Federal judge orders Kentucky clerk and her staff to court!!!!!!!!!!!

littleonefb(zone 5, MA)

Federal Judge orders Kentucky clerk and her staff to courtAccording to this AP report, finally Kim Davis is going to face the consequences of her actions.

"MOREHEAD, Ky. (AP) — A county clerk in Kentucky who invoked "God's authority" Tuesday for defying the U.S. Supreme Court on gay marriage has been summoned by a federal judge to explain why she should not be fined or jailed for contempt."

http://apnews.excite.com/article/20150901/us--gay_marriage-kentucky-384990a8da.html

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momj47(7A)

Well, I guess she is going to have to put her money where her mouth is.

This should be interesting.

Her god must be so proud of her


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jodik_gw

Perhaps having to pay fines will be the only way to force her to do her legal duty.

And the fact that she ran under the label of Democrat is completely irrelevant, to the issue at hand, or any other issue.

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Lindsey_CA

She can't be fired because she was elected to the position. But can't she be deemed "unfit to perform the required duties of the position" and then a special election held to replace her with someone who understands and respects the separation of church and state?

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momj47(7A)

What do you bet she could run again and get elected again.

Like the pedophile in Virginia.

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mrskjun(9)

And the fact that she ran under the label of Democrat is completely irrelevant, to the issue at hand, or any other issue.

Understood, it would only be relevant if she were a Republican LOL.

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momj47(7A)

Understood, it would only be relevant if she were a Republican LOL.

No. Still irrelevant.

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chase_gw

Honest to goodness you folk can interject politics into just about any conversation. .....SMH

Elected ????? I can't imagine how much time you folk spend in the voting booth......you seem to elect so many municipal "jobs"..... ..please tell me it isn't true about the dog catcher !!!!!!

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momj47(7A)

Though being a Democrat may work against her from all the RWNJ's who flock to their martyrs. She may have to change her political party.

We'll see.

Dog catcher, jailer, you name it, we'll elect it

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ohiomom

The fact that she is a democrat just goes to show intolerance, hate, bigotry etal is not confined to one political party .... which I have always known. Someone can be hateful, bigoted etal and have no religious belief or political party. This, IMO, is about someone elected to do a job and now they are refusing to do it .... oh wait, that would include congress too wouldn't it? (^_^)

"we'll elect it"

LOL

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jodik_gw

"The fact that she is a democrat just goes to show intolerance, hate, bigotry etal is not confined to one political party .... which I have always known. "

Yep... you got it, Ohiomom.

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littleonefb(zone 5, MA)

"And the fact that she ran under the label of Democrat is completely irrelevant, to the issue at hand, or any other issue.

Understood, it would only be relevant if she were a Republican LOL."

No, Mrskjun, that's what you are stating, you are believing, no one else on this thread is.

The only relevant issue is this clerk is an elected official, elected by the voters to do a job and is a state employee; therefore she is required to follow the laws of the state and the federal government.

The problem is that she refuses to follow the laws, even when ordered to do so by the court, including SCOTUS.

She is breaking federal law and is attempting to claim that her religious beliefs interfere with her following the federal law and believes she should be allowed to break the law because of her personal religious belief.

It doesn't work that way, There is no other recognized religion in this country that would be able to legally do what she is asking to do.

It comes down to a very simple logic, so simple even a young elementary school child could understand it.

If you refuse to do your job, you don't have a job. What ever action is needed to be taken to remove the employee form the job is taken to do so.

And finally, action is being taken in this case.

On thing I do not recall seeing stated is that this clerk is attempting to force her personal religious beliefs on everyone else and do so as a public employee and on the tax payers dollars.

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tibbrix

"mrskjun(9)

And the fact that she ran under the label of Democrat is completely irrelevant, to the issue at hand, or any other issue.

Understood, it would only be relevant if she were a Republican LOL."

1) Correct. It is not relevant;


2) Incorrect. If she were a Republican, it would still be irrelevant;


3) YOU'RE the one making it an issue, no one else;


4) More irony from the right, considering it's the right wing that doesn't hold the same standards for its own party that it does for the other.

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duluthinbloomz4

From the Huffington Post: "It's clear now that Kim Davis, the Rowan County, Kentucky clerk who has refused to issue marriage licenses to anyone because of her religious opposition to marriage equality, is going to be a martyr to the cause. She and her supporters want a photo-op of her perhaps being physically removed from office so they can visually show what they claim is religious "persecution."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michelangelo-signorile/kentucky-clerk-kim-davis_b_8071594.html?ref=yfp

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tibbrix

Ah, I see. THEY'RE the victims. Got it.

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fouquieria(10b)

Twenty-seven years working in this office.....I'm sure she'll get some kind of pension.


-Ron-

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

I'm sure she'll get some kind of pension.

That will take some of the shine off her martyrdom.


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momj47(7A)

If she's convicted, she may not get a pension.

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terezosa / terriks

Sounds like she would like to impose a Christian style of Sharia law

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jodik_gw

'Religious persecution' is more like the religious persecuting others by forcing their personal dogmas down the throats of everyone else through refusal to abide by the law of our land... which doesn't recognize any religious sect or belief system over any other.

The true martyrs, here - life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

She would like to impose the christian form of sharia law on everyone else... that much she's made clear. Unfortunately for her, Federal law still overrides state law or personal beliefs.

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mrskjun(9)

I still say this isn't about religious beliefs. The woman is getting her fifteen minutes of fame as well as her handful of supporters. A few minutes in the limelight of a twenty four hour news cycle. Next week she'll be sitting at home, all of her supporters going on their merry way, and she'll be wondering was it worth it.

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redsox_gw

Is it true this woman has been married 4 times? I have not been able to confirm it...and sadly, I live in Kentucky.

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foodonastump

4 times, 2 to same husband. 2 kids out of wedlock. Devoted herself to the Lord 4 years ago. No turning back now.

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momj47(7A)

And Now I Have to Say Something About Kim Davis

DAN SAVAGE: And I think Kim Davis is waiting to cash in. I predicted
from the beginning that she would defy all the court orders, defy the
Supreme Court, that she would ultimately be held in contempt of court,
lose her job, perhaps go to prison for a short amount of time. And then
she will have written for her, ghost written books. She will go on the
right wing lecture circuit and she'll never have to do an honest day's
work ever again in her life.
Davis and her supporters would like to see the "rule of law" replaced
with "the rule of your imaginary friends." The trouble with that, of
course, is that people have very different ideas about who their
imaginary friends are and what their imaginary friends think is icky.
(Their imaginary friends, in fact, might not think much of your
imaginary friends.) So empowering people—particularly public servants—to
violate the rights of their fellow citizens based on the opinions of
their various imaginary friends is an invitation to civic chaos.

I would say I can't wait for a Muslim county clerk in, say, Dearborn,
Michigan (which has a huge Muslim community), to refuse to issue a
marriage license to a Christian couple on the grounds that the this kafir couple hasn't been paying jizya...
but that's not going to happen. Religious minorities in this country
intuitively understand that to empower religious bigots like Davis is to
paint bullseyes on their own backs. So the Jesus-freak goons at the
Liberty Counsel know they can continue to frame discrimination as a
"religious freedom" because they're confident that American Christians
will be the ones doing the discriminating, not suffering from it.

And this

US News & World Report:

The Kentucky county clerk facing potentially stiff
penalties for refusing to issue same-sex marriage licenses has been
married four times, raising questions of hypocrisy and selective
application of the Bible to her life. The marriages are documented in
court records obtained by U.S. News, which show that Rowan County Clerk
Kim Davis divorced three times, first in 1994, then 2006 and again in
2008. She gave birth to twins five months after divorcing her
first husband. They were fathered by her third husband but adopted by
her second. Davis worked at the clerk's office at the time of each divorce and has since remarried.

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tibbrix

Gotta love persecutors whining about being persecuted.

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Maddie AtHome

It's them "values" again.


"Martyr"? To that I say: Yeah yeah we all get it (yawn). Now step down from your cross we need the timber!

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tibbrix

"foodonastump

4 times, 2 to same husband. 2 kids out of wedlock. Devoted herself to the Lord 4 years ago. No turning back now."

I have yet to meet a Fundie who hasn't had some severe trauma/difficulty in their life, having made lousy decisions themselves, such as marrying for the wrong reasons, having children out of wedlock, etc. Poverty makes people desperate and make bad decisions as well (that I'm sympathetic to, until they stupidly bring children into the poverty equation). My experience with Fundies, though, is that they want to project their self-loathing, frustration with their own lives, desperation, etc., onto others because they feel helpless. I think it gives them a much needed, but false, sense of control to actually give "God" the responsibility of controlling their lives.

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ohiomom

"step down from your cross we need the timber!"

Now that is funny (^_^)

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jodik_gw

"I still say this isn't about religious beliefs. The woman is getting her fifteen minutes of fame..."

Which makes it all the worse, hijacking religion and using it for monetary and personal gain... it doesn't get any more hypocritical than that... unless you add in everything that's been revealed about this woman and her personal life. What gives her the right to preach about others and refuse them their civil rights?

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momj47(7A)

What gives her the right to preach about others and refuse them their civil rights?

That would be her imaginary friend Jesus. And he must be so pleased.

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tibbrix

Jesus wasn't imaginary.

What is imaginary is her version of Jesus.

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momj47(7A)

Jesus wasn't imaginary.

Really?

Prove it.

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ann_t

Mom, I'm confused how you can still support the Boy Scouts when they allow religious groups to discriminate against gays and yet you are against allowing this woman the same option. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for this woman being held accountable for her refusal to issue marriage licenses. I hope she loses her job and she is fined or jailed. Or both.

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tibbrix

mom, Jesus Christ was an actual human being.

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duluthinbloomz4

I accept the historical personage after some fashion. My first problem, however, is the lack of early sources. The earliest sources only reference the clearly fictional Christ of Faith. These early sources, compiled decades after the alleged events, all stem from Christian authors eager to promote Christianity...

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mrskjun(9)

Josephus was certainly not a Christian writer. Nor Tacitus

Rome in A.D. 64, the Roman historian Tacitus wrote:

Nero fastened the guilt ... on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of ... Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome....

And Pliny...a Roman governor wrote:

They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food – but food of an ordinary and innocent kind.

I never knew that people questioned Christ's existence. I thought they only questioned whether He was God.

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momj47(7A)

mom, Jesus Christ was an actual human being.

Really?

Prove it

Without using the Bible

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ohiomom

“Therefore, to scotch the rumour, Nero substituted as culprits, and punished with the utmost refinements of cruelty, a class of men, loathed for their vices, whom the crowd styled Christians.


Christ the founder of the name, had undergone the death penalty in the reign of Tiberius, by sentance of the procurator Pontius Pilate, and a pernicious superstition was checked for the moment, only to break out once more, not merely in Judea, the home of the disease, but in the capital itself, where all things horrible and shameful in the world collect and find a vogue’ (Tacitus, Annals of Imperial Rome, tr, M Grant (Harmonsdsworth: Penguin Classics, 1985), 15.44.

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tibbrix

Mom, it's kind of surprising that you are questioning the existence of JC. As mrskjun said, the "controversy" is whether he was the Son of God/the Messiah/divine.

Prove anyone from that era existed without using the written word, mom.

That is how events of that day were recorded, with the written word, heiroglyphics, written word and records - which is what the Bible is, among others, etc.

They didn't have video back then.

Prove it rained on May 15, 1907.

I mean, c'mon. You're being ridiculous.



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tibbrix

Prove Edison existed w/out mentioning electricity.

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momj47(7A)

There are no existing eyewitness or contemporary accounts of Jesus. All
we have are later descriptions of Jesus’ life events by
non-eyewitnesses, most of whom are obviously biased. Little can be
gleaned from the few non-Biblical and non-Christian sources, with only Roman scholar Josephus and historian Tacitus
having any reasonable claim to be writing about Jesus within 100 years
of his life. And even those sparse accounts are shrouded in controversy,
with disagreements over what parts have obviously been changed by
Christian scribes
(the manuscripts were preserved by Christians), the
fact that both these authors were born after Jesus died (they would thus
have probably received this information from Christians), and the
oddity that centuries go by before Christian apologists start
referencing them.

There are no existing eyewitness or contemporary accounts of Jesus. Paul only talked about a celestial Jesus. The four gospels were written by person's unknown, with no way to verify their credentials or the credibility of their writings.


Did historical Jesus really exist? The evidence just doesn’t add up.

Historical Jesus? Not So Fast.

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momj47(7A)

Mom, it's kind of surprising that you are questioning the existence of
JC. As mrskjun said, the "controversy" is whether he was the Son of
God/the Messiah/divine.

Why do you think that?

I'm not saying not to use the written word. I'm saying don't use the Bible. Big, big difference. There must be many, many other sources to prove he actually existed.

The Romans, and the Jews kept very good records. Birth? Census? Death? Marriage? Anything?

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labrea_gw

A historical Jesus yes there were numerous historical Jesus a messiah that's something else & a Christ then again something else.

Tacitus did write what he wrote but there are no originals what we have was handed down by translation of monks who might have dressed up the writings more but they apparently didn't. It's still o matter the Faith in a historical Jesus message is what is important & the central theme of a resurrection is not even important to some who accept the message without the mess that has followed over the last 2000 years. There were early sects in the Church that regarded Paul with skepticism, there were early sects that discounted the Book of revelations, there were early sects that accepted the Gospel of Peter. Early sects that gave away all their possessions believing a Historical Jesus was returning before they died. Early sects that believed to accept a dual nature in Jesus was idolatry to accept a single nature wiped out a significant part of the message a Trinitarian understanding even more idolatry. All regarded themselves as the one true message.



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tibbrix

Right, mom. Prove anyone existed then. Bible doesn't count. It was written by locusts.

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tibbrix

Silliness. Gadfly intellectualism.

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jodik_gw

Why is it a surprise, or even ridiculous that some people might question the existence of Jesus? He could be as fictitious as any other imagined character.

Not everyone subscribes to a religion.


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momj47(7A)

I'm confused how you can still support the Boy Scouts when they allow
religious groups to discriminate against gays and yet you are against
allowing this woman the same option.

Ms. Davis is a public, government, servant, who has sworn an oath to uphold the law. She can believe whatever she wants, but as a public servant, she can't disobey the laws she has sworn to uphold, no matter what she believes about them. Our government provides ways for her to seek change.

