I would be careful about stealing from your DR for your kitchen.

If your table is 42" wide, you'll want at least 130" of width to provide wide enough aisles around the table so that people can walk behind seated diners (44" minimum recommended per NKBA). If your table is 48" wide, aim for a minimum of 136". And more would be better in both cases since you have an exterior door that opens into the DR. You don't want to create a bottle neck there.

I think you also want to be careful of scale. Your kitchen - a generous size already - is larger than the DR. If you increase your kitchen much more, it would be nearly the same size as the great room (that would be a huge kitchen!) and the DR's size would be disproportionate to the 2 rooms.

Flipping the oven and refrigerator would make the island a "barrier island" b/w the refrigerator and the Prep Zone in the island. That's one of the top things that should be avoided.

Don't forget about the posts b/w the FR and the Kitchen. I don't think they can be removed. (LL removed them in her layout.)

In addition with the cooktop on the bottom wall, the only usable Prep Zone is now on the perimeter b/w the cooktop and the cleanup sink. The island will no longer be useful for prepping and the prep sink is no longer necessary b/c the island cannot be used for prepping. Now, with the DW b/w the island and the perimeter - it's blocking access to the refrigerator from the Prep Zone, there is zone-crossing, and the DW & Cleanup Zone block access to the island for prepping as a secondary prep zone.

Now, if Michael doesn't care about prepping in the island and is fine with prepping facing the wall b/w the cooktop and sink, then the arrangement can work, but I don't see much use to the island other than "there's an island and islands are cool". OK, there are seats, so that's something. But it's in the way now. To get to the refrigerator from the Prep Zone if there is someone else in the Kitchen - especially if that person is cleaning up, you will either have to go the long way around the island or ask the other person to move and to close the DW so you can get by.

When prepping you will be able to look out the window to the street - if that's on OK view... It wouldn't be my preference, but maybe the view of the street is a nice view - is there a nice big front yard that would make looking out that window preferable to the island?

Edited: I think the comment is aimed at Michael's suggestion, not the layout I drew up.

If the comment about taking space away from the DR is aimed at my layout - I did not. The refrigerator lines up with the post and while the doorway is moved up 9", it does not take away from the DR. In fact, I might suggest making that doorway large enough so it's a straight shot from the Great Room to the hallway on the far right.

Seats at the island...Another seat can be added on the DR end, if 4 seats are crucial to your needs (the DR is right there....) Reduce the 24" cabinet b/w the Trash and the MW to 12" or so and you will have room for a 15" overhang. (That 12" cabinet can be used for cutting boards, knives, etc.)

.

Warning - I'm going to be blunt!

.

Counterspace...You actually have not lost any useful counterspace. The original layout has a lot of wasted (and expensive) counterspace. The only useful counterspace in the original layout is b/w the cooktop and sink (for prepping) and b/w the sink and the ovens (for cleanup). The rest of the counterspace is wasted - including the island, b/c there's no water access.

The counter in the upper left corner with a sink is wasted b/c it's not useful for anything - it's not near the cooktop or the DW and the island is a barrier b/w it and just about everything else (except the refrigerator and ovens - but if it's a barrier to the cooktop, then it won't be used for much more than someone from the FR washing their hands or getting a drink - but it will not be very useful for someone in the Kitchen.)

In addition, the island does not fit in the original layout, despite the drawing - unless that island is only 17" deep and 45" long.... The aisles are much too narrow and your entire kitchen will be one big bottleneck.

Kitchen width - 13'8" = 164"

• 164" - 25.5" counter - 48" aisle - 48" aisle - 25.5" counter = 17"
• 17" is what's left for the island b/w the two 48-inch aisles.

Kitchen length = 16' = 192"

• 192" - 25.5" counter - 48" aisle - 48" aisle - 25.5" counter = 45"
• 45" is what's left for the island b/w the two 48-inch aisles.

.

Yes, I'm being blunt about this, but assuming functionality is important to you, I'm concerned about your ending up with a space that you will come to hate working in - it will look "pretty" but it will be too dysfunctional.

I don't know if you have read the Layout Help FAQ (it's referenced in the Read Me thread), but in case you have not, here's an excerpt:

.

"...please do not take the comments you receive personally. Everyone here is trying to help, not criticize maliciously. We want you to have a kitchen that, in the end, functions wonderfully well and looks nice overall. This may mean that some of us may tear apart your layout and rebuild it to what we think will work better, but it is done with good intentions. We are not the best at just "validating" someones layout, we are best at critiquing!

