Yes, the covered grass can (not always) grow through topdressing (soil cover). Different species of grass (even different cultivars of the same species) have different color, blade size and growth rates. It makes for a more pleasing appearance if an entire lawn has the same traits.

Where do you live (nearby city)?

Akron, Ohio.

Should I just kill all of the grass, rake it? then replant?

I would. KBG will do very well in Akron, but so will the other cool season grasses. The advantage to KBG (besides it's attractive appearance) is it self repairs and it can go dormant and recover during summer drought. On the other hand fescue and rye will need less water to get started but they require over seeding as they can't self repair and they have much shorter drought dormancy survival. I know that if you are in the Akron sewer district, your water prices are astronomical and it is a pain to get the "water use only" exception.

You shouldn't try seeding until the last week of August-first week of September. Beginning early August you can start apply glyphosate to kill off any existing grass and weed. Folks here are more than happy to give you detailed advice on the best practices for this endeavor if you are interested.

I think you'll be very pleased with that seed.

Do Not Till. You won't be happy with the results, the soil will end up bumpy (there are other considerations as well, all of which say not to till).

Kill the lawn in late July, then repeat on any spots that didn't die or weeds that sprouted about a week later. Use your mower to scalp the lawn down as short as you can manage (and bag the dead stuff), but don't worry about the dead short stuff that remains. It'll rot away, and it actually helps protect the seed a little bit.

Fill any low spots with soil since this is a great opportunity to do it. Use soil, not compost or peat moss, as peat and compost will rot away.

Seed when temperatures just start to drop off their summer highs to about six weeks before your first frost date. For you, call it August 15 - September 10 or so, and I'd try for the earlier part of that range, August 15 - September 1. Bluegrass takes ages to develop, while the fescue and rye will pop up very quickly. However, sixty percent of that seed is bluegrass.

Plan on watering for the seed bed for a solid month. Bluegrass does take that long, whereas the fescue and rye will be up in a week to ten days in warmer weather.

When watering, two or three light waterings a day are better than one heavy one. Then, after a month or so, back off slowly. Go to 1 or 2 moderate waterings per day for 2 weeks, then 1 watering per day for 2 weeks, then 1 every other day for 2 weeks, and so on.

Plan on watering the first summer, the lawn won't be fully established until it's about a year old.

And be careful to feed the new lawn! Like human children, grass children eat far more than adults, and more often. A light feeding every 2 weeks the first fall isn't a bad idea, then skip spring and feed normally on Memorial Day.

No, don't till it. The landscaper/grader left it perfect. If you rototill you'll hate yourself for about 3 years as the surface settles and becomes bumpier and bumpier.

Spray with RoundUp once to kill all the living stuff. Then water it lightly every day for a week to sprout all the weed seeds you have sitting on top. After a week of that, spot spray RoundUp again on the new weeds/grasses that came up. Theoretically you can seed then, but I would want to wait 3 days to let the RoundUp "evaporate." In Akron I would probably start spraying about Labor Day.

When you seed you should not need to top dress over top of the seed. All it needs is to be rolled down to make good contact with the soil. You can rent a water fillable roller for that job. The right amount of water is enough to press the soil down so you cannot see your foot prints when you walk on it behind the roller. If you had a smaller area you could simply walk on the new seed to press it in. Mother Nature uses livestock hooves to press (or even stampede) the soil down.

I see Morph and I were writing at the same time. Nice to see when were in agreement. I defer to morph for timing. I left Ohio in 81, so my memory of the seasons is fading. If you have any fear of frequent feeding, you can use organic fertilizer with no fear at all. Morph likes Milorganite and/or soybean meal. I use corn meal and alfalfa pellets (rabbit chow). Some of this preference is based on availability at our local feed stores. Today's modern organic fertilizers are largely composed of ground grains. We just get them 'wholesale' at the feed store in brown bags. The application rate if 15-20 pounds per 1,000 square feet depending on what you're using.

Thanks for all of the information. I am really glad I decided to post. I now have a much better idea of what to do.

Last question - as you can see in the photo my backyard is heavily wooded. I am having that graded as well. Will the seed I plan on using in the front do okay in the back even though it is shady?