The BSA is a private organization, they can set whatever requirements they want, and they are changing. And as men, who were in Boy Scouts, take over leadership, the BSA will continue to change. I think that religious groups will, like the US has, have to adapt or die, in the not too distant future, and this whole discussion will be moot. We certainly see this happening in different denominations and churches, albeit slowly, but it's happening. Either the BSA will fold up their tents and be gone, or religious groups will allow gay scouts and gay leaders. Sooner rather than later.

Goodness, how many 7 year old Cub Scouts are gay, but don't know it because those adolescent hormones haven't kicked it. They won't know it for years. And they are in every church in the US, too.

I don't see the world as only black and white. For me, it's shades of gray, and each situation must be decided on it's merits, faults, consequences.

For you, you do what you want.

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tibbrix

jodi, we are not debating the debate over whether he was the Son of God and the Messiah or not but whether the mortal man actually existed.

As the daughter of a clergyman, I don't find it at all offensive that many don't subscribe to a religion or believe in God, etc. I know a heck of a lot of Atheists who possess the traits many call "Christian values" a lot more than many people I know (and read about, including the dingbat who is the subject of this thread) who bleat on about religion and "Christian values", but I do find it very offensive that the man's mere existence is being denied simply to further insult people of faith. It's like the offense I feel when anti-choice people use rhetoric like, "Baby" to describe an embryo. They do it on purpose to provoke emotions. Scurrilous.

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tibbrix

mom, prove He's made up.

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momj47(7A)

Right, mom. Prove anyone existed then. Bible doesn't count. It was written by locusts.

Silliness. Gadfly intellectualism.

Typical overreaction.

No thoughtful discussion, just defensive flinging of insults and nonsense

Why are you so threatened, tibbrix, by the idea that there may not, or may, be an actual historical Jesus? Or by people who may not believe there was an actual historical Jesus?

What does it matter to you? Will it change anything? I doubt it. Unless someone's faith is very insubstantial and easily lost, it shouldn't matter one way or the other.

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patriciae_gw(07)

So lets get back to the clerk who has no doubt about the existence of Jesus and that frankly is all that matters. We should take into account that her failings occurred before her present conversion so her past sins are not an issue in what she claims today. That is what Christians believe. We have to accept those parameters and can because they don't affect us. The issue at hand is as a civil right does she have the right to use her religious beliefs as a guide in the commission of her job. We had a similar issue in my state where Pharmacists were briefly given the right to not fill perscriptions( based on issues with morning after pills) that offended their sensibilities. That was eventually tossed as it became obvious it was not workable never mind constitutional. The Supreme court has already opined on the issue. Religious fundamentalists are questioning that decision. Can religious fundamentalists claim a higher authority in god for their work? No they cant because her job operates within the cultural system that accepts the Supreme court as the final word on the laws of that system. She has at this point a moral obligation to resign her job if she doesn't want to have to do work that conflicts with her beliefs. It really is that simple.

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tibbrix

Typical overreation???


Threatened???

Um...YOU'RE the one who insulted someone by referring to Jesus as her "imaginary friend". So prove he's imaginary.


I just said I'm not the east bit offended by atheists and find many atheists - possibly myself included, I don't know - far less offensive than many so-called religious people..and vice versa. Being religious or not has nothing to do with this.

When someone says to prove something w/o using an historical record of that thing, yes, that is a problem. I mean, prove it rained last night, but you can point to puddles as evidence.

I find radical atheists and religious zealots to be two sides of the same coin, actually: Neither has ANY doubt about their position; they tell others how they should be thinking and that they're wrong/immoral/stupid...whatever, for not believe as they do.

Personally, I'm not threatened by I am offended simply as someone who was raised BY and around people who devoted their lives to helping other people, at enormous personal sacrifice and risk, based on the words of a man you refer to as an "imaginary friend". Yes, that is very offensive, mom.

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momj47(7A)

She's a recent convert, and recent converts can be very zealous.

Probably heard a rousing sermon one recent Sunday, and thought "I, personally, can do something about this evil being visited on America".

And off she went.

As Elvis noted, her 15 minutes will be up soon, and people will tire of her, as people do when their own ideas change, and nothing terrible happens. They'll all move on to the next outrage.

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momj47(7A)

The Bible isn't an historical record, it's a book of religious writings.

But you know that.

So..........you actually are offended.

Why

Does it change anything for you?

You seem to have missed the fact that it is Dan Savage who called Ms. Davis' friend imaginary.

But so what.

Are other people not allowed to believe or disbelieve what you disbelieve or believe?

Are you offended if someone believes in Mohamed and not Jesus?


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mrskjun(9)

mom, do you believe Alexander the Great existed?

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jodik_gw

"jodi, we are not debating the debate over whether he was the Son of God and the Messiah or not but whether the mortal man actually existed."

Yes, I gathered that once I perused the discussion.

I don't recall ever learning anything about a man called Jesus outside of religious classes in parochial school as a youth... never heard the name mentioned once in 4 years of public high school. If he were a real versus fictional character, don't you think he would have some historical significance?


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mrskjun(9)

Same question jodik, do you believe that Alexander the Great existed?

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jodik_gw

We're not pondering the existence of Alexander the Great. We're talking about a fictitious character called Jesus. If he were a real versus fictional character, don't you think he would have some historical significance outside the realm of religion?


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mrskjun(9)

jodik, do you believe that Alexander the Great existed?

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jodik_gw

See above.

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ohiomom

To say you do not believe in God and/or Jesus is fine by me .... to call Jesus an "imaginary friend" and God a "sky fairy" is intentionally mean and nasty, if you were going for intellectual and highly evolved .... FAIL.

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fouquieria(10b)

Little can be gleaned from the few non-Biblical and non-Christian sources, with only Roman scholar Josephus and historian Tacitus
having any reasonable claim to be writing about Jesus within 100 years
of his life. And even those sparse accounts are shrouded in controversy,
with disagreements over what parts have obviously been changed by
Christian scribes (the manuscripts were preserved by Christians), the
fact that both these authors were born after Jesus died (they would thus
have probably received this information from Christians), and the
oddity that centuries go by before Christian apologists start
referencing them.

Some scholars think that Josephus' statements about John the Baptist and Jesus were actually written by Eusebius hundreds of years later and attributed to Josephus by Eusebius for authenticitie's sake. Lots of critiques about the one, partial-page reference to Jesus by Tacitus also.

Interesting to note that non-Christian, Roman historians of the time (excepting these) make virtually no mention of him.

I'm with mom on this one.


-Ron-

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momj47(7A)

to call Jesus an "imaginary friend" and God a "sky fairy" is intentionally mean and nasty,

You'll have to speak to Dan Savage about that, I think he is intentionally mean and nasty.

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fouquieria(10b)

I recently found reference to Ms. Davis born-again conversion four years ago, on her grandmother's death bed. No idea if this is true or not but it would kind of explain some of these actions of hers.

-Ron-

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mrskjun(9)

Ok, mom, these are just a few of the Roman historians who wrote about the existence of Jesus. Tacitus, Suetonius, Pliny the younger, Epictetus, Lucian, Aristides, Galenus, Lampridius, DioCassius, Hinnerius, Libanius, Ammianus, Marcellinus. You might start with these. There are more, there are also many Jewish historians not listed here, but I can provide it to you.

And since jodik said she went to parochial school, she might want to check out the Encyclopedia Brittanica.

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mrskjun(9)

Gee mom and jodik don't know if Alexander the Great even existed...sooooo.

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dockside_gw

Plaintiff's counsel have not asked for jail time as inducement to obey the Court's order, saying that an increasing financial fine should be the inducement. That won't work. Her crazed supporters will just pony up whatever fines are assessed. Whereas, jail time would make a difference, I think. Either way, she'll be a martyr to some. But jail time or a contempt citation would, I hope, induce the KY AG to do whatever he's empowered to do to get her out of that job. People like her are nuts - talk about being afraid of Sharia law - these people, with their Christian version of Sharia, are truly something to be afraid of.

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ohiomom

Um no Savage might have said "imaginary friend" but "sky fairy" has been said and repeated here on HT ... like I said if SOME think it makes them sound intellectual it really does not ... FAIL

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mrskjun(9)

Maybe they'll go and join Westboro dock. There has to be a place for them.

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labrea_gw

It becomes moot when several billion people claim to follow a message fact or fiction.

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Maddie AtHome

Would I want to derail a thread I'd post about ... fluffy bunnies?

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jodik_gw

"Gee mom and jodik don't know if Alexander the Great even existed...sooooo."

No... like myself, Mom probably refuses to play whatever game you're trying to play in which 'Alexander the Great' is the punchline or some great point you will make.

And... Encyclopedia Britannica is not a textbook I recall using in any class.




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ohiomom

It is not just Christians that believe in the God of Abraham ... you insult us, but you insult several billion people who believe.


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fouquieria(10b)

Tacitus, Suetonius, Pliny the younger, Epictetus, Lucian, Aristides,
Galenus, Lampridius, DioCassius, Hinnerius, Libanius, Ammianus,
Marcellinus

All of these were not contemporaries of Jesus. I think one or two were born within 50 years.

Modern day historians have differing opinions based on their works and agendas. I question the existence of this person based on such an important, historical position as opposed to such a dearth of real, actual, CONTEMPORARY information.

Edit: Correction. All of these were not contemporaries, if what we accept as the timeframe of when Jesus lived as 0-30 something. I accept the fact that our entire dating system is based on this person but I don't accept this person as being real. I'm open to some REAL, verifiable, historical data however.

-Ron-

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momj47(7A)

Um no Savage might have said "imaginary friend" but "sky fairy" has been said and repeated here on HT .

Certainly never by me.

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ohiomom

.....and yet y'all just can't help talking bout' something you don't give two hoots about.

:)

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momj47(7A)

Encyclopedia Britannica is not a textbook

Isn't mrskjun the one who called the BBC a tabloid?

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jodik_gw

That, too, Ron.

Everyone is free to believe or follow that which they want. It doesn't mean we all must or will. I don't believe that Jesus existed, or in a god. In a rational world, how can my personal opinion be insulting to anyone?

If it is, it explains the idea of perceived 'religious persecution'.

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jodik_gw

Who? Me, Mom? I never said that.

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mrskjun(9)

No she isn't. And last I heard Encyclopedia Britannica is a reference book. I don't know about you, but when I was in school we used it a lot.

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momj47(7A)

Whereas, jail time would make a difference, I think.

I agree, dock, I think, by this time, they want blood, Ms. Davis' blood, in a jail.

Does she have any idea how she is being used by people now? She's gone from principled to notorious.

I'm reminded of the girl who encouraged her boyfriend, over and over, to commit suicide. And then he did.

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momj47(7A)

Not you jodik, I corrected my post above.

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mrskjun(9)

I'm going to assume that you do believe that Alexander the Great existed, and feared a trick question. After all there are millions of cities named after him. Yet there is more proof that Jesus existed than proof that Alexander the Great existed.

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jodik_gw

Ah, okay, Mom... the posts are flying so fast it's hard to keep up! ;-)

And edited to add... where is all the proof, then, mrskjun?

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Ichabod Crane

"

Whereas, jail time would make a difference, I think.

I agree, dock, I think, by this time, they want blood, Ms. Davis' blood, in a jail.

Does she have any idea how she is being used by people now? She's gone from principled to notorious."

People will eventually get around to realizing that her (now), strict interpretation of the bible would mean that she also no longer supports divorce, in which case, the question of "how many times has her office refused to process divorce paperwork" is going to get asked. When the answer is none, I think there will be some outcry on how she handles different groups of paper, far above what we're seeing now.

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fouquieria(10b)

The Kentucky county clerk facing potentially stiff penalties for
refusing to issue same-sex marriage licenses has been married four
times, raising questions of hypocrisy and selective application of the
Bible to her life.

The marriages are documented in court records
obtained by U.S. News, which show that Rowan County Clerk Kim Davis
divorced three times, first in 1994, then 2006 and again in 2008.

She
gave birth to twins five months after divorcing her first husband. They
were fathered by her third husband but adopted by her second.
Davis worked at the clerk's office at the time of each divorce and has
since remarried.

-Ron-

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fouquieria(10b)

The leader of the organization providing her legal representation,
Mat Staver of Liberty Counsel, says he’s not sure precisely how many
husbands Davis has had, but that it's not relevant.


“I know she was married more than once – I’ve heard three [times],” he
says. “It’s a matter of fact that she’s been married multiple times.”


Staver says “it’s not really relevant, it’s something that happened in
her past” and that her conversion to Christianity about four years ago
wiped her slate clean. “It’s something that’s not relevant to the issue
at hand,” he says. “She was 180 degrees changed.”


-Ron-

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jodik_gw

So, her 4 years of supposed adherence to the bible is more important than 17 years of committed relationship... as in the couple she keeps refusing a marriage license to?

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mrskjun(9)

I just gave you a long list of historians jodik, I can certainly give you more. There is just too much historical evidence to list it all, from Pontius Pilate himself to disciples who were willing to die the most horrific of deaths rather than to disavow Jesus. Those same historians write that the Bible is true history. So I since mom made the statement that Jesus is a myth, I think it should be up to her to prove it.

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labrea_gw

Bryan Fischer was likening her to working as a clerk at Auschwitz today

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jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)(9b)

OK so it's as easy as declaring that you are saved . So you know you are about to get fired from a job and you announce very publicly that you are a Christian and your slate has been wiped clean. And you expect to get off the hook because your employer knows that you will sue the pants off of him if he lets you go. And you never have to do any work again. Is that how it works? So what the lawyer is saying is that this lady got herself a few Mulligans.

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fouquieria(10b)

Those same historians write that the Bible is true history.


Those same historians pre-date the Bible.


-Ron-

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Ichabod Crane

"So, her 4 years of supposed adherence to the bible is more important
than 17 years of committed relationship... as in the couple she keeps
refusing a marriage license to?"

Yes. My point is that I don't think she'll really be able to argue any kind of religious liberty or freedom or whatever in front of a judge when she appears to only support some portions of the bible and not others. It's like a concientious objector who doesn't want to join the army because he might have to kill and happens to be a hunter.

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jodik_gw

Thanks, Ron.



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tibbrix

"She gave birth to twins five months after divorcing her first husband. They were fathered by her third husband but adopted by her second. Davis worked at the clerk's office at the time of each divorce and has since remarried."

Hillbilly Holy Matrimony.

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graywings123(7)

I can't believe a county clerk in Kentucky - in a county with fewer than 25,000 people - makes $80,000 a year! That's more than twice the median household income for that county according to census records.