I will warn you that most of us here are "function over form" (or "function first")...meaning we strive first for a functional layout and then fit the form or look around it. It is far easier to make a functional kitchen look nice than it is to make a nice looking but dysfunctional kitchen functional. So, if you are a form/looks over function person, be sure to state that when you post.

...

In the end, remember this is your kitchen. You do not have to make any of the recommended changes if you do not want to!

[Note: If you are just posting for validation of your layout (i.e., you do NOT want comments that suggest changes), explicitly state that as well. If you do not, people will comment on it!

Warning: People may comment anyway, it is tough to let a kitchen go that you think is dysfunctional and will cause angst later...especially if it is not yet installed and we think we can help. Bear with us, we are just trying to help!]"

.

.

The bottom line is that we want you to have a great Kitchen - both functionally and aesthetically! Most of us have gone through exactly what you're going through now. I know I did - it took a month or so to come up with a layout after my initial layout was trashed (yes, trashed!) It took much back & forth to work it out - especially since I wanted an island (remember, I said "islands are cool"? That's what I thought!). Once it was explained to me why an island won't work and I "saw the light", the layout was actually done within the next couple of weeks.

I shudder to think about what I would have had if the folks here at GW hadn't convinced me my original layout would not work! I am forever grateful and thankful for everyone here! I still do the "happy dance" occasionally - and it's been over 7 years since my remodel was completed!

buehl I think your layout is good. It looks like everyone here it split between that or having the stove under the window. What I was saying about more counter space is I need a place to put bread, fruit, toaster oven, toaster, can opener, spice rack, knives, paper towels, plus maybe a small section to put "stuff" - mail, keys, phones, etc. There is certainly some of that in the corner, I just want to make sure I have a place to put that stuff that is not in the way of cooking. What does everyone think?

Won't keys and phones go on that "e" shelf/counter at the intersection of the halls?

I wish there was a way to pull the pantry inward. Currently in our rental the pantry isn't in the kitchen. oh sakes alive!! For people that cook, it is horrid. You end up with piles of stuff for every use out on the counter. I wonder if it is possible to do some type of pass through butlers pantry. Also, will you share your intentions about the bonus room?

The best place for keys, etc., is in a Message/Command Center strategically located so everyone coming home/leaving will pass it. That's the best way to eliminate the "drop zone" syndrome where people drop what they have in the first flat spot! I suggest it be as close to the family entrance as possible and before anyone reaches the Kitchen!

OK, so you have a lot of small appliances that you plan to have on the counter all the time? That presents a different issue. It sounds like you need a "small appliance" zone of some sort. I thought you might store most in the corner susan for retrieval when you use them, but perhaps you prefer them to all be out all the time. I strongly recommend not storing them in your Prep, Cooking, or Cleanup Zone b/c they will take up valuable workspace. Maybe you need a "snack center"....

Let me think about how to give you a "small appliance" zone or "snack center" where things like a toaster and toaster oven can be out all the time. I will mention that most people remodel with the intent of getting all but the most used (as in frequently every day) small appliances off the counter - but you may be different or maybe you use all of them every day!

If the doorway to the Pantry were removed, it would add another 3 feet or so of storage right off the bat, but with the location of your pantry so far outside the Kitchen, I hesitate to remove that door.

How about storing spices in a spice drawer or narrow pullout? Bread in a "bread drawer"? Knives in a "knife drawer" or hung on the wall or inside a cabinet via magnet strips?

Fruit - leave on the counter - so everyone eats more fruit! Would you consider putting it on the island in a pretty bowl? It can easily be moved if you need the space for prepping. The advantage of the island is that it's where kids (and adults) will be hanging out when in the Kitchen and it might encourage them to eat fruit and not less-healthy foods. :-)

Think about switching the "e-space" with the Closet and calling it your "Message/Command Center". Keys, charging stations, landline answering machine (if you have one), calendar, etc., can all be stored there.

I'm actually dropping the e-space to make the master shower a walk-in/handicapped one. The bonus room is going to be our office. On the other thread I mentioned I am trying to fit an elevator into the laundry space (maybe taking the porch out...not sure yet) that would go to the bonus and to the basement. Our office will be in the basement so the e-space is going to be down there.

