plan A.

At the risk of inciting a philosophical debate, I'd like to clarify my comment on prep sinks.

First of all, I completely agree that prep sinks and separate prep/cleanup zones can provide huge functionality improvements. The layout gurus on this site provide examples of this every day. So I definitely don't question the wisdom of adding a prep sink to create a legitimate primary prep zone separate from the cleanup zone.

That being said, I maintain that the costs & benefits of additional prep sink(s) for secondary prep zone(s) should be carefully considered.

The benefit of an additional sink is directly related to frequency of use. Will it be used daily, weekly, monthly, ...?

The costs of an additional sink are significant and varied, and I think sometimes overlooked around here:

• Monetary - Including plumbing, electical (for disposal), countertop fabrication, sink, fixture, and disposal, you're looking at at least $1k for an additional sink and often much more than that.
• Functional - A prep sink will consume a 24-30" base cab, and it's typically accompanied by a 12-18" trash pullout. So together these consume 36-48" of base cabinet. Sinks also take up counter space, making it less useful for tasks that require an uninterruped surface (serving, projects, cooking tasks that require more space, ...)
• Aesthetic - Sinks are not attractive.

Bottom line, only add an additional sink if it will be used often enough to justify the costs. In most cases, prep sinks make sense for primary prep zones, but not for secondary prep zones.

I don't disagree with you, gaucho_gordo. I would think long and hard about adding a second sink for occasional use but if it would be used pretty much every time you cook and make a kitchen more functional and efficient, I wouldn't think twice about it.

You should never give up precious counter space for a second sink if your counters are limited but in the plan I gave Craig, there was plenty of counter space for prepping and other activities.

I think, of the things you listed, function is the most important thing, then monetary, then aesthetics. And I think you can have function and aesthetics on a small budget.

We disagree on only one thing. I think today's sinks look pretty awesome and I drool over a lot of faucets.

As for costs, we are all DIY and I tend to like humble finishes. Even so, I spent about $500 for my prep sink and faucet. DH is doing the plumbing and there will be a materials cost to that. If I wasn't putting in that sink, I would have counter there so that's a financial wash, AFAIK, and sink cabinets typically cost less than a regular cabinet with drawers so I there would be some savings there. I really have no clue what a plumber charges. I don't see the need for a garbage disposal in a prep sink because we compost. If someone wanted one that would, of course, wipe out any savings on the cheaper cabinet. Another wash, I guess?

I do like one in the clean-up sink so I don't have to clean out the yucky stuff in the little sink drain-plug. That grosses me out.

The things you mention are why there are no one-size-fits-all kitchen plans. We all have different needs and wants.

Good plans, Lisa.

Craig, what brick wall?

> I think today's sinks look pretty awesome and I drool over a lot of faucets.

Kinda like how audiophiles see beauty in large floor-standing speakers, or how mechanics gaze lovingly at socket sets and impact wrenches - proof that beauty is in the eye of the beholder ;)

Funky, Craig posted this on Saturday at 3:45: "The mudroom door would be harder to move because it's a former external (brick) wall, but we could do it if we had to."

You had me wondering, though, if I had gotten the details of this kitchen mixed up with another kitchen. Good to know I ain't lost it yet. = )

I've really enjoyed reading the pros and cons of a second sink. That's definitely one of the modern splurges we're thinking about including in the kitchen.

Also, lisa, your idea to move the door to the window is incredibly clever! I was worried about supporting the while carving out the new door, etc., but you're right -- with the window and its lentil there it will really be pretty simple. So if we want to move that door to get a more standard U shape it's very doable. What a great idea. Thanks again.

lisa_a, just wanted to add my opinion that replacing the former window with a door is a great idea. I'd been trying to work around taking out any more brick in a former exterior (probably load bearing) wall, but using the existing window header is an excellent way to get the range on an 'L' with the sink.

Thanks, craig and mama goose!

Lisa_a, that's a nice plan. I might move the range over and give only 12-14" to its left. There is no reason to center the range in that cabinet run for aesthetics, since it won't be seen from afar. You will do most work between range and sink, and a few more inches would be so beneficial. The space to the left of the range is really just to separate the range from the passage, and it's a place to store things you need when at the range, like oil, salt, flipper, pot holders. It can be narrow, and even a few more inches in the prep space can be nice. Especially if the range sticks out from the countertop a bit, having more space makes that corner more accessible.