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labrea_gw

Again all the inconsistencies started before she found a true relationship with her version of Jesus (how's that instead of imaginary friend).

“I’m thankful and proud that Americans are standing up against the evil being forced on us. Our religious rights and freedoms are being trampled on. Clerk of Court Kim Davis in Rowan County, Kentucky, refused to issue marriage licenses for gay couples and defied the U.S. Supreme Court ruling. She said, ‘To issue a marriage license which conflicts with God’s ..." Franklin Graham still insists on insulting tax paying citizens calling them evil. What a gross pack of charlatans!

What a disgusting crew they are with their own take home versions of Jesus, little ring in the back pull it he tells them he loves them and who ain't getting the kingdom!

I know so many Quakers have no issue with a historical or non historical Jesus it is a non issue for them. The same way it's a non issue for most Protestants that Catholics have cartloads of relics from fragments of the cross the shroud the foreskin of Jesus (so what a Jesus collectable line) get to heaven faster !

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tibbrix

"momj47(7A)

Um no Savage might have said "imaginary friend" but "sky fairy" has been said and repeated here on HT .

Certainly never by me."

Right here:

"momj47(7A)

What gives her the right to preach about others and refuse them their civil rights?

That would be her imaginary friend Jesus."

and yes, Dan Savage is mean and nasty. I'm no a fan of his.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

I don't think she'll really be able to argue any kind of religious liberty or freedom or whatever

I'm curious how this will play out given that other Christian denominations, relying on the same Bible, support same-sex marriages.

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tibbrix

"If he were a real versus fictional character, don't you think he would have some historical significance outside the realm of religion?"

He did have significance outside the realm of religion, Jodi.

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Pidge(Zone 6)

All this Jesus talk is irrelevant to the issue at hand, the refusal of a county clerk to fulfill the requirements of her job.

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ohiomom

this mountain has had its name returned to the name it bore for 10,000 years of native history.

Not one single poster questioned the above, not one asked for written proof ... not one. Why is that??


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jodik_gw

In context, Tibbrix, I was speaking to the issue of being taught in history class within public school... where there isn't one mention. Not one.

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tibbrix

"momj47(7A)

The Bible isn't an historical record, it's a book of religious writings."

Wrong.

"So..........you actually are offended.

Why"

I told you why.

"Are other people not allowed to believe or disbelieve what you disbelieve or believe?

Are you offended if someone believes in Mohamed and not Jesus?"

Why don't you actually read what I wrote, mom, before writing absurd things like that line. What part of this did you have trouble understanding? "I just said I'm not the east bit offended by atheists and find many atheists - possibly myself included, I don't know - far less offensive than many so-called religious people..and vice versa. Being religious or not has nothing to do with this."

I'm not offended if someone believes in Mohammed and not Jesus. I'm not offended if someone doesn't believe Jesus is the Son of God/the Messiah, etc. I'm not offended by atheists, agnostics...or anyone because of their religious belief or lack thereof.

I AM offended by pseudo intellectuals and people who believe what they WANT to believe in order to further their stupid causes and to offend other people, which is what you are doing here with your nonsensical "Jesus never existed" garbage. You're the one who is threatened, by religion, to the point of having to declare that a mere mortal man who existed did not exist just because some believe he was the Messiah. I could care less if you or anyone else believes that. But to say the man didn't exist is absurd, and to say he didn't just so you can further insult people is offensive.

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tibbrix

"In context, Tibbrix, I was speaking to the issue of being taught in history class within public school... where there isn't one mention. Not one."

And there shouldn't be, in public schools.

How often in Church do you think the French Revolution is discussed?

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haydayhayday

I don't know, for sure, whether someone calling himself Jesus roamed around, but the rest of the story... rising from the dead, converting water to wine.....sounds like a fib to me.

Hay

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tibbrix

Sounds like allegory to me.

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haydayhayday

Allegory: "a story, poem, or picture that can be interpreted to reveal a hidden meaning,"

That's what we all love about the Bible. It can mean anything you want to believe.

"Eat, drink and be merry." Soon, very soon. I hear you, God.

Hay

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fouquieria(10b)

Will my conversian to Islam wipe my slate clean?

-Ron-

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tibbrix

The above is why I say the loony Fundies, like this Davis, and the pseudo-intellectual "atheists" like Hay are two sides the same coin.

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jodik_gw

The 'round and 'round on the Jesus issue still has no factual proof to attach to it. The fact that the French Revolution isn't taught in church is just a side alley to lead the issue astray; It's irrelevant.

I know it's hard to fathom, but there are people who don't believe Jesus existed, or that gods are real.

If he was, why isn't he mentioned as an historical figure outside of the realm claimed by religion?

As to the topic, which we should be discussing... it's going to come down to how the court sees fit to treat the contempt of court... with fines or jail.

It's just another story of someone throwing themselves on the cross of hypocritical martyrdom for personal gain. It's unfortunate it has to impact other lives that only want what they're legally entitled to... marriage licenses.



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momj47(7A)

Justice Scalia explained why Kim Davis should issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples or find a new job

No justice publicly dissented from the Supreme Court’s denial of Davis’s
plea for relief, and this was not surprising. The law on this point is
clear. Davis cites her religious conscience as the excuse for her
intransigence, but she is wrong to do so. That’s not only my view, but
the view of no less than Justice Antonin Scalia.

Davis has a right to observe and adhere to her religious beliefs, but
she does not have a right to her job as county clerk. The latter
obligates her to follow federal law, including the applicable judgments
of federal courts, and it is now the law of the land that the
Constitution bars state governments from refusing to recognize same-sex
marriages on equal terms with opposite-sex marriages. If, as Davis
claims, her religious convictions bar her from issuing such a marriage
license, she should resign.

Now Scalia has not, to my knowledge, said anything directly about
Davis’s actions, but he has addressed the question of what public
officials should do when their official obligations conflict with their
religious conscience. Writing in “First Things” in 2002,
Scalia explained that if he were to conclude that the death penalty is
fundamentally immoral, he should no longer serve on the bench.

[W]hile
my views on the morality of the death penalty have nothing to do with
how I vote as a judge, they have a lot to do with whether I can or
should be a judge at all. To put the point in the blunt terms employed
by Justice Harold Blackmun towards the end of his career on the bench,
when he announced that he would henceforth vote (as Justices William
Brennan and Thurgood Marshall had previously done) to overturn all death
sentences, when I sit on a Court that reviews and affirms capital
convictions, I am part of “the machinery of death.” My vote, when joined
with at least four others, is, in most cases, the last step that
permits an execution to proceed. I could not take part in that process
if I believed what was being done to be immoral. . . .

[I]n my
view the choice for the judge who believes the death penalty to be
immoral is resignation, rather than simply ignoring duly enacted,
constitutional laws and sabotaging death penalty cases
. He has, after
all, taken an oath to apply the laws and has been given no power to
supplant them with rules of his own.
Of course if he feels strongly
enough he can go beyond mere resignation and lead a political campaign
to abolish the death penalty” and if that fails, lead a revolution. But
rewrite the laws he cannot do.


Davis is in a similar position. Her official position obligates her to
take part in the state’s licensing and recognition of marriages. Insofar
as the state’s definition of an acceptable marriage differs from her
own, Davis is obligated to follow the state’s rule so long as she
maintains her current office.

Think of it this way. Someone who objects to war due to his religious
conscience has a right to be a conscientious objector and not serve in
the military, even were there to be a draft. But he does not have the
right to serve as a military officer, draw a paycheck from the military
and then substitute his own personal views of when war is justified for
that of the government. The same applies here.

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haydayhayday

"I find radical atheists and religious zealots to be two sides of the same coin, actually: Neither has ANY doubt about their position; they tell others how they should be thinking and that they're wrong/immoral/stupid...whatever, for not believe as they do."

...

"The above is why I say the loony Findies, like this Davis, and the pseudo-intellectual "atheists" like Hay are two sides the same coin."

OK, I got my laugh of the day.

I'm outta here.

Eat, Drink and be Merry, Here I Come!!

Hay

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tibbrix

Jodi, because what Jesus became known for is within the religious realm. That does not mean he didn't exist. My father preached about God. I know for a fact that he exists (my father).

Your argument is like saying that, because Katharine Hepburn isn't mentioned in schools and churches but only in the acting realm, it means she never existed. Not every notable person in history is covered by public schools. IMO, Jesus is definitely not one who should be, although I think classes on the Bible as a piece of literature are great I took one - nothing religious about it. But I learned a lot, and it was very interesting.

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don_socal

Catchy tune...


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jodik_gw

"Davis has a right to observe and adhere to her religious beliefs, but she does not have a right to her job as county clerk. The latter obligates her to follow federal law..."

That's it in a nutshell.

As to belief systems...

Everyone is free to believe or not believe in religious dogma... I choose not to believe. End of story. I see no proof to show me that any of it is or was a part of reality. It is a belief system that lots of people choose not to participate in nor to believe, and lack of proof is one reason cited.

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tibbrix

joki, once again, you keep conflating the religion and messianic nature of Christ with the discussion as to whether HE simply existed. Jesus Christ existed, like George Washington existed, and George Washington existed whether you believe he had wooden teeth, chopped down a cherry tree, never told a lie, or was president...or whether he did not. Whether your belief system is that Jesus was the messiah, son of God, whatever, is irrelevant to what was debated here.

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haydayhayday

"I find radical atheists and religious zealots to be two sides of the same coin, actually: Neither has ANY doubt about their position; they tell others how they should be thinking and that they're wrong/immoral/stupid...whatever, for not believe as they do."

I do like it that you capitalize stupid when you use it so often around here: "The Stupids". And, for that, I'll continue to capitalize your god: God.

Coins have three sides if you count the rim.

Now, I'm really outta here.

Hay

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enmc

That is a terrible example to use as an analogy. It is NOT the same thing, at all.

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enmc

I've posted this link before.... and I don't see why this settled case would not be cited in denying this LGBT discrimination disguised as religious freedom or governmental interference of religious beliefs.

Whether for business or most certainly, government itself.


The More things don't change

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mrskjun(9)

The fact that Jesus lived has never been in question as far as any historian that I know. People choose not to believe that He is the Son of God/ the Messiah. But saying that he didn't exist is like saying no historical figure ever existed.

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jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)(9b)

I don't find it very hard to believe that Jesus existed. He was probably a very charismatic person - people followed him and that made him memorable. However, there really is no way to prove his existence in an absolute way.

You would think that the rich history of art would have been based on depicting a real person, but we don't know for sure. I think that the first depiction of Christ appeared in the 3rd century which would have been a couple of hundred years after his death. So it's not so far removed that there wasn't a historical memory of what he looked like (kind of like we know what Beethoven looked like), but it's far enough that it becomes a little questionable and I don't think anyone can say for sure if he was a real person.

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Iris GW

Any update on the actual clerk today?

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ohiomom

No but we can say what people called a mountain 10,000 years ago without anyone questioning the veracity of that statement .... :)

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enmc

Read this today. Seems about right to me.

Or maybe she's just a self-important busybody taking her bigotry out for a walk on the news.

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jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)(9b)

Just saw her on the news. She is a piece of work. I think her court date is tomorrow.

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

I heard late this afternoon that her "courageous" stand has emboldened several other county clerks to also refuse all marriage licenses. I didn't catch whether they are from nearby counties or the same state or elsewhere, but it was clear that Davis "inspired" them.

Good grief!

I think I heard that her court appearance tomorrow is at 11:00am (her time, of course).

Kate

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Ole Huckabee just keeps turning up, like a bad penny.

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labrea_gw

“Kim is a person of great conviction. When people of conviction fight for what’s right they often pay a price, but if they don’t and we surrender, we will pay a far greater price for bowing to the false God of judicial supremacy. Government is not God. No man – and certainly no unelected lawyer – has the right to redefine the laws of nature or of nature’s God. Five unelected lawyers have abused their power by ruling in favor of a national right to same-sex marriage with no legal precedent and with nothing in our Constitution to back it up. They have violated American’s most fundamental right guaranteed by our Constitution – religious liberty.”


Huckabee is a Dominionist!

I don't see someone of great convictions I see most the women of EDD's family alternating between Religion & men.

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tibbrix

I gather Ms. Davis isn't quite so dedicated to the Bible when it comes to what it says about divorce.

So easy being a Fundie: you can cherry pick what you like in the Bible and ignore that which you do not. Fundies are to faith and religion what Republicans are to government.

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

"nothing in our Constitution to back it up"

Um, how about the right to privacy and to equal treatment?

Kate

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redsox_gw

Not just Fundies doing the cherry picking.

Ms. Davis is divorced so SHE MUST BE STONED! I love Bob Dylan in any case.

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labrea_gw

Not so much divorced as carrying the children of another man while still married to the other man that would be a bit more than divorced and bein pilloried for it! Just because Jesus forgives you doesn't mean the public will. Listened to one of the other clerks on Lawrence O'Donnell tonight man was blathering about state constitutions & god. He did suggest that people could come and get a license & bring it back after someone else solemnized the marriage. Now in NY the clerk who gives you a license is merely giving you a license with the instructions of have the duly authorized minister of judge send back the license with their State # on it and then the Licensing bureau send you a marriage certificate. I see that the issuer of a marriage license in Kentucky is not solemnizing anything so I'm missing something?

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fouquieria(10b)

"I spoke with Kim Davis this morning
to offer my prayers and support. I let her know how proud I am of her
for not abandoning her religious convictions and standing strong for
religious liberty. She is showing more courage and humility than just
about any federal office holder in Washington.

"Kim is asking the perfect question: 'Under what law am I authorized to
issue homosexual couples a marriage license?' That simple question is
giving many in Congress a civics lesson that they never got in grade
school.

"The Supreme Court cannot and did not make a law. They only made a
ruling on a law. Congress makes the laws. Because Congress has made no
law allowing for same sex marriage, Kim does not have the
Constitutional authority to issue a marriage license to homosexual
couples.

"Kim is a person of great conviction. When people of conviction fight
for what's right they often pay a price, but if they don't and we
surrender, we will pay a far greater price for bowing to the false God
of judicial supremacy. Government is not God. No man - and certainly no
unelected lawyer - has the right to redefine the laws of nature or of
nature's God. Five unelected lawyers have abused their power by ruling
in favor of a national right to same-sex marriage with no legal
precedent and with nothing in our Constitution to back it up. They have
violated American's most fundamental right guaranteed by our
Constitution - religious liberty.


MIKE HUCKABEE

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Did Congress pass a law allowing for opposite sex marriage?

Maybe Kim is right--no one should be allowed to be married.

