I think the layout looks pretty good.

Where does the butler's pantry go? To a formal dining area?

Do you really need island seating with the dinette table right there? When you have back-to-back seating, it's recommended that there be a minimum of 60" clearance for people to sit in their chairs without knocking into each other. How much space is between island and dinette table?

The gas vs. induction issue has been discussed a lot here. You can easily find those discussions with a search. Many former gas owners have switched to induction and report that they would never go back to gas.

42" aisles would effectively make that aisle suitable for a single cook only. There is not enough room for two workers to go about their tasks without congestion. 36"....NEVER! NKBA recommendations are 42" MINIMUM aisles for a single cook and 48" MINIMUM for multiple cooks. Some of us like more. I feel crowded with less than about 54" myself.

If it were my kitchen, I'd get rid of the island seating in order to make the aisles 48" and turn the prep sink to the fridge side so there are no issues with the person prepping and the person cooking backing into each other. You don't have a wide enough aisle for two people working like that without potential collisions.

Ignore your old island floating out in no man's land. Forgot to delete it.

That is true that we might not need the island seating with the dinette right there. I believe we will have about 48 inches from the island to the dinette, but we have some flexibilty with where that goes. We have just always had island seating and liked it.

I never considered turning the prep sink towards the fridge. That is a good idea.

The butler's pantry goes to an office right now. It could be re-purposed as a dining room, but we are not "dining room kind of people".

Will three stools work? Something like this?

4 is ideal, but 3 might work.

The problem I see with three is that I would need 6 feet of space. I only have about 4' 3" to work with if I want to keep 48 inch aisles.

I think it is either 2 or none as far as stools go.

FYI...48" b/w the island and the dining table is not enough - ask me how I know! :-(

Yes, I have 48" - due to a couple of factors:

• KD mis-measured
• Contractor centered the DR light on the room, not on the table space (and we're all too tall to not have the light centered over the table - tried it, bumped heads!)

I'm assuming there is a DR below the Butler's Pantry - that makes 3 types of seating with 2 right next to each other. If you had room for the two in the Kitchen/Dinette, I'd say do it, but you don't, unfortunately.

Aisles...are your aisles measured counter edge-to-counter edge or cabinet-to-cabinet? Aisles are measured counter-to-counter or to/from whatever sticks out into the aisle the farthest - counter edge, cabinet, wall, appliance handle, etc.

If yours are measured cab-to-cab, then your aisles are narrower than you show.

Standard counter depth is 25.5". That's 1.5" more than the 24" standard cabinet depth (which, btw, does not count cabinet door or drawer fronts).

So, just looking at counters, your aisles may be 3" narrower than you show. Factor in appliance doors & handles, and some may be even narrower.

Below the butlers pantry is an office. We would never use a dining room so we decided not to put one there. We will just use the dinette and/or island.

Aisles are counter to counter as the 25.5" is already factored in as well as the handles on the fridge.

I am beginning to agree that we just don't have the room to put stools around the island unless we went with a skinnier island and put three stools backing onto the fridge or the dishwasher.

I could shrink the island dimensions from 4'-3.5" to 3'-3.5"....and then have a 60" aisle on one side to accommodate seating. But then I may not have room for my prep sink.

I just know that our family always ends up around the island and I would love some seating there.

I'm sure I am biased but I think the prep sink turned like I showed it makes sense for function and keeping cook and prep person separated. Also gives a feeling of more space to someone on clean up duty with only one person right behind them instead of potentially two. Also more elbow room and moving around space for the chef.... Very important!

You would want an island turned like that with a sink in it to be 36" wide to contain sink splashing. How wide would your aisles be if that island was 36" wide? How wide if it was 42"?

You may be able to have one person at the end and one across from the clean up counter as long as they aren't in the way of an open dishwasher. Would two seats be enough?

I've never had a separate clean up sink and prep sink, but when I see layouts like yours I always wonder where people store their dishes/glasses/utensils. If they're most convenient between the fridge and range, you kind of have to hike everything out of the DW and around the island.

What if you eliminate the counter under the window and lengthen the island? I think the island only needs to be 41" wide which--i think-- will increase the distance between the island and dining table.

