I’m back again and I see Sena is back. Hi Sena :-) Great job again on the 3Ds. Nice you have a new computer. Were you able to transfer everything from your old computer okay? I need to be upgrading my software soon. I think mine is about 3 years old.

I am going to look over every layout and 3D image on this page very carefully, but I’ve had a headache for a couple of days…so maybe tomorrow morning.

I made an attempt to place furniture in the LR of the last layout I posted and even w/o the stairway, I’m still finding the LR too small. The bedroom in most layouts doesn’t seem too small as long as there’s windows on both walls and room to walk around the bed and either a large enough closet and/or room for a chest. The bathroom is fine. The smaller kitchens are okay as long as there’s a 36” workspace somewhere. But the LR not being able to accept the usual size furniture without looking like it’s in a dollhouse, is driving me batty. But I don’t see a solution. No matter which way I move things around, it seems to keep coming back to that.

Even with the galley kitchen and stairway between the BR and LR, that gives a 12x16 size LR. Why isn’t that enough space? It should be a good size for a LR in an apartment, I would think. Is that too small for a LR with an eating area? And I think the fact one person living in the apartment being tall, is making it hard to scale down the furniture. I’m not convinced a sectional is the answer yet. And if I have a couch, I think I should have at least a slipper chair too. Plus a table and chairs. It seems too crowded with all that, it seems to me.

So, what’s my problem? Is this really too small for a normal furniture placement, or am I thinking about it wrong. Why am I feeling so stuck on this one factor? I wonder if shopping for furniture or making a trip to IKEA would help.

Kippy

- The size of the apartment has been on my mind all week, I keep wondering if this is going to be too tight a fit. I really appreciate the experiences you’re sharing.

No, it’s not just moving the vegetable beds, but that would really be a big project, but I don’t want to take up more of the backyard either.

I do wonder if making it longer is going to solve the LR furniture placement problem? Maybe it’s the width that I can’t change that is making it difficult.

Not sure I am following you about cantilevering? On what part of the building do you mean?

OasisOwner

- Gee, if you could fit 2 bedrooms in 600sq ft, it would seem to me that 1 bedroom in 500sq ft, should work.

A lot of advice here about not putting the bed on a wall and it makes sense for making the bed and two people having to climb over each other. In my bedroom, I have my bed open on one side and the other side has about 18 inches with a table and a floor lamp. That works fine for me on one wall.

I agree, that although I prefer a counter for seating, it does present as a big bulky filler in the space, that I don’t care for. I’m thinking about a convertible table of some kind -- a drop leaf, maybe.

The doorway to the bathroom, doesn’t bother me through the bedroom if there is a good trade off in getting the space where it needs to be.

Nice project your husband did for you. A good solution.

We won’t have a coat closet, but we’ll have a small bench and hooks in the landing on the 1st level.

Can I ask you, do you remember the dimensions of any of your rooms in that 600sq ft apartment?

Prairie,

It was actually a house, not an apartment! There were several houses that size in our neighborhood, and families of 6+ were raised in some of those houses. It was OK for 2 of us (and so easy to clean), but I can't imagine having more than 1 child in 600 sq. ft.

If I recall correctly, the house was 20 ft. x 30 ft. The living room ran from back to front door, approximately 20 x 10. There would have been room for table & chairs at one end. To one side of the living room were doors to bathroom and bedroom. Closet was between bathroom wall and bedroom, so I am estimating the bedroom at 9 x 10.

Off the living room on the other side were doors to 2nd bedroom (dining room/office) and kitchen. Stairs to basement were between the 2 rooms, accessible from kitchen or bedroom. We had to add on to the kitchen (4 x 4) bump out which included the back door, in order to fit a refrigerator in the kitchen - it was originally in the 2nd bedroom. I think the kitchen and bathroom were originally about the same size - probably 5 x 9. I did a lot of cooking, canning, and freezing in that small kitchen.

Small, but we entertained up to 12 people inside. Three on the couch, 2 in the living room chairs, 4 on the dining room chairs which we dragged into the living room, and 3 on the floor. It was cozy for sure. In the summers, we had parties with 30+ people outside, all coming in to use the one bathroom.

PM The end I thought might work to cantilever would be the part over looking the garden. I am a gardener too. I get how hard it is to loose space. I can't help but think the beds will have to beived while they do exterior work anyway since they will need scaffolds etc. personally I like to move my plants myself. I don't trust others to care if they come with roots

If it helps, moms old house living room is 12x14 with a fireplace and too much furniture but it is not a central walkway. The dining room right beside is the same size. The second bedroom is 8x12 and the master only slightly bigger. The bathroom is 6x8. It is small but okay.

PM- what about wall mounted drop table? IKEA has some.

I don't know all the suggested floor plans above as well as the one I most recently posted with the sink facing the back yard. In that layout, You could put one of these on the wall behind the sink.

http://m.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/art/30180504/

BBride

- That’s interesting that your living room is that same size. So what furniture is in your LR and how did you arrange it? You don’t have to have a place to eat though, right?

TV on the wall or recessed is probably the best solution. I agree, that the depth of the sofa is a pain. I’ll have to see if I can find a 3 footer. You’re lucky you found something good on Craig’s List. I still have an upholstered chair that belonged to my parents about 50 years ago. It’s huge with a hassock. I have a slipcover on it that’s in good shape, but I may have a slipcover made up for our couch. They don’t make furniture the way they used to. Ours only seats 3 people and I’m thinking about replacing it for a 4 seater, if I can find one. But that’s not the apartment furniture. [g]

OasisOwner

- Well, I guess I shouldn’t be complaining about having this size space, and no 6+ kids to raise in it. [g] You certainly did a lot of entertaining despite the size, which shows it can be accomplished. I bet it was fun, too and no one noticed the tight quarters.

Kippy

- That would be the only side that I could cantilever, would be the West wall. We will have a lot of plants and shrubs to move out of the way before construction. I usually get some help from our kids for the big things. My husband is pretty much expert at the perennials at this point.

I’ve been debating enlarging the garden out front, because it does get full sun and I have started growing tomatoes out there. And I’m wondering if the new addition is going to reduce my sunshine further. We’ve had a single garage to this point and the sun comes up over it in the morning, and now it will take longer with two stories.