Kate

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tibbrix

Why do I get the feeling that, if asked to back up her "religious belief" that is keeping her from doing her job by citing the Bible passage or the religious tenet, this dummy wouldn't be able to do so? Like the Repub who was all about Christian values and Jesus...but when asked to name the Ten Commandments, couldn't do it.

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mrskjun(9)

Thank you Carly Fiorina. The Supreme Court has ruled and Ms. Davis is a government employee who should follow the law or leave her job.

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labrea_gw

I don't believe she has to pass any tests or change a single thing about her faith she just needs to resign. There are hundreds of thousands of people who have faith but could never pass a written exam on any of it. For some it's a mystical experience that truly does involve the supernatural for others it rote. She does need to resign or the state needs to begin the process of accommodation it's that simple. If the state does that then it becomes subject to all manner of lawsuits.

Side note Focus on the Family has put out a video claiming that the reason gay people hate her is because they hate themselves & have life long pain.


This spokes thing was named worst person in the world years ago when he asked the faithful to pray for rain on an Obama rally in Denver. Prayer Wars since he believes in the power of prayer his prayers are based in (?)



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Iris GW

I can't believe that Mike Huckabee thinks he is even remotely electable as President! He represents only a small fringe group and surely he must realize that by now.

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mrskjun(9)

Which is probably the only reason he is running esh...for the platform.

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tibbrix

"labrea_gw

I don't believe she has to pass any tests or change a single thing about her faith she just needs to resign. There are hundreds of thousands of people who have faith but could never pass a written exam on any of it."


Disagree. She is taking a stand, affecting other people, and defying a court order, and is doing so by saying it is her religion that is preventing her from being a professional and doing her job. Whatever one's reasons for doing anything, or not doing anything, that person has to be able to, at the very least, back up their reasoning with a solid argument. If one can't do that, then they're just USING something else to rationalize their own ignorance, hate, whatever.

I agree that many people couldn't pass a written exam on, say, their faith's tenets, history, etc. But those people aren't taking a stand on something, and doing so publicly. If they ever do, they too should be made to back it up.

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momj47(7A)

Kim Davis's denial of same-sex marriage licenses is not what Jesus would do The Rev Broderick Greer

While Jesus opened himself to be changed by people who were different,
the Rowan County clerk is using religion as a social bludgeon

We Americans have a long tradition of using religion as a social
bludgeon. During the era of chattel enslavement, many white landowners
argued that the abolition of black enslavement would upend the created
order. During Jim Crow, racist politicians, clerics and civic leaders
argued that God desired racial segregation. Today, many of the same
arguments are being made by Christians in regards to marriage equality.

Just as it was with those who justified black enslavement, Jim Crow and
other horrific forms of institutional violence in the name of the
Christian God, so it is with Ms Davis. For some reason unbeknownst to
me, she is entitled to force God’s authority down the throats of
unwilling recipients. Her beliefs, however sincerely they may be held,
are antithetical to the spirit of Christ.

While Jesus opened himself to be changed by other people unlike himself,
Kim Davis is closing herself off to the possibility of allowing “the
other” to transform her. And this, according to various Christian
marriage liturgies, is a mockery of the spirit of matrimony. In it, the
partners offer themselves to one another, opening themselves to the risk
that comes with loving and being loved. In vows of vulnerability, the
two commit to seeking out the best interest of the one, reflecting what
they’ve experienced in the love of Jesus Christ.

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tibbrix

Kim Davis is projecting onto other people her own failures and is using religion to do so and to not have to take responsibility for her own failures.

That is all this is about, IMO.

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momj47(7A)

She certainly has a lot to atone for.

She hasn't even figured out heterosexual marriage.

I hate to think of what she'd done to her children.

From "Who's your daddy" to a bizarre life in an Apostolic Church

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jodik_gw

If conflating the two is bothersome, then offer proof that Jesus was a real person, Tibbrix. Simple.

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labrea_gw

According to Mike Huckabee, Kim Davis is perfectly free to disobey the Supreme Court until Kentucky changes its own marriage laws to align with the Obergefell ruling.

Kentucky’s top two legislative leaders repeated Wednesday their support for a special legislative session to pass legislation that would both resolve Rowan County Clerk Kim Davis’ ongoing conflict with the U.S. Supreme Court ruling legalizing gay marriage and to conform state law to that ruling. And one of those leaders, Senate President Robert Stivers, on Wednesday asked a federal judge to withhold action against Davis for her defiance of the ruling by denying marriage licenses to gay couples, until the Kentucky General Assembly can act. Stivers, a Manchester Republican, made his request in a brief filed with U.S. District Judge David Bunning, who is to preside Thursday at a hearing in federal court in Ashland on whether to hold Davis in contempt of court. While Stivers’ brief was being filed, both he and House Speaker Greg Stumbo, D-Prestonsburg, were holding an impromptu news conference in Frankfort in which both repeated recent statements that they support a special session. But because Gov. Steve Beshear is the only person who can call a special session, and Beshear has made clear he will not do so, Stivers and Stumbo agreed that the issue will likely have to wait until the next regular session begins in January.

Wingnuts have long demanded a special legislative session in order to pass a law that would allow state officials to bow out of same-sex marriage duties. Any such law would, of course, face an immediate challenge and drag on & on and play state by state.

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foodonastump

Offer proof that Alexander the Great was a real person and that Denali was called Denali 10k years ago. This was fun yesterday but do we really need another day of derailing crap on this thread?

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tibbrix

jodik_gw

If conflating the two is bothersome, then offer proof that Jesus was a real person, Tibbrix. Simple.

No, jodi, you're still not understanding. And you continue to conflate the two. You're argument is that, UNLESS he's the son of God, which can't be proved, then he didn't exist.


feel free to argue that he, the man, didn't exist, OR that he is or is not a messiah, but stop conflating the two in the context of this discussion.

Again, it's like saying that the only proof that George Washington existed is that he was president, chopped down a cherry tree, etc. No, he existed DESPITE those things.

Not sure why anyone needs to feel Jesus, the man, never even existed. Of course he did. Unless you think there was a collective and unrelated group of loons who all just happened to speak of him and keep a written record of him. Prove Caesar existed. Prove anyone existed, for that matter.


I think those who argue JC didn't exist are like those who insist the holocaust never happened: their motives are political and are meant to simply further their real agenda of, in this case, condemning religion. But whether JC existed or not has nothing to do with that, which is what you're not understanding.


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jillinnj

Yesterday, my husband suggested she try marrying a woman. The marrying a guy thing is not working out for her. Funny!

At first I thought the increasing fine was a good idea. But, she will just set up one of those web pages where her supporters can will donate $$ to pay the fines. For a while at least. Now I think jail is much better.

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tibbrix

Lol Jill.

I think these anti-gay marriage heteros are worried because smart women WOULD marry a gay man! Lol. I'm all for gay marriage because, in my next life, I have every intention of marrying a gay man!

Kim here would probably have her only successful marriage if she were to marry a gay guy.

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foodonastump

Jill - I was having a similar thought, and looked to see if she had a gofundme site going yet. Didn't find one. Maybe the county can donate collected fines to go towards a honeymoon for the couple when they're finally married, a good will restitution for emotional damages?

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momj47(7A)

The problem she's going to have with raising money is that she's a Democrat, and the people who would support her are all RWNJ's.

Their god says they can't support a Democrat.

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ann_t

The RWNJ will probably support her and then ask for forgiveness from their God after the fact. I think it was Mrsk that implied recently that a sinner can pretty much fall short everyday and god will still forgive.

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david52 Zone 6

There was a piece on her this morning on NPR, she shows up for work, heads to her office, draws the blinds and locks the door, leaving dozens of shouting people wanting marriage licenses and the press shouting questions outside at the counter. One of the interviewees opined much the same as this forum - its your job, lady. Do it or quit.

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jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)(9b)

she shows up for work, heads to her office, draws the blinds and locks the door,

Aw, cut her some slack. She's probably praying.

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ohiomom

......so basically she sits in her office doing nothing but getting a pay check, nice work if you can get it.

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momj47(7A)

….so basically she sits in her office doing nothing

I'm sure she prays. And takes phone calls from RW supporters.

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Ichabod Crane

I suddenly had a thought: what do you think would happen if a county clerk, somewhere in say, Kentucky or Kansas, refused to give out gun permits?

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ohiomom

And SOME folks are outraged that people receive food stamps, but no outrage for a woman making 80K a year literally sitting on her butt doing nothing. SMH

That aint gonna happen Ichabod, these folks are only interested in legislating that three letter word (sex) ... kind of creepy if ya ask me.

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jodik_gw

What difference could it possibly make whether or not I believe a figure related to religion existed or not? Can you tell me why this is such a point of contention with you, Tibbrix?

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tibbrix

I explained that above, jodi. In your case it doesn't matter. I'm simply addressing your conflating the two issues. That's all. As for a point of contention for me, it wasn't me who brought it up. It was mom, who referred to him as someone's "imaginary friend", which is derogatory. I've said, over and over, here, that I have full respect for atheists, etc. But people who have faith don't have an "imaginary friend". They have FAITH, and the very nature of FAITH is that it can't be proven or shown. That's why it's called faith.


But whether you believe Jesus was a messiah or not is not relevant, and I could care less whether anyone does or not. But to say the man didn't even exist IS offensive, esp. to someone like myself who, as stated above, was raised by someone and around people who devoted their lives to helping other people based on the teachings of this man some say never even existed and refer to as an "imaginary friend" to nutcase.

Yes, that is offensive.

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momj47(7A)

The Bible clearly states"


2 Corinthians 6:14 King James Version (KJV)

Be
ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship
hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light
with darkness?

Have Ms. Davis, and the two other clerks who won't issue licenses, queried applicants about the state of their souls?

This is much clearer than any Biblical reference to marriage equality.

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momj47(7A)

Defiant Kentucky clerk could be found in contempt Thursday

Breaking: Kentucky clerk ordered to jail for contempt of court

A county clerk who refused to issue marriage licenses to same-sex
couples was found in contempt of court Thursday and taken into custody.

“The
idea of natural law superceding this court’s authority would be a
dangerous precedent indeed,” U.S. District Judge David L. Bunning told
Rowan County clerk Kim Davis.

“Thank you, judge,” she replied before being removed from the courtroom by U.S. marshals.

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tibbrix

Good.

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jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)(9b)

I read somewhere that the other two clerks have been willing to issue licenses from day one. Don't have a source to confirm that though. If it's true the licenses should be flowing very soon.

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momj47(7A)

They don't get it, do they?

Elsewhere in Kentucky, politicians scrambled in an effort to defuse the situation. Earlier in the week, Republican and Democratic leaders in Frankfort reiterated calls
for a compromise that would allow gay couples to get marriage licenses
in Rowan County without forcing Davis to violate her faith. In a court
motion, Kentucky Senate President Robert Stivers asked Bunning not to
hold Davis in contempt until the legislature could address confusion in
state law resulting from the legalization of same-sex marriage.

The
legislature is not slated to convene until next year, however, and Gov.
Steve Beshear (D) has resisted calls to hold a special session to
address the issue.

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jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)(9b)

ACLU of Kentucky @ACLUofKY 8m8 minutes ago
Court is in recess, hearing resumes at 1:45pm. with Rowan County deputy clerks. Our presser will take place after ALL of today's proceedings
At that time, the deputy clerks must state whether they will issue licences or join her in jail.

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jodik_gw

I'm glad to see that the court is upholding the law.

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foodonastump

I'll be even more glad if the deputies stand up for what's right.

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ohiomom

Me too food, me too.

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labrea_gw

Three of the six deputy clerks in Rowan County have decided that they don’t want to follow their boss into jail and will issue marriage licenses. After Kim Davis was led out of court in the custody of federal marshals, Judge David Bunning called the six deputy clerks back in to decide their own fates.


Member's of her sect protest women dress modestly wear no jewelry & do not cut their hair.

of course the courts are going to want to know what she founds her beliefs on & practically speaking we would want a person to know what they are talking about but it's never been a requirement of faith. Belief without seeing acceptance without question William James was interested in this position.

Anyway someone will now start a go fund me! Perhaps there may even be a je suis Kim Davis ruffle here & there but I doubt it strongly! So many of the AFA & FRC types were predicting revolution mass exodus from the US & nah. Same after DADT was repealed & nah!

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Pidge(Zone 6)

She’ll now be perceived by some as a martyr.

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tibbrix

You have to die to be a martyr.

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jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)(9b)

Five out of six clerks will issue licenses. (Why does this county need 6 clerks?) The holdout is her son. (How did he get a clerk job - isn't that nepotism?) I think they have more problems in this county than we know about!


http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2015/09/03/rowan-county-ky-court-clerk-marriage-licenses-gays/71635794/

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Pidge(Zone 6)

You’re right , Tibb, and I should have made clear that I was using the metaphorically, not literally.


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jodik_gw

It would appear that the county is run more as a family business... wasn't her mother the county clerk before her? And her son is also a clerk? I think you're right, Jerzee... there are other issues that should probably be addressed in that county.

I'm just glad the law prevailed. A county clerk should not have the power to take away a person's civil rights.



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tibbrix

I know, Pidge, and I should have added that those you're referring to probably don't even know one has to die to be a martyr, just stubborn!

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jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)(9b)

23,527 (2013) is the population of Rowan County KY. Why do they need 6 clerks??????

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duluthinbloomz4

She'll be a "martyr" to her cause. And it's an ignorant one at that.

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jodik_gw

Good question, Jerzee.

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ohiomom

So the NYT says she was a local fixture who is now a national symbol? SOME people call her a martyr? tibbrix is right ... she aint dead and for the NYT....she aint one of them.


This is a list of official National symbols of the United States.

Flag of the United States

Seal of the United States

National bird: Bald eagle

National animal: Bald eagle

National anthem: "The Star-Spangled Banner"

National mottos: "In God We Trust",[1] "E Pluribus Unum"

National floral emblem: Rose[2]

National march: "The Stars and Stripes Forever"[3]

National creed: American's Creed

National tree: Oak

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labrea_gw

Lot of love down there for Kim!


If AIDS is God's punishment for sex, why is a little piece of rubber so effective at preventing it? Are all sins absolved when committed in conjunction with rubber, or just those related to sex?


