I have Miele coolers. They have a toll free help desk which is stellar. When I've been unsure of error codes or how to reset the filter alarm (they gave me a different sequence that works better for me) or any little thing, they've been knowledgeable and helpful. When my freezer quit over New Year's and the repairman from the appliance store (open on holiday) didn't know what was wrong, Miele sent a tech. I had overdone the superfreeze and frozen the fan so by the time he got here there wasn't a problem anymore, as it had defrosted. They were very nice about it all down the line.

OTOH, when they made the transition to the "concierge" service, and insisted on their own newly trained techs installing rather than the experienced store installers who actually knew what they were doing, they totally messed up the installation at an offline friend's home. They might have known how to install Miele, but not how to refit in an older kitchen. I'm sure that that kind of thing has been improving over time, as the new installers gain more experience.

In my area (Los Angeles), their installers don't retrofit. Miele's rep was very clear you had to use their installers and they hooked up correct new perfect lines only. While they did not actually say it, they certainly implied that if you had any issues you needed to pick another brand, as you would pay a separate fee for each installation or attempted installation. They were also clear that you would void the warranty if you installed it yourself. On this forum people have told me that is incorrect and that I had been lied to. That didn't exactly make me more interested in their product....

Agreeing with HVtech42, Just because someone says their product will last 20 years doesn't really mean that it will last that long without any repairs needing to be done.

This reminds me when Frigidaire gave 25 year warranties on their washer tub against rusting. This sounds like a great warranty doesn't it. The wash tub was made from plastic.....

So to put hvtech42's world into my daily language: ' Attempts to reduce total cost of ownership by shifting the cost structure in favor of acquisition cost and away from operating cost are unlikely to be successful. The more important selection criteria will be suitability to mission and operations management.' I need to get out more. :)

I'm thinking about purchasing Miele steam-combi and 30" wall ovens… What has stood out for me on comments @ Gardenweb is electronic issues for Miele (and F&P dish drawers, but that is off-topic). This makes me think of German-engineered cars, which look very complex compared to Japanese cars, when you lift the hood. Can anyone comment on the possibility that Miele chooses to up the technology ante (relative to its similarly-priced competitors) and therefore, opens one to more faults and/or repair issues (than say Wolf, Thermador)?? The increased emphasis on calling their 800 number with error codes is a bit concerning (wow, I sound old…).

We did a reno in 2003-04 and installed Viking appliances with a Miele DW. The DW has never needed a repair is still giving me excellent service. I have a Miele 30" oven which replaced a Viking after that was bought back within 2 years of installation. I highly recommend the oven which I love. I purchased a Miele fridge last year again to replace the Viking installed in 2004. I'm very pleased with that purchase. I also have a Miele front-load washer and dryer as well as a rotary iron and 2 of their vacuums.

Clearly, I trust the brand and have had excellent experience with it. Only the "20 year" washer has required service and, in fact, it was replaced after 2-1/2 years under extended warranty. It took a few weeks but Miele did an excellent job with the several repairs it required and quickly agreed to replace in the end. I'm hoping for at least 15 years on this washer.

I live in the northeast where they are headquartered. Their east coast call center is excellent, their phone support is expert and available, and their factory service is also excellent in my area.

What I've learned is that Miele requires their own trained repair people. So if someone lives where that is available there should be no issues. If not, best to go with a different brand.

My experience with the call centers is to call in the morning to reach Princeton where the techs are. In the afternoon (on my time) the west coast folks answer. They have been very nice but less expert IME.

The coffee system is elegant. I thought of installing one in my pantry. But the techs told me it is the appliance that most frequently requires repair. I bought a Nespresso machine instead, the coffee is the same as the Miele b-i uses and it's a fraction of the cost. If it breaks, no big deal to replace.

Miele has its critics if you search through threads here. I don't have experience with their "concierge" service as it's not available where I live. All my installations have been done by my plumber (the dealer recommended the installer who retrofit the fridge). The warranties stand.

If anyone goes with Miele, and can get their factory service, I do suggest buying their extended warranties but only to do so directly through their website so the appliance is registered with them. I would not recommend third party warranty for Miele or even considering a non-Miele servicer. Their people arrive with special laptops that diagnose. Outside servicers won't have that and would be useless.