Is the mudroom wall exposed brick? Maybe you can salvage the bricks from under the window to close up the doorway?

Thanks, bpathome.

Because I lived with an island cook top with only 16" on each side for 21 years (and hated it) I am leery of suggesting sections of counter narrower than that for others. But that's my hang-up. As long as they's enough room to set a pot down, maybe that would be enough for the OP.

craig, how wide is the counter on each side of your range now? It looks to be about what I drew but it's hard to tell. You can always use blue tape (so many more uses than for painting, lol) to "draw" a line on the counter to see how a narrower section would work for you.

Another way to gain more prep counter between sink and range would be to slide the sink and DW towards the basement stairs. In my design, I suggested new, wider windows, picturing a trio of them on that wall. You could put the sink under the far right one. Or you could do 4 windows and center the sink between the 1st and 2nd ones like they did in this kitchen:

Shaker White Inset · More Info

IOW, there are always ways to tweak a design to fit your needs.

The mudroom wall is exposed brick, but we can figure something out with the closed off doorway -- make it a broom closet, or recessed coat rack, or cover it with furniture.

It'd be much harder to expand the windows above the sink, but I think moving the sink (and I think we could get by with just one sink, probably a deep 30" apron sink -- we use the dishwasher for everything but pots / pans / cooking utensils) to the right will free up lots of space. I love the idea of having some natural light to prep by and use the stove by.

The one thing I'm still unsure of with this plan is where to store dishes, glasses, etc.. I assume you'd want that by the dishwasher, right? So those narrower cabinets by the basement door would be for everyday dishes? Would it be possible to put in some uppers above the dishwasher, or would it look too weird to have no uppers anywhere on that wall except there? On the cabinet front, I was figuring the only place to have uppers would be by the fridge. But I don't want to shortchange us on space and I don't want to be too trendy in an old house (i.e., I don't think we'd do exposed shelving).

I have all my every day dishes, utensils, bowls, and glasses plus a couple of sets of plastic dishes/bowls/cups for a 5 year old, in a 21" wide, 4-drawer stack (taller bottom drawer for glasses). And when I say utensils, I also mean all the serving pieces, and things like iced tea spoons, cheese/dip spreaders, butter spreaders, etc. And I have room to spare for a few of my smaller serving bowls as well. So I think you would have more than enough room in the 24" lower Lisa gave you. And she did give you an upper there. It balances the one to the far left on that wall.

Craig, can you clarify the distance between the outside door to the door to the basement stairs (in the cubby)? It's different in the two drawings. The hand drawing has it at 41" but the computer drawing has it as 5'2". If it really is only 41", then it affects the cabinet runs on those two adjacent walls because you will have to leave clearance for the doorway. Thanks!

lisa's plan shows a 12" deep pantry beside the fridge, across from the DW. Since there is a larger pantry on the other side of the fridge, I think the shallow pantry would be a good place for dish storage. You could use glass in the uppers to make it look like a vintage kitchen cabinet.

Comparing the drawings and pictures, it looks as if you'll have room for the wider base cabinet beside the range. I wouldn't go less than 18"--you'll have traffic coming from the mudroom, and you want as wide a buffer zone as possible.

Depending on how far the window is from the diagonal corner, it also looks as if the hoosier can move over, possibly leaving room for a small stand or base cabinet for a coffee center.

Trick out the dish cabinet like this:

Or this:

hey there,

measurements first: that cubby is about "43 inches from door to door and "41 inches wide. Some more room could be freed up, in terms of the width, if we took out the door frame. I'm pretty sure we're going to leave the door in place (it's a de facto window) but also seal it up, so I could add cabinets in front of it, as well.

i love the idea of using some glass to make that cabinet on the dishwasher side of the fridge feel vintage! my only concern is that the logistics of unloading dishes would be a bit awkward. I'm looking at the space now, and if the new cabinet ended where our counter currently ends, the opened dishwasher would make it tough to access and / or you'd be trapped back there. what do you guys think? am i overthinking it? would a shallow (but maybe still glass) cabinet work better along the same wall as the sink, if i removed the door to the cubby?

thanks for the info on the dish space, funkycamper. do most people now prefer their dishes in a lower cabinet setup? i know lower cabinets are preferred more generally, but it seems like bending down to the bottom drawer to get bowls or plates might be less convenient than grabbing them at eye level. but i've never had the drawers so i don't really know!