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labrea_gw

“Today, judicial lawlessness crossed into judicial tyranny. Today, for the first time ever, the government arrested a Christian woman for living according to her faith. This is wrong. This is not America. I stand with Kim Davis. Unequivocally. I stand with every American that the Obama Administration is trying to force to chose between honoring his or her faith or complying with a lawless court opinion. Those who are persecuting Kim Davis believe that Christians should not serve in public office. That is the consequence of their position. Or, if Christians do serve in public office, they must disregard their religious faith–or be sent to jail. Kim Davis should not be in jail. We are a country founded on Judeo-Christian values, founded by those fleeing religious oppression and seeking a land where we could worship God and live according to our faith, without being imprisoned for doing so. I call upon every Believer, every Constitutionalist, every lover of liberty to stand with Kim Davis. Stop the persecution now.” – Ted Cruz, via press release.


This is a lawyer supposedly a Constitutional one! Another Dominionist!

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momj47(7A)

Ted Cruz AND God must be so proud.

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ohiomom

The whole thing is political theater and not very good theater at that ....

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labrea_gw

Yeah well.

After five of her six deputy clerks agreed to issue marriage licenses, Kim Davis was called back to the courtroom of Judge David Bunning, who offered to set her free if she would allow her staffers to perform their duties. Davis refused and was taken back out of the courthouse in the custody of federal marshals. So given a route out she rejects the offer to allow others to perform that task...on of the clerks who spoke on Lawrence O'Donnell's show last night said that state legislature might be able to offer a remedy whereby she didn't have to affix her name to these documents clearly that is not the case so why wait for a states legislature to be in session for somethin that has already been decided nationally!

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socks(10a)

I think she is foolish to push it so far as to be jailed. Putting herself, her family, church and friends through so much stress just to make a point. The law stands, and this protesting won't change that.

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tibbrix

Pretty ironic that it's the same right wing shrieking with terror about Sharia Law taking over the US even as they try to impose their "Christian law" on everyone.


Anyone who is too stupid to know how LUCKY they are to live in a secular society and have a secular government is too stupid to work for that government....so naturally they get hired.


Grrrrr.....

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Ichabod Crane

Wait...our national bird AND animal is the eagle?

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jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)(9b)

Speaking about God, I assume that this woman took an oath when she took office. I am sure she put her hand on the Bible and swore to God to uphold the law. Why is it now okay to break the oath she swore to? Wouldn't God be angry at her? Why did she swear to something she knew she couldn't uphold?

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ohiomom

According to wiki Ichabod ...

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Pidge(Zone 6)

If there were a god, I would have to pat her or him on the head and say, “Why did you create gay people if you wanted other people to treat them in such an ugly way?” Has this woman got a clue about what kind of god she professes to follow? She/he creates people other people should hate? Too weird.

I was watching a film of her speaking to the two guys who wanted the marriage license. I’m not a lip-reading expert, but she appeared to be saying that the constitution was founded on faith. Did anyone else see this clip? If what I think I saw is in fact the case, this woman needs a Civics lesson.

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jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)(9b)

If only a civics lesson would correct her mistaken notions. Unfortunately, when a person is making stuff up, anything goes.

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enmc

Kentucky Clerk Kim Davis Is About to Get Filthy Rich

It's Who Wants to Be A Millionaire? time down at the federal courthouse.

She may not realize it at the moment, although I suspect she has realized it all along, but Kim Davis just became a political television star and a very rich lady besides.

The clerk, Kim Davis of Rowan County, was ordered incarcerated after a hearing here before Judge David L. Bunning of Federal District Court. The contempt finding was another legal defeat for Ms. Davis, who has argued that she should not be forced to issue licenses that conflict with her religious beliefs. "The court cannot condone the willful disobedience of its lawfully issued order," Judge Bunning said. "If you give people the opportunity to choose which orders they follow, that's what potentially causes problems."

Dear Judge Bunning: Thanks for nothing.

Let me explain to you what happens now. The entire political communications apparatus of the wingnut welfare system goes to DefCon 1. (Judge Bunning's e-mail is going to get very entertainingly unchristian, I suspect.) Kim Davis now becomes the latest ornament on the Hang Yourself Cross of Bible-banging victimhood. There will be marches and vigils. There will be a six-figure book deal; my money's on John Fund as Davis's ghost. There may even be one of those movies produced by gullibility trawlers like the one helmed by Rick Santorum. Anybody want to bet me that she doesn't speak at next year's Republican National Convention? You have made a star, Judge Bunning, and the rest of us have to live with her.

Ms. Davis has said little amid her legal battle, but in a statement her lawyers released on Tuesday, she said she would not change her position. "I never imagined a day like this would come, where I would be asked to violate a central teaching of Scripture and of Jesus himself regarding marriage," she said in the statement. "To issue a marriage license which conflicts with God's definition of marriage, with my name affixed to the certificate, would violate my conscience. It is not a light issue for me. It is a heaven or hell decision."

The fact that the law and common sense—to say nothing of the notion that you should do the damn job you get paid a salary to do—are lined up behind Judge Bunning doesn't matter a damn to the people inside the bubble. Only two contenders for president on the Republican side have made the quite reasonable argument that Davis should do the job she swore an oath (to God!) to do, or quit the job because her conscience demands it. Now that she's tossed into the sneezer, I expect to hear at least some backing and filling from both Carly Fiorina and Lindsey Graham.

Stardom awaits behind those bars, Kim. I do wonder about one thing, though. Suppose Davis announced that it was against her conscience and God's authority for her to submit to Judge's Bunning's authority and go to jail. Could she go home, then?

More Politics





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Pidge(Zone 6)

enmc, your final paragraph takes this religious charade to a new level.


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enmc

She did, indeed, take an oath, jerzeegirl

Not Even the Bible Can Protect Kim Davis. Here's Why.

You know what happens when you take an oath?

Just so we're all on the same page, Kim Davis, the clerk down there in Rowan County, Kentucky, who is gussying up her Professional Victim resume by refusing to do the job she was elected to do, had to take an oath when she took office. Here it is.

"I, ....., do swear that I will well and truly discharge the duties of the office of .............. County Circuit Court clerk, according to the best of my skill and judgment, making the due entries and records of all orders, judgments, decrees, opinions and proceedings of the court, and carefully filing and preserving in my office all books and papers which come to my possession by virtue of my office; and that I will not knowingly or willingly commit any malfeasance of office, and will faithfully execute the duties of my office without favor, affection or partiality, so help me God."

That last line seems pretty clear to me. But, just to be sure, let's check with Deuteronomy.

When thou shalt vow a vow unto the LORD thy God, thou shalt not slack to pay it: for the LORD thy God will surely require it of thee; and it would be sin in thee. (23:21-23).

Or Numbers.

If a man vow a vow unto the LORD, or swear an oath to bind his soul with a bond; he shall not break his word, he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth. (30:2).

Maybe she's just hanging her hat on Matthew 5: 33-37, where Jesus tells his followers not to swear oaths of any kind, but that puts her on the fightin' side of the Lord any time she takes an oath of office. Maybe she's confused. But if you're on the wrong side of theocracy from Antonin (Short Time) Scalia, you are a sheep who has left the fold far behind.

He has, after all, taken an oath to apply the laws and has been given no power to supplant them with rules of his own. Of course if he feels strongly enough he can go beyond mere resignation and lead a political campaign to abolish the death penalty" and if that fails, lead a revolution. But rewrite the laws he cannot do.

Or maybe she's just a self-important busybody taking her bigotry out for a walk on the news.

;)


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labrea_gw

Judge is saying anyone who gets married with licenses not signed by Davis will be doing so at their own risk. Rand Paul of course is defending Davis another closet dominionist!

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momj47(7A)

The State Legislature isn't scheduled to meet again until next year, and I believe they are the only ones who can remove her from office.

She could be in jail for a long time.

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foodonastump

If there's going to be a collection taken up for her, it won't be on gofundme. They recently updated their terms, in the wake of some recent campaigns, to disallow...


Campaigns in defense of formal charges or claims of heinous crimes, violent, hateful, sexual or discriminatory acts

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huachuma

Merriam-Webster's definition of Martyr.

: a person who is killed or who suffers greatly for a religion, cause, etc.

: a person who pretends to suffer or who exaggerates suffering in order to get praise or sympathy

: a person who suffers greatly from something (such as an illness)

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chase_gw

I'm taking door number 2....

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ann_t

She is breaking the law by refusing to issue Marriage Licenses. Is it legal to demand that others also break the law?

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Judge is saying anyone who gets married with licenses not signed by Davis will be doing so at their own risk

So this one woman effectively shuts down all marriage licenses for her county.

And we have Huckabee, Rand Paul, Bryan Fischer / AFA, and FRC supporting Davis. Who else among the GOP's conservative base will be joining the spectacle.

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jillinnj

I was happy to hear the judge put her in jail. And I was happy to read that he didn't impose an increasing fine because he said her supporters would fund the fines. Yay Judge!

Also, happy to see GoFundMe changed their rules. Good for them!

I really hope this idiot just fades into the background and does not get rich from this. In fact, I hope she suffers financially.

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elvis

"23,527 (2013) is the population of Rowan County KY. Why do they need 6 clerks??????"

I wondered about that too,. Our County Clerk has one deputy. But we also have a Tax Listing Department & Register of Deeds. In Kentucky, the County Clerk has those duties, in addition to the usual licensing, etc. The County Clerk in Kentucky also registers motor vehicles, which seems crazy to me. Our DMV does that. So I guess they need a lot of deputies. Also, the Clerk doesn't get to decide on that, a Fiscal Court does, so.

Source

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momj47(7A)

Looks like she may be realizing what the consequences really are, now.

I wouldn't wish this on anybody.

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jillinnj

Sorry, but I feel no sympathy for this woman. Not one bit. She brought this on herself. She didn't have to. She deserves what she gets.

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enmc

Same here.

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patriciae_gw(07)

Or we could recognize this as a sort of insanity-sanctioned by religious cult groups that encourage people to act this way. it is the exact same sort of cultism that feeds the insanity in the Middle East and so many people die for now and in history. We are so susceptible to this sort of lunacy. It is the madness that empowers Sharia law. If you could only make this woman see that she is no different than any other religious nut of any other cult but it is hopeless. We can only keep a lid on it and not encourage it.

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elvis

Well thank goodness they don't do orange at that jail. Sea foam is a good color for her.

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enmc

We are so susceptible to this sort of lunacy

yes. we are.

and many of the current crop of rwnj lunatics running for pres are actively encouraging and exploiting this sort of thing.

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labrea_gw

Liberty Counsel knew that this is where this has been going they thought there would be more she's the match they lit & they are looking for kindling. Sam politicians saying the same things. Thousands of counties across the US filed with people of a lot of different faith doing their jobs no separate but equal. Not insults being hailed about forces of evil ruled by demonic spirits. Stop that nonsense. Nom & and all the other orgs have their money begs out! This will really bring the bucks in!


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ohiomom

US filed with people of a lot of different faith doing their jobs no separate but equal. Not insults being hailed about forces of evil ruled by demonic spirits

.....exactly!

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jodik_gw

It's just one media driven spectacle after another in this country. It's gotten to the point of ridiculousness.

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labrea_gw

NOM now that they are even less relevant than they already had been still defies the courts after years of appeals & maneuvers in disclosing their donor lists has organized a rally for her. Brian Brown needs to jeep his salary going he's got a lot of mouths to feed.

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tibbrix

I stand corrected on the meaning "martyr". Ty to huachuma.

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tibbrix

agree, jodi. Vapidity and vacuousness reign in the US now. Ugh.


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labrea_gw

Heads explode Westboro denounces her as an adulterer & says she is as much responsible for this as the gay rights organizations. Free Republic is outraged when aren't they, Ben Shapiro on Breitbart continues to be a dweeb comments over on Red State sort of have the flavor the Supreme Court is only The Supreme Court when deciding that money is free speech!

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tibbrix

***Jodik, will you please message me***

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ann_t

Kentucky county issues same-sex marriage licences a day after Kim Davis is sent to jail cell

LINK

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momj47(7A)

See, that wasn't hard.

And nothing cosmic happened, to anyone else

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tibbrix

I don't know, mom. I bet hetero marriages all over Kentucky are falling apart like dominoes, that locusts are packing up and heading out now to invade Kentucky...and of course, if there is a major weather event in Kentucky, it will no doubt be God's wrath and punishment for two people being in love and getting married so they can have a family. Everyone knows God hates that.

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tibbrix
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labrea_gw

I'm concerned for her because according to Ben Carson many people go into prison straight & come out gay! He should know he's a doctor.

"A lot of people who go into prison straight, and when they come out they’re gay."

on Wednesday, March 4th, 2015 in an interview on CNN.

Sad on so many levels! Particularly sexual violence committed against inmates by prison staff & other inmates. In Michigan teens were mixed with adult population and this unwanted violence occurred



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Ichabod Crane

Well, according to Pat Robertson, the stock market plunge was caused by all of this.

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labrea_gw

Yes he would say that and he's losing money the price of gold his gold mines

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labrea_gw

Trump weighed in!

“Well, look, the decision came down from the Supreme Court, Gene, so I’m a believer on both sides of the picture. I would say the simple answer is let her clerks do it. Now from what I understand, she’s not letting her clerks do it either. The other simple answer is rather than going through this because it’s really a very, very sticky situation, a terrible situation, 30 miles away they have other places. They have many other places where you get licensed. and you have them actually quite nearby. That’s another alternative. I hate to see her being put in jail. I understand what they’re doing. It would be certainly nice if she didn’t do it but other people in her office do it. But from what I understand, she won’t allow other people in her office to do it. You have to go with it. I mean you have to go with it. The decision has been made, and that is the law of the land.”

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ann_t

He is so articulate. NOT!!!!

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duluthinbloomz4

With Kim Davis out of the picture for the moment, marriage licenses are being issued at the Rowan County Court House .

FTA: "William Smith Jr. and James Yates, a couple for nearly a decade, were the first to receive a marriage license Friday morning in Rowan County. Deputy clerk Brian Mason issued the license, congratulating the couple and shaking their hands as he smiled."

http://news.yahoo.com/gay-couples-try-wed-defiant-clerk-sits-jail-082850785.html#

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redsox_gw

30 miles away? Good thing that was not suggested for desegregation. Oh, wait, we are already doing that in Kentucky.

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momj47(7A)

I don't know, mom. I bet hetero marriages all over Kentucky are falling
apart like dominoes, that locusts are packing up and heading out now to
invade Kentucky...and of course, if there is a major weather event in
Kentucky, it will no doubt be God's wrath and punishment for two people
being in love and getting married so they can have a family. Everyone
knows God hates that.

LOL. We are all waiting.