Well, it looks like I’m not alone in having small spaces. My Cape is 25x30 I think. And the LR is 22ft long, but 4 ft of that is a hallway from the front door to the DR/Kit. And it’s narrow at 11ft. Furniture placement has been a pain. I could work on it a bit more though. All the bedrooms are fairly good sizes. We do have a fourth bedroom, but that one is probably like your 8 x 12 bedroom maybe it's an 8x11 ….and we’re using it for the new bathroom on the 1st floor. Our designer tells us, our house is very efficient. [g] That’s one way of putting it.

BBride

- IKEA sure comes up with a lot of neat ideas and that one is cheap too. I see on Apartment Therapy that they use a lot of IKEA stuff. Thanks for the link, maybe something like that will come in handy somewhere.

I'm a senior, living in a small home, with family members and friends who are seniors. Here are my observations and suggestions:

1. No senior would want to sit on a bar stool, even counter height, as their primary dining space. Two feet, flat on the floor, works best for this group. Also, sitting at the table can be helpful for time consuming chopping, etc.

2. All seniors I know strongly prefer a shower; tubs are safety hazards for them.

3. I believe the OP said one person will be using this space. A double bed is plenty room for one and will allow for more movement on either side of the bed in a small space. Also, it is easier to make up a double bed. I have a double bed and still only sleep on one side. It needs to be centered on the wall for ease in making up the bed. Also, murphy beds do not work well if they are used on a daily basis. I had them in two bedrooms in my last house where they were used daily. In real life, they were left down almost all of the time, except in the master when we had company -- just too much trouble to lift up and down every day. If used only on occasion, they are wonderful.

4. To maximize storage space in a small bedroom, and visually enlarge the space, I did the following with my remodel:

a. Installed wall cabinets on either wide of the bed with a valance connecting the two cabinets so that it spanned the space wall to wall. The cabinet depth was reduced to 10" to allow for more movement close to the headboard when making the bed. Mirror was installed in the cabinet doors to visually enlarge the space. Floating drawers, with a bracket below to help provide more support, were installed on either side of the bed. This then allowed for two large roll out wood storage boxes on each side of the bed. These babies hold a ton and are for less frequently used items. The storage boxes are separate from the bed as I wanted to recess them back a little for ease in make up the bed rather than stubbing my toe if they were flush with the bed rail. Swing arm wall lamps were installed above the floating drawers to leave the entire bedside table surface open. I purchased the drawers in the enclosed box with drawer slides in place from Kraftmaid (entertainment cabinet section). The width and drawer height were customized to the inch. This allowed me to purchase the wall cabinets and valance materials also with a factory paint job from KM so that those units matched.

4. If you go with the one wall kitchen, suggest installing open shelves between the sink and stove as there doesn't appear to me to be enough storage for that area.

This is our floor plan. Our Living/Dining is a bit over 21 feet and it looks like it's more like 16.5' wide. Our dining table is 3x6, so I consider 9 of the 21 feet dining room and 12 of the 21 feet living room.

This is th drawing of our recessed tv:

I played around with the space plan. I wish I had the skill (and patience) to try a 3d plan. Below is the drawing and a suggestion for putting bookshelves around the sofa and flanking it with sconces; in your apartment a mirror above the sofa might be nice to reflect the views and expand the space.

Evaluating all the different layouts….

The staircase in the SW corner of the apartment will disrupt using the garage in ways that aren’t going to work for us. Well, maybe I can consider that a little more, but if the stairs turn, it disrupts two walls instead of one and that won't work.

The stairs on the South side also pushes the van over to the other side of the garage and disrupts the storage area on that side as well, unless I realign the door to the garage and switch the storage to the other side.

Rebunky, I did see your plan that allows for the workbench and window on the West wall and that is feasible, although not sure best use, yet.

We’re not going to be able to put any elements from the apartment into the garage, like a closet. We need as much space in the garage as we can get. Our workbench is important and there is a lot of garden gear to store. Relatives have asked to use the space under the stairs in the garage for storage.

My designer doesn't always respond to email. He usually saves my emails and goes over them when he meets with me. But I will try to get some answers before the next meeting.

Jillius’ Plan #1

My husband’s first response, was to object to the bed in the nook. In my mind, I haven’t let this layout go. Something about it still appeals to me, but, in the end, I still think that cutting the space in half lengthwise, while giving the long sight lines, makes the spaces you live in too small. The feature I like least about this space, is the fact it is 16ft wide and I can’t change that. So all the layouts that split the space in half lengthwise are starting off with an obstacle in my mind, for me to get past. And I can’t help wondering if I would regret doing this. [edit: But - some of your newer layouts address the problems I had with this one.]

Jillius Plan #2

This plan is a good consideration. It puts the stairway in the middle. The LR is larger. The counter space is in short supply. Only 18” of counter on one side of the sink. No landing spot next to the Fridge. Windows don’t allow for wall cabinets - might be able to fit a wall cabinet to the left of the stove, but, part of that cabinet is then in the corner and unreachable. Cannot have a blank wall w/o a window from the exterior of the house there. So w/o a pantry and only one 5.5ft closet in the space, there’s not enough kitchen storage with a Lazy Susan in the corner, and two 12” lower cabinets.

With all the advice not to put the bed up against the wall, I would want to have at least 18” between the bed and the wall. Put the table on the other side of the bed, but it brings the bed really close to the bathroom wall, then. But the BR does have TWO walls of windows! :-)

Jillius Plan #3

This plan, makes a lot of sense in a lot of ways. It has two walls of windows in the bedroom and room on both sides of the bed. The walk in closet is 4.5ft? x 8ft? There is a place for a TV on the wall. The door to the bedroom is just across from the bathroom door. Has the 30” counter area to the L of the range. Ability to have wall cabinets. Fridge has a landing spot although a little disconnected from the kitchen space. Have a place for the MW and with the w/d under, you have a counter for folding and can be used for other tasks too. The furniture arrangement in the LR is still an issue as it seems to be in all the layouts and I’m still working on that. One potential problem I see, is the East wall is the street side of the house and the exterior window placement is not final and will need to take into consideration where they fit from an exterior point of view.

Jillius #4

This is a good adjustment of splitting the length of the apartment down the middle. It takes the bedroom out of the nook. You can walk around the bed. There are not windows on two walls but I see that the bay window does add to the room, I’m still mulling that over.

