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countrygirlsc

This old rose needs a name.

8 years ago
last modified: 8 years ago

We rescued this rose from a school aquaintance. I think this is the original rose. It belonged to her husband's great-grandmother. She was moving and leaving the rose behind and I couldn't stand the thoughts of this poor rose being mowed under by the next owner. It was pitiful, much of it was dead, surrounded and strangled by ditch lilies. My DH dug it up, brought it home and he said he was a battle. Once I pulled the ditch lilies away, there was mainly one humongous tap root that was bigger around than my leg and much longer! It had grown in a circle! My DH dug a special garden for it. It is a lovely medium pink, blooms mostly in spring with a few blooms throughout the year. I think it is a climber. It has what I consider to be an old rose fragrance. I"m attaching a lot of pictures.

The bush after I removed the ditch lilies and pruned the dead stuff.


It can have one bloom or small cluster or two or three. Close up and what is that insect?

Leaves and thorns


Blooms in various stages
This one was taken with a flash so is a little bright

Comments (20)

  • 8 years ago

    Good for you for saving it! Lovely blooms - I love semi-double blooms. I have no idea who it is, but there are folks on here who will - a few questions:

    1) Was this rose growing somewhere in SC?

    2) Any guess as to when the rose was planted? (like, when was the Great Grandmother born?).

    3) How big are the blooms across?

    4) What is that white stuff at the bottom of it?

    5) Are there any hips on it? If so, can we see pics of them?

    6) It appears as if it might be sending up new canes from the soil - is it?

    I'm sure someone will have some ideas for you -

    Jackie


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    Nik, I do think it's too soon to tell much about such an immature plant; especially without any close-up photos of leaves, buds, thorns, etc. I did suggest 'Rose Edouard', but I meant that to be a starting place for exploration, certainly not as a definitive ID. I wondered if the rose 'Palmyre' might be called that because at one point that was a scion that didn't survive. 'Rose Edouard' and 'Céline' are two popular Bourbon rootstocks that often survived the roses grafted onto them, and early descriptions of 'RE' and 'Céline' both seem like good candidates. The HMF photos for both roses seem to me to not match up too well with the early references, but others may disagree. 'Céline', incidentally, was described early on as both a Hybrid Bourbon and a Hybrid China. I believe that William Paul started out calling her a Bourbon or Hybrid Bourbon, but then began calling her a Hybrid Chinese. Virginia
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  • 8 years ago

    The "White stuff" looks like an angel statue. :-)
    Note that the stipules appear to be ciliate or grand ciliate and the auricles are divergent. The bloom is ?semi-double? and has that lovely white "eye". I'd call the prickles falcate, but their base divergent. Leaflets look to be ?ovate? Do the last two leaflets closest to the cane go backwards? How many leaflets to a leaf?
    I can't "read" the leaf surfaces. Shiny? Leathery? Matte? Powdery?

    Just start collecting all these little clues.

    Those buds are delicious!

  • 8 years ago

    Jackie:

    1. Yes, we dug it up in northern Greenville County.

    2. No idea how old she might have been. It was handed down to Grandmother, then mother, then the daughter moved it to her house. Her family has lived in this area for at 60 years. At first we were told it had been grandmother's rose, but then they explained it had actually come from great-grandmother. We are in our early 60s and we know the family has been around this area for longer than that. Actually we don't know where the great-grandmother got it. It's possible she could have gotten from her mother or who knows? I thought it might be from early 1900s, but was just guestimating.

    3. The blooms are big, maybe 4 inches or larger.

    4. It's a fairy sitting on a toadstool or something. The little orange thing is a small basketball that the neighbors threw in our yard. I started to throw it back, but then decided I sort of liked it there.

    5. This is the only photo that I have that has hips. I will check it tomorrow.

    1. Yes, it is throwing up new canes. I didn't prune it back in the spring like I should have, because it had so many buds on it. There are three other small roses in that garden, Carefee Sunshine which is always carefree and two mini climbers that lost there leaves, plus the dahlia.

    jerijen, here is a another photo of foliage and bloom. It seems there are 5 leaflets per leaf. I will also have to check for the surfaces tomorrow. I want to say matte from looking at the photos.

  • 8 years ago

    Thanks Countrygirl -- Those little details may help you match or eliminate various suggestions.

    I wish I knew the rose. I don't -- but that's not surprising as our area is so different.

  • 8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    Here are some pictures from this morning. No blooms but she has lots of buds. I could only find one hip and it looks like an alien space spider:

    The full bush, that is a dahlia in front of it


    The fairy is actually sitting on an iris! I didn't know that and I've had her probably 10 years! She needs painting.

  • 8 years ago

    OMG... that IS an alien space spider! Ack! Run!

    Okay, I'm a little punchy- sorry.

    There's something about the blooms that puts me in mind of the Climbing HT Rose 'Madame Grégoire Staechelin' AKA 'Spanish Beauty'. The rose only dates to 1927, so possibly it isn't old enough.

    http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.3998.0&tab=36

    http://roses.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Madame_Grégoire_Staechelin

    I know several forum members grow 'Mme GS', so I hope someone can chime in and shoot that theory down, or possibly even give it credence... who knows?

    Whatever you've got, it's a good-looking rose, and you've done a good deed by rescuing it, and giving it a new home.

    Good luck,

    Virginia

  • 8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    MGS is strictly a once bloomer. By now, in the northern hemisphere, it should have no buds but be full of huge green turnip shaped hips.