***************************************

‘He has guts': David Bunning, the same-sex marriage decision’s unlikely enforcer

The judge, Jim Bunning's son.

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patriciae_gw(07)

I think we can take away something positive in all this. Plenty of people have had to think about it now. I clearly remember a time when it had never even occurred to me that same sex people would want to legally marry. I would have had no problem with it but it had just never crossed my mind in my insular world of not dealing with the issues of same sex relationships. I have had plenty of gay friends. What was wrong with me? I was just being thoughtless. Well no one can say that now. We have all been face to face with the issue and had to make a decision. I think most people these days will come down on the side of equal rights now that they realize it is rights that are at stake. You don't have to like same sex relationships and you don't have approve of them, you only have to decide if LGBT's have rights as well.

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labrea_gw

What I take away from this is my life is always in jeopardy at the whim of a majority that may turn at any time. Those who forget history are condemned to repeat it. Equality was written into the Russian Constitution where is it today?

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patriciae_gw(07)

I am sorry labrea, of course you are right. As a woman I have seen my rights eroded and taken away as well. Still, more people have had to actually think through what they believe.

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jodik_gw

At the end of the day, religion doesn't trump federal law. You can't use the government to force your brand of religion on anyone else, and that's what this woman is trying to do. She's not a martyr. She just another ignorant individual.

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jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)(9b)

At the end of the day, religion doesn't trump federal law. Except when it comes to the Affordable Care Act.

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Unfortunately.

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ohiomom

Question? These licences have no signature, will they be valid?

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duluthinbloomz4

According to the applicants' lawyers, they're valid. Another school of thought is chances are being taken as to validity. Thought one of her staff was issuing and signing them... but there's such a blizzard of reportage, some detail gets lost.

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ohiomom

So they are signed? I hope they are valid.

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jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)(9b)

I can't imagine that they wouldn't be valid. Those are her deputies. They are deputized to do the same work she does. I mean what happens if a clerk dies? Does no one get any sort of license? If I were a clerk in the office, I would use her signature stamp and sign for her. She has no authority to not do her job so I figure there is little risk.

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labrea_gw

She did not authorize tem to sign them!

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jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)(9b)

I honestly don't think it matters. If that were the case, if a clerk died, no one would be able to conduct business in Rowan County. The only way she can not give her deputies the authority is if she resigns. I would argue that because she is voluntarily continuing to draw a paycheck that she really is acquiescing to the laws of the land and the oath she took to follow them.

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ann_t

Isn't she breaking the law by refusing to issue marriage licenses? And can she actually demand that her staff also break the law? Isn't there a law against that too? If not there should be.

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ohiomom

Labrea that part bothers me ... she is claiming they are not valid, not that I think she has the final word (at least I hope not). I would just hate for those couples who waited so long to find out they were not married after the fact.

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Here is the latest info I can find:

" At least three gay couples received marriage licenses Friday from one of Davis' deputies, embracing and celebrating after repeatedly being turned away before Davis was jailed on Thursday. Their attorneys, along with Rowan County Attorney Cecil Watkins, said the licenses are valid. [U.S. Disctrict Judge] Bunning said Thursday he did not know if the licenses were valid but ordered them to be issued anyway. . . . When the judge was asked if the licenses will be considered valid without Davis' authorization, he said it was up to the gay couples to take that chance."

Hmmm--not too encouraging.

Kate

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

It's one thing for Davis to decide that she cannot in good conscience issue the marriage licenses, and be prepared to suffer the consequences. She's made a huge step over the line when she stops anyone else in her office from issuing the licenses. At this point she's advocating theocracy; NO OTHER EMPLOYEE can act against her religion.

Pffft!

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elvis

"Question? These licences have no signature, will they be valid?"

If it was me getting married, I wouldn't take that chance that the license might not be valid. I'd go someplace else and get my license. This County Clerk will be dealt with, I sure wouldn't let her rain on my parade.

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ohiomom

I'd go someplace else and get my license.

So even though they live, work and pay taxes in Rowan County they should just "go someplace else" to get their license. How bout' someone tells you at your country courthouse to "go someplace else" for whatever reason they pick?

Guess if it aint us it don't matter much ...

SMH

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chase_gw

They got what they needed, deserved and are entitled to,,,,,,,official regognition that their union is valid ......signatures be dammed.

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foodonastump

Unfortunately I agree with Elvis. What if they're deemed not valid. Then they go somewhere else. "Somewhere else" may require special documentation to prove they're not married. Sounds ridiculous but this is govermrnt we're talking about. i seem to recall and old lady who couldn't prove she was born, on a voter reg discussion. Or something like that. My cousin just went through a lot of red tape because a clerk put the wrong date on a divorce doc, which made it look like he had two wives at the same time. This is beurocracy we're talking about, not brain surgery.

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ohiomom

No no no ... not trying to give you and Elvis a hard time, but it is not enough to receive "recognition" or be able to "go someplace else" .... these couples live, work and pay taxes in that county and they are entitled to the same rights and privileges as any other citizen of that county. There was a time when my late husband and I would have been turned away by a county (any county) court clerk so maybe I see this equal rights issue on a personal level.

Be honest y'all would have a fit and head for the nearest lawyer if you (generic you) were turned away for someone else's beliefs/whims.



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elvis

Of course I'd be pissed off, Ohio. I work for the government, and as far as I'm concerned, I'm there to serve. We may be a dying breed, however.

Anyway, what's going on with the county clerk is one thing, practicality in this case is quite another, IMO. If you want something done, take care of it. The deal with the clerk will shake out but in the meantime, if there are plans to make, I would just go ahead and deal with the inconvenience to make sure I get what I need.

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ohiomom

Hitting head on keyboard.

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foodonastump

I totally hear you, OM. I guess if I wanted to make a point, be part of the protest, etc. then I'd insist on getting married there. If I was just in love and for whatever reason really wanted to get married TODAY rather than wait for things to shake out, then I'd take a drive. Neither way is wrong IMO, just a state of mind. As I'm typing this, I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of a gay person who has waited a lifetime for this right, only to have some dumb clerk try to trip me on my walk to happiness. Yeah, I guess I'd fight and protest.

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chase_gw

Me too OM......me too.

My DH and I were married in Jamaica. ......we took steps to ensure the union was legal in Canada.....after all it was not my country......I was not a citizen.

It is totally unacceptable to me that, as a citizen of Canada, I would have to go to any length to ensure the validity of my legal marriage more so than any other citizen.

To even suggest that one should do that is just plain wrong.

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don_socal

elvis

"Question? These licences have no signature, will they be valid?"
If it was me getting married, I wouldn't take that chance that the
license might not be valid. I'd go someplace else and get my license.
This County Clerk will be dealt with, I sure wouldn't let her rain on my
parade.

ohiomom

I'd go someplace else and get my license.

So even though they live, work and pay taxes in Rowan County they
should just "go someplace else" to get their license. How bout'
someone tells you at your country courthouse to "go someplace else" for
whatever reason they pick?

Guess if it aint us it don't matter much ...

SMH

foodonastump

Unfortunately
I agree with Elvis. What if they're deemed not valid. Then they go
somewhere else. "Somewhere else" may require special documentation to
prove they're not married. Sounds ridiculous but this is govermrnt we're
talking about. i seem to recall and old lady who couldn't prove she was
born, on a voter reg discussion. Or something like that. My cousin just
went through a lot of red tape because a clerk put the wrong date on a
divorce doc, which made it look like he had two wives at the same time.
This is beurocracy we're talking about, not brain surgery.

ohiomom

No
no no ... not trying to give you and Elvis a hard time, but it is not
enough to receive "recognition" or be able to "go someplace else" ....
these couples live, work and pay taxes in that county and they are
entitled to the same rights and privileges as any other citizen of that
county. There was a time when my late husband and I would have been
turned away by a county (any county) court clerk so maybe I see this
equal rights issue on a personal level.

Be honest y'all would have a fit and head for the nearest lawyer if
you (generic you) were turned away for someone else's beliefs/whims.

elvis

Of course I'd be pissed off, Ohio. I work for the government, and as far as I'm concerned, I'm there to serve. We may be a dying breed, however.

Anyway, what's going on with the county clerk is one thing,
practicality in this case is quite another, IMO. If you want something
done, take care of it. The deal with the clerk will shake out but in
the meantime, if there are plans to make, I would just go ahead and deal
with the inconvenience to make sure I get what I need.]

ohiomom

Hitting head on keyboard.

The deal will shake out when it is brought to the attention of the court, that is what is happening.

edit was putting it together when food and chase were posting.

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jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)(9b)

I am not sure I would want that horrid woman's signature on my marriage license anyway.

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Iris GW

Somebody needed to press the issue.

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elvis

Of course, Esh. I agree with that. Just sayin' right now, today, I would get my license elsewhere. The question I addressed was whether or not the unsigned licenses are legal, not whether I would object to the whole situation in the first place. We've moved on, the issue is pressed. If I want a license, I go to a different county and get that license and move on. What's going on with her moves on separately. I can be part of the protest without making myself her victim.

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jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)(9b)

This is from the Kentucky Revised Statutes. Look at section C.

402.1 00 Marriage license

-Marriage certificate

--

Confidentiality of Social

Security numbers.

Each county clerk shall use the form prescribed by the Department for Libraries and Archives when issuing a marriage license. This form shall provide for the

entering of all of the information required in this section, and may also provide for the entering of additional information prescribed by the Department for Libraries and Archives. The form shall consist of:

(1)

A marriage license which provides for the entering of:

(a)

An authorization statement of the county clerk issuing the license for any

person or religious society authorized to perform marriage ceremonies to unite

in marriage the persons named;

(b)

Vital information for each party, including the full nam

e, date of birth, place

of birth, race, condition (single, widowed, or divorced), number of previous

marriages, occupation, current residence, relationship to the other party, and

full names of parents; and

(c)

The date and place the license is issued, and

the signature of the county clerk or deputy clerk issuing the license

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elvis

But! If the clerk didn't instruct the deputy to sign the license is it valid?

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patriciae_gw(07)

Main clerk wakes up with a temp of 103 vomiting with total body ache unable to drive and no voice. Does the work of the court house come to a grinding halt until the clerk can come back to work? Some how I believe there is a normal work around for this.

The people fighting this woman are sacrificing their comfort for the greater good. They deserve medals. It isn't just about being gay, it is about civil rights and we are all affected.

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chase_gw

" Just sayin' right now, today, I would get my license elsewhere."

,,,,,,,and yesterday I would have gone cross town to have a soda.

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jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)(9b)

So the clerk can never go on vacation without her deputies calling to get permission? If any of those clerks signed marriage licenses in the past without having to consult her, then precedent would have been set. It doesn't say anything in the statute about getting her permission. All it says is "either the county clerk or deputy clerk". That's what a deputy is - someone who acts in lieu of the head of the department.

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momj47(7A)

The best response now might be for anyone who wants a license to go to another county, if possible, while Ms. Davis sits in jail.

The clerks probably don't give many marriage licenses anyway. Rowan is not a big county.

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momj47(7A)

Rowan County Clerk Kim Davis Terrorized Staff

In an interview with the Kentucky Trial Court Review, Rowan County Attorney Cecil Watkins explains that the deputy clerks in Kim Davis’ office wanted to obey the law and issue same-sex marriage licenses, but they were too afraid of their boss to come forward and say so.

The following is an excerpt from a report on the interview with Watkins posted to the Kentucky Trial Court Review Facebook page:

Watkins indicates that Kim Davis “does not represent” Rowan County and is not representative of its inclusive values. From day one, Watkins told Davis “I will not and cannot support you” in her defiance of the law. Not only that he was clear he would not represent her as the law in the case of same sex marriage is clear. While he has no stance on same sex marriage, well-established federal law must be followed. Watkins wanted to emphasize several other things. First that everyone who works at the courthouse has endured cursing as they enter the building. And it’s not just at her office. Everyone in the courthouse is scared to come to work. Second that Liberty Counsel will leave Kim Davis high and dry when this charade is over. Watkins thinks the funds they raise off the case should go to Rowan County. Finally and most importantly he has learned that deputy clerks would issue lawful marriage licenses. They are simply afraid to do so. And if Judge Bunning instructs them to do so . . . they will. Davis has put, in the words of Watkins, her employees and everyone in the courthouse in a “terrible position.”

Also, the point that Davis is being exploited and victimized by anti-gay conservative Christian interest groups is one that needs to be made. Davis may be an ignorant bigot, but the Liberty Counsel, Republican politicians, and other anti-gay interests are exploiting and manipulating Davis for their own ends.

Ed. Note – The takeaways from the Watkins interview are clear. Davis is acting alone in her zealous mission. Her conduct has terrorized not just her staff but everyone that works in the courthouse. And all for a foolish mission aided by out of state charlatan lawyers trying to raise money for their “religious liberty” mission.

Shannon Ragland

Kentucky Trial Court Review

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labrea_gw

A Texas county will pay $44,000 to settle a civil rights lawsuit over its clerk's refusal to issue a gay couple a marriage license for religious reasons, the couple's attorneys said.
James Cato and Joe Stapleton, of Granbury, sued Hood County Clerk Katie Lang in Federal Court on July 6 after she repeatedly refused to issue them a license . The men applied after the U.S. Supreme Court's landmark ruling in Obergefell v. Hodges on June 26 struck down state bans on same-sex marriage.
Obergefell invalidated a voter-approved 2005 amendment to the Texas Constitution that defined marriage between a man and a woman.
Hood County's seat, Granbury, is about 40 miles southwest of Fort Worth.
The men said they were "humiliated" by Lang and her staff, who had six deputies sent to guard the office during their latest attempt to get married.
Lang publicly blasted the Supreme Court for "newly inventing" a constitutional right to gay marriage. She cited a June 28 nonbinding opinion by Attorney General Ken Paxton, who urged county clerks and justices of the peace not to issue licenses or perform same-sex marriages if they had religious objections.
Lang then changed her mind, saying her employees could issue same-sex marriage licenses when her office received updated forms from the state. When she turned the plaintiffs away again claiming, there would be a three-week delay in receiving the updated forms, the men sued. Within hours, Lang issued them a marriage license on the office's existing forms.

They asked that their lawyers be paid & the dropped the suit which was generous of them

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don_socal

To God everything is beautiful, good, and just; humans, however, think some things are unjust and others just.
Heraclitus

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labrea_gw

Will she sign death certificates I mean they're supposedly in hell by her sanctified reckoning so what would it matter to her. Death certificates are really where it's at particularly in Kentucky.

