I don't grow MD, but noted it as exceptional fragrance on a humid 95+deg day at the Columbus Park of Roses and and Ind. rose garden. It maintains its wonderful fragrance in the heat and doesn't wilt in the sun. Very healthy looking. I didn't realize that's the damask smell. I wish I knew which iconic roses represented which main smells.

I love how big and healthy looking the MD blooms look here too and am hoping the scent improves. Straw has said how certain things affect scents for the worse so it could be that it doesn't like things that my other roses like, like manure.

HMF had a lot of reviewers that didn't like its faded color, but it's been quite vivid here, especially now, not washed out at all. Very long lasting in the vase too.

VV, I wish that I knew more about the smells also! What does tea in a rose actually smell like for instance???

Is there such a thing as a rose that smells like vanilla?

lavenderlace: folks say Kordes Valencia smells like vanilla, and Carol grows that one. Thank you for that gorgeous shot of Scent-sation rose .. I need tall roses like that for my cold zone, everything here is shrank by winter-die-back.

Carol: how do you describe Valencia's scent? Thanks.

The tea scent in Lady of Shalott (first few blooms) is mild fruit blend with black tea. It's OK, but doesn't send me to heaven like Versigny, listed in HMF as "Moderate, anise, apricot or peach, citrus, vanilla fragrance." That one smells like an apricot pie with vanilla, YUM !!

New Zealand has honeysuckle scent, but the scent is "weird" in cool fall at the rose park ... perhaps best in hot climate. It takes a certain soil chemistry to bring the scent out of Gertrude Jekyll, that has zero scent at Chicago Botanical Garden, same with SMDL. People rave about Oklahoma, but that's too much lychee fruit for me & its scent is much more powerful than Munstead Wood. I chose Munstead Wood due to it's higher-quality scent.

Alba fragrance is delicate and elusive. I wasted $$ on two Austin Eglantyne just to capture that heavenly alba fragrance. Eglantyne smelled like heaven at Cantigny rose park, but the alba scent lessened in my alkaline clay, and zero scent at Chicago Botanical Garden. My hunch is Alba-scent is best in acidic clay, like Niels in Denmark who praised Felicite Parmentier's alba-scent.

See below link for more info:

http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/1652280/fragrance-which-roses-do-you-have-to-have?n=100

melissa_thefarm(NItaly)

Musk rose fragrance that floats on the air: Cornelia, Blush Noisette, Moonlight, Jaune Desprez, I recall Mme. Plantier as having a floating scent even better than these. Heavy Damask fragrance: Etoile de Hollande (the climber) may be my favorite of the dark red, deeply scented Hybrid Teas.

There are a lot of different kinds of rose fragrances. R. pimpinellifolia has its own fragrance, a fat fragrance the way Chardonnay is a fat white wine (don't ask me how these comparisons come to mind). Kordes crossed it with a very fragrant HT, Joanna Hill, to produce Fruehlingsgold, which has the pimpinellifolia fragrance with some addition from the other parent.

I agree that Sharifa Asma is exceptionally fragrant. Louise Odier (Bourbon) is well scented.

People have mixed feelings about the myrrh fragrance that David Austin introduced into modern roses, but I like it. Winchester Cathedral has it, and I think The Pilgrim. A wonderful (really WONDERFUL) old rose with a similar scent is Belle Amour.

Vanity (Hybrid Musk) doesn't have a lot of smell when you stick your nose up to the flower, but I've noticed that its scent can be detected at a distance, too, which is a nice characteristic.

Then there are Tea fragrances, bitter and sweet, and fruity scents, like that of the climbing Tea 'Noella Nabonnand'. Melissa

Being a newbie I can't comment on winter hardiness for anything other than New Dawn and Mme. Norbert Lavavasseur, both of which are rock solid for me and have additionally survived incredible neglect.

However, I can comment on what grew and flowered incredibly well this year and didn't get any BS until late in the game. Viking Queen: queenly in all respects. I'm so happy I got two of these and will add another come Spring. Munstead Wood is a blooming machine that just improves. The same for Darcey Bussell, Dark Desire and what I've seen of Tess. DD is a super vigorous grower, as well. All are grafted.

For own-root, Margo Koster WANTS to bloom at any opportunity, as does Pink Drift and Fire Opal. However, my heart has been stolen by Sugar Moon and Anne Boleyn due to their incredible beauty and lovely fragrance as grafted plants. I didn't think ND could be replaced and she hasn't been, but she now shares the love! Actually, all my roses are fragrant to varying degrees except for Red and maybe Pink Drift.

The jury's out on 1st Crush (just temporarily planted), Summer Romance and Heathcliff due to few blooms and Tooth Fairy and Cecile Brunner due to BS. Falstaff is only too recently planted to comment on, but sending out much new growth . I'm training him as a climber. Pink Drift is a blooming machine, Red Drift not so much. Of course some of my plants were grown from small bands or bought cheap on the neglected sale racks of Lowe's so I'm cutting everything (except maybe CB) some well-deserved slack.