Also, I recently read here somewhere that it's most functional to have the long side of an island across from the range rather than the short side (more counter space width next to prep sink.) This makes a lot of sense to me.

Where were you planning on putting a microwave? In the drawing below, the counter space that you're considering for a wall oven would actually be a great spot for a fridge landing space and a microwave. I moved the trash/recycle pull out to be on the corner closest to the fridge...

I understand about the DR. However, since the Dinette is the only dining space, I think you need more space for the only DR available. I guess you can turn the table 90 degrees and extend into the Family/Great Room if you need a longer table for larger get-togethers.

Benjesbride just posted basically what I was working on!

Another idea I have (but not yet worked up) is to switch the cooktop and ref/freezer, but I don't know if it would fit with a cooktop + ovens and it would cause more zone-crossing. Since I haven't worked it up or thought a lot about it yet, I don't know all the ramifications of the switch.

Is the footprint of the kitchen locked in? Could you extend out into the "raised covered porch" a couple of feet?

Dish storage - where do you plan to store your dishes? In upper cabinets in the Kitchen? In a China Cabinet/Buffet in the Dinette?

Could you store them in the Dinette?

Do you already have the buffet?

I'm having trouble reading the dimensions.(My eyes are wonky, not your drawing.) Are we dealing with 21'5" x 16'11" in the kitchen/dining space?

Our little living/dining space is 16'6" wide and the dining area is in a corner, not a total walk-around. In your plan inward swinging french doors, a dining set, a buffet and traffic flow all the way around is a lot for 16'11". Probably too much for comfort, honestly.

Actually I moved the island the opposite way by putting the Freezer and Refrigerator on the long wall and making the island larger. That will give you room for the prep sink, trash and storage on the island.

Kitchen is 16'11" x 11'10". Dinette is 16'11" x 10'.

Glasses will go above dishwasher. Silverware next to dishwasher. Dishes to left of sink. We also have a buffet to the fancier stuff.

Microwave will either be built in near wall ovens or built in below the island.

In your typical work flow, would you grab a glass and get a drink out of the fridge? Grab utensils and heat something up in the MW? Or is this not an issue for you

I prefer cpartist's version of the L-shape because you have counters under a window.

Is the left wall an exterior wall? Can windows be added there? Having one small window on one end of this large room is not a lot of natural light.

I'd be looking at enlarging the window above the sink and adding windows flanking the range or at least one somewhere on the range wall. With as much linear cabinet footage as you have, plus a sizable pantry, you do not really need uppers.

Something else to consider is treating the space as a casual eat-in kitchen rather than two separate spaces. I can see something like this here:

Clontarf | Modern Kitchen · More Info

I'd let go of the swinging french doors and put a beautiful range wall with windows flanking it to the back yard. You'll probably need to expand your back porch. One bonus is that upon entering the great room, there's a pretty sight line to the range wall rather than your dirty dishes. (ETA: There's also a nice view from the island seating toward the out of doors as well as the fireplace to the right.) Like so:

Kitchen and Island looking west toward drivecourt · More Info

Here's what I came up with quickly. It's very rough since I'm not working with specific dimensions:

Thanks for all the input. I think that I need to do something L-shaped like cpartist has shown. It looks like the only way to get 4 seats at an island. I am thinking I could do an 96"x 42" island and have about a 40" aisle on each side. The aisles will be mostly for traffic so I am OK with less space. I could maybe cheat it a bit on the dishwasher side to give a few more inches there.

I will draw up something tomorrow when I am near my computer.

I like CPArtist's plan. Just a few comments (numbers on floorplan)

1. My DW door opens out to about 27" into the aisle. DW's vary. If your DW is about the same, a 42" aisle only leaves you 15" to walk around it. I'm more comfortable with at least 20" but more is better. I don't know if there are studies on this but I caution you not to cut the aisle too short or you will be forced to stand on one side of the DW to put things away on that side, close the door, go to the other side and put the items away on the other side. I think this would be inefficient and get annoying. A too narrow space to walk around is also a recipe for bonked shins.

