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ruthj98

Seeking Advice regarding my two Sugar Maple Trees

I have an average sized city lot in southern Ontario. My backyard has two very mature sugar maple trees. The diameter of each of these two trees at chest level is about 24 inches.

I am unhappy with the fact that I am unable to grow much in the ground because of the shade and root competition. As you can see from my forum name (newhostalady), I am into hostas. So I grow much of what I have in pots or spin out bags.

This year I have noticed that there always seem to be an increase in dead branches and dead leaves to pick up. It always looks messy. So I decided to see about getting a trimming (to allow more sunlight) and removal of dead wood. The arborist told me that that would be possible to do. He also said that the trees need to be fertililzed and that sugar maples do not like pea gravel because it changes the acidity of the soil. My husband built a patio last year, and we put pea gravel around one of the trees. My husband also put pea gravel under the patio. The estimate to trim and fertilize is $1,700 plus 13% tax! Ouch!

So my questions are:

(1) Has anyone ever heard of pea gravel affecting the acidity of the soil? Should we remove the pea gravel around the base of the one maple?

(2) Is it possible for us to fertilize the trees. How and when is best?

(3) Does it seem like it is a good idea for us to spend that kind of money to trim these trees? ($1,500 + 13%)

I would love to hear your views.

P.S. Before you tell me to cut down the tree or trees, the city imposes a fine for removing the tree. Then I will require to plant another tree (maybe even more than one!). And I will be restricted as to what kind of tree I can choose. (Cost here is for removal of tree + fine + purchase of new tree and planting). So the decision to remove any tree is to be taken very seriously.



Comments (26)

  • ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
    8 years ago

    move.... lol ...


    you paid this arborist????


    a truly certified professional ????


    ken

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  • newhostalady Z6 ON, Canada
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    When I first moved into this home thirty years ago, I thought that we just needed to cut down one of these two trees. I found it too shady. But with time we got used to it. At that time, we would have just had to pay for the cutting down of the tree because there were no bylaws regarding trees then. If only we had known!

    Ken the trees haven't been trimmed yet. Yup, he is a certified professional arborist.

    Toronado, thanks for your advice. I will definitely be getting another estimate (or two) for the trim.

    My husband says that we should fertilize ourselves. I am not sure it is just that simple.

  • ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
    8 years ago

    mature trees.. especially maples.. do not need fert ..


    consider that its root mass can be twice what you see above ... and conceptualize that ...


    if you fert your lawn.. they will get whatever they need... and they dont need anything ...


    i do not believe.. on any level.. something done one year ago.. could so substantially change pH.. that it would SHOW ... in one year ... things simply dont happen that fast in the tree world time ... tom likes to call them vast storage systems ... which is one reason.. it can take a tree a long time to die ...


    i can not comment on trimming costs.. since i cant see the tree .. i suggest you get at least 2 other bids on the trimming job ... insure the providers are insured ... thats the only real way to determine the local market ...


    ken

  • newhostalady Z6 ON, Canada
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    "mature trees.. especially maples.. do not need fert .. " That's interesting.

    "consider that its root mass can be twice what you see above" Yes, that confirms what the arborist said---that the roots could extend two to three times the canopy. So if they were to come and fertilize, then they would only be fertilizing approx. 40% of the root mass.

    Yes, we fertilize the lawn, but I do not know whether my neighbors do.

    "it can take a tree a long time to die" That makes sense. My neighbor built up around her maple tree. That was about 10 years ago. The tree is definitely dying now and has bare branches and reduced amount of leaves.

    I will work on getting a couple more estimates.

    Here's a picture of my house and the two sugar maple trees in my backyard. My house is a two storey at the back. The tree at the very left is a river birch.

  • ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
    8 years ago

    looks just like the one that crashed onto moms roof 2 years ago ... but hers was 15 feet from the house.. and 65 feet tall ...


    will anyone argue with the fact that she ferts her lawn.. so any other fert.. would be voodoo boat payment sorcery??? ...


    i want to here what tom says .. he appears to be gone for the weekend ...


    trimming or pruning costs.. are highly local ... cant really speak of that ... and is highly dependent on whether a bucket truck can get back there.. or they have to go all tarzan on them ... ropes and vines and what not ...


    i might still get an estimate or two.. from tree dudes ... not necessarily the cert'd dudes ...


    out of curiosity.. what did your expert charge you for the consult ????



    ken

  • newhostalady Z6 ON, Canada
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    When one of these large trees fall, it can be very dangerous and damaging as in your mom's house. One of our trees is 7 feet from the house and the other is 14 feet away. I am not sure of the height.

    Pruning won't be done by a bucket truck. They are going to have to use ropes. That's probably why it costs so much.

    I'm working on estimate #2 and will look for a third. Not sure I can find an uncertified person to do it.

    Consults are free . . . well, at least they make you think so . . .





  • ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
    8 years ago

    i truly thought.. that if you want an educated tree surgeon.. tree doctor .. you have to pay for a consultation ...


    see link ..


    i can not conceptualize.. that you dont have an equivalency in canada ...


    neighbors got hit with emprelis damage.. and i met a few of such.. none of them did any kind of tree trimming.. that wasnt their business ...


    i am not sure about your guy????


    ken


    https://www.google.com/search?q=isa+certified+arborist&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8


    canada????:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=isa+certified+arborist&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8#q=isa+certified+arborist+canada


  • wisconsitom
    8 years ago

    Got to be honest-I'm not sure what the question is here. But in any case, a bit of pea gravel around a mature tree is utterly incapable of causing any significant change in pH of the underlying soil. I won't get into the mechanics of that just now, but really, just not an issue.

    As for fertilization, that is almost certainly of no value here. I mean, there could be some nutrient or other which, upon being raised, good elicit some growth response, but that's not what we're after in our landscapes. We just want normal, healthy appearance and growth of our plants. Obviously, these maples have done well in this site. End of story.

    Pruning can always be recommended in mature trees, if for no other reason than to "clean up" the crowns a bit. So, any deadwood, any crossing limbs of sufficient size to matter, any limbs that are too low and get in the way of human activity. But for that, you should work with only certified guys.

    I'm concerned that your consultant actually would have you doing something as mindless as removing a bit of pea gravel, all the while knowing the true extent of those trees' root systems is likely to take them far and wide. The alleged problem, I'm sure, is one of a too-high soil pH being caused by that gravel. Trust me, it just doesn't work that way. I mean, there's a kernel of truth in the center of that concern, but it's way out of proportion to what can and/or will actually happen. BTW, if you suspect a pH problem with any given plant in your landscape, the first sign would be chlorotic (yellowish) foliage on a plant that should be a regular green color. I see no indication of chlorosis in the foliage color.


    +oM

  • edlincoln
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    I haven't heard about pea gravel in particular. But I've heard stones around trees can be bad. Roots need air, too much stone could compact the soil and I imagine (as toronado3800 said) keep the roots from breathing. Sugar maples are notorious for not liking being paved around. Depending on the color it could heat up and radiate heat towards the tree. As far as soil acidity...there are a million kinds of stone out there. I don't doubt there is some kind of stone out there that is highly acidic and would leach acid into the soil with each rain. Pea gravel is just stone ground to a certain size...no telling what kind of stone. I'd have thought it would be more likely to be lime stone that makes soil basic, but hey. By rights no one should say the soil should be fertilized or is too acidic without first doing a soil test. You can do that yourself, actually. Pick up a kit at Home Depot and mail it in. Buy litmus paper and stick it in the gravel after a rain.

  • wisconsitom
    8 years ago

    Yes Ed, the usual problem (or perceived problem) is one of soil becoming too alkaline. It makes sense but is usually way overstated. And also true-most pea gravel is limestone in origin. But very, very stable material. The pH changes are just not that big a thing......unless you're talking a lot of gravel with a lot of limestone dust in it. Nothing about this little story suggests that to me.