The stairway on that SW corner is still a problem and having two walls with stairs in the garage is a problem. The lack of closet space, that can’t be made up with a closet in the garage. Depending on whether that closet in the LR is useable with a bulkhead? in the bottom? I’m still mulling this one over. I thought about keeping the bedroom/kitchen where it is and switching the stairway wall Still not sure there is enough storage. Is that a 5ft x 2ft closet in the BR?

I’m still thinking about a shower vs tub. I don’t want a small corner shower, it would have to be the tub size shower and does that work in the space available? I’m not going to want a shower w a curtain and now we’re getting into shower doors to keep clean. In a larger space, we could work that out better, but I can't have a larger space for the bath.

Looking at your 3D renderings, Jillius - did you just get this new program? You did a great job for just starting to learn the program. I can imagine how time consuming that is. Have you included 9ft ceilings into your specs? So does that mean, I am looking at the approximate dimension of the height of these rooms too?

The exterior shots are interesting. I keep meaning to bring up, that the designer has mentioned, that trying to get energy efficiency into the addition may mean fewer windows. And budget wise, I’m probably going to have to cut back on windows somewhere. When we first started doing layouts, the windows were fewer and it has crept up over time. And on the East wall - facing the street - the roof line is going to determine placement of windows. Just to keep in mind.

That creepy guy is looking in the bedroom windows…lol.

Okay, so going through the rooms…

Dollhouse views - I think I like that sectional with the TV wall. Interesting that you still share the LR with the stairway and it all seems to fit. And the Table and chairs near the couch allows for visiting with people in the kitchen and the LR. And I suppose the DR table can be used as a side table from the couch. I like how the lounge part of the sectional is right up against that back West window for looking out. That window is planned to have a ledge or deep sill for the cats.

I’m wondering about the closets and drawers being deep. How deep are the drawers under the TV? I was thinking they would be shallow as in some of the photos you posted, but if that is the washer dryer, then that wall is 30” deep? I’m wondering if that is an issue for any reason. And the closet with a bulkhead I’m still not understanding.

The kitchen view - If that is a MW above the range, that’s not going to work for me. I’d want to add a MW below the counter in this layout. With the idea of maybe having to lose some windows, it might be worthwhile to consider putting a small amount of wall cabinets. Maybe to the L of the range with glass doors.

A strong fan is going to have to go over the range. Whether I can find a small one that fits under a cabinet or it will have to be a full size fan otherwise. There is 48” of base cabinet that will hold a lot. Not sure what the best arrangement for upper cabinets would be. The 'no upper cabinets' works nicely with all the windows, and could put the MW under and just have a free standing range hood. But if I need to take out any windows, this might be the better place to do it. Haven't really thought about where to remove windows yet.

OH, and I just thought of something….since the ceilings are 9ft tall, what about having some high windows on the wall between the kitchen and BR? Good idea or bad idea? Take out windows, add them back in….geesh..lol.

I need to stop here. Sena, I took a brief look at your ideas and 3Ds and they look really interesting too. I’ll be back at some point today to give them a closer look. And I have a lot more to say to all, later. And I still want to consider the galley kitchen layout.

At this rate, we're going to need a third thread soon. [g]

Have a few more minutes….

Sena

- I was wondering what Jillius’ plan would look like reversed. I had considered leaving the BR and kitchen where they were and just switching the LR, but if we do that, we lose the windows in the LR. But I see that you were able to get a big closet in the bedroom doing it that way. And of course, I get my 2 walls of windows in the BR.

It’s a nice LR too. You lose the nice TV wall that Jillius had in her plan. And we’re back to having the TV on a railing by the stairs. Although it looks more appropriate than previous plans.

The entry and stairs are back on the North wall where they should prove to work out better in the garage and not as much walking around the building or through the garage.

The kitchen - the Fridge needs a full 30” to accommodate a 28” fridge and an end panel. Has a 30” cab above it. I guess here is the trade off for the nice closet in the bedroom, there’s only a 30” and 18” counter work area? It looks larger in 3D. And of course, you lose all the windows except the one to the front with the bad view [g]. Is that the photo rail on the Kit wall?

In the 3D illustrations, from the LR looking toward the Kitchen, all wall and no windows, is a little claustrophobic. So adding the closets on that north wall really takes away the benefit of windows.

I think both versions of Jillius’ plan are worth considering for awhile. They do take care of a lot of needs and wants.

The two versions with the kitchen in the nook, are interesting too. I’m going to have to think on those awhile. They offer the counter with seating and a large workspace counter and a lot of storage. I like the version with a chair in place of a table, since there is a counter, I think it’s better not to try to have both. Maybe I could slip a drop leaf table somewhere to use when company comes. That tall cabinet recessed in the back of the nook seems plausible.

Oops…one problem I see is that there would be no way to have windows in the nook on both walls. I’m not thinking a blank wall on the exterior of that nook on either side is going to look right. Not sure what kind of adjustment could be made to fix that.

The toilet facing the door in the bath, not going to work.

What is that in the closet with the washer?

I’m not following how the last two 3Ds relate to the layout drawn? Two closets to the R of the Fridge? And the wall shelf with glass doors on the back wall of the nook?

Okay, I have to get back to work.

I think Jillius #3 and #4 are really nice plans and the stairs could probably be swapped to the other side. I have a feeling all of these plans will be changing once you know exactly what will be needed for the stairs as far as fire doors and fumes (CO). Guessing the best would be to have the door start just around the corner from the garage door with a second interior door directly across.

I would still swap the tub for a shower with glass doors that need cleaning. Tell the relative to use liquid soaps, vinegar cuts through hard water well and they can learn to use a squeegee. It is a safety issue.

there’s only a 30” and 18” counter work area?

If stairs (+wall)+landing is 13' then you'd have 16' for the kitchen (so ignore my measurements). 16' minus 36" for door/laundry closet would leave you with 35-36" b/w the sink and the range and 18" on the other side (as far as I remember the DW cab needs 1(?) extra inch to support the counter).

What is that in the closet with the washer?

Oh, it seems I forgot the vacuum there.

I’m not following how the last two 3Ds relate to the layout drawn?

Please ignore the kitchen part in those 3Ds. I was trying to make a U in the nook, but I couldn't come up with something satisfactory.

Responses to Prairie:

I’ve been debating enlarging the garden out front, because it does get full sun and I have started growing tomatoes out there.

Sounds like a great idea. Takes a lot of the pressure off the backyard garden.