P.S. LL, I don't know if this is considered the "true" tea scent, but Heathcliff smells exactly like a high-quality loose tea. It's amazing. Some described it as a wet tea bag, but I love the scent of tea and drink it everyday. I seem to be collecting all the different scents and like to appreciate them on their own merits rather than comparatively. I find them fascinating. Tess and SR are very unusual fragranced, but I like them. It's one of the few scents I can call to mind just thinking about it.

Valencia in my yard has a strong perfumey smell - not sweet - just perfumey. I like it a lot!!

Carol

Thanks so much for the descriptions, that helps a lot!

Sharifa Asma is arriving Friday. I hope that she will like her pot for the winter at least.

Lavenderlace: Sharifa Asma is VERY WINTER-HARDY, up to zone 4. I kept her in a pot through the summer, since I could not decide where to move her next. It was a big-decline in vigor in pot. Sharifa is a child of Mary rose and Admired Miranda. Mary rose likes loamy soil, Admired Miranda has many petals. Thus a rich & loamy soil is best, and potting soil is too low in nutrients.

I got Sharifa Asma at 1/2 price late in the year, and planted it as band-size into my zone 5a ground. It survives many winters. If your ground hasn't frozen yet, it's safe to plant Sharifa in your zone 8b if you have a loamy but moist & rich in organic matter & slightly alkaline. It bloomed lots when I had it near the rain-spout, in wet clay.

Own-root Sharifa is prone to blackspots if the soil pH is NOT alkaline. Many reasons for the decline when it was in a pot: Not wet enough, low-nutrients, too loamy, acidic pH. A rich & wet & alkaline soil is best for Sharifa. Alkaline black peat-humus was amazing for zillion petals when I tested it, but that's too dense, and best mixed with sand.

Oh no, another blackspotter, darn! Can she take the water of Jude and Evelyn? Maybe that would be a good row for her? But she would also have to take full sun, no afternoon shade.

Evelyn needs full-sun. Sharifa Asma needs partial shade. Sharifa is very small as own-root, but needs rich & black loamy soil. I would use lots of black compost. Sharifa bloomed most when I dumped the entire bag of dry Encap Compost (leaves & cow manure). The bagged humus & manure from Walmart is cheaper than HomeDepot & also alkaline to help with blackspots.

This year I moved Sharifa Asma from pot to my wet clay (made loamy with sand) and that wasn't rich enough for best blooming. Sharifa Asma consumes less water due to its tiny root, but it needs rich loamy soil, and SOLUBLE fertilizer to bloom.

Jude blooms easily with sandy/loamy soil, but Sharifa Asma needs more water & nutrients. I messaged the Russian GERDA on how she fertilized her Sharifa Asma for so many blooms: high-phosphorus cow manure, 2 doses of chicken manure, compost, plus chemical fertilizer high in potassium & phosphorus.

GERDA23 in alkaline & loamy soil answered:

"Early spring nitrate. After 7 days, 1/2 bucket of cow manure under each bush. Then double-superphosphate, ashes for micronutrients, potassium-sodium humate (80% humic acid). Two times a year top dress with chicken manure. In the fall feed roses with grass and compost.

My Sharifa Asma-2 yrs, good seedlings, blooms profusely with soluble phosphate-potassium. In spring sodium-metabisulfite for fungicide." GERDA23

Here is a link that might be useful: Russian rose garden in HMF

Oh dear, not sure she's going to like it here! My shaded areas are taken if she doesn't like pots. I've been using my own native soil mix for my pots, not potting soil, but I just started the whole pot thing in late October.

Singin' the Blues is doing exceptionally well in the pot, others look average. But STB is covered in blooms in the ground also so I'm very happy with it.

Is GERDA referring to fresh cow manure or compost?

I think that you told me that worm castings are quite acidic. I have worms covering my patios after every rain and assumed that meant that the soil was more alkaline for them to live? Or is it just the castings that are acidic?

When you say "ashes", do you mean ashes from the fireplace? I've been meaning to ask about that as my fireplace still needs to be cleaned!

GERDA's Minerva and Koko Loco pictures, swooning.........

Lavenderlace - I think the worms co me out of the soil when there's too much rain. I don't think it has anything to do with soil acidity. But then, I've been wrong before. :)

Khalid - I didn't see your post before. Thanks for showing your stunning roses!!! Wow!!! That was a wonderful treat!! I especially loved Paul Neyron!!! As to the temps here - yes, those are usually Jan/Feb temps. They are a bit colder than usual for December. Well, I'm going now for a walk in the -30C temps. :)

Carol

Lavender: Josh in TX once posted the best-color Sharifa Asma in pot, with compost. Sharifa is so tiny as own-root thus best in a pot with rich-compost, rather than dried out in hot sun & sandy soil.