I went from keeping all my dishes/glasses/mugs in an upper to a lower just last spring after removing all my uppers. I really like it. It's convenient. And it is becoming more common. But it's really all personal preference. My deeper drawer for glassware is my bottom drawer so you aren't really bending all the way to the bottom of that drawer to grab a tall glass. If you kept plates in the bottom drawer, you would definitely been bending lower.

If/when you have kids, it would be a lot easier for them to help in the kitchen if those items are in their reach.

I'm older and have had back issues. I do notice that my back can start bothering me when emptying the DW since I'm unloading everything into lower drawers as all my bakeware, casseroles, bowls, Tupperware, measuring cups, etc., are also stored in lowers. I now do some unloading by bending over and some by going into a squat position. Yeah, I will walk around the room in a squat position. I'm sure it looks kinda silly but it's great exercise. As I've gotten older, I'm very aware that people often lose mobility because they simply don't stay mobile. I'm determined not to let that happen to me. So I think all this bending and squatting is good for me. :)

Thanks, Craig. Would you mind also measuring the full length of cabinets currently on the sink wall (from the left hand corner to where they end near the "cubby") and the length of the cabinet run on the current fridge wall (from dining room wall to end next to cubby)?

I think the issue is that you will not be able to make either of those cabinet runs longer than they are now, because you need to leave an aisle for access to the basement stairs. So, you will probably will not be able to fit that last base cabinet next to the DW in Lisa's plan and you may also need to move the sink and DW over to the left a little bit.

Although my dishes are in upper cabinets as they have been for 21 years, I love the idea of dish drawers. You could use the drawers to the left of the sink, but then they would be in the prep zone, and not convenient for anyone needing to access them to set the table.

The top edge of an open DW door is ap 26-27" from the face of the cabinet, leaving 15-16" between the DW and the dish cabinet in lisa's plan. Unless the pantry cabinet is wider than 32" you'll be able to open the right side door fully, or open it past 90° before opening the DW. Yes, you'll be trapped for the five minutes that it takes to unload the DW. ;)

The 24" cabinet to the right of the DW in lisa's plan could be set up in vintage style, the same as the pantry cabinet--you might try a mock-up to see which feels more comfortable--pivoting to the right or left.

Thanks for the feedback on dishes and drawers -- sounds like that might be the best solution.

The cabinet run on the sink wall is 114.5 inches. The cabinet run on the fridge / range wall (including the fridge and range) is 100 inches.

atmoscat, I'm not sure why you think there won't be enough room for a cab and an aisle at the end near the basement stairs. Per craig's drawing, the distance between the window wall and the basement stairway doorway is 64" (5'4" on the first floor plan drawing). I eliminated the doorway and removed the wall between stairway wall and exterior wall to make use of that entire span, plus, I bumped the cabs on the fridge wall a few inches in from the corner so that there's a little more room between the cab abutting the fridge and the sink run counter.

What is it you see that I'm missing?

As others have suggested, craig, you could store dishware, silverware and glassware in the cab to the right of the DW or in the 12" deep tall cab on the side of the fridge. As for unloading the latter, stand to the right of the DW and pivot to the tall cab. My DW is to the right of my sink and my dishware and silverware drawers are across the aisle in the island, one drawer over from the DW. Works great!

Here an inspiration pic that I had saved to my ideabook, just in case you can't find an antique piece that fits the space just right.

Old Mill Park · More Info

The other option - if you do need to widen the aisle there - is to reduce the depth of the cab to the right of the DW from 24" to 18" and add a hutch top to it, similar to this (but perhaps with a glass top):

shannon cabinetry · More Info

lisa, if you look at Craig's very first post, there's a hand drawing that shows the distance from back door to basement door as 41". The computer drawing does show it as 5'4", but some of craig's other posts earlier on led me and some other posters to think the 41" measurement was the correct one. If you look at this picture of the cubby area, you can see both doors, and the distance doesn't look like 5'4":

That's why I asked craig to double check that measurement. He said earlier today: "measurements first: that cubby is about "43 inches from door to door and "41 inches wide."