    +oM

  • newhostalady Z6 ON, Canada
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    Had a look at your links, Ken. I think there are some tree companies there and also a way to check out whether the tree experts are actually certified arborists.

    Always good to get another consult or two. I'd hate to pay that kind of money ($1,500 + 13%) and be unhappy with the results. Should have had them cut down one of the trees 25 years ago when there were no tree permits and all the red tape you have to go through now! OK . . . now back to reality!

    +om, thanks for your comments. I think that what you have said about the effects the the pea gravel and the fertilization make sense---also the pruning of trees and taking a pH test when in doubt.

    Edlincoln, thanks for the education on stone/rock pros and cons. "By rights no one should say the soil should be fertilized or is too acidic without first doing a soil test." How dare the so-called tree expert tell me that pH may now be the problem due to the pea gravel! I agree that a pH test would be the way to determine whether pH is within the acceptable range. No point in fertilizing and/or removing pea gravel when we don't even know that that is the problem.

  • wisconsitom
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    This is a good example-I think-of someone with just enough information to be dangerous. I'm talking about the arborist that visited your site, hostalady, not you. There is indeed a widespread problem of too-high soil pH for some plants in some situations. But to then go on to "determine" that this smattering of pea gravel is causing great harm for these full-grown and apparently healthy trees is downright foolish. So you read in a book that certain types of stone can raise the pH of a soil substrate up and beyond the range required by this or that plant species....so now, every time you (not you specifically) see a little gravel on the ground, now there's a great problem for the trees? Not so.

    For very young trees, rocks and stone can reflect heat and can...I use the word sparingly...cause an issue. That's simply not the case here with these behemoths.

    +oM

  • newhostalady Z6 ON, Canada
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    I'm glad you clarified that you weren't talking about me +oM! LOL What you are saying makes sense to me.

    The first estimate came from city workers that came to trim one of our city trees---a couple of nice guys they were. I asked them about the trimming of these sugar maples. They said that they could not do it, but they had another crew that did residential work. So the first estimate I had was from this company. I am rather disappointed.

    On Friday I am having another estimate for trimming. This company removed a diseased, mature, black ash last year. We were quite happy with them. I am wondering whether there are any specific questions that I should ask them that will help identify whether these people know what they are doing (and are not trying just to make money)?

  • wisconsitom
    8 years ago

    Hostalady, I re-read your initial post, and it seems to me you come pre-loaded with the idea that something needs doing here. As all I've got to go by are your words and the rather indistinct photo, I can't tell if there really is any need to do anything. I get that you'd like to increase light levels for your shade-loving hostas, so I would tread carefully. I've got a hosta-holic brother-in-law who is facing the opposite: With emerald ash borer making itself known around here, he's in danger of losing the needed shade for his collection. So, how much more light are you after? Very generally speaking, a "raising up" of the tree, via removal of a few lower limbs, can sometimes make just enough of a difference to matter in such cases. I'd surely not think you'd want the trees gone if it's hostas you fancy. Am I missing something here?

    +oM

  • newhostalady Z6 ON, Canada
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    Thank you +oM for taking the time to re-read my initial post. I guess if I could really choose, then I think I would like to remove one of these trees. If I only have some branches removed or thinned, then that would allow more sunlight into the backyard. But having the roots from both of these trees and the roots from a mature cedar hedge is driving me crazy. I love hostas, and I understand that they can tolerant shade. But if I want to grow something in my yard, then I need to pot it up. That is a lot of work---the increase in watering, pots, media, uppotting and winterizing! Much of the soil in my backyard is very dry and can be quite hard even though we add compost almost every year.

    So if I were to have these maples thinned out, then I would have a little bit more sun and/or light penetrate my garden---and that would make my plants happier I think---and in turn I would be happier.