How much sun does the back get?

Bluegrass will tolerate 4 hours of direct (not dappled and not near sunrise/sunset) sun per day, but it isn't exactly happy about it. Density will be lower, color poorer, and so on. Six hours per day will make it quite happy, and more than that is just icing on the cake.

Fescue is a little more tolerant of 4, but even so, six is better.

If it's really shady, red fescue is the best choice as it does tolerate 4 hours of sun very, very well, and will even work with less.

The area under trees can be quite dry, even a fair distance outside the drip zone as trees consume enormous amounts of water per day. Directly under trees, mulching and installing drought tolerant shade plants is a better idea--and even those don't do fantastically well unless you water.

A low-maintenance shade garden can be quite nice under the trees, increases plant diversity, and attracts pollinators and little critters that like them.

The exception there is some ornamental trees that are smaller, more open, or very constrained conical or flame shapes. Grass does fairly well near them. None of your trees fir that particular classification.

Oh, and what David said. Organics are great for bringing in a new lawn gently and very strongly. I was alternating between Milorganite and soybean meal every 2 weeks through the first fall, and by the end of October my lawn looked like it was in its second year. Just 8 to 10 pounds per thousand square feet twice a month really kick-starts the lawn without any worry about burning it.

Just Milo would be fine if that's what you can get, however!

I also had another thought. Looking at the grass on the right-hand side of your photo, I might suggest a soil test through Logan Labs. We can make some adjustments on a new seed bed, and defer some others to spring. It looks like the old lawn didn't really flourish, so that would imply that there's a resource shortage.

Which direction does your home face and, yes, how many hours of sun a day does the back yard area get? I'll get back with some suggestions later.

How close to Hartville/Uniontown are you?

The old yard actually was pretty nice accept for the weed, up by where you are talking there used to be landscaping which was ripped out over a year ago and nothing was ever planted in its place. So its basically just weeds. I might as well get the soil tested though. It cant hurt.

Where would one look for soybean meal?

Should I use peat moss to cover the seeds or is that unnecessary?

House is facing west. The northern half of the back yard gets a fair amount of sun, the southern half does not get much at all (right now that part of yard is basically moss). You can see the very large oak tree that in the top picture. I am not far from heartville, less than 25 minutes.

Facing West. I was guessing South or East. That's a surprise as the picture (taken late-afternoon, then?) shows the South side of the home in complete shade. Evidently a result of the trees? If that is the case going into the back, you're going to have little success in growing grass.

Those are very good KBG cultivars. I can't say anything about the rye and fescue as I'm not familiar with them but I'm sure they've been selected as compatible with the compacts. Seed Super store is very reputable ( I purchased from them once), but extremely expensive. That is Gold tag seed: 0% weed and 0% other crop. You'll need about 3-4 pounds of seed per 1000 sq ft. (I forgot to ask how many sq ft of lawn you have.) SSs recommends 4# for that mixture. Fortunately, SSs 's prices get lower in bulk purchases: about $6 per # for a 25# bag. Are you married to that seed mixture? If not, I can refer you to a place in Hartville/Uniontown (reason I asked about how close you were) where you can get Gold tag midnight for 3.50/lb. in any quantity (no price break for bulk.) They also have KBG blends and mixtures at comparable prices but not all are Gold. They also carry just about everything else, including professional Milorganite. I have no interest in this business nor are they relatives or social friends. They are just a great resource. I live in Northern Stark County btw.

My advice is slightly different than what you've gotten thus far. I would plant the last week of August or first week of September. Even then, you're likely to be doing a lot of watering as no matter when you plant you need to be able to keep the soil MOIST for 3-5 weeks. This will mean light watering 3 or more times a day. August, even the first couple weeks of September, can be very hot and dry here. It all depends on the weather though.

Secondly, I recommend employing a slit seeder for anything other than fescue. Germination rates for KBG are dramatically increased over other methods and any fescue or rye seed that would be damaged would be outweighed by the final results.

Third, a thin topdressing with peat moss will greatly help with seed/soil water retention and seed erosion during the germination period. Plus, it's color change is a great indicator of when water is needed. This is less advantageous if slit seeding, but still useful. Topdressing is hard, dirty work. It takes one 3.7 cubic ft bag to do 500-700 sq ft. At $10 to $12 dollars a bag, that can add up, but Ive found the effort and expense to be worth the final result.

