I like the rendition on the right. I don't think you should have your range on that walk thru point.

Also, you might want your frig closer to the table?

It is difficult to give you the best advice without seeing your floorplan for this entire floor. Could you post that? Even something hand drawn with measurements is fine. You also might want to read "New to Kitchens? Read here first" which is an excellent primer on kitchen planning that is usually on the first or second page here in the Kitchens forum (it bounces around).

What is the door in the lower-right corner going to?

Is that a dining room table at the top? Is your living room to the left (out of sight)?

Your plan looks fine. Your range should be on an outside wall for easier venting but it is possible to vent from an interior wall. Quite often, this reduces the efficiency and operation of your hood though so an outside wall (or very close to an outside wall) is preferred. So your plan on the left makes better sense for venting.

Your DW needs to be outside of your prep area. If your only sink ends up being on the island, it should be on the left of the sink.

Oh, aisles should be at least 42" if someone is working in the kitchen solo, and at least 48" for multiple cooks. Since you plan to have children, you need to go with at least 48" if you want them to be able to help in the kitchen. Also, if planning children, I recommend a separate sink for clean-up/DW duties so they can help with that while staying out of the prep/cook space.

We need more dimensions to help you better. I would do some tweaking on your current layout but I'm having problems posting photos for some reason. I'll check back later and I'm sure others more talented than me will pop in and help as well.

Your property sounds lovely.

Oh, have you posted your entire plan on the Building a Home forum? If it's a smaller home, like 2000 sq ft and less (or thereabouts), you might also want to post your plan on the Small Home forum. Lots of good advice is given in both of those forums.

Probably, I should know more about entire space, but in this kitchen, something is leading me to feel you should put fridge and sink on lower wall and range on side outside wall.This will free up the island and I would square it out also.

Thanks, I will post the entire floor shortly. I have ready the layout thread and posted the info it mentioned but i agree more dims will help everyone see. It's not a smaller home and I haven't focused enough on specifics of the rest to post in the building a home forum, but I am active over there in the meantime.

Well - I don't see an edit button, here is the kitchen with more dims including the entire first floor, nothing is set in stone so disregard the master area, I just threw it in there. I left the

Also included inspiration for dining booth, it will be the only dining area and we will just build it to fit what space is left in that corner.

Thank you all for the info so far!

For the kitchen-specific measurements, something like this is needed.

Read Me thread: New to Kitchens? Read Me First!

Kitchen Design FAQs that may help (you've included some of the requested information already, but there is more):

How do I ask for Layout Help and what information should I include?

Kitchen work zones, what are they?

Aisle widths, walkways, seating overhangs, work and landing space, and others

How do I plan for storage? Types of Storage? What to Store Where?

Could the side entry door be moved out of the kitchen area, and placed between the counter and the breakfast bench? Or somehow reworking the entrance and laundry/pantry to avoid traffic through the kitchen.

I agree with houserookie about not having the traffic through the kitchen. Anytime you can avoid that, you have a better working space, imho. I played around with things a bit but it's late and this isn't really a very good idea. I don't like the increased distance to get into the house and to the pantry to unload. I do like that you walk through the mudroom which should make it more likely to be used and I like that the range is not in a traffic corridor and that the fridge is closer to dining area for easier access. It still needs improvement though, that's for sure. Maybe it will help spur someone else's imagination to make those improvements.

"...I don't see an edit button..."

Unfortunately, with the Houzz merger we lost the ability to edit a post after about an hour or two. I think the ability to edit the original post (OP) in a thread expires after an hour and subsequent posts after a couple of hours (I haven't tested it yet for the actual times.)

[Working on a layout - may take me a while though as I'm multi-tasking b/w it and my family!]

OK, here's my idea.

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So what were the major changes?

• Moved the sink to the right wall. You didn't show a window, but it appears to be an exterior wall, so I added a 42" wide window that's counter-height. If you don't mind a sink not centered on the window, I would put in at last a 48" window and line up the sink with the left end of the window. (This is what I would prefer - a bigger window with the sink aligned with the left edge of the window.) If there is a reason there's no window, then see the third picture below - without the window. Instead, it has a 12" deep plate rack for decoratively storing your dinner plates.

• Moved the Pantry door to the left end of the pantry. This keeps the Pantry door in the Kitchen for ease of access. The door is a standard 32" door.

• The move of the Pantry door protects the main working parts of the Kitchen from through-traffic. Even if people enter via the Mudroom and through the Pantry into the Kitchen, they will not pass through the main part of the Kitchen.