    After almost thirty years of living in this house, I have finally found something that brings me joy---hostas. If I had my way, I would remove my backyard grass totally and plant hostas in the soil. But the reality is that I cannot. I am angry with myself too for not having one of these maples removed after just buying the house. We would have had the expense of removal just as we have now, but would not have the $100 for the permit and have to plant another tree or add another $500 fine for the city to plant a tree somewhere else. The city also has the right to NOT allow this tree to be removed. They frown on people removing trees for frivolous reasons.

    Sorry for rambling on, but the nonstop mess of these trees this year has pushed me over the edge! If it would be helpful for me to provide pictures, then I can do that. Otherwise, I took a few photos, but am not sure if they show anything worthwhile.

    Sugar Maple Tree #1

    Sugar Maple #1
    Sugar Maple #2 (two small branches have died maybe due to barbequing? We haven't removed them because my son loves to take pictures of the birds that land on them.) Arborist said that this Sugar Maple's crown is dead. This tree is the one that is about 7 feet away from the house.

  • Toronado3800 Zone 6 St Louis
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    Interesting. I bet it is a show in the fall.

    Is the top of the one close to the house without foliage? That HAS to be removed then. Personally I have a low tolerance for anything but a perfect tree over where I sleep. Hopefully that sways the city a little.

    And top death isn't necessarily tree death in this case. My neighbor's sugar maple lost 10 to 15 feet of its leader in that tornado 2 or 3 years back. He pruned it reasonably and it is doing fine.

  • newhostalady Z6 ON, Canada
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    "Is the top of the one close to the house without foliage?" Not really that close. If you look at my first picture near the top----then it is the Sugar Maple tree on the right. I'll see what the second arborist's opinion is on that on Friday.

    Yes, I understand about top death of a tree. We had had our Black Ash tree top pruned because of crown death. The tree continued to survive many, many years.

    Just a note on the side---the builder purchased property here in 1958. The developer had an affection for trees and made a statement that he would try to preserve as many trees as possible. And he did.

  • newhostalady Z6 ON, Canada
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    So today I will get my 2nd opinion from a certified arborist. No fee again for the consult---but likely built in to the price quoted. The 1st quote was for trimming and thinning, and they recommended fertilizing. I will ask again for the trimming and thinning, but will also ask what the likelihood would be for the city to grant permission to remove one of the trees. They should have an idea from past experience. And if so, which tree.

    As for my hostas---would they suffer from too much sun if one tree was removed? Well, Ken says hostas are shade tolerant---not necessarily a requirement. Depends on how much sun and how strong the sun is.

  • wisconsitom
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    Yes, hosta cultivars vary in their shade "requirement". But most do best with some degree of shade.

    I'd like to caution against too much crown "thinning". You have an objective-to get more light down to the ground layer-but especially with shade-tolerant trees, ie, maples, too much messing around with thinning can set the stage for sun scald. What's more, the tree will simply try to replace all the removed foliage via new growth. That whole "thinning out" thing is kind of bogus. On the other hand, whole branch removal-I'm talking about lower branches here-is an approved practice which can also increase light levels at the ground level. I cringe at the thought of how many good trees have been abused in the vain quest for "thinning". The tree actually knows how much foliage to have. It will fight you back if you try to change that ratio too much.

    You said one tree has dead crown. I'm not sure I'm seeing that. The crown is simply the upper portion-the part where the branches are. If the top of the tree is in fact dying or dead, that does suggest serious issues, most likely in the root zone. Dead top on tree almost always means compromised root system. But too, if that is the case, the municipality should, I would think, factor that in to their tree preservation rules. I don't know.

    Look into the wide world of hostas too. Some handle more shade than others.

    Finally, I'm well-aware of the rootzone competition big maples can provide. I once had hostas in my back yard. I also had the largest silver maple in my city in that small back yard. The hostas grew a little each year.....smaller, that is! So that is an issue.

