Gw, there is actually already a line where the pot filler could go, If I go that route.

The idea of a peninsula is fine, but I don't know if it really accomplishes anything because I can't put anything in it unless we build a wall to run the gas lines through for the stove like benjes suggested earlier. Otherwise it's just extra storage and I already have a ton on the opposite wall.

I really like the pictures that Lisa posted of the stove with the small open cabinet next to it and the small counter on the side next to a doorway. It kind of helps to see that others have done the same thing... although I can't ask them if they like it like that!

I will fool around with it tonight and see what I can do about eliminating that corner cabinet. I'm not sure I know how to make it work within the ikea program - they kind of force you to make that space useful, or "useful" in my case.

I haven't been following the discussion regarding putting the range perpendicular to the sink and I don't exactly understand the challenge, but in the planner there is a 9" open shelf base cabinet, "Ho." I couldn't find it on the Ikea website, just the planner. Were you trying to get the range closer to the sink side? It makes for a really cramped primary prep space in such a large kitchen

What did you just call me?

Just kidding, I forgot about that sucker!

But you're right, it does sacrifice prep area to get more space on the side of the stove if it goes against the back wall. Hm. Maybe I will just try to keep the 12" cabinet and just not ever put anything on it but a spatula.

Ha!

My name is also Sarah, so when people call you "Sarah" upthread I felt a moment of confusion.

When you were at the house today did you measure the location of the doorway? It's not clear how much space you're working with on the plans.

it's a good name :) The space between the left wall and the door is exactly 80.5" (but no drywall yet).

The door swings into the laundry? This may be a random and horrible idea, but if the door was installed the other way so it swings into the kitchen, it would create kind of a (potentially flammable, yet) safe barrier to the stove.

Let the record officially show I don't approve of this range location and my vote was cast for window elimination, but I do empathize with you. I suspect your husband is like mine and doesn't understand what all the kitchen fuss is about. I just tried to talk to mine about sink options. Yeah right.

Ok, so, I keep coming back to this:

It keeps everything on the same wall and food storage is toward the front so people don't interrupt the work space getting snacks.

I would like to get an easy reach upper for the corner (thanks to whoever suggested!) and maybe a side opening spice cabinet for the upper above the 12" to the right of the stove...

Which side should the DW go on? Still the right?

What am I missing? I know it's not ideal, but I think that ship has maybe sailed.

@benjes no, he definitely does not get what all the fuss is about. He sees no difficulty in carting pots of water across 8 feet. But he's also over six feet while I'm barely five, so our strides are a little different...

Sarah, you have received a lot of advice and your head must be spinning. If I could suggest that you actually go into the Ikea near you, that *might* make a world of difference in helping you best understand your choices. I suspect the software offered on the website is very different from what an associate at Ikea uses. Don't let crappy on-line software guide you in what are permanent decisions. I have had to build a lot of Ikea wardrobes when I lived overseas once and I can verify that the online planner stinks.

@mobuddy yes, yes it is. But I definitely feel like whatever giant mistake I finalize in my kitchen I will have made with my eyes wide open :)

And, actually, we were just at ikea a couple weeks ago and the software I'm using online is the exact same as what the employees use in store! Just as clunky and difficult to use everywhere you go :D

But yes, going in again and talking to an employee would probably be very helpful at this point.

I just tried to fit a 38" corner cabinet, a 30" range and a 12" cabinet on that back wall and it adds up to 82". How are you fitting all that into 80" with door trim?

ETA: Duh. Apparently I'm not a math whiz.

ETA: It's customary to put an end panel and a counter overhang on the side of an exposed cabinet, so it would end up being 82" unless you skip those.

Another way to think of the DW placement is between the fridge and the sink. So in this layout, the DW would be left of sink.

The ship has not sailed. The window is not in. They could frame up the hole. fill in the sheathing and return the window. Buehl creates wonderful zone maps with colored circles that I have no idea how to do, but they're great for illustrating the function of a kitchen.

Buehl?? Anyone?

38 + 30 + 12 = 80", right? It's 80.5" from the wall up to the trim.