I guess the door-to-door measurement on the computer drawing must be off. (As well as the placement of the door into the cubby. The computer drawing shows a little stub wall between the doorway and the sink wall that is not there in the picture.)

I could be wrong about this, but I hope at least this helps clarify what I'm trying to say.

If it really is 43", then it seems like the cabinet runs on the sink and fridge walls can't get any longer than they are now (114'5" on sink wall and 100" on fridge wall based on craig's post just above.)

I interpreted the 24" cabinet to the right of the DW as a shallow cab--12" deep, probably because there were already several suggestions (including mine) to have shallow storage on that wall. I don't believe there is room for an 18-24" deep base cabinet, and possibly not even a 12" deep cabinet, unless it sticks out into the doorway. The doorway appears to be trimmed on both sides--if the door is removed, and the casing cut back on the right to a smooth 90° corner, that few inches could be added on the left side, making the stub wall long enough to accommodate a tall, shallow cabinet. The doorway header might need to be redone, but compared to ripping out exterior brick walls, that would be minor.

It might look something like this:

Hmm, I thought the 41" was the width of the doorway with trim and the 5'4" was the total width from exterior wall to stairway door (I rely on measurements, not how things look in photos since that can be misleading). I looked back through posts but if craig clarified this, I missed it.

Craig, please let us know what the correct measurement is for the span between exterior wall and basement door. Accurate measurements are kinda important. = )

Even if the cab to the right of the DW must be eliminated, my plan still works, IMO. You'll just have slightly less counter and storage.

To make up for that, you could add shelves in front of the windows. I think that look can fit in an older home, no problem, as shown in these kitchens.

Main Cabin · More Info

Mt. Baker · More Info

Modern Farm House · More Info

These shelves are used for display but they could just as easily work for glassware or dishes.

Tri Color Kitchen- All pics are property of Merri Interiors, Inc. · More Info

Or you could add a cab with a glass fronts and backs in front of a window:

Kitchen with a View · More Info

That second picture has always been one of my favorites!

Mine, too, mama goose! Have you looked at the additional photos of the kitchen and home? It's so charming!

A slightly cut L shape kitchen is a good way to go working wise. Having the sink and range by the window will make it more fun to cook in the kitchen and moving the fridge closer cubby area will make the work triangle smaller but big enough. Having a movable island (maybe with a butcher block) gives you extra workspace but also giving you a chance for changing the flow when you want to. I would open up that cubby corner and change the door into a window or save it and add a new (or salvaged) window instead.

Natural light is a godsend. putting low open shelves to keep dry and canned goods is a nice idea but not a definite (it also comes in handy when having guests over because you can throw messes on top of those shelves and no one will know)

The Hosier cabinet and breakfast nook is somewhat of a challenge. I would have a small sitting bench built into the awkward corner add a round table and some shaker chairs but then the cabinet has nowhere to go.

These are just my thoughts and opinions hope they are somewhat helpful. Good luck

lisa, I don't think I'd ever seen the rest of the kitchen until I clicked on the Houzz link. I'd imagined that the beautiful window run was part of a larger kitchen, and I'd assumed that the corner of stone, seen in the picture, was part of an island rather than the opposite wall of a galley. While very nice, the rest of the kitchen just isn't as glorious as the wall of windows. Few things are. ;)

MG, after I read your post, I checked it out. I, too, imagined it part of a bigger kitchen so was surprised it is a small galley. It's totally charming with that wall of windows as the crowning jewel.

I am wondering where they hid the fridge and if it's in a good accessible location or hidden away in an inaccessible one. The fact they didn't picture it makes me fear it's the latter.

It would be nice to have accurate measurements, especially for that stairway entry/landing area and just outside it.

Until we know more accurately, I just offer a small riff on Lisa's great plan. A 33" fridge allows the Hoosier cabinet to be enjoyed from the dining room. I really like the idea of a door from the office. One can work in the office and keep an eye on items cooking If kids are in the future, the office can become a playroom and one can cook and keep an eye on the kids. A 12" deep pantry cab next to the DW with the one Lisa put across the aisle will be more than enough storage for everyday dishes and glasses. I would install a drawer in the middle of each for utensils. I think I'd do glass doors on top with solid on the bottom.