I gave Carol the pH of worm castings at 6.82, taken from University of Kentucky paper on vegetable seedlings. Worms like it alkaline. I had zero worms in my last house of acidic clay, but tons of worms here in my current house of alkaline clay, pH near 8.

GERDA refers to fresh cow manure (pH 4 to 5), that's AWESOME for blooming. Decades ago Cantigny rose park applied fresh cow manure in spring, it stank mighty, and that's the best display of roses in 20 years !! Composted humus & manure bags from Walmart of HomeDepot has high pH over 8, due to quick lime used to deodorize. Folks won't buy bagged manure if it stinks mighty like fresh cow manure.

The best ashes is from hard-wood. The ashes from charcoals are not suitable for plants. If you use hard-wood in your fireplace (cherry, birch, oak), rather than soft-wood (pine), then your ashes has more nutrients.

Khalid: I didn't see your post either until now. Gorgeous Paul Neyron bloom !! Most healthy & pretty bushes of William Morris, Rose de Rescht, The Dark Lady, Shocking blue (thanks for the info. of less scent of that, so I won't buy that one).

Khalid: you definitely have alkaline & loamy soil. My Paul Neyron died when I stuffed acidic alfalfa in the planting hole .. but it was 100% healthy in alkaline clay with pH near 8. William Morris (own-root) also died when I stuffed acidic cracked corn in the planting hole. Lesson learned this year: stop messing around with my alkaline clay !!

But the pic. I took with Munstead Wood shrinking to 1/3 its size & yellowish leaves with too much 6-month-old leaves was priceless. Good reference as to what happens when the pH drops: smaller leaves & less leaves & wimpy.

LL, I have a trap in my Fplace which empties the ashes in a bin from which I collect them at the end of the season for my peonies, I've read it's best if they sit for a while, but I don't know why. I have a lot of brush that I burn and put those ashes in the compost heap now that I don't use the FPlace.

Amazing plants, Khalid. I'm taking notes on your methods to avoid BS in my garden. Almost all my roses were new this year and many already had BS when bought cheap, so I can't really judge their resistance when well cultivated. However, I take heart that even through your monsoon they remain healthy. I am trying manure in my compost this winter and may apply a top dressing over the compost in Spring.

Khalid, I didn't see your post until now either! There seems to be some sort of delay, hope you didn't think that we were all ignoring those beautiful pictures!

St. Ethelberga is one I need to check out and was already thinking of Rose de Rescht and Paul Neyron for the heat but wasn't sure about the color. Are they more red or purple would you say?

I'm stopping at 200 plants so trying to pick the ones that will be happiest and easiest to deal with here. I think any more will cross the line between fun work and very hard work!

VV, some of my ARE plants arrived with BS and then it disappeared so I assumed it was my climate. But we do have rainy, foggy days on occasion and they stayed clean like the others. (UNLIKE Heirloom, LOL!).

Lavender: Paul Neyron is light pink as own-root in my alkaline clay. Khalid's roses are grafted on Centifolia root-stock which secretes acid & thus more trace elements are available. His Liv Tyler is much deeper than my own-root (even with horse manure). Rose de Rescht is red as own-root for alkaline folks.

The best guidelines for own-root roses in sandy & hot climate would be Val's posts from Florida. Growing own-root is much harder than grafted. Grafted is simple: one-rootstock, same preferences. Some own-roots are so hard to please that I'm glad they died, or winter-killed. William Morris won't be happy in my clay nor my zone 5a winter, so glad that I killed it accidentally.

I shop for LARGE & DARK-GREEN & GLOSSY leaves which are suitable for my wet clay. What roses do you notice having such foliage in your garden? Thank you.

Hmmmm...I would have to say Francis Meilland, First Crush, and Scent-sation have the biggest and darkest leaves. Singin' the Blues is young but very dark and glossy.

Ebb Tide actually now has the biggest leaves though different cane's leaves look different. I'm not sure that Ebb's leaves are supposed to be so big though, but everything about him is getting that way unfortunately.

But for glossiest, it's hands down, Kordes Savannah. The leaves look like oil has been poured on them and I've been asked if it was an artificial plant more than once.

I wasn't thrilled with this one at first as two died in wet clay and they all struggled, but they have really taken off since fixing it. Getting way bigger than Heirloom's and Kordes' sites says though already. Scent lasts in the vase too. The flower is very bright also, almost looks artificial too.

Since they are 7-leaflet and everything about them points to liking clay per Straw's observations, I wonder if it was just too wet for them at first and not that they hate clay? (Of course, everything hated those wet, grey clay balls though!)

While Ebb Tide and the Austins were drinking an obscene amount of water while they were getting established in fast draining soil, Savannah was probably getting waterlogged until I figured it out.