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ohiomom

Guess they better go to another county and die then Joe.

smh

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artemis_ma

My job description changes every year. (Sometimes more frequently if they do a re-org). If someone cannot fulfill what that job description is, for whatever reason, they need to be either re-assigned to something they can fulfill, or be assisted into a new job that fits their criteria.
I understand she got elected into this job, but since the specs have changed, she can comply (I totally understand she will not) or leave to find a job where she can fill the specs. I don't want to make anyone sign papers for same-sex marriages, but since that is now part of the job requirement, she should leave and find suitable employment for her skill set and said job requirements. I'd quit before being told my new job requirement meant I had to work in a CAFO hog farm. If she doesn't like putting a stamp on gay marriages, she should put her mouth to the same exit.


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cyn427 (z. 7, N. VA)(zone 7, Northern VA)

Mrsk, only because I find it irritating when you do not respond to my questions, I will respond to yours about Alexander the Great even though I was not the person you were asking. Although the primary sources (those written at the time) written by those who knew Alexander (Ptolemy was a childhood friend and followed him through his campaigns) are mostly lost, we do have a few fragments and inscriptions that were written. Those in themselves are proof of his existence. Additionally, we do have works written that were based on the reports, memoirs, and writings of Alexander's contemporaries and historians, which are entirely valid historical artifacts.

Not getting into the other argument, but did want to straighten this out for you. Please do not attempt to draw me into any subject other than the fact that Alexander lived.


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mrskjun(9)

cyn, my only point was that there is far more historical evidence that Jesus lived than there is for the life of Alexander the Great.

And exactly what question did I not respond to?

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jodik_gw

"...there is far more historical evidence that Jesus lived..."

Then you shouldn't mind producing that evidence to prove your point.

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labrea_gw

I'm ready to be slayed by your knowledge of Alexander considering so many sites have chosen this exact exercise to play at this!

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chase_gw

My morning chuckle is to check the RW sites and then watch for the identical rhetoric to appear here......presented as independent thought......it's a hoot.

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labrea_gw

Curiously the first written accounts we know of je the Christ are from Paul who was sort of on the outs with those followers who actually knew Jesus.

Paul tell us that pretty much everything he knows!

For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

— Galatians 1:12


Paul mentions only Christ’s death, resurrection, and some post-death appearances. He does not mention any miracles, parables, or teachings of Jesus. There is nothing about healing the sick, driving out evil spirits, or raising the dead. He does not mention the virgin birth, the Sermon on the Mount, or the loaves and fishes that fed 5000 people. He doesn’t tell us anything that Jesus did during his lifetime; not even his final words on the cross. He doesn’t even give us historical references—no mention of Caesar Augustus, King Herod, or even Pontius Pilate.

I'm not opposed to one or even a number of Jesus again as I've said before it's inconsequential in the here & now with a Billion or more followers not in agreement with each other . Paul doesn't ask Peter or James what happened he doesn't quote any of these events. He doesn't reference the Gospels as they weren't written yet.

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mrskjun(9)

Well jodik, did you read the writings from that list of Roman historians I gave you? Are you ready to move on to the list of Jewish historians?

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jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)(9b)

Now her attorney is invoking Nazi Germany and the gas chambers. That is just so inappropriate. She holds her fate in her own hands and she could walk out that door tomorrow. I think they crossed over the line with that comment.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/kim-davis-nazi-germany-attorney_55eaed70e4b03784e2760abb

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littleonefb(zone 5, MA)

You just can't let it go, can you mrskjun. You are like the "energizer bunny" just keep going and going, and going and going.

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elvis

You have to give Mrs credit. Not only does she have a lot of energy, she manages to not personally insult her fellow posters. Ever. She does a lot of turning the other cheek, no matter how she is goaded and personally insulted. And not one of you calls anyone out for it, which by your own standards of silence = agreement, means that you support those insults. Your comment, littleonefb, is downright civil in comparison.

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artemis_ma

I don't have the time to read every single comment on this thread, Elvis. So silence may NOT mean agreement. It may (or may not) mean lack of time. Bye for now.

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Ichabod Crane

"Of course, Esh. I agree with that. Just sayin' right now, today, I would get my license elsewhere."

No. I, as an American Citizen, should not have to have my rights interfered with by someone ANYWHERE in this country. That is NOT what our forefathers fought for, that is NOT what Karl Rove told us was Defending Freedom!!!! (you have to have extra exclamation points after that; it's a law in Kansas).

This is the law of the land. Period.

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jodik_gw

And I believe Ron explained why your reading list was not exactly acceptable as factual information. Let's see some contemporary proof... without a religious agenda, not from religious script.

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jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)(9b)

Elvis said: You have to give Mrs credit. Not only does she have a lot of energy,
she manages to not personally insult her fellow posters. Ever. She
does a lot of turning the other cheek, no matter how she is goaded and
personally insulted.

MrsK said: Racist, intolerant, hateful garbage. Well, if anyone could recognize it, I'm sure it would be you.

I say: Yeah, right!

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momj47(7A)

there is far more historical evidence that Jesus lived than there is for the life of Alexander the Great.

Really, can you actually document that?

The Roman historians have been debunked. They are writing well after the fact, and on the words of others.

That's hardly historical evidence.

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jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)(9b)

Here is an interesting article explaining why the historical evidence for Christ doesn't exist.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/12/18/did-historical-jesus-exist-the-traditional-evidence-doesnt-hold-up/

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sylviatexas1(8a DFW)

Joe, I've always figured Paul was a big ole con artist who staged that whole Road to Damascus theater to take power.



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mrskjun(9)

jodik, are you telling me that you believe Roman historians were working from a religious point of view? Do you think Jewish scholars ever believed that Jesus was the Son of God? No reason to continue this discussion. The day will come when you won't need history books for proof.

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jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)(9b)

The day will come when you won't need history books for proof.

Very offensive mrsk.

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labrea_gw

The Roman historians say a lot of things depending on which translation you get & which monks transcribed them. Most of Tacitus writings are missing in fact it thought that over half his writing no longer exist either through true loss or design.

Casius Dio has a lot to say he describes how Hadrian protected all the cults & sects & held them in honor but he also tell of a particular death that's interesting.

And the same year Emperor Domitian slew, along with many
others, Flavius Clemens the consul, although he was a cousin and had to wife
Flavia Domitilla, who was also a relative of the emperor’s. The charge brought
against them both was that of atheism, (jews paid a tax that supported the temple of Jupiter in lieu of worshiping the roman gods If you didn't worship the gods you were deemed an atheist & that was punishable by death. He wrote it was the charge on which many others who drifted
into Jewish ways were condemned. (Christians refused to pay the Jewish tax) Some of these were put to death, and the rest
were at least deprived of their property. Domitilla was merely banished to
Pandateria. But Glabrio, who had been Trajan’s colleague in the consulship, was
put to death, having been accused of the same crimes as most of the others, and,
in particular, of fighting as a gladiator with wild beasts. Indeed, his prowess
in the arena was the chief cause of the emperor’s anger against him, an anger
prompted by jealousy. For in Glabrio’s consulship Domitian had summoned him to
his Alban estate to attend the festival called the Juvenalia and had imposed on
him the task of killing a large lion; and Glabrio not only had escaped all
injury but had dispatched the lion with most accurate aim. Glabrio is also listed as a Christian Martyr by the Catholic Church here Dio is explaining he was being considered and atheist under the Jewish influence.

Most of Dios writings remain in tact & they cover about a 1000 years of Roman history he does write that Hadrian sects & cults & destroying Judea as Emperor from 117 to 138
It's thought that during the time of Hadrian Jews numbered a few million throughout the Empire & that this subsect was probably not even 10,000.

Hadrian also ended Jews existing as a self governing nation he layed waste to Judea.

Early Christian historian wrote.

"And thus, when
the city had been emptied of the Jewish nation and had suffered
the total destruction of its ancient inhabitants,
it was colonized by a different race ... And as the church there
was now composed
of Gentiles, the first one to assume the government of it after
the bishops of the circumcision was Marcus.
"

– Eusebius
Pamphilus,
Church History, 4.6

there was a bit of gloating and a bit of misrepresentation Hadrian honored everybodies gods he used every manner of incantation or prayer he could find. Today he might be considered something of a new ager. Yet Dios doesn't directly refer to the Christians or their prominent martyrs but to Atheists who had fallen under jewish Influences.



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elvis

Talk about busy in the garden: I just found this little gem (from Wednesday!) from maddieathome: ""Martyr"? To that I say: Yeah yeah we all get it (yawn). Now step down from your cross we need the timber!"

"Eulogy" by Tool. Nice paraphrasing, Maddie. Actually, that song would have fit in pretty well in Jesus Christ Superstar, (too late for Superstar) IMO, though some say it's not about Jesus at all. Fascinating lyrics.

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labrea_gw

Nero never threw any Christians to the lions the Coliseum wasn't built yet though the torches are repeated again & again. Other Historians have him out of Rome when the fire happened. another piece of trivia the Coliseum was built primarily by Jewish slaves the middle east was as peaceful then as it is now & they had just about enough with these s zealots & their Messiahs and they carted off all the goodies from the temple tore it down to the foundations and at least 70 to 80,000 Jewish slaves toiled building the Coliseum. Presumably a few of them might be of different sects Pharisee Sadducee, Essenes, Christian's

They were a problem & suspect even the temperate Marcus Aurelius persecuted them, There was a plague and the State was the Religion & Religion was married to the state and everyone was supposed to be working to get rid of the plague. These jews these Christ followers refused to participate in the official prayers for the well being of Rome they had to pay this was to be against the good of the public & the state & off to the Coliseum they went & Marcus was not a fan of blood sport or games or gladiatorial feats but he went for the public good.

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ohiomom

So from Joe's informative posts there is no controversy that Christians existed right? Where did the name originate from?

Edited to add: I meant where do you who say there is no historical Jesus Christ think the name originated from.

Curious in Cleveland

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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

I saw this woman's husband on tv in full support of her staying in jail for as long as it takes. Being that he's her 4th husband he may have a few extra motives for such encouragement.

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momj47(7A)

I meant where do you who say there is no historical Jesus Christ think the name originated from.

From the mind of good story tellers. The name and story of Jesus is right up there with all the good god and goddess creation stories.

Like Apollo, and Jupiter, Diana, Cupid, Neptune, Vulcan, Bacchus, etc.

Jesus is an aggregate, given the characteristics that would make him appealing to those who come from a monotheistic tradition, as well as those who want to (there were a LOT of Roman gods and goddesses).

He is given the attributes humans admire or need. He is kind, tolerant, peaceful, life-giving, healing, compassionate. morally strong, righteously angry, protector.

Unlike Roman gods and goddesses, Jesus does not have the human failings and flaws, that make ancient mythology so much fun. Those are given to God - jealousy, violence, petulance, rage. And there are some great stories in the Old Testament.

Other religions, in Egypt, Greece, Rome for example, and their gods and goddess, lasted for thousands of years, there's nothing that makes Christianity any different.

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labrea_gw

You haven't been reading I did not say there is no Historical Jesus I say there are numerous historical Jesus and the one called the Christ who had followers termed Christians.

The name comes from the Greek not current day but humorously Alexandrian Greek/Koine approximation Messiah. It's the troublesome Greek of the new testament (Paul & his effeminate men/temple prostitutes Greek Peters name thout are rock? greek.

Annointed /Messiah(Hebrew) is the meaning of the greek word. He was the anointed . It's why I spit Poison over the New Apostles anointing Rick Perry during the last election cycle saying that they had new revelation that hew was anointed & would lead.

There are legal fights left that indicate among the Jews they were called Nazareens early on to outsiders at this time they were jews.

do some research on the term dulos and how many translators have bent over backward to use any & every other term other than (slave) to describe Christ followers. Dulos in the greek is mentioned over 100 times nearly every translation avoids it. Slaves to Christ or as Jesus puts it to Peter to the son of man (terms terms, terms meaning in current language that are powerful terms terms. I most certainly can be nontheistic an accept there were multiple messiah including Menachem Schneerson .

Messiah is one who sets you free Messiah does not mean god

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duluthinbloomz4

Offered up for consideration from probably the shortest article in the Catholic Encyclopedia...

The salient points: "The word Christ, Christos, the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew Messias, means "anointed." According to the Old Law, priests (Exodus 29:29; Leviticus 4:3), kings (1 Samuel 10:1; 24:7), and prophets (Isaiah 61:1) were supposed to be anointed for their respective offices; now, the Christ, or the Messias, combined this threefold dignity in His Person. It is not surprising, therefore, that for centuries the Jews had referred to their expected Deliverer as "the Anointed"; perhaps this designation alludes to Isaias 61:1, and Daniel 9:24-26, or even to Psalms 2:2; 19:7; 44:8. Thus the term Christ or Messias was a title rather than a proper name.

Only after the Resurrection did the title gradually pass into a proper name, and the expression Jesus Christ or Christ Jesus became only one designation. But at this stage the Greeks and Romans understood little or nothing about the import of the word anointed; to them it did not convey any sacred conception. Hence they substituted Chrestus, or "excellent", for Christus or "anointed", and Chrestians instead of "Christians."

The use of the definite article before the word Christ and its gradual development into a proper name show the Christians identified the bearer with the promised Messias of the Jews. He combined in His person the offices of prophet (John 6:14; Matthew 13:57; Luke 13:33; 24:19) of king (Luke 23:2; Acts 17:7; 1 Corinthians 15:24; Apocalypse 15:3), and of priest (Hebrews 2:17; etc.); he fulfilled all the Messianic predictions in a fuller and a higher sense than had been given them by the teachers of the Synagogue."

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mrskjun(9)

Pontius Pilate was the Roman prefect (governor) of Judea, a subprovince of Syria, who ordered the crucifixion of Jesus.

As prefect, Pilate commanded Roman military units, authorized construction projects, arranged for the collection of imperial taxes, and decided civil and criminal cases.

During his ten-year tenure as prefect, Pilate had numerous confrontations with his Jewish subjects. According to Jewish historian Josephus, Pilate's decision to bring into the holy city of Jerusalem "by night and under cover effigies of Caesar" outraged Jews who considered the images idolatrous. Jews carried their protest to Pilate's base in Caesaria. Pilate threatened the protesters with death, but when they appeared willing to accept martyrdom he relented and removed the offending images. Again according to Josephus, Pilate provoked another outcry from his Jewish subjects when he used Temple funds to build an aqueduct. It seems likely that at the time of the trial of Jesus, civil unrest had again broken out in Jerusalem.