The staircase in the SW corner of the apartment will disrupt using the garage in ways that aren’t going to work for us. Well, maybe I can consider that a little more, but if the stairs turn, it disrupts two walls instead of one and that won't work.

It's actually possible very few stairs will be on the second wall. I'm about to post another layout with the stairs truly mocked up, and depending on your garage ceiling height, you only need one or two steps on the West wall.

[Talking about Jillius Plan #2]

Windows don’t allow for wall cabinets - might be able to fit a wall cabinet to the left of the stove, but, part of that cabinet is then in the corner and unreachable.

Why not just reduce the size/number of the windows there if you want to add uppers? You don't have to install my plan exactly as shown.

With all the advice not to put the bed up against the wall, I would want to have at least 18” between the bed and the wall.

There is plenty of walking space if you switch to a queen bed.

Here is one way to add uppers in the kitchen and the king swapped for a queen:

Fridge has a landing spot although a little disconnected from the kitchen space.

It is not going to feel disconnected. This is a small space. Everything is connected.

[Talking about Jillius Plan #4]

It would have to be the tub size shower and does that work in the space available?

Why wouldn't it? If a tub can fit, why wouldn't a tub-sized shower fit? They have the same footprint. The latter will just feel roomier in 3D and also be easier for seniors to get in and out.

I’m not going to want a shower with a curtain and now we’re getting into shower doors to keep clean.

I am not understanding how switching to a shower creates this problem. You have to have a curtain or glass with a tub/shower, same as with a shower. Were you originally thinking no shower at all? Just a tub? If that was the plan, I would STRONGLY advise against that. Either have a tub/shower or a shower, but just a tub isn't practical at all.

[Talking about my 3D rendering.]

Looking at your 3D renderings, Jillius - did you just get this new program? You did a great job for just starting to learn the program. I can imagine how time consuming that is.

I just downloaded Sketchup a couple days ago, yes. It's free and has some very clear tutorials online. I'd say if you you commit 2-3 days (or do 2-3 floor plans), that's all it really takes to learn. I did a second 3D plan for you (I'll post it separately), and that was much easier/faster than the first. (Plus no creepy guy now!)

Have you included 9ft ceilings into your specs? So does that mean, I am
looking at the approximate dimension of the height of these rooms too?

Yes.

And I suppose the DR table can be used as a side table from the couch.

Yes, that is exactly what I had in mind. The table can also be pulled away from the couch into the open space to seat more people when guests are over.

How deep are the drawers under the TV?

I had in mind 24" deep drawers because you can find that standard (either as a free-standing unit or building it in). 24" is the same depth as kitchen drawers, so it should hold quite a lot.

I’m wondering if that is an issue for any reason.

24" deep drawers is standard in a lot of situations. No issues with that depth that I know of.

And the closet with a bulkhead I’m still not understanding.

See here for an explanation: http://i.imgur.com/hZ8VcKZ.jpg

(Click on the image to zoom in.)

The bulkhead may not even be necessary. It depends how many steps the staircase needs to have. If it needs more than I allotted for on the west wall, you'll need the bulkhead in the base of the closet. Otherwise, you'll just have a normal closet there.

The kitchen view - If that is a MW above the range, that’s not going to work for me.

You might look at Carrie B's kitchen reno planning. She started out adamant against an OTR microwave and eventually came to the conclusion that it was the best use of her limited space, however much she didn't like them. I also originally had in mind a range hood for your place when I first drew it, but then you mentioned how often your relatives use the microwave, and now I am thinking an OTR microwave makes the most sense.

Carrie B's situation was similar in the one-two punch of using the microwave almost daily and having limited space. It's common for people to tuck a little-used microwave in the pantry and just deal with the fact that it is somewhat inconvenient to use there. That could have been an option for this apartment, but it just doesn't make sense if your relatives use the microwave often. For your relative's ease of use, you really want the microwave to be in the main kitchen work zone so they can place things going to/from the microwave on the counter. That's also where the dish storage will be, and the sink, and the fridge -- all things you use in and around the microwave.

However, you do not have space under the counter in the main kitchen work zone to lose a drawer or two in favor of an under counter microwave. You also do not have counter space that you wouldn't miss if you put the microwave on the counter. And while I can easily see why you'd cut down on windows elsewhere in the apartment to save money, losing windows in the kitchen in favor of uppers to house the microwave is going to make the kitchen incredibly claustrophobic. You can see that in Sena's flipped version of this layout where the kitchen has no windows.

That leaves putting the microwave above the range. It will vent directly straight out the wall (the shortest, straight route possible), so the venting will work as wall as an OTR microwave possibly can and there are a lot of windows in the kitchen to open as well for added venting. And with an OTR microwave, the microwave will be right next to the big counter and your dish storage (presuming you keep your dishes in the drawers) for maximum ease of use. And then the microwave is not taking up space anywhere else. Plus it spares the expense of buying a range hood separate from a microwave.

I know OTR microwaves are no one's favorite, but for small apartment living, they solve a lot of problems. As Carrie B found, they can be a necessary evil. Keep an eye out on apartment therapy and see just how many of those small apartments are making use of an OTR microwave. It's almost standard for a reason.

There is 48” of base cabinet that will hold a lot.

Only if you don't lose a quarter of it to an undercounter microwave.

OH, and I just thought of something….since the ceilings are 9ft tall, what about having some high windows on the wall between the kitchen and BR?

I thought about this too. If they are operable (rather than fixed transom windows, I'd be concerned about noise from the kitchen getting into the bedroom.

It's also significant added expense. I've never met anyone who felt as strongly as you do about windows on two walls in the bedroom. Are you sure the intended inhabitants of the apartment share your feelings in this matter? Seems like a lot of expense and bother to satisfy a quirk of someone who won't live there.

[Discussing Sena's latest suggestions]

Oops…one problem I see is that there would be no way to have windows in the nook on both walls. I’m not thinking a blank wall on the exterior of that nook on either side is going to look right.

I think this would look fine. It's just five feet of siding. If it were, like, 12 feet, then that'd look weird. A giant unbroken expanse. But five feet is a totally normal amount of uninterrupted siding to have. You'd never give it a thought viewing it from the outside.

Other comments:

Rebunky -- you asked if Sketchup is hard to learn. That was my first time using it, and I was watching the online tutorials about it and then learned by doing the layout. Took a day or so and definitely included some frustrations, but I just did a second plan, and it was MUCH easier. Probably within doing 2 or 3 plans, you'd be a pro.