I will bring up removing the window with my husband again, but if he's utterly opposed then my hands are tied - we both agreed to have ultimate veto power on this project.

ETA: hubs just said that if I want to close in the window, he's fine with it. He also likes the idea of a peninsula.

Is that what I want to do...?

Somebody make this decision for me. My brain is mush. And while you're at it, I have some tile in the master bath that needs deciding too!

If the issue is that he just wants a window, dangit, would he compromise by moving the window to the left? Since it's 15 square feet it might be tempered glass in which case code might allow it closer to the french door. If you move it closer to the french door and can get 6 feet between edge of sink and edge of window you would have room for the range. And if the sill height is at 36" you could just incorporate the countertop into that sill.

If it's possible to incorporate the countertop into the sill, why wouldn't I just keep the window where it is, put the range where I have the fridge and extend the countertop on the left of the range? Would that not leave enough room between the sink and the range?

I think that's a great idea, although you'll have a small prep area. You can have a cutting board made to fit over the sink, which will extend the prep area.

GW discussions--windows to the counter.

You mentioned that you'd like to ask how people like having the blind corners blocked, so here's a link:

GW discussions on blind corners.

One more thought: what if I don't exactly love the idea of cooking out toward the dining area next to the table? On the one hand, I have more access to the kids if they're in the living room, but on the other hand, sometimes I like to do my thing with privacy and without interruption.

Mamagoose: thanks for the link. I'm not so concerned with the blind corner as I am with the 12" counter though - that's more what I was wishing I could ask about.

Well, if you're like me and you want a clear delineation between your work space and family space, then I'd reconsider the peninsula-ish plan with the perpendicular wall.

Regarding keeping the window where it's at... Enough room between sink and range is subjective. I'd want another 6-12 inches, but this is functional. Secondly, it looks kind of strange. Thirdly, you're losing wall cabinet storage. BUT if it's between this and the cramped corner option I'd choose this.

I liked the original plan but it does leave a lot of center floor space...I prefer the peninsula/banquette seating plan. You can install long drawers under the banquette seats and greatly increase your storage space.

I agree that there is not enough space for an island.

A cutting board over the sink is an excellent idea. It adds usable space and makes it much easier to shove the cuttings straight into the garbage disposal (and keep the counters clean).

I would try to have a large section of countertop between the sink and the stove and I would try to avoid having the dishwasher in that section.

I would put The two almost same size windows at or above standard counter height so that you could easily move things around if you wanted to later. Since they appear so close in size, from both the inside and the outside it may be better if they are in fact identical size. Where possible i would use sliding doors and pocket doors because they interfere less with furniture placement.

You have to pick your battles wisely. My DH hates making ANY changes but some have been worth fighting for (most changes raise the budget, but several have actually worked out to be less expensive then the original plan).

P.s. I would not put a wall between the kitchen and the banquette area. I would want the area to feel as open and spacious as possible.

What if you keep the fridge/sink/stove lineup on the left, and the right becomes a wall of shallow (15" vs 24") floor-to-ceiling pantries? You would gain almost a foot, which leaves room for your island and bigger aisles. You keep your ice-water-stone-fire order, with the main prep area (stone) being the island. That eliminates the need to maximize the counter in the corner between the sink and range, and you can have a bigger buffer between the range and doorway. It also gives you the island as a possible landing zone for everything,

Structurally, you wouldn't have to change anything, right? And I think that for most families 15" deep of storage (particularly a full wall of it) would be plenty.

You can also get more prep space if you sacrifice centering the sink under the window. Slide it down more towards the laundry room and you will instead have your prep space in front of the window. Or, consider a corner sink with the dishwasher around the corner on the short leg, separated from the sink by a small cabinet. There isn't a ton of love for corner sinks (only 1 person can be at the sink at a time), but here, it solves a problem.

I love Gennifer's idea of a wall of 15" deep floor to ceiling pantries. These cabs could also hold small appliances etc with no need for expensive pull outs or drawers. You get to keep your original plan with enough space for an island - maybe play with the range placement, and that's it. Genius.

Gennifer that is.... interesting. Very interesting. I will have to mock it up because that would solve several problems. I feel like exchanging all the counter space on the other side for cabinets is risky, but I guess if it's too far away to use as viable cooking or prep space then it really just becomes a magnet for clutter.