• Changed your full-corner banquette to a partial - a bench against the wall with the rest of the seats as chairs. This gives you more flexibility as well increases accessibility of the seats against the wall. I recommend making the bench free-standing so you can move it as needed. I would still make it a booth-type bench (with a back), but I would not attach it permanently to the wall. See the third picture down.

• Divided the Mudroom/Laundry Room into two separate rooms. I strongly discourage you from putting your dirty laundry on public display. I find it distasteful to enter someone's home via the Laundry Room - even good friends' or other family members' homes. Dirty (or even clean) laundry should be private!

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Further analysis...

• With the sink on the right wall, you now have good separation of zones and very little, if any, zone-crossing. The Cleanup Zone is on the sink wall w/the cleanup sink and DW; the Prep Zones (2 of them) are in island and on the counter b/w the cleanup sink and the range. Prep Zones need water and both locations have easy access to water. Because of the two sinks, both Prep Zones will be separated so two cooks won't interfere with each other during prepping. The Cooking Zone is on the "bottom" wall and close to both prep zones.

• The island is large enough to have a good-sized prep sink and still have plenty of prep space to the left - 60" - as well as provide a nice big surface for science fair projects, baking projects, crafts, homework, and as a staging area for food for the Dining area or for parties. When the food is prepared or done cooking and ready to serve, simply place in on the island from Prep and/or Cooking Zones and give it shove to the other side of the island and it's now placed where needed from the Dining area of for guests during a party.

• The trash pullout in the Prep Zone (where it's used the most) and near the Cooking and Cleanup Zones.

• The refrigerator and MW drawer are on the perimeter and are easily accessed from both the Prep & Cooking Zones as well as from those outside the Kitchen (snackers) - without cooks and non-cooks getting in each other's way.

• The refrigerator is also placed such that it's easily accessed from the Family Room and Dining area without having to go through the Prep & Cooking Zones. There may be some traffic from the Dining area, but that will most likely occur during meals when no one is working in the Kitchen.

• The MW drawer is near the refrigerator where most food to be MW'd comes from and near a water source (prep sink) because many MW'd foods need water added

• The sink wall is 4.5" deeper than normal - it has 30" deep counters. This gives you plenty of room for deeper uppers (they're 15" deep), deeper base cabs (they're 27" deep - assuming your cabinet line has them and they fit your budget), and extra room behind the sink. The extra room allows you to have room for any faucet and minimizes window splashing. (You often have issues with certain faucets when you have standard depth counters with a raised window - the sill gets in the way of the faucet handle and, sometimes, the rotating faucet stem & head.) Note: If you cannot get or afford 27" deep base cabinets, then pull the cabinets out from the wall 4.5". I strongly recommend 15" deep uppers, though - even if it's a stretch. It's amazing how much extra storage space those extra 3" provide! E.g, it's usually another row of glasses; some dinner plates are 12" deep and will not fit in 12" deep cabs but they will fit easily in 15" deep cabs. (Keep in mind that cabinet depth is the exterior dimension - including the back wall and the face frame. So, 12" deep cabinets are really only 10.5" deep on the inside.)

• Dish storage is near the DW and cleanup sink and near the Dining area. This puts the dishes right where they're needed - when putting them away while unloading the DW and when setting the table. No need to cross into the Prep and Cooking Zones! As your family grows, the latter is going to become very important!

• Corner - note that the corner has a cabinet turned toward the back and into the Mudroom. It opens into the Mudroom - but the wall continues above it so you can mount upper cabinets in the Kitchen on that wall. The cabinet is 33" wide x 27" deep with 2" to 3" of filler b/w the right wall and the cabinet (to allow the cabinet door to clear the exterior door & trim on the right). This cabinet also acts as filler for the cabinets in the Kitchen that are on the each side of the corner. You need at least 3" of filler on each side to allow drawers to clear the drawer face and handle on the other side of the

That's it for now - I hope I covered everything! Questions? Comments?

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With Window and focused on Kitchen:

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Zone Map:

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Without a window and full view of space:

FYI...if you have to choose b/w a large Mudroom/smallish Laundry Room vs the reverse - go with the larger Mudroom! A nice-sized Mudroom with things like cubbies (preferably one per child), a decent-sized closet (the Foyer closet is for guests), a Message/Command Center, and a bench will help immensely to keep your family organized and the outdoors & school items out of the other rooms!

One concern with the walk through pantry as the only way to get to the outside door is how the traffic will be in there. I keep imagining the cook is trying to get ingredients or put away stuff, while the kids and the dog are coming in and out. Kids trying to get out of the house with their sports gear, knocking half the stuff off the shelves. Dirty dog escapes from bath time in the utility room, and does a "get this off me" shake and gets mud on the items in the pantry... Maybe I'm the only one who thinks about those possibilities.... ;p but they could happen, right?