Lavenderlace: thanks for the info. of the large & dark leaves (Francis Meilland, First Crush, and Scent-sation have the biggest and darkest leaves), and the glossy leaves: Singin' the blues & Savannah.

I googled "gray clay" and one study said it's low in potassium. Also found an excellent Texas site that describes types of soil across your state. What you think of the below link?

http://texasalmanac.com/topics/environment/soils-texas

Potassium is essential for disease-prevention. Khalid's compost is very high in potassium (citrus rind, guava, etc.), plus his soil is loamy, thus potassium is readily available.

My black alkaline clay is high in potassium, if drainage is provide (working in pine-barks). My roses were healthier using pine-bark for drainage, the problem with gypsum is high-calcium, which drives down potassium. To preserve the potassium in my clay, I will put gypsum ONLY AT THE BOTTOM OF THE HOLE, to fish out the rocks. Then pine-bark throughout the clay, that won't mess up my potassium-reservoir.

My yellowish clay at below 2 feet is worthless, weeds can't even grow in that dense "glue". My next year experiment is to use "black-peat-humus" as topping to neutralize acidic rain

Topping with high-potassium red-lava-rock DID NOT WORK, but putting some high-potassium red-lava rock at bottom of the hole DID INCREASE blooming in Betty White, same with Strike it Rich (yellow rose).

I notice that both Sharifa Asma and Nahema have similar leaves: curl down, and dark-green. Both were stingy in heavy alkaline clay, but best in RICH & WET & high-potassium loamy soil. Since Nahema's leaves are larger, its root is also larger, and can handle clay better than Sharifa Asma (tend to blackspot in clay & acidic rain).

I dug both of them up, and Nahema had chunkier & woodier root, thus can take dense clay better,

I tried rooting Nahema's cuttings, and leaves dry out immediately in a potting soil & sand medium. So I tested with 1/2 potting soil and 1/2 perlite, and that got worse, dry out even more !! I trimmed Nahema's leaves, put in the garbage, with others' leaves (including Austins). Nahema' leaves were the FIRST ONE TO DRY OUT.

When I grew Nahema in 2012, it didn't bloom unless there's tons of rain to release potassium from my clay (that was before I knew about sulfate of potash & gypsum).

Nahema is a child of Heritage (prefer loamy & acidic soil), and a child of Delbard hybrid tea Grand Siecle (large bloom). Such large bloom plus many petals mean a high demand for potassium.

Both Nahema and Sharifa Asma are similar in leaves' texture & curling down, and both prefer wet soil high in potassium. Potting soil DID NOT work for Nahema nor Sharifa Asma, too dry & too light & and low in potassium.

Straw, thanks for that link! What a great chart. I'm described as:

"The upland soils are mostly deep, light-colored, slightly acid sandy loams and loamy sands with reddish loamy or clayey subsoils. Bottomland soils are reddish-brown to dark gray, slightly acid to alkaline loams or gray clays."

This might explain why I have so many different types of soil on my property. So I hope that I'm not giving anybody bad advice regarding my roses likes and dislikes!

Perhaps I might try my native reddish sandy soil but mix in organics like castings for Sharifa's pot when she arrives? Not sure if I have any manure thats aged enough to use in the hole.

I don't like the sounds of that "quick lime" that you described in commercial composts that I did try before. And you didn't give me your blessing on the Earthgrow Humus that I already bought so afraid to use that!

Carol: You go for a walk in -30*C !!! Very impressed. In Toronto when it crossed -15*C, I never went for a morning walk. Found it too freezing cold to enjoy a walk. But here in Islamabad I walk almost every morning with my dog.... 6-7 km. Actually he makes me run a lot during my walk.

Straw: Yes, the natural pH of soil in my area is 7.4, however, I replace the soil in the hole when I plant a new rose with a better quality river soil. I use the same soil in my pots too. I guess that soil is alkaline too or may be continuous watering with tap water (pH around 7.8 in my area) also make my soil alkaline with the passage of time.

Lavenderlace: No issue. I am aware of this problem with this forum. Sometimes it becomes very frustrating too. Sometimes I ask something from Straw, she replies too (and she always gives a very well researched and detailed reply) but I do not see that reply for more than 24 hours at times. And then it so happens that there are many posts under it and I tend to miss out that reply. At times I thought that Straw didn't reply but then I found some of those things after many days. Now I make it a habit to scroll up the threads and check out if there is something that I missed. Many important posts are missed on this forum due to this. Like I never saw Straws post containing a snowy scene and your post of Scent-sational when I made my post below it. I saw it the next day and by then, a number of posts had been done under it.

Regarding colours of Paul Neyron and Rose de Rescht, the photos that I have posted are of June and July mostly which is the hottest part of the year in Islamabad and temperatures reach upto 115*F. What you see in these photos is the worst performance of these roses. Their colours, size and fragrance during spring (Mar-Apr) and Fall (Oct to Dec) is much better.