Fruit could go in the island no problem. Knives are in a block and they are pretty sharp...I'm not comfortable putting them in a drawer with my kids around. We do use the toaster oven pretty regularly. We don't use the can opener much but I'd hate to have to crawl under the counter, grab it, plug it in, etc. every time I need it. I can handle doing that with the george foreman, the blender, the mixer, but not much else. I wasn't planning on getting too custom with the cabinets but I suppose we could build a shelf or something inside the island to be our drop zone

Also that other hall closet I was going to make a mud area and make the laundry closet just a spot to hang stuff to dry

I strongly recommend going with 99% all drawers in your base cabinets. The exception, of course, being the sink bases, the trash pullout (which is sort of a drawer, if you think about it), and the corner susan. The advantage of storing small appliances in a corner susan, btw, is that whatever you need is always "right in front of you". Just rotate the shelf until what you want is in front - then, just lift it out.

Some people have even had drawers installed under their sinks!

Oh, and knives - consider putting them in an upper cabinet on the door either with two magnet strips or in a holder. It will put them out of sight/out of mind, raise them higher off the floor, and still be easy to access. Something like on this site (scroll down to see the knives stored in a white holder inside an upper cabinet door).

http://foter.com/explore/wall-mounted-storage-cabinet

Here's a spice storage idea:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://practicallyfunctional.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Kitchen-Tour.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.practicallyfunctional.com/kitchen-tour-make-the-most-of-small-kitchen/&h=600&w=400&tbnid=c8FfvTRkzTLUKM:&docid=Q69a5yR_alpWbM&ei=zOHTVcLFHYezeMjIhagG&tbm=isch&ved=0CA0QMygKMAo4yAFqFQoTCMLbqYGFtMcCFYcZHgodSGQBZQ

And here's an old thread about storing large amounts of spices:

How do you store a LARGE collection of spices

Another one:

spice drawers/inserts recommendations

.

.

No Mudroom? One of my biggest regrets when we built our home many, many years ago is that we didn't include a Mudroom. Our son was < 1 year old and we didn't think into the future. *sigh*

That closet in the hall would be a built in bench with shoe cubbies in it and coat racks on the wall above. Yeah it's not next to the door but this plan presents it's challenges I have to work within

Could you move the pantry and garage entrance like this?

It looks like the stairs from the first level to the bonus room is a straight shot, so this should work there. Not sure why there's the extra run (at 90 degrees) in the down staircase in the original plan. Can that be changed? If you need a little more length to the stairs, maybe you can add a foot or two to the length and use that space in the utility area to enlarge your mudroom space. Just a thought.

You're reconfiguring the right side of the plan and putting in an elevator to access one room?

@benjesbride...not just the bonus room, we will have a full finished basement which will have a rec room, 2 bedrooms/flex rooms, bathroom, office, storage, and some other stuff

Does the whole house need to be wheelchair accessible or easily modified to wheelchair accessible in the future?

yes we're planning to make sure the doors are wheelchair accessible

Sorry I (edited) was not specific. Does the kitchen need to be wheelchair accessible or easily modified to be wheelchair accessible in the future? (like remove an island and swap out fixtures in place.)

Edited... I would like everything to be as wheelchair accessible as possible, but not at the expense of usability or space for us right now when we are both able bodied. Does that make sense? So for example I might not be willing to give up the island and all of its counter space, etc.

Sorry, Michael!!! I was on my phone and thought I had typed "Sorry, I WASN'T specific." I didn't intend to type want. I'm embarrassed. That was horrible. I corrected it.

Ignore the yellow banner at the bottom of the plan. I have no idea how that ended up there.

I really like Buehl's kitchen plan and Atmoscat's idea for putting the pantry into the kitchen. so I combined them. I also made your bathroom sink counter a bit narrower in order to enlarge the shower and let you keep your e-space/command center. Personally, I've never understood the need for two sinks so I don't know how important that is to you or if this would make two sinks too crowded but, to me, I would gladly give them up to keep the e-space. I gave you space for the elevator but you would have to lose that side porch to get it. Again, to me, a worthy trade-off. That little niche between shower and utility room could make a handy storage cabinet for something.

Personally, I am anti-clutter on the kitchen counter and having the pantry there would allow you to do something amazing in there, with a shelf for appliances plugged in and ready to go, conveniently located. It would be quicker to pop in there to use something than to pull something out of a cabinet or super susan. And your kitchen will look bigger and cleaner without cluttered counters and be easier to wipe down and keep clean.