Last, organic fertilizer has it's place, but other than Milorganite, I recommend the use of synthetics when establishing a lawn. Synthetics will provide the needed NP and K in a readily available form to the hungry seedlings. Use a Starter fertilizer at seeding. then you can apply half feedings of Starter or Milorganite every two to three weeks after 50+% germination. I've found that the new turf benefits from a continuation of half feedings every 3 weeks starting mid-April of the following Spring until June 1. Have a fungicide like Immunox on hand just in case, but I've never had more than a slight case of rust. That first year after establishment, you need to see that the lawn gets plenty of water to avoid any signs of stress. Towards the end of the first full summer, you can begin practicing deep and infrequent.

>>Last, organic fertilizer has it's place, but other than Milorganite, I recommend the use of synthetics when establishing a lawn. Synthetics will provide the needed NP and K in a readily available form to the hungry seedlings.

Whereas I completely and very strongly disagree; synthetics are far more likely to damage young and extremely delicate root systems than organics are...

>>Use a Starter fertilizer at seeding. then you can apply half feedings of Starter or Milorganite every two to three weeks after 50+% germination.

...but starter at seeding would be fine as the nitrogen will be long gone before seed sprouting. Whether you need the starter or not depends on your phosphorus levels in the soil (my soil, for instance, wouldn't require it). There's very little harm in adding it even if you don't need it, as long as it's only done once.

>>where you can get Gold tag midnight for 3.50/lb. in any quantity (no price break for bulk.) They also have KBG blends and mixtures at comparable prices but not all are Gold.

A blend would be great, but I'd caution against using only a single cultivar of a single species. That's called a monostand, and it's incredibly susceptible to disease or a change in conditions. It can be done, but it's far more of a challenge than the average homeowner would want.

Any existing blend they have they should have already balanced by family, so those should be fine. So even a pure Kentucky bluegrass lawn (technically a monoculture, but not a monostand) will do very well as it'll have various families of grasses in it, chosen for complimentary habits and resistance to diseases.

>>>

>>Last, organic fertilizer has it's place, but other than
Milorganite, I recommend the use of synthetics when establishing a lawn.
Synthetics will provide the needed NP and K in a readily available form
to the hungry seedlings.

Whereas I completely and very strongly disagree; synthetics are far
more likely to damage young and extremely delicate root systems than
organics are...

>>Use a Starter fertilizer at seeding. then you can apply half
feedings of Starter or Milorganite every two to three weeks after 50+%
germination.

...but starter at seeding would be fine as the nitrogen will be long
gone before seed sprouting. Whether you need the starter or not depends
on your phosphorus levels in the soil (my soil, for instance, wouldn't
require it). There's very little harm in adding it even if you don't
need it, as long as it's only done once.

I do thank you for bringing a portion of my answer to my attention:

>>Use a Starter fertilizer at seeding. then you can apply half
feedings of Starter or Milorganite every two to three weeks after 50+%
germination.

I meant to say, but did not do so clearly, that I recommend 1/2 feedings every two to three weeks AFTER 2 to 3 weeks have passed since 50+% germination has occurred (or about the time you begin to consider the first mow or delicate walking on the turf). I should have also specified that there should be only two to three of these applications that Fall.

Other than Milo, no organic fertilizer supplies N without a prolonged and unpredictable period of microbial processing. I've seen some people advise applying Starter at the first sign of germination, I agree that that is NOT the time to be adding N due to the immature roots. Very few organic products provide any significant amount of P or K, timely or not. We will disagree an the degree of harm to the plant or soil upon the addition of P and K, in the amounts I've recommended, on the occasion it is applied to an already perfectly balance soil.

The midnight was given for price and quality comparison, not as a recommendation. However, although my turf is not a midnight monostand (it was planted as 50% midnight with 16.6% of three other KBG cultivars and has been overseeded every year for 5 years with pure midnight) my mostly (not "mostly dead") midnight lawn has been very easy to care for. I would suggest, that with the new cultivars (even slightly older ones like midnight) the problems that were once so indicative of monostands are not much of a concern. Nothing wrong with belt and suspenders, so a professional blend (for similar color, blade and growth rate but having divergent disease susceptibility/immunity) couldn't hurt.