Basically, my purpose of showing the photos from the worst season is to set a datum line. If a rose can perform reasonably well during this season, it will surely perform better in a season that is more conducive for growth. Hence, I keep identifying such roses that perform well in the worst seasons, ie, hot summers and very wet monsoon. Those are the roses I want to grow in my garden.

best regards

EarthGro Humus get bad ratings on the internet, like 2 1/2 stars !! I agree to that, too alkaline with quick-lime . stunted my tomatoes & was worse than my hard clay.

Worm casting at pH 6.8 is perfect & helps with growth (Sharifa is a slow-grower). Since your soil is alkaline sandy, I would use 2 cups of alfalfa-meal at pH 5.8 as Roses Unlimited suggested for the planting hole, plus 1 cup of Espoma-Plant-Tone NPK 5-3-3. The Espoma-tone is safe for the planting hole, be it Tomato-tone (with calcium), or Rose-Tone. Sandy soil is often low in nitrogen and potassium, and Sharifa really needs extra-nitrogen since it's so tiny.

My 5 feet tall Dee-lish as 1st-year own-root: I put 2 cups of Plant-Tone in that large hole. Sharifa is smaller, so 1 cup slow-released fertilizer as Roses Unlimited suggest is safe.

Alfalfa-meal in the planting hole of my high-magnesium clay is bad, it can't decay and becomes sour and hurt roots. But alfalfa meal will break down faster in your sandy soil to hold moisture better. If it's summer time now, I won't recommend alfalfa in the hole, the heat gives off will cook roots. But winter time is great to put organics like alfalfa-meal in the hole. Alfalfa has calcium so that helps with root-growth.

Roses Unlimited also recommend 1/4 part peat moss, 1/4 part red clay, 1/4 part compost, 1/4 part rich top soil. The potting soil that my Sharifa didn't do well was mostly brown peat-moss and brown bark-chips, zero nutrients.

In 2012 I planted Sonia Rykiel late in Nov., I put leaves in the planting hole, that didn't hurt Sonia since it likes rich & acidic soil. But putting leaves in the hole of Old Port (dark-green & large leaves) in Nov. was bad, same with dark-green leaves Wise Portia .. my clay made it hard for organics to decompose, so it soured through extremely cold winter.

Khalid: just saw your post (10 hrs. ago). I agree with you about honesty and posting pics. in ALL conditions, and not just spring-flush like Rose forum. I admire what you did " the photos that I have posted are of June and July mostly which is the hottest part of the year in Islamabad and temperatures reach upto 115*F. What you see in these photos is the worst performance of these roses."

Yes, the above pics. accurately show your worst conditions. There's zero learning in other forums where folks only post their best pics !! I am after truth, learning, and accuracy so I really appreciate Khalid's honest pics.

I realize the secret of healthy roses: growing roses which are suitable for one's soil and climate. My climate (cold zone 5a) and soil (heavy wet clay) is just the opposite Khalid's hot climate (zone 9b) and soil (drier, loamy soil).

Take Paul Neyron, was 100% healthy only when I used fast-draining, light & dry pine-fines potting soil. But that died when I put wet & acidic alfalfa with my heavy clay. Paul Neyron didn't do well for Lynn (dry & hot Nevada) with alkaline clay either. Thus alkaline & good-drainage & lighter soil is best for Paul.

Take The Dark Lady, did well for Chicago Botanical loamy & alkaline soil. That one has Rugosa heritage thus prefer sandy/loamy and quite drought-tolerant. So glad that I took that out of my buy-list.

Nahema is blackspot-resistant since its leaves don't hold much water, it's the first leaves to dry out when cut, but BS-prone leaves like Pink Peace retain water for a long time. Nahema's root doesn't produce much acid, thus loamy & acidic soil (constant rain) is best.

The best condition for fungus like mildew, blackspots, and rust is wet and slightly acidic. The worst condition for fungus is dry, alkaline, and high potassium, and that's Khalid garden.

I have seen plenty of mold growing on acidic citrus rind & strawberries ... but I never see mold in high-potassium & neutral pH banana peel.

Straw: Thanks for you comments. The pics that I posted in this thread are of best performing roses in the worst weather. However, there is a much bigger number of roses in my garden that did not perform well during this period. They either did not bloom at all and if they did, they produced ugly looking insignificant blooms that weren't worth looking at. Many of these roses are big names and they did outstanding job in spring but were miserable during summers and monsoon. I have not posted photos of those roses.

I am slowly shortlisting such roses that have the ability to perform well in the worst weather. These are the roses I will plant in my garden in my own home that I will construct next year. I might go for just 30-40 cultivars only instead of well over hundred that I grow now. And yes, I may plant many bushes of the same kind.

best regards

Maybe it's because I feel guilty about wanting to move them for something "better", but I've been really watching my Scent-sations.