Under circumstances I've outlined one could buy Miele with great confidence.

"Can anyone comment on the possibility that Miele chooses to up the technology ante (relative to its similarly-priced competitors) and therefore, opens one to more faults and/or repair issues (than say Wolf, Thermador)??"

Thermador and Wolf are loaded with electronics as well, except on the all gas ranges. Miele makes their electronics in-house, so the electronics themselves should be more reliable than the competition. So no, I don't think it opens them up to more repair issues, but it does mean that if there is a problem, the service tech had better know what they're doing. That includes having the right tools, which may be specific to Miele (e.g. laptop with the correct service software loaded).

Based on the input, I think I'd be well served with Miele, but since I'm 3.5h from the Miele Centre, 3h from authorized service, 2h from authorized installer, and 4 blocks from the nearest dealer who sells Miele "once in awhile" I don't think it's an appropriate choice for my critical appliances. However, for the less critical coffee machine and warming drawers, I will likely go with Miele.

IMO both of those appliances are a waste of money. The coffeemaker, not to mention the ridiculous initial purchase price has quite a high repair rate relative to their other products, and considering that so few other companies even make a built-in coffeemaker, you can bet that guy will be making the 3 hour trip more than once (if he's even willing).

Miele warming drawer... the only reason I can think of to buy this is if you're getting the rest of your appliances from them and want it to match. Since you're explicitly not doing this I don't see the point. Also, do people seriously pay retail for warming drawers anyway? That type of product is best bought as a closeout/scratch n' dent, or at the very least get a non-fancy brand like KitchenAid or something..

Good points. The coffee machine is an absolute waste of money. 30" panel ready warming drawers aren't easy to find and, oddly, Miele is actually on the lower priced options.

I'll be honest, I was kind of just assuming that Miele was going to be ridiculously overpriced on the warming drawer :)

If it's a good price compared to the other options and you think it's something you'll use, go for it but since it's an appliance that does so little I would still look for deals first on eBay and such if you can't find any locally.

Robert: check out Ebay for warming drawers w/ great prices, if you are not too brand-specific. There are many in unopened boxes, and a guy who sells many different brands, who answered my question by email.

Rococogurl: thanks very much for your detailed and very helpful comments. I remember your posts from 2004 when we were doing a whole-house reno in SoCal!

Re. your oven: do you bake much? Any comments on the necessity of rack-switching midway when baking on two racks?? I have not understood how evenly the convection works in Miele, as compared to porcelain-problematic Wolf, (which most feel is a dream for multi-rack baking).

Fast-forward 11 years: I called Miele a few weeks ago, and they said they service here in central Iowa, but when I went to their biggest retail source, the store said that they assign the repair Co. for Miele (excellent hand-picked person, but not Miele-trained?), so I need to get more info.

hvtech: thanks very much for your explanation. Miele seems to be a leader in providing fault codes for electronics-based issues, so I think that influences my perception.

@kitchengirl: Get more info, for sure. The dealer who sold me the fridge is large, highly rated and respected. His Miele "expert" couldn't adjust the door panels of the fridge properly -- hardly anything critical. The Miele servicer did it perfectly in 15 minutes.

But that said, the thing with their service is the laptop which they are able to plug into the board in the appliance. It tests and does diagnostics. F.ex. The heater was the problem with my washer and it didn't bring the washer to hot. That was verified each time it broke using the laptop. Don't know how that would be done as reliably without it. I also know that Miele sends their people to school to teach them how to repair. My regular servicer had just spent a week learning about the new range.

I am an oven cook with long experience and professional training. I use my oven far more than the cooktop. I routinely bake breads and occasionally pastry. I don't bake cookies very often. When I do, I always switch pans around because I don't own the exact same cookie sheets and no oven will cook something perfectly evenly with different pans stacked. I have noticed a variation in the back of the oven, which gets slightly hotter -- only slightly -- than the front. But judge for yourself: Here's a photo of cookies and bread I baked last weekend for a lunch. The cookies are chocolate/nut shortbread baked on convection bake -- very delicate. I did two trays at a time and switched them midway.