>>Other than Milo, no organic fertilizer supplies N without a prolonged and unpredictable period of microbial processing.

During seeding periods, water will not be short--the usual limiter of microbes. Temperatures will also, by necessity, have to be over fifty for the seed to germinate, which is perfect for organic decay as well.

Most considerations for organic slowdowns won't apply in this case, including lack of microbes. The watering will see to it that reproduction is very fast and very, very energetic.

>>Very few organic products provide any significant amount of P or K, timely or not.

Depends. Alfalfa is relatively balanced, Milo has significant P, and corn is reasonably balanced with a tilt toward nitrogen. I actually used soybean meal as my P and K levels were just fine--slightly high in fact.

>>We will disagree an the degree of harm to the plant or soil upon the addition of P and K, in the amounts I've recommended, on the occasion it is applied to an already perfectly balance soil.

We may, but application of P to a known-good soil is illegal in many states. For excellent reason, we'd rather not lose any more lakes and streams to anoxia caused by eutrophication.

Since the risk of particulate soil erosion is far greater on a clear field, seeding time is exactly when you don't want to be adding excessive P.

K is far closer to harmless and uncontrolled as it's already so common in the environment--and in waterways--that it isn't the limiting resource to algae's reproduction. It isn't considered a water pollutant.

It's also less likely to dominate in the soil profile as K can be dispelled by both Mg and Ca. Still, I find it detrimental to pay for a resource I don't need and that will simply end up being dispelled later.

>> I would suggest, that with the new cultivars (even slightly older ones like midnight) the problems that were once so indicative of monostands are not much of a concern.

Less so than in the past, but it's unwise to recommend a monostand to a more-casual homeowner. Those are more for hobbyists as problems, when they start, will spread far more easily than through a more diverse micro-ecosystem.

Vdeloren: It's roughly the same reason I don't plant all zinnia, even though I could handle the issues. Every plant would be surrounded by three to six others that can be infected by any disease that said plant has. By putting dahlia and salvia and whatnot, it provides a kind of fire break against diseases and insect invasions, enough of one for me to jump into action. Worst case, I'll lose a patch of garden.

That's why we recommend mixing cultivars from different families--and why even I'm a fan of the old-fashioned tri-mix (KBG, fescue, rye) lawn. Problems are less likely to spread explosively, and even if they do, they're less likely to take out more than one third of the plants in your lawn, leaving the other species untouched (or at least alive).

Again thank you all for the information. Yardtractor what is the name of the place in hartville?

Vdeloren: If you read my post as recommending a monostand of Midnight, it was not intended to be, although a midnight monostand wouldn't/isn't the sentence of imminent doom it is made out to be. As I said it's a good belt and suspender decision to go with a mix, or at least a blend, especially if there is any chance of you an organic zealot.

>>> Depends. Alfalfa is relatively balanced, Milo has significant P, and corn is reasonably balanced with a tilt toward nitrogen.

I specifically said SIGNIFICANT as in "available in any useful amount" to a seedling/juvenile plant- i.e. before the turf has gotten so old that it is ready to seed. The reason I cut an exception for Milorganite is that Milo contains 40% fast release urea that does not need weeks of rotting for that to become available. There is a reason that it takes 20 pounds of an organic material to provide a pound of N to a plant--e v e n t u a l l y.

I am old enough to know it's futile to have a discussion of a difference of opinions with someone who ignores the issues as presented and brings in a tangential discussion to win the day.

Right brain - left brain debates--no thanks:

I'm no fan of pollution, but as long as that's the horn you want to hang your hat on, Where do you think the vast, vast majority of the phosphorous pollution originates? Hint: it's not the homeowner using a Starter fertilizer for a few weeks while establishing a lawn (better to get'er done the first time than to fail over and over) who is pumping thousands of tons of P into our waterways. Yeppers, it's farms. Where do you think all of those organic crops you use for NPK come from? So, now I guess I win the discussion about how little harm the amounts of NPK I recommended might do to the plant or the soil vs its benefit in establishing the lawn. :p

Let's just agree to disagree. Different perspectives. Make it the reader's option.