I posted a picture that I took in late November. Today, after last nights howling winds in the 20's, wind chill 13, (three previous days of rain and 2 light freezes), that same rose in the picture looks the same today, barely faded. A little pointed shape on the ends but nothing brown.

I don't remember them ever shattering all summer as I cut them off when the color got too light for my liking. But they had always been on there for at least two weeks.

Is this unusually long to stay so fresh looking or somewhat normal? I wonder how long it goes? My Heritages shatter very quickly by comparison and I often don't even bother to cut them for the vase.

They are next to Francis Meilland whose flowers were much more beautiful but Scent-Sation is certainly a much harder worker!

Dark Desire, Margo Koster and my Orleans polys all stay good looking forever, just fading. I have to cut them. I like this especially in my poly bed that's on a lower level; it's nice that something always "looks" like it's blooming.

Oh good, I'm glad that it's not too unusual so I won't feel too guilty about moving them if they keep getting bigger!

I'm happy that something is always blooming but pretty sure that it's a constant turnover of new roses, never noticed anything being particularly long-lasting. Will start paying better attention to this!

Khalid wrote: " I am slowly shortlisting such roses that have the ability to perform well in the worst weather. These are the roses I will plant in my garden in my own home that I will construct next year. I might go for just 30-40 cultivars only instead of well over hundred that I grow now. And yes, I may plant many bushes of the same kind."

That's what I'm trying to do, find the ones that are fun and easy for my area, and then just grow a lot of them! These threads have been super helpful for that, thanks to everyone.

I started out getting quite a few at a time, and while it could have been a disaster, I did notice things that I might not have noticed had I only bought one type of plant one at a time.

For example, in a group of 6 of the same kind, 1 looked extra large, vigorous, and strong, 3 to 4 looked the same, and then there would be one weak, little runt. Surely, the company that sent them to me saw the differences when they chose them???

But if I would have been the one who bought ONLY the sickly little runt or only the vigorous one, I might have gotten a totally different impression of the plant and how it does in my area.

That being said, I have a lot arriving this month that are just "singles" and have to rely on what I'm seeing mixed in with everybody else's thoughts so they are MUCH APPRECIATED!

Val in hot & rainy & acidic sandy Florida, zone 8b ... she mentioned that multiflora (7-leaflet) doesn't do well in the heat. Val wrote:

"Multiflora does not do well here, may not be the sand but the heat that bothers it or perhaps the lack of chill hours. For instance, the Seven Sisters rose will not bloom here, not enough "chill hours".

Most rugosas do not do grow well here, they don't like our winters, too humid and big temperature swings. Highs can be in the 80s, this will cause a plant to break dormancy, then we will get lows in the teens and it will cause split bark. A plant can die from split bark if it is severe or it can led to canker. Maybe this is why some of the Northern roses do well for us, they are resistant to split bark." Valrose.

When Val stated "Northern roses" she means Buck roses (Earth song, Quietness, Prairie Sunrise, Prairie Star) also Folklore which are hardy to zone 4. Rugosa don't do well in my heavy clay, but do great in loamy/sandy soil & drought-tolerant.

Multiflora-parentage roses are fussier than Rugosa roses: require loamy soil, plus tons of acidic rain. But I still prefer multiflora over Rugosa: less thorns. My Kordes FlowerCarpet has multiflora parentage: almost thornless, and never die in my soaking wet & poor drainage clay.

Annie L. McDowell (thornless & lavender bloom) has multiflora parentage, set of 7-slender leaflet. That one died in a dry winter, and died instantly on my sister in dry & alkaline Southern California.

Kordes Poseidon has multiflora parentage with 7-leaflet in lower base, almost thornless, with LIGHT GREEN leaves, and does great under the rain-spout. Here's from HMF on Poseidon: " Vigorous. does not do well in warmer climates. plant in partial shade for best color. Blackspot resistant."

Straw, what you wrote is what confuses me about Kordes Savannah Sunbelt rose. It's doing great now that it's cool and does better in the shade than in the sun. (2 died in summer heat in clay, possibly too wet?)

I thought that it was disappointing like some of the people on HMF! The ones that like it had it in shade. But it's designated by the experts as great for the hot south.

Covered in blooms now in sandy (added sand) soil. Has the glossiest leaves that I've ever seen but all the descriptions about it contradict each other. I hope she behaves when it warms back up.

Oh, the mysteries of roses!

Lavender: I spent a while checking on various clays. Acidic gray clay is high in aluminum, and aluminum is toxic to roots. My sub-clay layer is yellowish (high in magnesium & calcium), and woody-roots like Radio Times actually went deep down for that clay !!

I looked through the pics. of Nahema in HMF, and Givadogabone posted a Nahema (grafted on Dr.Huey) in Australia, showing the clay there. Below link showing yellowish clay, plus black compost. That's how my sub-clay layer at 2 feet deep looks like: yellowish with a tinge of orange (iron). Part of Australia has alkaline clay like mine, thus Dr.Huey-rootstock is used.