Sena -- I like your latest 3D plans with the kitchen in the nook. Benje and I both had the the kitchen in the nook in different ways at some point, but I don't think we've see it in 3D before. I like how the kitchen is connected-yet separate when it's in that location and there are longer sight lines. I just wish more windows were possible on that side of the house.

Jillius, could you share which tutorials you used? I'm self-taught on everything else I've ever done on my computer. Even self-taught myself good enough to teach adult education classes on using WordPerfect and dBase (back in the day when those were the big thing). Yet I've struggled and struggled with Sketch Up to the point where I gave up on it. Maybe the tutorials I was using sucked. ;)

Here are two tweaks of my original 3D plan. I'm going to have to do this in several comments.

1) The first tweak was done to make the living room feel as large as possible. The foot print is not bigger, but it should feel bigger for a few reasons:

• The stairs are not enclosed, so you can see wall-to-wall (the full width of the apartment. I added a gallery wall to the big wall next to the stairs so that your eyes really will go all the way there instead of stopping at the half wall. (Someone else made a good point about that.)

• The entire west wall -- all its windows, all its nice views -- is visible at once now. (The part above the stairs had been blocked before.)

• The couch is now facing the opposite way. Now it is looking at windows and the longest sight line of the apartment (west to east, living room through kitchen) in full view when you sit on the couch. This was a feature I really liked about my bed-in-the-nook plan, and I'm glad I found a way to get it again without having to put the bed in a nook. This flip of the couch was also necessary to get rid of the staircase wall. If the couch didn't move, but you switched to a half wall, you'd be staring at the bathroom from the couch.

• When you sit on the couch or at the table now, you are actually sitting in the middle of the room, which means you have maximum space on all sides of you, rather than being against a wall.

Other notes:

• This tweak will only work if no bulkhead is needed above the stairs on the west well.
• Here, the 24" washer and dryer are under the counter on the north wall, so you can fold on top of that counter. (Actually, with the counter above and the side-by-sides underneath and the kitchen sink just a few feet away, you have almost every function and feature that a laundry room in a big house would have.)
• Instead of a closet in the living room, there are a ton of extra cabinets/drawers running along the north wall. With this added to the mix, you now have a massive amount of storage in this small place. There may not be a ton of closet space in the bedroom specifically, but your relatives will have no problem finding a spot for all their things.
• It is a little bit unorthodox to run cabinets into the living room like that, but it's more storage AND more open, so it's worth considering. It'll look something like this in the living room:

(Incidentally, in that picture, the mirror is also a TV. As in, when you turn the TV off, it turns into a mirror. How cool is that?)

I would definitely welcome suggestions from anyone with more of a decorator's bent about the design of this long run of cabinets/counters. To me, it feels if you need some way to create stylistic division with the counter/cabinets -- where everything to the right is clearly "kitchen" and everything to the left is clearly "living room." I haven't put that much thought into it yet.

Overhead views:

Standing in the kitchen:

Sitting/standing in the living room (continued):

I really like the look of base cabinets the full length of the apartment below windows. If IKEA base cabinets are used, with their drawer in drawer options you could have clean continuous lines all the way across. More modern, of course, but visually it would be so calm compared to separate furniture pieces.

I'm not tracking the stairwell conversation very well. I assume putting the stairwell on the house side of the apartment is a possibility now? I thought it was a no, but if it can be done I really do think having the top of the stairs near the bathroom bump-out is the best place for it for the apartment.

I use the tub all the time but I'm still young enough (late 50's) to maneuver myself in and out of it. Today I slipped in mud. This time I showered. Just having a sore hip and middle toe was enough to make using the tub hard and painful. A tub/shower with a good handle attached to the wall for injury or arthritis or...? is a very very good idea.

I had a TV in the living room that people walked past to get into the house. We hated it. YMMV

2) The second tweak is a pocket door between the kitchen and bedroom with multiple panels sliding in one direction like this:

Except I'd do mirrored doors like these to make the kitchen feel bigger:

I am not totally sold on this pocket door idea. If you will basically never use this place as anything but a one-bedroom apartment, then the sliding door is just an expensive way to lose a few inches of floor space in the bedroom and get more noise from the kitchen into the bedroom.However, the pocket door adds some flexibility to the layout if you think it possible that future inhabitants of this place will want to use it as a studio. For instance, if you have someone who wants more living space and is fine taking a sofa bed in and out every day, he or she could have this layout:

View from dining into kitchen:

Living room:

Here is how the pocket door would look closed and the apartment used as a one-bedroom:

Jillius, they could frame for pocket doors (and wire up electrical around the opening), but then just frame in the hole and drywall over. Then, if needs ever change they can open in it up without too much fanfare. We did this between two bedrooms in our house :-)

Clever idea to put pockets there, J!

Also, just to help you visualize a shower in your bathroom:

That shower is 36" x 60".

36x60 is a nice size shower. This is the one I'm planning for our ADU. It's has a built in fold down seat. Inserts are not everyone's taste, but I like low maintenace and affordable, so...

http://www.fiberfab.com/fiberfab-products/7.htm

And here are the stairs, so you can see how they relate to the apartment floor above.

I think you are being too hopeful about the stairs. The steps depicted are each 7" tall and 11" deep (standard). There are 14 steps up pictured (the floor of the apartment is the 14th). 7" x 14 = 98".

If your garage ceiling height is 8 feet (96") and your joists are standard, you will need approximately 14 steps up (maybe 15? I am sure I'm forgetting something.) to rise from the ground floor to the second floor.

Note that only the bottom two steps have apartment floor above them. You need a minimum of 6'8" (80") of height above each step for head space.

Two steps = 7" x 2 = 14". The second step is 14" off the ground. The garage ceiling is presumably 96" (8 ft.) off the ground. 96" - 14" = 82" of head space above the second step. That is more than the minimum 6'8" (80").

However, the third step is 21" inches off the ground. 96" - 21" = 75". That is shorter than the minimum of 6'8" (80"). The garage ceiling (i.e., the apartment floor) cannot be above this step.

So say you have 14 steps in your staircase. The bottom two steps do not need additional head space. The top step is the second floor. That leaves 11 steps that need open head space above them.