That would be a LOT of cabinet space though... But no pull outs or drawers in a 15" pantry?

@michey that is true, but the view from that window is amazing and I am quite attached to it :) I would be willing to slightly offset it though, If necessary.

Sarah- I think it would be okay if you started a new thread now that your constraints are clearly defined. -- the sink must be under the window because plumbing is in the slab, you have 80" between exterior wall and the opening to the laundry room and the door cannot be moved because it's structural.

If you follow Buel's instructions for requesting kitchen help (how many cooks, appliances, etc.) it'll help others help you.

Its unclear if you still want your 6 person dining table in that space behind the stairs. If you move the table out, you'll gain storage in the kitchen, but you'll lose a lot of space in the great room.

i think after so many comments a lot of people may have checked out of the discussion. A new thread might offer you fresh eyes and new ideas.

Thank you benjes, will do. I think that we were already considering moving the dining area out toward the french doors. Thank you guys for all your patience and help!

Gennifer has a good idea--if your aisles are 42", you'll have room for a 26" island (24+overhangs) and 15" pantries. You can have counter on that side, too. While 15" isn't really deep enough to prep, it's plenty of room to make a sandwich or pour a bowl of cereal. Instead of drawers and pull-outs, you could have something like this on the doors:

And I like michey's suggestion, but I thought the sink couldn't be moved. How much can you offset it? If you can move the sink over, can you have the window reframed to center it? You'd still be using the same window, and that would leave more room between the sink and range.

I threw one more idea into the planner. I guess it's a one-wall open island galley type of situation. I snagged 2 extra feet toward the french doors, increasing to 20 feet so you have more space between fridge-range-sink. It creates an island with seating for four littles, but keeps traffic out of the kitchen proper. You definitely lose upper cabinet storage

ETA: You could put a high cabinet in the far right corner to the right of the sink for additional storage.

ETA: This does not follow Ice-Water-Stone-Fire.

Here are my calculations 26" outer counter+40" aisle +42" island = 42 inch walkway between island and wall.

Can you create storage under the stairs that you can access from the kitchen side? If so, that might make the island idea more feasible.

I had the same idea as Gennifer, just didn't have time to draw it up until now.

If you install the pantry cabs between studs - no structural changes - you'd gain about 3" of space that you can give to aisles or island. It wouldn't create more storage in the island but by using false panels on the back of the Ikea cabs, you could gain a deeper island for more counter space.

Here are pics of narrow islands.

User BIG Before/After Kitchens · More Info

Home Expansion & Remodel - Westfield, NJ · More Info

Same kitchen from opposite a

Home Expansion & Remodel - Westfield, NJ · More Info

The above kitchen has a fairly similar lay-out to what you're considering.

Classic Modern · More Info

Great User Kitchens · More Info

Here's what I mean by using the stud space for storage. This isn't as deep as I'm suggesting nor is it using cabinets but hopefully it gives you an idea of what I'm suggesting.

Feng Shui Fix · More Info

DC Design House · More Info

100 Square Foot Kitchen Remodel · More Info

With benjesbride's latest plan you could make the long blank wall a chalkboard/dry erase/kid art wall. :)

ETA, the 'classic modern' kitchen that lisa_a posted is gorgeous!

So, I feel like my choice is between having the stove with not enough room around it or having it way across from the sink. The weird length of the ikea corner cabinet is a big part of what is killing me space-wise.

Which is why I suggested this yesterday:

Many folks here have done blind corners and then used the storage in that cabinet in other areas. I would put drawers in the laundry room. Unfortunately, they will be just behind the door but if you store items there that are not needed daily that shouldn't matter. You could store rarely used kitchen items, seasonal items, or even just use it for storage of things like hats, gloves, and scarves for outdoor play.

Drawers would be placed at #3 in the laundry area. That totally solves the range issue, gives you a wider cabinet between range and laundry room door, and you don't lose the storage.