2 & 3 kinda go together. With the buffet there, you want to ensure that walking path doesn't get too tight. If people sit at the end a lot, it could become annoying to make the turn at the buffet and turn again to walk behind someone. Here's a diagram with NKBA minimum clearance recommendations:

The Thirty-One Kitchen Design Rules, Illustrated | Homeowner Guide | Design/Buil · More Info

Oh, and here's a chart for overhang for island seating:

The Thirty-One Kitchen Design Rules, Illustrated | Homeowner Guide | Design/Buil · More Info

I strongly suggest finding some boxes and/or pieces of furniture that you can use to mock up your kitchen with your proposed aisle widths. Don't just use tape on the floor -- use 3D objects with the bulk/height that your counters will have. And after you've mocked it up, pretend to perform common task in your kitchen (dishes, cooking, grabbing a snack, etc.). Get another person in there with you and make him/her walk past you as they pretend to do the dishes while you cook or pretend to cook together or pretend one of you is cooking or cleaning while the other microwaves leftovers or unloads the dishwasher or puts away groceries. Whatever happens in your family, do that.

Aisle width comfort is kind of a personal thing, but it will be immediately apparent to you how much room you and your family personally need in your kitchen or around your furniture when you mock it up.

Walkways are the unsung heroes of homes. People forget them or skimp on them in favor of fitting in more of other stuff, and then you're left with a cramped home that fights you, grabs you, trips you every time you get up and move around. Narrow aisles in a kitchen make it impossible or annoying for people to pass each other, to pass open appliances, to pass open drawers, etc.

Mock up your walkways and make sure what you are installing will not be a constant annoyance to you.

FYI, the island is assuming 24" deep cabinets with a 15" overhang. I kept your 48" wide aisle by the sink and of course between the cooktop counter and the island.

However if you do a 96" aisle that only leaves you 36" on the side opposite the sink. That wouldn't be enough room to put a fourth seat and move around the island. It would work fine if you are only using that space as a walk through. I actually have a 36" space between my island and my counter to walk into the dining room. It's plenty big enough just as a walking space. However I'm between two open areas and not one being a wall.

Personally if it was me, I'd do an 88" island like I have it. 3 seats on the long run and one on the shorter run. That would give you 42" on the pantry side of the island. The actual cabinet space would be 6' long assuming the same 15" overhang on the pantry side of the island.

I wouldn't skimp on aisle space (says this woman who will be skimping between her own dining table and her island. ;) )

It looks nice but it all depends on the aisle widths. It does look like a nicer, clearer path to the F/F without a seat there.

For seating, you need to provide a minimum of 24" for each seat. Remember, that's minimum as you need room for moving elbows. Most adults appreciate around 30".

Did you move your range to the right a bit? I think the range and clean-up sinks are a bit too close together which could mean people doing each task are a bit too close together, might back into each other. Hard to tell without measurements. If you want the sink under the window, can the window be either moved to the right?

Most people report that they don't like prep sinks centered on the island. It's better to have the sink moved to one side which gives you a larger prep area. It should move closer to the F/F.

A combined landing space between fridge and range should be at least 27" per NKBA.

I don't recall the NKBA recommendation for the landing space next to the sink to place items prior to washing and prepping. 18" seems like the minimum. Maybe someone can pop in with the correct recommendation.

Please follow Jillius's advice re doing a mock-up and working with it in various ways, both solo and with 2 or more others. It really does open your eyes up to design flaws.

i agree about the need to really sort out the aisle widths.

i'm really aware of sight lines and it would bother me that the clean up sink is viewed from the great room entrance.

Also the dishes not being next to where I'd use them most is an inefficiency id try to avoid. (If you eat cold cereal, the flow might be dishwasher-pantry-fridge.; lots of extra steps.) Puting the clean up sink near the pantry entry would remedy these, but planning is all about compromises. having a sink under a window might be more important than those two things, it's just good to choose rather than be surprised by it when you move in.

Here are the aisle and island dimensions.

2'10" deep island will only give you a 8" overhang. You need at least 15" overhang for most adults to sit comfortably for any length of time, that's a 41" deep island instead of 34" on the island ends you're proposing .

What size table do you want in the dining area? The walkway between table and buffet looks too small as does the clearance for the French doors.

I am showing the dining table with the leaf installed. 99% of the time there will not be a leaf and we will only have a 5 foot table instead of the 7 foot table shown.