I must not be understanding the plan… The goal is to take things out of the refrigerator, put them next to the sink, wash them at the sink, put them on the other side of the simk, process them, and then throw them onto the stove or into oven, then serve them and bus the remains. All without having any island in the way.

A neighbor of mine is a paraplegic, due to an accident during a routine
training operation (he's a police officer) nearly 3 years ago. When he
and his family moved back home, they gave us a tour to show us how the
remodel had made it possible for them to stay in the neighborhood. There's more to planning for future needs than putting in an elevator and making your doors wide enough for a wheelchair. For instance, hallways need to be wide enough for wheelchair turning radius. That includes the hallway leading to the shower, which should be curb-less.

If your goal is to make your home suitable for you to as you age, you
really should consult a designer with CAPS (certified aging-in-place)
training. He or she will provide guidance to help you determine what you should do now - planning a
location for a future elevator, for instance - and what can wait until the need arises.

To learn more, go to NAHB Aging in Place Remodeling resources

Michael your pantry looks to be a generous size. I bet you can fit your freezer in there. We have a chest freezer and mini-fridge in ours and it's very handy. Do you know the measurements for it?

I like funky's rendition. Getting rid of the exterior porch part is one thing - getting rid of the entrance from the outside into the 'mud' area would be another. I think as long as you can keep that outside access with or without porch wouldn't be a deal breaker for the functionality gained inside with the kitchen. Unless of course you are like us and nearly every.single.time you go to grill it's pouring rain. :(

I'd still want to work a half bath in there by using part or all of that garage storage space.

@lisa_a thanks i checked my area and none of them seem to be architects. But I did find a nice long list of things to consider when making it aging/disabled friendly:

http://www.nahb.org/en/learn/designations/certified-aging-in-place-specialist/related-resources/aging-in-place-remodeling-checklist.aspx

The NKBA Kitchen and Bathroom Planning Guidelines with Access Standards is only $10 on Amazon for Kindle. It's a great resource that I referred to throughout the planning of our renovation. Our house is only 1200, 3 bed, 2 bath so there's no way we could make it totally accessible-- for example, wheelchairs require at least 60" clear floor space for turning and that's about the size of my master bath :-) However there are a lot of recommendations I implemented that will make this house function better than if I wouldn't have read the NKBA guide.

Our next phase of construction is to add a daylight basement with an ADA accessible legal ADU apartment. We're in our late 30s, this is truly our forever home and the apartment will undoubtedly be used by our parents, friends, airbnb guests and ultimately ourselves. It'll have a separate, exterior entrance off of a sloped sidewalk that goes around the house.

I totally appreciate your desire to plan for aging in place. However, I suggest rather than doing a half-baked accessible plan for the entire house, you make smart decisions throughout, and make just the main living space and the master suite wing accessible. The bathroom alone will need to be HUGE to accommodate a wheelchair. A walk-in closet like you have planned is not going to serve you well if you are wheelchair bound.

If someone in your family has a condition like MS that has great potential for requiring a wheelchair, then of course the whole house access is needed, but if you're planning accessibility for maybe someday, I think a solid plan for the main living space/ master suite laundry/garage entrance is smart. Worst case scenario a caregiver could comfortably live in the first floor bedroom, bath and den and the basement would not need to be used and thus there'd be no need for an elevator.

Another important consideration if you're planning 36" doors throughout... there's a bit of a debate, but what I've determined is that 36" doors are good for wheelchairs and gurney's, but for daily use 36" doors are ergonomically challenging for those with no issues, mild mobility issues or who use walkers; 36" requires a further reach and are heavier than the standard 32". Wider hallways are always nice, but again, I'd probably only put 36" on that master suite wing.

Sorry this is so long. True accessibility is something I'm very interested in (obviously.)

Here are some images from that accessible guideline to show you what I'm talking about:

SHOWER:

My brother and his wife built their dream home this year with the intention to age in place. Their design included curb-less entries from front door, back door and garage, wide doorways and hallways, lever handles and a curb-less shower. Unfortunately, the hallway to the shower is less than 36" wide so it will never be accessible by wheelchair without remodeling. That's doable but it's a shame that their builder/designer didn't suggest making the hallway wider to avoid remodeling down the road.

You can hire a CAPS professional to guide your decisions and to join you in meetings with your architect.

Lisa, that's terrible. Such an unfortunate oversight.