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.267031

Lavederlace wrote: I started out getting quite a few at a time, and while it could have been a disaster, I did notice things that I might not have noticed had I only bought one type of plant at a time.

This is what I did too and as you mentioned, learnt a lot in the process. So many roses that looked fabulous in the online catalogs and I read good reviews about them in forums too where people mostly praise what they grow and post a few closeup photos from the best season only, turned out to be mediocre / trouble roses. So one can be easily mislead. I grew over hundred roses in past few years and now I know that at least 40 to 50 of them I would not like to grow again, a similar number I may or may not grow and there are over 20 that I would certainly grow in big numbers. This number will increase with time.

best regards

I don't think I'm understanding this, Straw. There is tons of grayish clay here, and roses do fine in it. Trees seem to do fine in it too. It doesn't seem toxic to me. Can you further explain?

Carol

Carol: I love your question, Thank you !! If the gray clay is alkaline, then it's safe, since aluminum won't be released unless the pH drops to acidic range. If the gray clay is soft with high rainfall, that tends to be acidic. If the gray clay is hard (high magnesium), that tends to be alkaline.

I have gray dolomitic rocks mixed with yellow limestone. The soil around those rocks are very hard, and very alkaline. Below is a pic. from the Internet on aluminum toxicity to roots. Also excerpt from Michigan State University:

"This spring, several wheat fields have came to our attention where spots had a pH near or below 5.0. Under these conditions, aluminum is in a soluble form and is taken up by crops, inhibiting cell division in plant roots and reducing growth. Plants with aluminum toxicity may also experience calcium or magnesium deficiencies and appear stunted with chlorotic (yellowish tissue rather than green) areas.

When scouting your fields this spring, look for areas of reduced plant growth and chlorosis. Acidic spots tend to develop first in low areas as calcium and magnesium are leached from the soil.

Dolomitic limestone, which contains both calcium and magnesium carbonate, should be applied on acidic soils that are magnesium deficient.

Mineral soils in Michigan tend to become acidic over time from precipitation (which has an average pH of 5.7), the decomposition of soil organic matter, the weathering of clay minerals, the application of nitrogen fertilizers, and the leaching of calcium and magnesium."

*** From Straw: I'll re-post the info. above in the "soil" thread below & plus info. on what makes the soil acidic. Clay is lethal when it's acidic, I killed plenty of roses when I made my alkaline black clay acidic.

http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/4198011/your-plans-for-roses-in-ground-and-pots-soil-prep-and-fertilizing?n=53

So you think that those gray balls of clay that caused me so many problems were acidic? (think that they were actually dug up from another area and thrown in what would be my future rose bed)

I'm afraid that I'm giving out bad advice on Savannah regarding her dislike for clay when it could possibly be just not any type of clay. And according to your specs on what a very glossy 7-leaflet plant like that should like, she SHOULD love your clay, right?

Yes, I would grab Savannah if it's on sale. HMF stated that it has glossy & dark green foliage ... those do well in my hard & alkaline clay. 7-leaflet demand more water than 5-leaflet, and clay retains moisture well.

If there's only sand on top of those gray clay, there's zero buffers to neutralize the acidity of rain, so the clay at the bottom would become acidic when soaked in rain. Sand or light potting soil has less buffering capacity, but denser matter like composted horse manure, black peat humus, and hard-clay on top can buffer, or neutralize acidic rain.

Coffee ground is a good buffer. When I soaked coffee ground in purple cabbage juice, it turned pink (acidic) at first, but after 1 hour soaking, it became purple (original color, neutral pH).

Thanks Straw for explaining. I was afraid that I was giving poor Savannah a bad rap that she didn't deserve! She's been great now but I can understand how some of the people on HMF weren't thrilled with her.

rosecanadian, as you've observed many plants grow on acid soil and even acid clay soil. In fact, many are only suited for growing on such, such as wintergreen, cranberries, blueberries azaleas, kalmia, hemlock, etc. These are the forest plants I adore and go visit in Me, Tn, WV and Eastern Ohio, along with the pine barrens up along Lake Erie. By looking at the native forests and other ecosystems, one can easily tell the soil substrate. Geology points the way and is then influenced by rain, it's amount, frequency and acidity. Some plants might be able to live outside their preferred requirements, but without continual amendments, they'll eventually decline. Too much rain in either acid or base conditions spells death for most plants, except those in bogs and fens.

However, I think due to the complicated, mixed parentage of roses they can survive in a wide range of habitats. What Straw researches so well is which roses will THRIVE under which conditions. I just have to see fragrancenutter's roses and Straw's experiments to see the results. Yours too!

The conversation on l# leaflets and their thickness indicates their parentage and going from that, it's easier to know what to give the plant. It would be so useful if rose catalogues indicated parentage or leaf characteristics more.