    +om

  • newhostalady Z6 ON, Canada
    Original Author
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    What you are saying makes sense to me +oM about the thinning of trees and that they "will fight you back if you try to change that ratio too much." And I see that you understand exactly what I mean when you said that you had a large silver maple in your backyard and that the "hostas grew a little each year.....smaller, that is! So that is an issue." Absolutely, right on! That has happened in my backyard with almost everything I have tried to grow. Also, if I think about adding raised beds, my husband says that I am blocking the drainage flow. And if I were to remove my grass and add spin out material, that would be expensive and would perhaps damage the root system of these Sugar Maples. Seems like I can't win. So my solution has been to use pots.

    Now for certified arborist #2 who came today. He stated first of all that he was not able to do any thinning for us due to the proximity of our hydro wires. He said that I would have to get a company that had a special permit to do this and said that I needed to ask whether that company was insured. He said that since he was here anyways, he would answer questions that I had.

    Question #1: What are the chances that the city would allow me to cut down one tree?

    Answer: He said it was hard to say because the city has granted approval to cut trees that he thought they never would. If they did allow one of these trees to be removed, then he thought they would require one or maybe even two to be planted as replacements. I forgot to ask about the crown dying on one of them. Darn!!!

    Question #2: Can these maples be trimmed and thinned out?

    Answer: Now this was the interesting part for me. He said that there were some dead branches to be removed and that a bit of thinning could be done. But he also said that each of these trees had a water sprout---I had never heard of that before---and that those could be removed and would probably allow a bit more sunlight into the yard.

    So I googled water sprout and took some pictures for you to see. Do you really think that removal of this water sprout would be a good idea? It's not that small of a branch anymore.

    Here is Tree #1. The water sprout is the limb on the right.

    Tree #2. The water sprout is the limb on the right.

    I would love to hear some comments!

  • newhostalady Z6 ON, Canada
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    Wondering if I should start a new thread on water sprouts?

  • wisconsitom
    8 years ago

    I'd no longer call that a "water sprout" (or sucker, or adventitious branch or....) any longer. It is now a part of the tree's crown proper. I wish I could disabuse you of the notion that a meaningful amount of "thinning" can be done to these trees without doing more harm than good. I will repeat-see about whole-branch removal, from the bottom of the crown, ie, the lowest branches. See about "crown cleaning" which would primarily (in this case) amount to removing dead wood, and little more.

    One final note about growing hostas and other garden plants under vigorous maples and the like: So, let's say you decide that maybe your hostas just need to be planted into little micro-beds of improved stuff....lots of compost, etc. I'm afraid the tree will simply look at your efforts and say "thank you" for the small areas of soil improvement you've done, the tree's roots rapidly colonizing those little areas of improvement. Seen that happen before too!

    +oM

  • newhostalady Z6 ON, Canada
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    Ok +oM, you have convinced me that (1) trimming these mature trees will just promote more growth and therefore is unnecessary; (2) that dead wood can be removed and will not harm the tree (3) that these water sprouts are now too old to be removed without harming the tree and (4) I shall not amend any soil specifically for my hostas without having the expectation that my tree roots will find it and enjoy it also.

    Everything you have said makes so much sense---how can I not listen to your advice/suggestions.

    The only sadness that I have is the realization that I cannot use most of my backyard garden soil for planting. That's something I am finding difficult to accept. I needed someone to tell it like it is, and you did just that. I do thank you.







  • wisconsitom
    8 years ago

    On the positive side, there may be other genera of plants more able to compete with maple tree roots than are hostas. Now, there's lots of perennial plants, so I'm loath to beginning a list, but suffice to say, there's more under the sun (and under the shade of trees!) than just hostas.

    +oM

  • newhostalady Z6 ON, Canada
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    But I love hostas!!!!! Ok, Ok---I am listening---I just put a couple of books on hold on the dry shade garden (and planting in difficult areas) at my public library. Maybe I'll find something else I can love---maybe.