Pilate's lack of concern for Jewish sensibilities was accompanied, according to Philo writing in 41 C.E, by corruption and brutality. Philo wrote that Pilate's tenure was associated with "briberies, insults, robberies, outrages, wanton injustices, constantly repeated executions without trial, and ceaseless and grievous cruelty." Philo may have overstated the case, but there is little to suggest that Pilate would have any serious reservations about executing a Jewish rabble-rouser such as Jesus.

Although Pilate spent most of his time in the coastal town of Caesaria, he traveled to Jerusalem for important Jewish festivals. While in Jerusalem, he stayed in the praetorium, which--there is a debate about this--was either a former palace of Herod the Great or a fortress located at the northwest corner of the Temple Mount. (Josephus reported that Pilate resided at the palace.)

Christian accounts of the trial of Jesus suggest either that Pilate played no direct role in the decision to execute Jesus (Peter), or that he ordered the crucifixion of Jesus with some reluctance (Mark) or with great reluctance (Luke, John). Many historians attribute these accounts to efforts by early Christians to make their message more palatable to Roman audiences. It is clear that prefects had a variety of options available for dealing with a potential source of trouble such as Jesus. These options included flogging, sending the matter back to the Sanhedrin, or referring the case to Herod Antipas, ruler of Galilee.

Given what is known about Pilate's concern with crowd control, it is hard to imagine that he would not have willingly acceded to a request from high Jewish officials to deal harshly with anyone who proclaimed himself "King of the Jews." Pilate undoubtedly knew that past messianic claims had led to civil unrest. It seems likely that he would have been eager to end the potential threat to the existing order presented by the subversive theology of Jesus. The form of execution used--crucifixion-- establishes that Jesus was condemned as a violator of Roman, not Jewish, law.

Pilate's repeated difficulties with his Jewish subjects was the apparent cause of his removal from office in 36 C.E. by Syrian governor Vitellius. Following his removal from office, Pilate was ordered to Rome to face complaints of excessive cruelty. He was exiled in Vienne, France.

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labrea_gw

Jews anointed upcoming kings this would spell trouble to any Roman in a very troublesome are that had been troublesome for some time that was troublesome before the romans got there.

The romans installed a Greek Jew to be king remember John railing openly about daughter of iniquity yadda yadda you have multiple itinerant preachers roaming around & insurrections looking for an opening. Romans crucified without giving it much thought. Trial were nearly non existent they crucified thousands for show and they left them on their crosses for days as examples.

Century after century there is variation & the victors get to rewrite multiple times the stories the versions & alternate translations,

Roman empire becomes officially Christian and after it's fall the only administrative legal body left is " a " Church with their writes & rewrites

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ohiomom

Joe I actually was not referring to you, your posts are intelligent and well thought out and I enjoy them. Sorry you thought I was including you in the group.

Edited to add: momj the Jewish people might disagree with you that their Torah is a book of stories, but then I don't know maybe they think the Torah and the rest of the Old Testament is just a story.

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tibbrix

How'd you like to be a gay kid of this woman's?

She's an example of why so many gay teens commit suicide.

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Maddie AtHome

Har har, Vgkg!

I still think Davis has no bussiness being a member of the Democratic party--her anti equal, civil and human rights mind set and her actions are a violation of the party platform. Kick her out, Dems!

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ohiomom

Maddie unfortunately racists/bigots come from all political parties ..... some are intolerant and don't even see it in themselves. They are so busy pointing that little finger they don't see the three pointed back at them. I have known more than one democrat that was racist/bigots, and some others probably have too. They are the under cover racists, you know the ones still wearing their sheets unlike the ones that come right out and slam others.

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Maddie AtHome

Ohiomom, I know! All of them need kicking out. Fortunately in most cases, a mask is just that--a mask, it's bound to come off.


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chase_gw

Bigots come in every political stripe...racists not so much. In my view they tend to very far right.

A bigot is someone " who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices" .plenty of that on the left, the right and dead centre....

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mrskjun(9)

This says it so well.

"But Goldwater's opposition to the 1964 Civil Rights Act provided liberals an opening to tar the Republican Party as racist, and they have tenaciously repeated that label so often over the years that it is now the conventional wisdom among liberals. But it is really nothing more than an unsubstantiated myth -- a convenient political lie. If the Republican Party was any more racist than the Democratic Party even in 1964, why did a higher percentage of Republicans than Democrats in both houses of Congress vote for the 1964 Civil Rights Act? The idea that Goldwater's vote on the 1964 Civil Rights Act trumps a century of history of the Republican Party is ridiculous, to say the least."

Link

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ohiomom

"in my view they tend to very far right"

Like those liberals that we talked about recently in California, which also exists in every community? What did Nancy call them? Ah yes "Nimbys" ... yeah I know lots of them, but they always are saying how much they do for "those people". When people are comfortable with the group of people they are amongst they wrongfully assume that everyone in that group thinks like them (afterall everyone in the group looks alike) and gawd knows you see their true colors.

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Tally

There are several references to Jesus in the Nag Hammadi library, and the Gospels of Thomas and Phillip. Several writings didn't make it in to the Bible by the political editors of the Council of Nicea. So these would be writings not in the Bible.

The Nag Hammadi

ETA: You might find the search function helpful for references to Jesus throughout the documents.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

But Goldwater's opposition to the 1964 Civil Rights Act provided liberals an opening to tar the Republican Party as racist

Another attempt at rewriting history. Inconveniently there are documented quotes that prove the above is FALSE.

I have previously posted this analysis of Barry Goldwater's 1964 presidential campaign where in it is demonstrated that he and his advisors used the Southern Strategy long before Kevin Phillips and Richard Nixon. How the GOP became the “White Man’s Party”

/quote/

Goldwater himself, though, was no racial throwback. For instance, in 1957 and again in 1960 he voted in favor of federal civil rights legislation. By 1961, however, Goldwater and his partisans had become convinced that the key to electoral success lay in gaining ground in the South, and that in turn required appealing to racist sentiments in white voters, even at the cost of black support. As Goldwater drawled, “We’re not going to get the Negro vote as a bloc in 1964 and 1968, so we ought to go hunting where the ducks are.”

This racial plan riled more moderate members of the Republican establishment, such as New York senator Jacob Javits, who in the fall of 1963 may have been the first to refer to a “Southern Strategy” in the context of repudiating it. By then, however, the right wing of the party had won out. As the conservative journalist Robert Novak reported after attending a meeting of the Republican National Committee in Denver during the summer of 1963: “A good many, perhaps a majority of the party’s leadership, envision substantial political gold to be mined in the racial crisis by becoming in fact, though not in name, the White Man’s Party. ‘Remember,’ one astute party worker said quietly . . . ‘this isn’t South Africa. The white man outnumbers the Negro 9 to 1 in this country.’ ” The rise of a racially-identified GOP is not a tale of latent bigotry in that party. It is instead a story centered on the strategic decision to use racism to become “the White Man’s Party.”

/end quote/And placing Goldwater's duck-hunting quote in context: That old-time “Southern strategy”

/quote/

In 1961, Republican Sen. Barry Goldwater of Arizona spelled it out in a speech in Atlanta to a regional gathering of Southern Republican leaders. “We’re not going to get the Negro vote as a bloc in 1964 and 1968, so we ought to go hunting where the ducks are,” he declared. School integration, he continued, was “the responsibility of the states. I would not like to see my party assume it is the role of the federal government to enforce integration in the schools.”

Three years later, on his way to winning the Republican nomination for president, he voted against the 1964 Civil Rights Act. Democratic Sen.

/end quote/

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elvis

Thanks, Tally, that's new information to me. It's very interesting, I'll check it out.

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fouquieria(10b)

But Goldwater's opposition to the 1964 Civil Rights Act provided liberals an opening to tar the Republican Party as racist....

Who wrote this idiotic garbage? Mrs., do you believe everything you read? Then the quote turns around and contradicts itself. The Southern bigots at the time were Democrats. They only became Republicans afterwards.

The only reason I no longer vote Republican AT ALL is because the Republican Party has become extremist and exclusionary at everything. Even Barry Goldwater was concerned about the religious nuts back then and he's been proven right on that point.

Tea Party supporters=sheeple. Trump supporters=sheeple. My brother-in-law is a nice, intelligent guy, but when it comes to politics.....throw logic and reason out the door. He's a T-partyer and one of those end-of-everything-coming-soon types.

I'm for freedom of/from religion

I'm for gay rights

I'm for all people to have unfettered access to the voting booth

I'm for a hands off approach to MOST problems in other parts of the world

I'm FOR common sense taxes that will upgrade and improve our aging, decaying infrastructure....including health and education.

I'm for universal, affordable healthcare

I'm for universal, affordable education. If you want to send your kids to a private or religious school....fine, but not my tax dollars. Pay for it yourself.

I'm for a woman's right to choose. Your religious beliefs have no bearing.

I'm for collective bargaining and the protection of workers

I'm for most social programs that help the disadvantaged, disabled.

I'm for decriminalization of many types of drug laws.

I'm for gun control on certain types of weapons and dealing with guns like we deal with vehicles......(minimum age, insurance, licensing, mandatory training, etc.)

I'm against any kind of discrimination whatsoever.

I'm against people who discriminate but turn around and make themselves the victim based on their so-called religious beliefs. Those are bigots and hypocrites.

If these make me a Lib, so be it.

I'm against unfair advantages given to the uber-wealthy, including obscene wages and bonuses to heads of corporations. If they can't control their greed themselves then the government needs to step in. I am NOT for smaller government....I'm for smarter, uncorrupt government.

I am for a smaller, smarter, less invasive and agressive military.

I'm for our government working with countries and their emigration problems as they concern us.....(instead of demonizing those "illegals").

I could go on and on but what's the point. In one ear and out the other.

-Ron-

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ohiomom

Ron I would have to agree with everything you said, I am definitely left and liberal and want my government to remain secular.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

I could go on and on but what's the point.

That there would be more issues on which I agree with your opinions?

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mrskjun(9)

Not much there that I disagree with Ron, in fact only two or three things. And gee, I'm a RWNJ.

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Tally

Elvis, the Nag Hammadi is fascinating. I find it interesting that more Christians aren't aware of it, but I don't think organized religion publicizes it much.

I also believe in separation of Church and State. Governments should be secular. For anyone who wants their religion to dictate law, see ISIS.

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tibbrix

"ohiomom

Ron I would have to agree with everything you said, I am definitely left and liberal and want my government to remain secular."

I'm center/left and moderate, and I'm a clergyman's kid, and I want my government to remain secular, am grateful to live in a country that has a separation of church and state and a secular government, and so is my minister father.

The guy leading the charge to keep church and state secular is a minister. Wish I could remember his name. Intelligent people understand why it's important to not only keep them separate but to have a secular government.

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fouquieria(10b)

"Kim Davis’ son Nathan refuses to issue same-sex marriage licenses in Kentucky after mother is jailed."

Thank
you Nathan. You've just made you and your mother's refusals to issue
marriage licenses a CONSPIRACY. Which opens the door to the US
government charging you two with a felony. Which opens the door to you
and your mom losing your jobs in the County Clerk's office PERMANENTLY.
Which opens the door to you and your mom losing your state-funded
PENSIONS. Congratulations!

-Ron-

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fouquieria(10b)

Kim Davis for Rosa Parks Award: Iowa Republican ups the ante linking anti-gay clerk to civil rights hero.


-Ron-

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Kim Davis for Rosa Parks Award: Iowa Republican ups the ante linking anti-gay clerk to civil rights hero.

More like Ax-Handle Maddox and Bull Connor.

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mrskjun(9)

The big picture was brought home to me a bit ago. Do you realize that in all the counties in all the states, in the entire US. One p!ss ant clerk is getting her 15 minutes of fame, for doing something that ten years ago would have been the norm! We've come a long way! The media should stop wasting a breath of airtime on her.

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ohiomom

I agree MrsK but it seems HT is all a flutter about something that has nothing to do with religion ... (SARCASM ALERT) .... who on here has agreed with this woman not doing her job?

And yet we have yet another thread that is not about religion that is about religion but no it really isn't it is about ????????????????

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Except that Kim Davis' action has brought the freedom of religion issue to the forefront--and it may be years before that is settled (and even longer before it is accepted). I fear that we will be hearing about the freedom of [conservative] religion issues for quite some time to come.

Kate

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elvis

"I find it interesting that more Christians aren't aware of it, but I don't think organized religion publicizes it much."

...and organized religion generally gets the most publicity, well, except when the occasional nutcase makes news for getting caught doing something extraordinarily odd.

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mrskjun(9)

Do you really think Kate, that there are not a lot of church going religious people all across the country doing their jobs according to the law. This is not about religion, or freedom of religion. The woman is subject to the same laws as everyone else. If for some reason, her conscious says she can't sign these marriage certificates, then her conscious should also be telling her she has to step down from her job.

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

I agree with everything you say there, mrsk, and I would add that many conservatives do NOT agree with you. To those conservatives, here is another example of persecution of Christians, a growing cry that is being heard more and more in connection with a number of (unrelated) issues.

I don't even disagree about freedom of religion issues and that it is ONE of the building blocks on which our country was constructed ("freedom of religious belief" including the freedom NOT to accept anyone else's religious beliefs). However, I do NOT believe that one's religious beliefs should exempt one from civil duties that are a part of a government job or from laws passed by our legislatures/Congress and/or ruled on by the Supreme Court. However, Kim Davis' definition of freedom of religion includes those exemptions--and that is where she errs, in my opinion.

Yes, I do believe that arguments NOT over Kim Davis but over freedom of religion are the direction our politics are headed.

Kate

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patriciae_gw(07)

I think there is a great deal to be gained by us as a people discussing the appropriate impact of religious views on our lives. Kim Davis represents a common point of view. We need to clarify why it is not allowable in our civil administration. Chaos ensues if we don't. That is good enough for me.

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pls8xx

I have a mental picture of the Kim Davis household. It's Sunday. Suddenly there is a medical emergency and Kim dials 911 to request an ambulance. The 911 operator replies "So sorry, all the ambulance workers are Christians that observe the Sabbath. But they will be there first thing Monday morning."

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

This is not about religion, or freedom of religion.

Ms. Davis and her supporters, including GOP hopefuls, claim that it is.

I take them at their word that religion is prompting their words and actions.

I also think that the media SHOULD make a big deal about her actions, and the implications for all residents of the U.S.

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jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)(9b)
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