Each step is 11" deep. 11 steps x 11" = 121". That is approximately 10 feet, so there should be a 10 foot long x 3 foot wide opening for the stairs drawn on your apartment floor plans. On my latest plan, that opening is actually 12 feet because of the landing. So 10' x 3' is the minimum stairs opening likely needed, but you could wind up needing longer, depending.

Right now you are drawing 6' x 3' opening for the stairs on your floor plans. That is a bit over 6 standard steps versus the 11 steps I'm calculating. What staircase have you ever seen with only six steps that takes you from the first floor to the second floor, give or take a couple feet?

This is how high six steps will take you:

I like the wall of cabinets. It takes up floor space I would otherwise think is too valuable to lose. However, thinking about it, an older couple that is downsizing is going to need quite a bit of storage and that is a perfect solution.

One problem - 24" w/d are designed to fit under a standard depth counter, but not behind cabinet doors. To have them hidden like in Jillius's example might be possible if everything - drain, vent, supply lines, are recessed into the wall but it would be iffy. Asko (or maybe Miele - can't remember) used to have machines you could panel like a DW but I looked into them for my kitchen and they had discontinued them :(

BenjesBride

- Thanks for your thoughts on the galley kitchen layout that I posted. Yes, if the bedroom is on the other side of the kitchen, it is what you see on the long sight line. Is it the bedroom or the bed that you find doesn’t work for you?

I guess I don’t see why seeing the bedroom from other parts of the house, is an issue. If you don’t want to look at the bedroom you close the door, just as you would in any layout where there is a door into the bedroom. Maybe the doorway is a little wider, that’s all. If you have company, you close the door. If you have company you planned to come, you pick up your bedroom, so they can go through to the bathroom. Which might actually be a good motivator to keep the bedroom clean. [g]

The WIC - I did look that up to get an idea how large one would have to be, to be adequate and Houzz puts that at a minimum of 5ft x 5ft -- 2 ft on one side for hangers, 2ft to walk down the middle and 1ft to put up shelves on the other wall. So I did move the pantry and w/d forward more into the LR to try to accomplish that size. And it doesn’t have to be the only closet in the Bedroom, there is now so much room there, that I could add another closet on the south wall.

The bathroom being accessible only through the bedroom has been part of many layouts we’ve talked about. I don’t find that the worst trade off.

So, this layout may not work in the end, and the trade offs might outweigh the advantages, But I would at least like to explore it completely and see whether that’s true or not.

Turning the galley sideways is more like previous layouts and this is one layout with the galley in this direction, that I haven’t explored yet.

I’ll post more about it tomorrow to see if anyone has any ideas of how I could use these large spaces in the LR and BR that might make the kitchen as a pass through worth it. Thanks, it helps to get the critiques. Better to think about it now before making a decision. I'd just like to know as much information about this layout to compare it to the others.

Rebunky

- I’m sorry, I’m getting some of the layout suggestions confused. [g] In your last response, you posted a drawing of the garage with the stairs on the north and west wall, with the stairs going up along the west wall to show how I could use the workbench and window. I don’t remember seeing a layout with the stairs on the West wall, did I miss something?

Texasgal47

- Thanks, for posting. I love to hear the experiences of people living in small spaces.

Yes, sitting at a chair can be easier than a counter.

Shower over bath, noted.

The double bed is a good recommendation for when you’re trying to gain every inch. I guess I’m just trying not to end up having to ditch everything that is already owned and buy all new. There already is a queen size bed 61 x 80. And I wouldn’t really want to design a space that couldn’t manage to accommodate a queen size bed at some future point.

I agree with you about the Murphy bed. That was one of my fears, that it would be left down all the time. Agree about space around the bed to make the bed.

I have actually been thinking of perhaps having a drawer base that the mattress would go on with a fabric covered headboard.

Your renovation of your bedroom with the 10” cabinets on both sides sounds like it would be space saving. Not quite following you about the valance. Is the valance behind the bed, like a headboard? But you are saying you had those rollout drawers that you can purchase that fit under the bed. Good point about recessing them so your foot can go under the bed a little. Wall mounted swing lamps are something I am hoping to do as well. Do you remember where you found them? I’ve looked before and didn’t really find what I was looking for. Thanks for the Kraftmaid reference for the drawers.

Open shelves are something I really don’t want to do anywhere in the apartment really. My house is very dusty. Two days after I dust, it’s ready to be dusted again. I’m planning some shelves in the main house and they’re going to have glass doors.

Jillius, outstanding plan! When can I move in? I love the wall of lower cabinets flowing into the kitchen. I don't think they need delineation between the two spaces. I agree with whoever said (Benjesbride?) that there would be less visual clutter if they were kept consistent. And I think that's important in a small space. Visual clutter makes a space feel smaller, imho.

I also love that no traffic needs to enter the living room or cross through it. I think keeping traffic patterns out of a space also makes a space feel larger. For someone sitting there and relaxing, it eliminates the annoyance of traffic in front of them. A nice touch.

I also agree with whoever (Benjesbride again?) that it would be good to frame that kitchen wall in a way that would allow for sliders later. Even just a single slider that would allow for setting a table from the kitchen and serving would do it. It wouldn't have to be a wall of sliders although that would be nice for flow when entertaining.

Bummer that the stairs take up more space....and I'm sure no expert on that...but your explanation made sense to me. And let's hope the garage ceiling really is only 8 feet high. Most garages we've had have been much higher. Although that could, of course, be reduced to build the second story but some of us need that extra headroom. That's where we store ladders, kayak, and such.

Here's a article about compact washer/dryers that are sized to fit in a kitchen cabinet so there are choices out there that should work for the space you've allowed for them. I will say they do tend to be a bit pricey. Ouch! But I think the expense would be worth it to get that wonderful long counter under the windows. Love!

BenjesBride

- I’m looking at the floor plan of your LR/DR and I guess I misunderstood. I thought your whole space was 12/16 that included seating to dine. But in your 12x16 ft of space, you were able to fit the couch, a chair and the TV only. Being able to have a whole DR set on the other side is nice. And you have a lot of negative space which I really love.

When you recessed the TV, then you just made room for it in the existing wall, you didn’t create a recess around it?

OH, I just saw your attempt to play around with the galley kitchen layout. Does that galley kitchen have upper cabinets? and are the barn style doors the only wall between the bedroom and the kitchen? Some of the reason I would want a long sight line, is to see something from one end to the other. I think it’s a little tricky to figure out where to put one because I’m not sure from an exterior point of view, where the windows are going to be. In a bedroom with no room for a chair, you’d be spending all your time in the bed, and I would think you might want to see through to the other parts of the apartment at times.