Rococogurl: YUM — gorgeous stuff! Your boules are European bakery-perfect.

I appreciate your comments: a dream is a super-even oven that allows one to relax a little bit when doing cookies. It seems many ovens run a little hotter at the back, as have my last two.

I'll check your other posts by search -- thanks very much for the helpful specifics on Miele baking.

No oven is perfect. Each one is going to have its own quirks and slight temperature variations. That said, we NEVER have to rotate cookie sheets in our Electrolux.

hvtech42: Thanks for the feedback; are you picky about evenness of browning? I mean, do cookies look alike coming from different sheets?

I know Electrolux has a following here for ovens: they and Wolf's ovens have two fans, not one.

I saw that Electrolux (on AJ Madison) ranked Electrolux 4-1/3 stars of 5.

I have a Miele dishwasher and cooktop that I purchased a little over two years ago and I'm very pleased with both. I'm currently looking at purchasing a wall oven and warming drawer and once again I'm looking at Miele. In addition to all the cooking advantages you get with the Miel oven it is also a lot quieter than most (at least that is what my research has found). My word of advice if you are looking at purchasing Miele is to wait until they offer the 10 year warranty for free (this is how I purchased my Miele) in the event that you should require any warranty work at least you will be looked after within the first 10 years and servicing costs are only going up.

Corum : Is this some kind of seasonal promotion they do, or is it an upcoming policy change? Or something you "bargain" with the sales person for?

From my Miele experience (last 5 years) it has been something they offer once sometimes twice a year. Also, I know of people who when purchasing several appliances who have negotiated the free 10 year warranty as part of the deal.

I don't think the free 10 year warranty is a thing of negotiation, at least in Canada. There is no negotiation at all. The most I got was the store threw in a box of dishwasher tablets and a bottle of rinse aid (this one was for my patience when the Miele ordering system was down) out of their own pocket. But we have Perfect 10, which is free 10 year warranty or 10% off on almost any single appliance. It happens once or twice a year. The free warranty thing does not come with other goodies included in Advantage Plus. So depending on the price different, one may want 10% off price + Advantage Plus instead of straight free warranty. The Canadian price is significantly more than that in our south neighbour, though.

"hvtech42: Thanks for the feedback; are you picky about evenness of browning? I mean, do cookies look alike coming from different sheets?"

They look plenty alike. I don't want to say perfect, because if you scrutinize each cookie sure you will probably find slight differences, but nothing that you would see unless you were specifically looking for them, and nothing that even (in my opinion) a picky person would care about. Let's just say it's good enough that I highly doubt another oven could do better.

I don't think anyone who knows me would describe me as a perfectionist, and I certainly am not one about most things in life, but I think that most people who spend a lot of money on something, whether it be an appliance or something else, are going to carefully scrutinize the performance, myself included.

Electrolux adding in the dual convection fans is a recent thing, mine only has one. I can't speak to whether or not the new ones perform differently.

IMO, the fan noise has more impact to my life than the slight unevenness that I have to look for it to notice. :-)

The 10 year warranty negotiating was done in Canada (Edmonton to be exact).

Whoa, I am am about to buy a Range and a Speed Oven from Miele. So, do they have a promotion each year for a free 10 year warranty?? If that is so, when do they have this? They are not discounting, so I would hate to miss this.

Usually one is in Spring (like April - May this year) and the other in Fall (like October last year). The promotion lasts a month at least.

Has anyone seen this in the U.S.? My Googling only shows Canada. I'd consider moving (Winnipeg?) but it doesn't work with my wife's schedule. :)

The 10yr warranty promotion is only in Canada.

Darn! I guess I will have to buy the 5 year extended warranties.

Buy the coffee thing on craigslist, I see them posted there regularly which makes me think people end up not liking it....

They do run promotions once or twice a year in the US where you get the 5 year warranty if you use their installation service.

hvtech42: Thanks very much. I only recently began searching specifically for double fan convection in ovens. Presumably, it is only an advantage in achieving evenness of browning (but the proof of the pudding is in the result, not the specs or hype...).