How far "proud" of the counter will the fridge doors/handles protrude into the aisle?

Sorry that I out all these comments separately. I'm on my phone.

standard counter depth is 25.5". Does your drawing reflect this it just 24" for the cabinets?

it reflects 25.5". I am not certain on the fridge handles since I haven't bought them yet. We are probably going with the Electrolux Icon fridge/freezer combo.

I'd get a longer narrower table, as in farmhouse or trestle table and turn it 90 degrees. Those who are at times talking with kitchen person have the island...the contrast of the "other way"view will be better....pushing furthur away from kitchen and into living space works and makes better dynamic for people. No hassle about aisles, get a country table and turn it the other way. do you need those small partition walls..they won't really do much ...I'd get rid of them. Your space is open, you can use those diagonal spots for chairs. Let a big long table extend down there a bit.

We have been thinking about getting rid of those partition walls.

I like the partition walls. You have two obstacles on each end of the dining area to contend with--the french doors and the buffet--and I don't think the partition walls make a difference. If the french door was a slider and there was no buffet, then I could see removing the partition walls.

The walls provide nice definition to the family room area. Depending on your style, a cased opening there would add some architectural interest.

We have considered some load bearing posts instead of the partition walls. Something like this:

everyone looks at this kind of thing differently...I find those ridiculous to be blunt.....the room has a lot of detail around the fireplace and these are just in the way, really, when a bookcase or small antique chest or side chair can go nicely in these spots.... oh well.....

If you love those posts, that's cool. They're not my taste at all and I don't think they add anything good to the space. I would do a full, cased opening like below to define the living room and add interest or I'd do nothing and just have the kitchen/dining/living all one big room.

Washington Street - 2 · More Info

I would do one post on either side with a 3' high bookcase. So the post would end in the bookcase.

Your island must be a minimum of 41" for counter height chairs. What are you dimensions between fridge and cooktop?

I agree with bb that the prep sink should be closer to the pantry side of the island.

As for the other comments about cereal in the pantry. Personally I have a breakfast cabinet that holds all the stuff we have for breakfast. That includes cups, sugars, teas, etc. I also have a snack cabinet for things for snacking. One shelf for us and another for our dog. Only thing i keep in the pantry are unopened boxes of things. Extras. Also things like canned goods I am not using on a daily basis. Anything I use on a daily or multiple x a week goes into one of the drawers or cabinets so I don't see that as an issue like bb does.

Make sure all your lowers are drawers. Much more efficient use of space and easier to use.

cpartist....I like that.

You're welcome to use it if you'd like. As I said this is a craftsman house so most of the details in my home will be craftsman. If your home isn't craftsman, you could adjust it so they fit your style and the height of your ceilings. Ours are 10' and I intend for the frieze at the 8' mark to run around the whole room. In fact that frieze will run through all rooms except probably the hallways and upstair rooms.

I rarely comment on aesthetics because I think so much of that is personal preference. Just want to chime in that I agree with with both benjesbride's and cpartist's suggestion. Please don't use the double columns on each side.

I'll just repeat some aisle advice and then I'll stay quiet on this issue. For me, your plan wouldn't work. You do have the recommended MINIMUM in your range/prep sink aisle for multiple cooks, and you do have the MINIMUM in the clean-up aisle for one person to work there, and you do have the MINIMUM on the "south" end. When we used furniture to mock-up our kitchen aisles (buffet and counter-height work table), we quickly realized that these minimums did not work for us. Not at all. Sure, if we wanted to stay hyper-alert to what was going on around us, we could have made the minimums work. But we found this quite annoying after a short while. We increased our working aisle to 54" and it's MUCH better. As our peninsula is not yet finished and attached to the floor, we may widen it even a bit more.

So you really need to play with real items to see if the aisles that narrow will really work for you. I don't recall the ages of your children but, IIRC, they are still quite young. Imagine them as teenagers wanting to snack while you're cooking dinner. Or imagine all of you cooking/cleaning in the kitchen at the same time. Will those aisles work then?

Good advice funkycamper. Kids are still young and I don't ever think of them being teens.

I should have made my house bigger!

It might be nice to have one stool on the end. Stools all lined up can
be like a diner...difficult to converse with anyone not sitting next to
you.