It’s hard to place that LR furniture, isn’t it? I think in this small space, a table on each side of the couch is not going to fit without crowding everything. So one side with a table and maybe an ottoman with a tray on it in front of the couch for the other. And the chair would not be an upholstered chair from the size of it? What about moving the table near the window and a chair up beside the couch with an ottoman and a tray in front of both? And any reason we couldn’t try the couch on the window wall with the TV on the other wall. Actually, I think I could try Jillius’ LR arrangement with the TV wall where the couch is And maybe a sofa table behind the couch on the window wall?

I’m also thinking of putting one table small enough to push the bed towards the closet 1.5ft more. A small narrow table on the other side and room for either a desk with a chair or an easy chair with a floor lamp on the other side of the bed. What do you think?

I like the bookcase around the couch, but number one, it’s open shelves, number two they don’t own a lot of books. I like that coffee table and the lamps on the bookcase, sure saves space. Thanks. :-)

Jillius, you certainly could be right about the stairs. So maybe we should stop creating more layouts until I get that point settled.

I'm on my phone, so my reply is abbreviated. Our TV is on an interior wall and I didn't think about exterior wall limitations for you, but here's a pic I have on my phone.

Our furniture placement has been so jumbled up since we moved in because we moved in with lots of house projects left. We ocassionaly put a card table under the other window for our girls' crafts and stuff. Otherwise I try to maximize clear floor space for my kiddos. I haven't landed in a final space plan because, well, right now I stil have a room stacked with IKEA cabs.

In my drawing, I'm just thinking there's a wall between the range counter and the bedroom. No uppers above sink to impede light and view.

if more storage is needed, your sofa could be nestled between shelves with doors.

Another possibility is moving the sofa closer to the TV and putting a table for eating behind the sofa. Not sure if the space would allow it.

My sister has a coffee table in her family room that can be raised to dining height. I don't recall how it works but I've seen her do it and it's a quick and easy change. Then dining can occur right there at the couch. With a couple occasional chairs, they could seat extra diners.

I cannot draw, so will need to explain my idea.

The bed needs about 2.5 feet on either side to be comfortable and about that amount on the end, so the bedroom need to be about 10 x 10ft. Three 39 inch wide IKEA closet units would fit very well across from the bed. So, the bedroom plus closet would take up 10 x 12 ft.

Since th apartment is 16 ft wide, if the stairs are next to the bedroom, that entire width is used, leaving the remainder for kitchen, eating and living.

For an unusual stair placement, what about in the SE corner, with the the first few stairs on the outside? This would give the garage a separate entrance. It would also make the apartment completely closed off from the garage, lessening carbon monoxide concerns.

Okay, I’m not sure where I left off, so if I skip over something let me know. We have an appointment with the designer this week. I’ve been reviewing the layouts and talking to my husband about them. We narrowed it down to three layouts and then to two. I’m hoping that the stairs will not be an issue in these two layouts.

Those that we put aside….

The three layouts we narrowed it down to….

Jillius Layout #1

I think it is a great layout. There’s a lot to like about it. It makes good design sense. Having the stairway in that placement is just not working for us at the moment. We both were not wanting to add a lot of cabinets along the wall, or the pocket doors between the bedroom and kitchen, as in some versions of that plan as well.

I looked at Sena’s attempt to switch the stairs to the other side, but I couldn’t tolerate losing the windows in the kitchen. It did become claustrophobic. And if I leave the bedroom and kitchen where they are in that plan and switch just the stairway, then I no longer have the long sight line from the LR and I lose the windows in the LR.

In the end, when I shared three layouts with my husband, this was his least favorite. I haven’t put it aside yet, because we haven’t had all the family’s opinion on the layouts yet.

Thank you Jillius the illustration on the shower was very helpful. Always enjoy all the photos you seem to find to help visualize all your ideas.

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Jillius Layout #2

We are still looking at this as a potential layout. Again, it has the stairway in the middle and frees up the LR and the BR. The bedroom has two walls of windows. My husband likes that the rooms are all separate, because he's always gone for 'cozy' over open. I like that the LR doesn't have the stairway. We both like the extra counter over the washer dryer and a convenient place for the MW, but I'd rather have the R in the main work space, but it's a small concession. For some reason, I still think the Furniture arrangement in the LR is not easy. And that is a small couch.

One drawback to this layout, is that with that large WIC in the corner, I'm not sure if it will interfere with placement of the windows on the front of the building.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

I’ve continued to play with the Galley Kitchen idea. I understand that the big compromise is the traffic pattern through the kitchen to the bedroom. But if you look at Jillius' plan above, you have to go through that as well. And since it seems to solve a number of problems and allows for the largest BR and LR, I feel it should still be considered.

I've tried to flesh that out more and this is how far I've gotten. The cabinet on the wall of the LR is an actual entertainment center we could use where the TV would fit in the middle and the two sides are open shelves. The table behind the couch is a drop leaf table that can be used to eat at. A chair can be pulled into the LR for more seating or a coffee table can be put there. I added a 2nd closet on the South wall of the Bedroom with doors that don't extend all the way back, so there is room for shelves and no door interfering with the chair.

Galley Kitchen # 3

The window in the bedroom can be seen through the pocket doors. I'm thinking of using frosted glass on the pocket doors to allow the light through. Something like this but frosted glass at the end.

The one area I'm having a little trouble with is the stairway wall. The kitchen is compact and if there are panels or walls at the end runs, on the LR side, then it is a room apart, for the most part, while you can still see someone working in the kitchen. But if I wanted to have it open over the sink and a window on the exterior stairway wall…and a cabinet on the wall above the counter to the R of the sink. Then the wall would end there and be open above the sink and DW or there would be a wall with a cut out? I haven't come up with a solution there.

So, Layout # 2 and the Layout # 3 look good on paper with some tweaking but I'm wondering what they might look like in 3D if anyone has the time to try them?

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Sena - I love built ins and yours on the wall between the house and the apartment is a neat one. Very shallow but looks like it holds a lot. We have requested sound proofing between both buildings so I’m not sure if they can fit both.