I was wondering if the stairs could be straightened out...nice change atmoscat! I like it! I need to digest the other things Michael mentioned - but later this evening (assuming I have time.)

My thoughts exactly, benjesbride!

How about something like this? Building on Atmoscat's idea.

The pantry has a run of base cabinets + counters along the back wall - giving you another 102" of counterspace - gaining you 8.5 feet of more counterspace.

It could be used to create a "Snack Center" and you could use the toaster & toaster oven right there. I do recommend being sure you have good ventilation to vent any heat generated by the toaster & toaster oven.

It has open shelving above for additional storage to the ceiling - although you will probably need a stool or small ladder to access the top shelves unless you are tall.

Along the "top" side, there are floor-to-ceiling shelves that are 12" deep - ample depth for food and sundry storage. In my pantry, I have a shelf just 8" from the ceiling and store rolls of paper towels on it. It makes it very easy to get a roll when needed.

After much discussion and trial & error, we on the Forum have come to realize that shelves any deeper than 12" can be an issue - things get lost on them. In my old kitchen, I had 18" deep shelves and I was forever "losing" things. When we demo'd, I found things that had expired several years before! [Pantry thread: Pantry photos/ pics of pantries]

12" is ample for several cans deep, boxes of cereal, etc. In fact, in my pantry, I store all my small appliances and all but the toaster oven fit on the shelves. I do have to turn the breadmaker sideways, but it fits! I have a blender, full-size Cuisinart food processor, toaster, waffle iron, and breadmaker in my pantry. (The toaster oven is in the basement b/c I rarely use it.)

Finally, note that I added a door to the garage. Bringing groceries in to the pantry (and Kitchen & Refrigerator) will be quite a hike if you have to use the other garage door. You could put the door on the back wall and shorten that counter run by about 4 feet - but I was trying to maximize counterspace!

Both options are below. I prefer the first one.

Option 1: Door directly from garage

Option 2: Door from hallway

Regarding putting a refrigerator or freezer in your pantry - to be honest, it's not advisable. Refrigerators & Freezers constantly give off a lot of heat - and a constant source of heat is not good for food. For food storage, you want a cool, dry space. (That's why I recommended good ventilation if you put your toaster & toaster oven in the pantry.)

The only suggestion I have to add to Buehl's 2nd plan (much improved from where you started) is to change the swing door to a pocket door. Also, if possible, bump the pantry wall out to be even with the first step up from the garage to gain additional pantry storage.

Here's what I mean:

The only downside I can see of having a door into the pantry from the back hallway is that it may become the default way of entering the kitchen from the basement. If people are headed to the fridge and MW, not a big deal, they aren't crossing the cooking zone, but it's something to consider as you mull over ideas.

I love both of Buehl's options as well as Lisa's tweaks. Wish I had that set-up! If you keep an extra fridge and/or freezer in the garage, it will still be close and a short walk through the pantry.

michael-ohhh yes. Beuhl is right! I always forget about that part. We have to leave the door ajar as it does put off more heat than we had realized and there is no venting in there. Ours are small - not full sized and I think that helps.

Thanks everyone for the feedback. I'm working on drawing up the whole area now. I'm still trying to figure out the best place for our mud area and potentially a half bath. I'll probably put the freezer in the garage due to the heat it is generating (although on the other hand, its going to use more power/work harder being in the hot garage).

If you use lisa_a's with 2 entrances to the pantry it may just vent itself easily as I'd imagine the pocket entry door to it from the garage may stay open or ajar frequently. You could possibly fit it in the bump back to match the entrance stairs. Fridges in garages are pretty common around here but we have more issues with freezing temps than overly hot. Otherwise I'd put it in that spot in the garage where the writing says small appliances for inside the kitchen. That's not far of a walk at all.

i suppose i could also put some vents in the wall if i keep the doors closed all the time

This thread may be helpful. While the ventilation topic was driven by a different reason, some suggestions may be helpful.

I have a pantry suggestion... Ventilate!

Great thread with lots of good information.

Sorry, but I'm not a fan of the isolated fridge. Even with the island fairly close by.

Isn't this a new build? Couldn't you put a beam in or a large archway/framed opening? I'm not that thrilled with the columns/posts dividing the kitchen. I'd prefer an end wall and an opening.

@lavender_lass I probably could do an arch but the columns are more in line with the craftsman style of the house

EDIT: Actually I might not mind an arch or beam but I can't much visualize it. I'd have to find some examples to see what it looks like.