>>I specifically said SIGNIFICANT as in "available in any useful amount" to a seedling/juvenile plant- i.e. before the turf has gotten so old that it is ready to seed. The reason I cut an exception for Milorganite is that Milo contains 40% fast release urea that does not need weeks of rotting for that to become available. There is a reason that it takes 20 pounds of an organic material to provide a pound of N to a plant--e v e n t u a l l y.

This is completely and utterly incorrect.

Initial release is within 3 weeks. The reason the quantity required is as high as it is, is due to the fact that the nitrogen density in protein isn't particularly high, and the density of protein in most items isn't particularly high--the highest being corn gluten meal, followed by an essential tie between soybean meal and cottonseed meal.

Eleven pounds per thousand of CGM, or 15 pounds per thousand of either cottonseed meal or soybean meal, is sufficient to supply 1 metered pound of N to the lawn.

Since the seed contains all the resources required for the first month, organics applied at the time of seeding will be in full swing release at the time the radicle has developed into a young root.

Not to mention that young plants are very demanding of a constant source of resources, but not particularly demanding of a large amount of resources at any one time, making organics an extremely good choice as they never feature the see-saw effect of applied synthetic nitrogen.

So if you're saying my lawn did not come in and develop quite strongly using only organics, please feel free. But that would also be wrong as it did quite beautifully. QED, organics can be used--extremely effectively--to bring a new lawn. By October of the first year, the turf was very well-established.

>>I am old enough to know it's futile to have a discussion of a difference of opinions with someone who ignores the issues as presented and brings in a tangential discussion to win the day.

>>I'm no fan of pollution, but as long as that's the horn you want to hang your hat on, Where do you think the vast, vast majority of the phosphorous pollution originates? Hint: it's not the homeowner using a Starter fertilizer for a few weeks while establishing a lawn (better to get'er done the first time than to fail over and over) who is pumping thousands of tons of P into our waterways. Yeppers, it's farms

Pot, kettle, tangential argument. A minor word of advice: it's generally extremely unwise to accuse somebody of doing something that you then immediately (and quite transparently) turn around and do yourself. Expect to be called on it.

By that argument, there's no sense controlling any one particular source of pollution because we can't control all of them. We already know it's difficult as control of non-point-source emissions are always difficult.

It does not alter the fact that application of P to a soil already containing sufficient P is illegal.

So yes, the continued conversation is pointless. In this state, you'd be breaking the law (and a law that actually makes extremely good sense), whereas following it helps preserve waterways in some small manner. I'll take it. Good day, sir, and bless your little heart.

Morph, I have always deferred to your ability to read soil tests, but it appears that I have given you way more credit than you deserve.

>>>Pot, kettle, tangential argument. A minor word of advice: it's
generally extremely unwise to accuse somebody of doing something that
you then immediately (and quite transparently) turn around and do
yourself. Expect to be called on it.

Seriously, are you so right brained that you can't identify sarcasm and parody? Of course it is pot and kettle--that was the point. I even prefaced it (emphasis below) to help you recognize it:

"I am old enough to know it's futile to have a discussion of a
difference of opinions with someone who ignores the issues as presented
and brings in a tangential discussion to win the day.

(HERE was the hint!!! --->>>>>) Right brain - left brain debates--no thanks:"

As I grow older I try to avoid mixing fact and voodoo and pass it off as logic. As my time shortens, I have also decided to avoid those who do.

Vdeloren, no personal offense intended, but i decline to advise you any more. morpeouspa and dchall shall be your mentors.

I'll take a break and spend more time with my great grandchildren.

I said good day, sir. We are no longer speaking as I refuse to play any more games with you while you attempt to cover clear ignorance without any presentation of actual fact. Enjoy your great-grandchildren.

Speaking of ignorance, I'm not aware of the law to which you refer:

>>>It does not alter the fact that application of P to a soil already containing sufficient P is illegal.

As an old dumb retired rural attorney, I'm not aware of that ORC. Could you edify with a cite referencing that statute? Facts is facts son.