"Just wanted to chime in that to frame out a pantry, you don't need to tamper with the existing wall. That wall will serve as the back of the pantry. You'd basically just add a front wall with doorway and then a side wall connecting the front wall to the back wall, add some shelves and you're golden! This would be a reach-in pantry, likely only be 1-2 feet deep, but lining the walls with properly spaced shelves will give you lots of accessible storage, and likely much cheaper than any cabinetry pantry. And you don't need to mess with the load-bearing capacity of the back wall."

You could move the window a bit farther away from the range so you have more prep space between sink and range. However, if you can't move the window, you spend more time prepping than at the sink anyway, per time studies on kitchen tasks, so you would still have the window to look out while prepping and sinks do not have to be centered on windows anyway.

In this configuration, your DW should be on the left side of the sink in order to not be in the prep area.

It seems to me that this is the easiest and least expensive kitchen solution at this point.

Oh, walked away before I submitted and lots of new posts. I really like Lisa's plan. If you do that, it would be cool to still do the framed in pantries with sliding doors to save money and you'll have great storage for a small cash outlay. Making the doors chalkboards would be great for your kids.

Funky - The wall between the kitchen and laundry is structural and likely cannot can't be altered to create access to the back corner cabinet, but that's otherwise a great solution. I think the hang up with putting the range on that wall is that it only allows for about 12 inches of counter to the right of the range at a potentially high traffic area from backyard/garage for 4 little kids.

I will make a new thread as soon as I am at my desktop. This one is getting unwieldy.

A couple things:

Benjes is right, I can't move the sink now, I forgot my own limitations!

I am totally fine with a BCC.

I love the classic modern kitchen!

I can't cut into the sheer (shear?) wall, but could probably go between the studs and could definitely frame around it.

How would uppers or modified ikea pantry cabinets be used for the 15" depth? would that be more difficult/expensive than building our own shelves and framing them out?

I really like this idea.

I haven't familiarized myself too much with Sektion, but with Akurum, you could easily hack 15" pullouts if that's what you wanted. (I did that for a couple of 30" drawers in my upper cabinets, when they didn't offer them.) There are also other products for pullouts on the market that you install into existing kitchens, so you could definitely do it.

The biggest concern I had with the original layout is that the countertop on the right side is not usable. I can't imagine lugging all of my food there to prep... It's just too far away to functional.

You could also have electrical in those cabinets, and keep things like your toaster, etc., always plugged in and on a slide out. Pull it out, use it, and then slide it back in and shut the door.

Honestly, 15" sounds about perfect, especially since you're not exactly tall. Plus, having them floor-to-ceiling is taking advantage of your husband's height, too!

Or am I the only one that finds stuff shoved at the back by not-so-helpful members of my family?

The new sektion already has 15" deep wall cabinets, like this:

I thought that you might find it helpful to see my kitchen plan (remodel nearly
completed) as well as a pic of the cabs in that corner before counters were installed. As you can see, that corner is inaccessible.

I am *so* glad I did this! It's cheaper and provides more usable storage for
us.

You should be able to do this using Ikea cabs. You'll need to build a box in the corner to support the counter and add spacers out from each corner.

My cabs are zero clearance, face frame. I have the clearance of frameless but the structural support of face frame cabs.

While this thread is still active, I'll post some observations from
personal experience. Do you and your husband DIY at all? I love between
the studs storage, and I've done several in my old house--shallow and
deep (in the eaves). Unless you are happy with unfinished stud bays or
can take the time to finish them yourself, that's going to be a major
expense for a drywall finisher and carpenter. Think about running
sheetrock around all those studs, and taping corners. Also, unless your
framers are picky-perfect, the studs might wander a little from 16" on
center--the guys who framed our new addition were of the
'close-enough--no-one-will-see-this' mindset, so shelf widths will also
vary slightly, if each bay has a different
width.