This whole discussion has been enlightening. I hope I can do better by my roses next year with their BS and intermittent chlorosis. Escept for Heathcliff, they don't seem to have any problem growing huge.

Lavenderlace: Agree with you on the variability of own-root roses. See below link in HMF, and Quietness does take partial shade !!

http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=2.36919&tab=32

byBarbaraG SE Virginia

"Quietness would seem to have potential for the EarthKind designation, does anyone know if it is in any trials?
The only issue we've seen here is variability in the vigor of the individual plants when grown own-root. Our original shrub is 5X5 and if we get behind on pruning it shoots up to 7 or 8 feet! However two later orders in two different beds produced plants which never built any size and did not bloom much."

*** from Straw: Learn lots in rooting roses from cuttings. Cuttings are taken from various sections of the plants, and those taken from a spent-bloom, roots much easier. When I received Nahema in 2012 as own-root, there's zero blooms & very little leaves in the pot & bare sticks ... and it kept its stinginess forever until winter-killed.

Vaporvac: fragrancenutter's roses are grafted on Fortuniana root-stock which outperforms both Multiflora and Dr.Huey in blooming. Fortuniana is fantastic for sandy soil & hot climate. Folks in stable-hot Florida reported Fortuniana living to 80+ years. But Fortuniana doesn't take cold-winter. Life-span of Dr. Huey in my cold zone 5a: more like 5 years for most roses. Multiflora-rootstock's lifespan is about 10 years, then it declines in blooming.

With Dr. Huey-rootstock, I see the decline in blooming after 2 years at nearby rose-parks, that's why I never get roses-grafted-on-Dr.Huey, unless it's $4 cheap.

That make sense since FN says her native soil is sandy. I hope my grafted roses last longer than 2 years. I had to get MW grafted as DAroses was out of it OR. : ( I wish I could root the others, but I think they're still under patent.

Straw - since my soil in the rose pots is probably alkaline since I use potting soil with pine firs??? (can't remmeber), and I put in alkaline worm castings...it's probably okay to put in acidic clay (which I got from my yard last summer and put in the pots - about 2 cups/bush)

That's interesting to learning about the life span of roses based on their root stock!!

Carol

Carol: I put alkaline clay on top of Sonia-Rykiel in 2012 when it was tiny own-root in a pot. I did that since I ran out of potting soil, so I put some black-alkaline clay on top. Sonia Rykiel gave me 15 blooms first 2 months as gallon-size.

Fragrantcutter used Bentonite clay with her sandy soil, and her Sonia Rykiel is a blooming machine (grafted on Fortuniana).

Clay retains nutrients very well, so that prevented the fast-leaching of nutrients in loamy-potting soil.

I don't know the pH of your gray clay .... if it's soft and crumbles like oatmeal when dry, then the pH is lower. If it's caked-up in large chunks when dry, then it's alkaline.

Even if it's acidic, it's useful in hot summer to neutralize alkaline tap water. In constant rain, if a buffer like Dolomitic lime (Espoma Garden Lime) is applied on-top of acidic clay, that will neutralize the toxicity of aluminum by raising the pH of that clay.

I think mine crumbles when dry. Okey dokey. You are a fount of wisdom!! :)

Carol

My lethal grey clay blobs harden like concrete when dry and are like modeling clay when wet, just horrible. I think that it must have been dumped there from a previous construction area.

What an enlightening thread. I am following.

Carol: Forgot to commend you on your walking at -30 C or -22 F. Wow!! I admire that. Two years ago it got down to -20 F, I ran out for few minutes to dump my compost into the garden, with gloves & hat, and my hands were in pain when I got back !! I'm moving my compost pile closer to the house this year. Our temp will be -7 F, or -21 C in a few days, I'm praying that my kid's school will close !!

I was walking for weeks daily in the summer, and didn't lose weight. But I lost 8 lbs. during flu-shot reaction: drank lots of fluid & slept a lot & zero exercise. So I'm doing the lazy way with smoothie (BIG THANKS TO KHALID) .. my pants are looser. I prefer the lazy way: sleep a lot, drink fluids via smoothie, see Khalid's thread on smoothie below:

http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/4221380/breakfast-smoothies-with-rose-petals-and-rose-tea?n=48

Lavenderlace: I have been admiring your Twice in a Blue Moon and Singin' the Blue .. really wish Roses Unlimited would carry that. I'm into blue roses this year.

The cold that you northerners deal with is amazing. You are very tough! We were back to 72 again yesterday after a wind chill of 13 a few days before.

Straw, I've been very happy with both of those roses, but Twice in a Blue Moon is actually much more blue-toned than Singin' the Blues in case that matters.

Lagerfeld would be in the middle for blue tones here, once the first few whitish blooms were past. Twice and Singin' seem to have the stronger fragrances though, at least this first year.