About the two tall dish pantries, something like this for the drawer placement. And the pink represents where I would consider putting windows on the sides instead of a solid panel. You could do it just on the one side facing the kitchen. Or on both sides. If done on both sides, the light from the window on the stair landing would filter through contributing to keeping the kitchen light and airy.

Not knowing what they intend to use the basement for, I've wondered about the wisdom of closing off that exterior door. It seems like there would be times when it would be so convenient to have it like if something big needs to be hauled to or from the basement. It gives a nice straight shot instead of having to somehow squeeze it around tight corners. And safety issues. Also, what if you're cooking and burn something? Even with a good hood, the more windows and doors you can open to eliminate the smoke, the better.

I simply wouldn't want to lose the close exterior access point just so I could have a table and chairs right outside that door to enjoy my coffee on a summer morning, eat lunch or dinner, or sit outside with a book while waiting for dinner to be ready, whatever. Or what about when you want to BBQ? Nice to have outside access right next to the kitchen for that. I just like outside! And I don't see any reason to lose that access point.

Also, if there is an emergency, like a fire or an intruder, the more you have outside access locations, the better. That's another reason why I would also like to see the pocket door for the office on that landing. No, I don't live in Paranoia Land but, rather, by the Scout motto. I think when you're remodeling it's good to consider these kinds of issues and plan for escape routes for worst case scenario situations if it can be done at reasonable cost and effort.

Thank you all for the additional ideas!

I apologize about the measurements -- I've tried to say at several points that the digital floorplan was imprecise, and I only uploaded it in the first place because people wanted scale.

Anyway, the original hand-drawn floorplan is precise, and the measurements in the stairs cubby are 41 inches across and 43 inches deep. Of course if we knocked out the door frame, as many have suggested, or removed the trim on one or several of the doors, that would free up a bit more space.

Thanks for clarifying. It's hard to read all the info in such a long discussion.

I think this way is your best bet. No pantries in the stair landing area. Please consider adding that pocket door. I just think it makes your home's flow between rooms so much better and provide more safe routes. And consider keeping the door to outside as a functional door.

12" deep floor to ceiling pantry cabinets flanking in the opening. You may be able to fit a 15-16" deep one next to the DW but I sure wouldn't go any deeper. You want to keep the aisle spacious.

Thanks for those recs on cabinet depth, funky camper. I agree that it's best to err on the side of spaciousness.

I'm still sort of processing what option to go with -- like you said, it's been a long and really fascinating discussion, and it's been wonderful and educational to read. My wife hasn't read any of the posts yet, as she wants to try designing her own ideal first before looking at all these other ideas. Once she does that, though, and once we talk it all out, I'll probably make a new post with a more streamlined plan -- a sort of "this is what we think we're going to do, do people have any more thoughts?" That way people can be really granular about things like drawers for dishes (though you guys have already touched on some of that stuff).

If I had to say what I was leaning toward it would be some version of lisa's plan -- move the mudroom door to the closed-off window, then create a nice L with the range and a smaller sink. I think that's the best balance of getting a modern functional layout that makes sense for a (potential) family of four or five, but without removing too much of the house's inherent character. Our house is very simple -- it was a parsonage from the 1920s up to when we bought it -- so there aren't a ton of glitzy historical details. That's why I'm so resistant, for example, to adding a door into the office, though I agree that it's a great idea for flow. Removing or even moving those builtins is a big deal because the house doesn't have many features like those builtins.

Still, I don't think moving the door to the mudroom is a problem, and converting the kitchen over to that L really addresses the concerns I'd had about practicality, which is important since we cook a lot now and will probably cook even more once there are kids. We'll see what my wife thinks, though. Regardless, this thread has been incredibly helpful to me, and I appreciate and have read each and every post.

Cool. I will look forward to seeing your new post once you and your wife have had a chance to formulate some ideas.

Could the officebuilt ins be relocated to allow for the door. Just a thought. I don't blame you for not wanting to remove original features that you like. I go out of my way to preserve this myself.

Happy planning.