I like your version as well with the kitchen in the nook and you got to use a counter which looks pretty good. It is very much like the version I was working with for awhile that had the stairway landing in this position and I’ve moved away from that in part because I didn’t like the TV up against the railing and I was trying to get the stairway out of the LR all together.

I like your last layout with the bath above the stair landing and the WIC in the bedroom.

BenjesBride - Thank you for the photo of your recessed TV. That’s a nice size TV and out of the way for sure.

I like your idea of putting a table behind the sofa and I’ve looked for a drop leaf table and used it in the Galley Kitchen.

FunkyCamper - I’ve looked on line for the coffee table that raises and there are a few nice ones out there.

AnneK - I agree on your suggestions for the amount of room the bed needs. The idea of stairs in the SE corner was never an option. We have the electrical wiring attached to the corner of the house and the meter and all that in our NE corner. It’s also less of a private entrance, because of the position of bedroom windows in the main house and you’d have to bring the stairs out into the driveway, which won’t fly. Thanks for the idea though. The entry to the apartment has always been planned to be enclosed from the garage.

~~~~~~~~

Have you talked with the designer already about cantilevering one wall above the garage? Perhaps by extending the second floor about 18" beyond the back of the garage? (I've seen this suggestion but don't recall the discussion.) This links to the relevant section of the IRC. Don't know which snow load is needed (I'd assume the highest for Massachusetts for thinking purposes.)

It seems 18 inches isn't a big deal - and that will give you a noticeable increase in living room space. (Without needing a larger foundation / footing.)

Depending on the design you might be able to put transom windows on the interior bedroom wall to allow more light. I don't have time to look for a pic right now but I've seen that done IRL and it can help open up a space.

Prairie, I notice that those second two plans you are considering are still using the original stair dimensions, which have repeatedly been called into question by myself and others.

I thought you were going to wait until you had confirmed the stair details with your designer to proceed?

Did he or she give you the height of garage floor to finished apartment floor dimension?

Do you have the dimensions of the risers and treads being planned?

Until you have those numbers, you cannot determine the space the stairs will take up. In a small apartment every inch counts, so debating any plans that don't have confirmed numbers is foolish.

I realize I sound like a broken record. Sorry! :-)

Maybe your designer plans for the steepest set of stairs possible within code. That's fine, but you need to have those dimensions confirmed. Have you?

This is the kind of thing I meant by the interior windows into the bedroom:

home office · More Info

Meanom - the Galley Kitchen plan has an added foot to it, so it’s a full 30ft instead of 29ft. At the moment I’m not seeing how another 6 inches will help. I don’t see any reason why we could not choose to cantilever the apartment over the garage on the West side of the building, but not on any other side. And it seems that the one extra foot and getting the stairs out of the LR, did actually open up the LR space.

Fishcow - Not sure which layout you are looking at, but the bedroom in both layouts has windows on both walls and hopefully frosted glass on a doorway through the kitchen. We were considering transom windows in the BR at a point where there were only windows on one wall. That’s a nice window in the photo you posted. I wonder what height those ceilings are.

Rebunky - I haven’t created a new layout, these are the layouts that were already developed. I didn’t do anything to Jillius’ layout and only added furniture to the Galley Kitchen layout and a closet.

In both layouts, the stairway is on the North wall and I don’t see why any adjustment could not be accommodated on that wall. If I have to go out into the backyard by a couple of feet, then I will have to.

Our meeting is on Tuesday.

I thought the high windows might be an alternative to the frosted glass door in layouts that don't have kitchen cabinets on the interior BR wall, just because I think frosted glass doors tend to look office-y ;)

Hi Fishcow, I'm not following you, where you are suggesting high windows would fit. And that would make the pocket doors between the kitchen and the bedroom, solid and I think if I had a choice between making them 'office-y' looking or solid wood and dark, I would choose the frosted glass.

Oh yes prairie, I knew those two plans you had narrowed it down to were not "new layouts". That was exactly my concern, that they are based on figures that may or may not need adjusting. After your meeting with your designer, all these little questions hopefully will be more clear. The point I was trying to make was that after you get solid numbers, you will be able to make a truly informed decision on which layout works the best. I am thrilled to hear that you will be able to add on a couple more feet, if needed, just in case. I am sure all will be fine.

Oh and I also wanted to remind you to ask if the staircase needs to be completely walled off from the garage (firecode) with the exit directly to the outside. I'm curious about that. If it does not have to be, great. But if so, maybe ask if you can have a second door that enters into the garage from the enclosed bottom landing. That way the tenants can still access the extra mud room storage you were going to give them underneath the stairs without having to open the big garage door or going around the backyard entrance. NWIM?

I have a couple other thoughts, but I'll wait until after hearing what happens at your meeting. Please let us know, k? I think you said it was on Tuesday. Hope it goes great! :-)

In addition to the stairs, I'm also confused about the east wall of the bath. In some drawings the distance to the front is 7' 6", while in others it is 8' (see Jillius Layout #2 and Galley Kitchen # 3 in your post dd Sunday 11:23 AM).

Sorry, it’s been a long day. A lot of people here today, the designer and a team from the contractor and my head is spinning.

As it turns out, you were all right. The designer arrived with 10ft of floor space instead of 7ft, needed by the staircase, which I was pretty frustrated about. Rebunky, I forgot to ask about the fire code but there’s no concern there, because the stairway and entry will be completely walled off from the garage. I don’t want an open stairway in the garage to the apartment. The garage will have an opener with a remote, so there should be no problem walking into the garage to access their storage.

At this point, Sena, I’m feeling a little lack of trust in the figures and I’m going to have to have him confirm every measurement I’m using.

I haven’t sat down to think about the layout again today. We had a lot to go over today and that was just one of many. As soon as I can, I’ll look it over again and see what I am willing to do to accommodate that. I am not going to go for part of the stairway on a second wall. I’d still like to see if I could keep the stairway in the middle and out of the bedroom and living room. Which would probably mean starting the stairway back on the North wall all the way in the corner, but I need a 5ft landing on the garage level, then 10ft of stairway and a landing at the top. So if I add 4ft so a total of 33ft in length, maybe that would get the stairway in the middle?

That’s it for me tonight. Thanks for checking in with me.

A Great Way to Save Space in a Small Home Kitchen is to use non-standard cabinetry and countertops. You just have to choose the one that is easiest to maintain. From my side, i can recommend you Quartz!

Olivia - what did you mean by non standard cabinetry and countertops? Non standard size?