You have a good day too. Have a factual one for a change of pace while you're at it.

http://www.cga.ct.gov/2012/rpt/2012-R-0076.htm

Sigh. There's a nice, basic overview that I located in two seconds, including links to the statues.

>>As an old dumb retired rural attorney,

Too easy.

Enjoy that "break."

Gentle sir, that is not a cite to a statute and definitely not one to the Ohio Revise Code. It's a "summary."

>>>At
least 11 states ban phosphorus fertilizer use or sale: Illinois, Maine,
Maryland, Michigan, Minnesota, New Jersey, New York, Vermont, Virginia,
Washington, and Wisconsin. In
general, these states prohibit phosphorus fertilizer application unless
it is for (1) curing a lack of necessary phosphorus, (2) establishing
new turf, or (3) repairing turf.

Evidently, you see Ohio in there, I don't. Even those states that do ban it make exceptions ( see emphasis).

Sir, I don;t mean to belittle you, My point is that on an internet site we all have our opinions, The value of our opinions should be weighed based on the experience, facts and logic as presented by the poster for the judgment of the reader.

On the other hand, to say "Good Day" might be your best recourse in a debate with me if that is what you feel is in your best interest.

I'm not going to try and moderate what is a very active digression from the original issue, but I can try to clarify some of the statements as I understand them. Note: I'm not necessarily contributing to the OP's question, either. I just want the issues to be understandable with as much as we know.

yardtractor said, Other than Milo, no organic fertilizer supplies N without a prolonged and unpredictable period of microbial processing.

Prolonged and unpredictable...Hence the term, slow release. I prefer delayed release because slow release implies that there is a release beginning when the product is applied. I believe for the grain type organic fertilizers it is more like no release at all for 2 weeks and then a build up to the point where the grass looks much better by the 3 week point. Then as more of the product is decomposed by the microbes, nutrients are delivered to the plant by known biological communication systems as the plant needs it for months down the road. And that is my opinion about both prolonged and unpredictable nature of organic fertilizer. Prolonged, yes. Unpredictable, not really. Now if the temperatures are below 50 degrees, that 3 weeks will be longer, so maybe that is what yardtractor was referring to. But for the grass growing season 3 weeks is a pretty solid prediction for "release" of grain type organics.

Using a single cultivar of a plant can be a little more risky in terms of susceptibility to disease or other issues. If you have a blend of KBG cultivars and a disease comes in and wipes out all of one cultivar, then you have the remaining cultivars to fill in for you. That's what they're talking about.

yardtractor also said, and I don't mean to sound like I'm picking on you, The reason I cut an exception for Milorganite is that Milo contains 40%
fast release urea that does not need weeks of rotting for that to become
available.

My understanding is that milo is made from stage 2 or class 2 biosolid waste with a dash of iron chloride and iron sulfate. There is no urea in Milorganite - at least not the homeowner variety in the 30-pound bag. That seems to be confirmed by the MSDS for the product. If it has any faster release effect than the grain type organic fertilizers, that speed would be due to the predigestion of the material to bring it up to the class 2 biosolid stage.

With reference to the use or possible repeated use of starter fertilizer (high P content), Morpheus mentioned that overuse of heavy P fertilizer products was illegal in several states - or words to that effect. Yardtractor went into retired attorney mode asking for details and eventually I could see him asking for landmark court decisions. Who cares? The problem is we are a homeowner forum with a vast and deep knowledge of lots of information, but we don't know everything. Whether it is legal or not in YOUR state, what we do know is the overuse of P historically has turned even huge bodies of water into slimy green masses of floating goo and fish carcasses. Those of you living on Lake Erie should be plenty familiar with the effect of washing too much P down stream. I believe morpheus is trying to save the OP some hassle, time, and money by keeping to an organic approach that has proved to work. Sure there are chemical approaches that work, but the owner too often ends up worrying about picking the right brand, getting the right NPK, using too much, using too little, thunderstorms washing it away, and forgetting to water it in. With grain based organics you can eliminate those worries. Legality of fertilizer use is such a side issue. If the OP has a soil test showing low P in the soil, morph would be the first to recommend balancing it with starter fertilizer. Without such a soil test, it is not prudent to pile it on.