  • 8 years ago

    According to HMF Comments she'll have a smaller second flush, and some years a third flush in at least one garden in Australia... Dunno what she'd do in upstate SC, although I guess the Roses Unltd folks would know.

    Virginia


  • 8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    Well, it is non repeating in Europe. At least according to my experience and any sources I could find. Maybe it's one of those roses that given 100% cultivation and the exact climate they like, plus some considerable summer dormancy and meticulous deadheading combined with full maturity MIGHT repeat in the fall, once in a blue moon. Those roses I call once bloomers.. I would be interested to hear of other members' experience with MGS.

    PS Btw I'm currently having my Magnolia Grandiflora 'Little Gem' dwarf cultivar repeat with a couple of blooms. First time after 8 years in the ground... I wouldn't call this a repeating plant.

  • 8 years ago

    Virginia, one issue is we don't know when the great-grandmother may have originally planted it. I showed it to Paul and Trish at Ashdown and Trish thought it may have been in the Bloomfield series, but not sure if they are old enough.

  • 8 years ago

    The timing is why I asked if anyone knew when it was planted. "Great grandmother(s)" can have lived a long, long, time ago, or just a few decades, depending on whether the family is what my DH calls "fast breeders", or "slow breeders". It also, of course, can depend on whether the ancestors were the youngest of 10 children, or the eldest...1927 is not too close at all for a family to have fit in 4 generations.

    On the other hand, the grandfather of my closest friend, who (the grandfather) died about 20 years ago at 103, told me once that HIS grandfather fought in the Revolutionary War. I remarked to his daughter that I assumed he had meant the Civil War. She said "Oh no, he truly meant the Revolutionary War - we have all of the records, and know where he is buried." So, you never know...

    Jackie


  • 8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    If a rose has a reliable second flush every year, and some years a third flush, then I'd say it is a remontant rose. If it doesn't rebloom in cooler climes, that doesn't mean that it couldn't if conditions were favorable. The Aussie gardener in question grows many roses, but I have no idea if she deadheads or coddles her plants.

    However, it seems the real objection is that 'Mme GS' may not be an old enough cultivar. From what I can tell, she was formally introduced in the U.S. in 1929, and was quite a sensation, and then had a resurgence in popularity in the post-WWII years.

    countrygirl, if you haven't already, you might want to talk with your friend to see if you can get a good idea of earliest-possible and latest-possible planting dates. The property may have been in the family for- say- 100 years, but perhaps roses were planted decades later. In which case, the Bloomfield Series could certainly be a go.

    This particular rose- whoever it may be- has an enormous tap root, and suddenly gets far better conditions than it's been used to for years. It wouldn't surprise me if a once-bloomer in that situation decided to rebloom for a year or two; if any plant suddenly has enough energy to bloom/reproduce, why wouldn't it? Assuming that it is a climber, it will probably soon be channelling that energy into producing new and longer canes, but for now...?

    It may take a few years for this rose to settle into its new conditions to the point where it has regained some of what it lost during times of neglect, and gets itself 'back on schedule'. My only point here being that if you think you have found a perfect match, but the blooming schedule doesn't fit... that could just be because your rose is still adjusting to its new digs, no?

    Keep us posted!

    Virginia

  • 8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    MGS is reported by most sources (including Beales and Austin if I recall correctly) to be a Spring bloomer. The fact that it is reported to be reblooming by one (respected) gardener in Australia does not make it 'remontant' in my book. If one is to trust that the Australian source is referring to the exact same rose (not to be taken for granted for roses grown in Aus..) the most one could say based on that is that it might rebloom, may be an occasional repeater probably under ideal conditions. In trying to identify a neglected found rose which is obviously repeating I would not consider as a first candidate a rose which is universally thought to be primarily a Spring bloomer, but what do I know. In any case it seems that this particular discussion is off topic.

  • 8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    I'm not too sure that some of the photos of MGS at the Vic State Rose Garden on HMF are of the correct rose... They seem too full and stripey to me. I do not think the buds look right either but I'm no expert. I haven't been to Werribee for some years, but must try to go this Spring and see for myself. As to Countrygirl's mystery rose, the half open blooms look like MGS, BUT I noticed the same shape on my Freiherr von Marschall blooms ( new plant last July/August). My FvM has no scent that I could detect, though.

  • 8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    This can not be MGS even if one diregards the remontancy issue. Neither the new growth or the thorns on it, nor the bush shape supports it. The blooms are also too small if they are about 3 inches as reported. There should have been huge green hips also at this time of year as I stated above.

  • 8 years ago

    I don't know if it's a match, but after seeing these pics, I couldn't help but wonder if perhaps it might be 'Adam Messerich'.

    :-)

    ~Christopher

  • 8 years ago

    Sorry, Nik, I didn't make myself clear, in my post. I forgot to emphasise that 'but' .... I don't think it is MGS either. I 'm also wondering if there is an impostor lurking amongst our MGSs in Austalia.

    Melodye

  • 8 years ago

    Christopher -- 'Adam Messerich' is the rose I was trying to remember. Kim Rupert might recognize that one.

  • 8 years ago

    'Adam Messerich' looks very close. there are buds now and I will try to take photos in various stages of bloom. She blooms a flush in the spring and reblooms over the course of the summer, not many but a few at a time. Our aquaitance called her the Seven Year Rose, because it bloomed pink for six years and red the seventh. I have had it for more than seven years and it has never bloomed red, so don't know why she thought that.