"I mean, do cookies look alike coming from different sheets?"

Why I would not base a decision on a single factor for any oven. It depends on the functionality you need.

I would not trade the functionality of a setting which lets me roast perfectly in the usual time without any preheating whatsoever. That's everything from potatoes I just roasted to Thanksgiving turkey which I start in a cold oven.

Why do those functions not get the same value as the stupid cookie thing? Because the cookie thing is used for marketing and repeated so it becomes a standard when it should be only one criterion in a list that will be different for everyone.

Last weekend, I made oven-steamed branzinos for 4. There were two whole fish in a roasting pan with white wine and herbs, covered with foil. In the old days, it would be essential to slit each fish down the center to get the top filets cooked through to the bone since the oven heat came from below. In my oven, I can use the "surround" setting which cooks from top and bottom at the same time. The fish were perfectly and evenly cooked through and beyond delicious. No cutting.

I can bake 4 loaves of sourdough in succession with 2-3 minutes of oven recovery time. Granted a reasonably even oven overall, how long does it take for the other ovens to recover full heat at 450? And how important is that to the buyer? Important to me because I bake bread and pizza a lot. Not important to someone who doesn't.

There are trade offs. I don't make cookies often and turning or switching trays is no big deal. If it is, and you don't mind the oven liner chipping, or you don't mind more limited functionality, then there are various choices.

There are no right/wrong choices here. Even value is relative. And I could make a very good case that DD's Kenmore double oven, which is a bit smaller, has many of the same functions as other single-fan ovens with 0 porcelain issues and the best self-cleaning I've seen since my Thermadors in the 1970s. I made a mess in her oven with a high heat roasted chicken and was stunned at how well the self-clean worked, especially given all the self-clean horror stories here.

rococogurl, My question about cookies isn't related to marketing (my work background is in marketing communications). It's b/c a stressor for me when I do holiday baking, sequential recipes, or those with prep while a pan is in the oven (e.g., gingerbread figures), are a lot easier when you don't have to remember to rotate pans, in addition to things you are actively doing while a cookie tray bakes.

It is the thing that Wolf ovens are known for, through their demos, I believe. As I think I've ruled them out the for ovens due to a history of flaking porcelain, unless there is a lot of good news here in the next couple of months, I've been looking for an alternative with really even air flow.

What one values most in an oven can be fairly individual; I place little value on preheat time b/c I am so bloody slow at prep in the kitchen, my oven invariably waits for me before something's ready to go in… My sister-in-law, however, encouraged me to get a mainstream wall oven b/c her ~7 yo Wolf 48" dual fuel ovens are so slow to preheat, at least in her mind.

Maybe naively, I expect the "surround" heating + multiple heat source options these days. I think that more or less comes along with true convection?

Re. double convex. fans: does your Miele have two fans? I'm not sure when that technology was adopted by Miele. Thanks!

Miele also added the dual fans relatively recently, I think in the past year or 2. For a while, Wolf was one of the only ones with dual fans. Other ovens that currently offer dual fans not already discussed include Bertazzoni and JennAir.

I'll be honest, I personally think dual fans are a gimmick. I don't understand scientifically how simply having more fans could make the cooking more even. I don't deny that Wolf ovens are great performers, but I doubt it has much to do with the dual fans. Part of the reason I say this is that people report excellent results from those ovens in conventional bake mode - when the fans aren't even on.

In addition to the Electrolux slide in range I mentioned earlier, I also have a KitchenAid wall oven with dual fans. I notice no performance difference between it and my Electrolux.

My oven is old. Single fan only.

I've not used a Wolf wall oven. I've heard excellent things except for the porcelain chipping off the inside -- which almost sounds insane. Only the DF ovens in DD's range which are very good though I don't love standing at the stove when they are on. Sure, big ovens take a long time to heat. But I always allow 30 minutes for the all oven too and at least 45 if I'm using the baking stone.

@kitchengirl - I hear you on the cookies. You make a good point.

No idea exactly what the various brands offer in terms of true European convection. That's another good point. Your eventual choice will be much the better for the time you're giving to research.