I think it's a great idea, if you have the time, or it's in
the budget. I would consider using inexpensive, pre-primed, mdf
beadboard to finish the bays, and around the studs. That's easy if you
already have sheetrock on the other side of the wall--just cut the sheet
to fit and glue it to the back. Will you have the shared wall under the
stairs finished with wall board? I've built plywood boxes, up to 24"
deep, to fit between studs, and into the void behind a knee wall, so if
the space under the stairs isn't already earmarked for other storage,
you can do that for extra pantry space. I think it would be neat to
frame the pantries as michey suggests, and have old-fashioned canning cellar type storage
with notched shelves and 2x4s (as the stair slope permits). benjesbride's examples are similar, without the extra stud bay space. If you use the stud space + 12 inches, 3" could be added to the width of the island.,

This is putting the cart before the horse, and if you use the Ikea pantry cabs the info won't be necessary, but it's something to consider.

Thank you for the details, mamagoose! My husband is a big DIYer, but has a very demanding job. I would trust our contractors to do it, but will see if would be less expensive going with ikea and just putting it together ourselves. Plus, I know for a fact that that wall is a load bearing wall - would it really be okay to cut our between the studs? (Obviously not into them.)

Putting a baby to sleep and then to my desktop to check it out in the planner and start a new thread.

Funky - The wall between the kitchen and laundry is structural and likely cannot can't be altered to create access to the back corner cabinet, but that's otherwise a great solution. I think the hang up with putting the range on that wall is that it only allows for about 12 inches of counter to the right of the range at a potentially high traffic area from backyard/garage for 4 little kids.

Isn't it 80" from wall to door? If the corner cabinet for the Ikea kitchen isn't used but a blind corner instead, that should leave 24" for counter, 3" or so for fill to allow the oven door to open without bonking cabinet handles, and 30" for range which equals 57". Which should leave 23" for a cabinet to the right of the range which should be ample for safety. A 21" cabinet with a couple of inches of filler and it's a done deal.

A 24" wide alteration for drawers in the laundry would be a very minimal header and wouldn't cost much. However, the loss of that space and drawers in the laundry room wouldn't be a huge loss in the scheme of things so if that wall is done and they don't want to spend it to allow for the drawers, that would make sense to me.

I think the whole issue about a framed in pantry vs. Ikea pantry cabinets is becoming more complicated than it needs to be. We have added closets like this several times. It does NOT require any changes to the load-bearing wall and it does NOT require cutting into the studs.

OK, here's your kitchen below with the Ikea pantry cabinets. Pretend those aren't there. You already have the yellow walls. You simply need to add the pink walls. The blue lines signify the doors. Yeah, barn doors are popular now but I would go with sliders like used on bedroom closet doors. Cheaper and not as in the way as barn doors.

Not counting the doors and shelving, the wood to frame this is probably about $50 max. If your crew hasn't yet finished the walls with sheetrock, they can do these at the same time. Very minimal extra labor and materials. Then when your walls are finished, again, very minimal extra expense. Shelving is cheap. For budget reasons, you could start with plywood shelves now and upgrade later if you need to keep costs as low as possible for the time being.

The cheapest 15" wide Ikea cabinet listed on their high cabinets page is $327. Most are in the $450-600 range. For the length you want as pantries, this could easily cost your $1500 or so. You could do this entire wall for $327 if you frame it in and add your own shelves unless you go with a super-fancy interior shelving system.

I know I'm very late to this discussion, and I missed the reason the sink can't move. If it's because you don't want to redo the drain and plumbing lines that run to it, we built and leveled the toe kick area for our ikea cabinets out of cheap 2x lumber, and the plumbers were able to run the drain and supply lines from the original place for our new sink entirely inside the toe kick raised area (see photo below). I think if you could do the peninsula with a sink in it, it would open up a lot of good possibilities for you.

If you're asking me about cutting into studs--I don't know why you would need to, and it wasn't what I was suggesting. Unless you mean cutting out noggins which were added for stability or to attach cabs, and maybe you need those in CA earthquake country? I didn't see any in that wall in your blog pics.

ETA mathteacher, that is so cool! I'm going to keep that solution in mind for the future. Thank you!

mathteachr - I'm curious to see where you landed regarding your floor plan. I remember your house is neat and your layout was a really fun mental exercise. Please post an update if you have time.

Okay, new thread begun.

Sure thing benjes. It's all tarped up right now for painting, but I'll do some pics and a mid construction update this weekend.

Posting new thread in case others have a hard time finding it, too.

Ikea Kitchen Critique Take 2