Good point. I think a doorway may need to be added from the Mudroom to the Hall on the other side.

In the plan I suggested, some of the mud room gear could be stored in the laundry room, and the Mud area with the bench would be for the every day stuff. Nice long bench with hooks and cubbies. Still easy access to the pantry.

Another important thing to determine mud room/area size, is Jkliveng's climate. You know, lots of winter stuff? Or Texas climate with the occasional jacket in the winter, no storage for boots needed kind of mud room.

Working on it now! I think it may be even better this way! We'll see.

OK - here it is. (The table area is not shown, but it hasn't changed.)

The work zones in the Kitchen remain the same.

The Powder Room has been reconfigured - yes it works, ours is 4'6" x 4'6" - the one I put in for you is slightly bigger.

Note the hall that now goes from the outside to the FR without going through the Kitchen. The Pantry is still directly off the Kitchen and the hall.

The family closet isn't just for coats - it can also hold sports equipment (cleats, batting helmets, shin pads, base/softball gloves, etc. (My kids were very involved in sports throughout their childhood and into their teens - soccer, base/softball, basketball, volleyball. So, I know what its like to have sports equipment cluttering up the house!)

The cubbies are a bench seat with hooks for jackets and backpacks as well as a drawer underneath and a shelf above. I don't know how large a family you plan, but I put in four! By making them separate cubbies instead of one long bench, each child will have their own space and will be responsible for their belongings. If you only have two or three children - then the adults get a cubby as well! :-)

The Message/Command Center is near the family entrance/exit. It has a place for keys, a calendar, charging station (phone, camera, etc.), mail organizer, answering machine (if you have one), etc. It's located so it's the first thing you see when you enter (and can drop the mail, keys, etc., here rather than in the Kitchen!), and the last thing you see when you leave the house (and can grab your keys, phone, purse, etc., as well as check the calendar on the way out.)

I think I like this much better than the previous two layouts!

One of my Mudroom inspiration photos:

SoonerMagic's Mudroom, more inspiration!

Now I think it's time to wait to see what jkliveng thinks of the ideas. S/he hasn't posted since Friday afternoon - but it has been a summer weekend and those are often busy!

Hopefully we haven't scared her (him?) away!

Looks like you put in a lot of work into this. Wow. I do like the convenience of having a second door to the pantry for when arriving with groceries, easy to get to the kitchen. But I wonder if people will also go through there instead of using the hallway to the living area. This is such a tricky entrance!

I am here! I just browsed through everything (at work ;)) and am re-reading slowly now.

To answer a few more questions: I am in central NC zone 7b so we have all seasons. I will have also a basement mudroom/storage area for out of season items to spill into. Much like kids/sports, my husband and I have our own season (hunting, gardening, etc) and I cannot have all of that lingering!

And of course, thank you all for the help, i will have more shortly!

I really like buehl's plan. Glad you weren't scared off, jkliveng.

I thought of a couple tweaks that might be worth considering:

I wasn't sure what was going on at the left end of the hall. I would want people to be go through there into the house if there is no reason for them to go through the pantry and into the kitchen. Maybe buehl intended that but I just got confused.

I would put the powder room door into that hall instead of the other side for privacy.

I like the two above-suggestions a lot but like this next one less so I'm just throwing it out there. I love the cubbies but the extra space not being used in that alcove bothers me a bit. Although I can certainly see if several people come into the home at the same time and stop at the cubbies to hang things up, maybe change out of dirty sports shoes/boots, and such that that space isn't wasted at all but will, rather, provide elbow room for doing those things. This is more congested and would probably mean having to reduce the cubbies to about 18" depth without the built-in seats but it would give you a bit more storage, if needed. I think buehl's rendition would be more attractive. I think the size of your family and how you think those cubbies will be used should determine how you use that cubbie alcove. Repeat: I don't think this is a better idea, just a different one.

Funkycamper, excellent idea about moving the bathroom door to the inside hallway. This may be the extra "encouragement" people would need to use that hallway instead of going through the pantry.

I am going to comment on each of these, but before I do, I just want to make sure we are all on the same page.

I might be missing the point of having a hallway from the back (side) door to the foyer. The side entrance will be our daily use entrance, the front door for guests or even casual family visitors. My image for the side entrance was unloading the car of groceries straight into the pantry, bringing the dog into the mudroom for a rinse, stripping off clothes directly into laundry. Sure - friends may enter here, but that's why there is a pocket door on the mudroom and swinging doors on the pantry. This funnels them into the kitchen, which with our open floor plan should be fine right?

No problem with family going into the kitchen area from the garage. The issue was the traffic of those family members through the work zones in the kitchen.

My idea was to keep your entrance to the kitchen, but minimize the crossing between the prep and cooking zones.

I'm not sure what everyone thought of it. But it could work for you with your own tweaking and adjustments.

Thanks - that makes sense, just needed it spelled out a little differently! Will be back-

Funneling people into the FR and toward the bedrooms is more functional than having them have to go around through the Kitchen. It makes more sense to direct the people to where they really need to go - and that's not the Kitchen most of the time. If you have to/need to get to the Kitchen, you can go through the Pantry. You could make the pantry "nicer" or even create a hall through the pantry area, but I think I prefer it open. As you said, guests will not be coming in the family entrance, they will be using the front door. Although, they will really be the "family & good friends" entrance and the guest entrance.

If you plan to rinse the dog off in the Mudroom, then you will need to add a shower pan and faucet. Or, were you planning to use the Laundry Room? You would still need a shower pan/faucet - unless you have one of those tiny dogs that can be picked up and put in the laundry tub - but would you want to do that if the dog is muddy?

Growing up in western NY I know all about the four seasons and the paraphernalia that comes for each season! I also know all about the clutter that comes with large families (one of six kids) and children - especially school-age children! Think a loaded backpack for each child, a jacket (or coat/boots/gloves/hat), bags for sports practices (with clothes, cleats, ankle braces, etc.). You need room for all of that (and more!) as you enter from the family entrance - as close as possible!

And, what about the stuff they don't put in their cubby (assuming you have cubbies)? Do you want your Kitchen to be the drop zone for everything? That's what will end up happening if your only entrance is through the Kitchen. Trust me, you do not want your children to go through the Kitchen first-thing! (So much experience speaking here!)

Just going down the list since it's easiest:

Houserookie - The side door can be moved forward or slightly back, otherwise no. The back end is sloping. On your plan, I do like the kitchen access being more on the side. I love that you were able to keep the pantry and mudroom large, and while I am not a huge fan of an L shaped island, it could be filled our to full rectangle if needed. That pantry is seriously deep, I wonder if i may cut it short and do a built in type laundry at the bottom. Need to be careful with windows here though. What I like most about your option is that you have created a longer mudroom that wasn't across the front. Thank you very much for your help so far, this gives me a lot to think about.

Funky - while I do like this entrance and it doesn't take away from my pantry and mudroom, it does cut the kitchen down drastically. I really like the entrance however, coming to the side of the kitchen. thank you for your help.

Buehl - Side windows are no problem. Once again I like the entry further into the kitchen, but I would not want a walk way through the pantry. The booth benches can be temporary, no problem there. The mudroom will have a door, so no worries on guests seeing any dirty laundry. This area will be critical and I need it as large as possible. Thank you for highlighting zones, it's much easier to picture that way. Love the island for entertaining, since its so close to family room. The extra room around the sink, never thought of it and now I realize my mother might have this. I love this and will keep it in mind for cab shopping. I am still trying to picture the corner cab that opens into the other size, do you have a pic of something similar? I love that spot for the fridge, no need to see dirty dishes if I just want a drink of water after dinner. Husband will get a good laugh when i tell him i might need two sinks. I love what you have done with the kitchen and appreciate it greatly.

Buehl 2 - The second layout with pantry/mudroom/laundry - I would hate to lose the storage space to a hall way into the foyer. I like the cubby corner, and could maybe turn the cubbies to be on the exterior wall, and have a tabletop drop off in front of it, depending on space. Part of this would be required due to windows. The family closet reminds me of a photo i will have to share tomorrow. I see your point about the kitchen being a drop zone, it's where i drop everything when I come in daily now and it's a terrible habit.

It's all a little odd to me - in my current home, everyone passes through the kitchen into my family room, mostly because i have a dog gate blocking them from walking straight into the family room. The difference is, i am in 1200 sq ft now and it may as well all be one room, also, no island. I was going to include a little rinse station if there is space, but yes, my JRT would fit in the sink and I won't lie and say he hasn't been in my kitchen sink now (was desperate).

The short version - Now I am wondering if there is a lovely buehl/houserookie mix that would bring an entrance further into the kitchen, with no hallway to the foyer, that allows for a decent drop off zone.

You guys have given me a lot to think about - I very much appreciate all the assistance, if you have any other ideas or input, it is welcome. Be back shortly with a new idea as well as inspiration photos. thanks again!

Inspiration photos for mudroom:

Laundry · More Info

Laundry Room · More Info

Laundry Room · More Info

Pantry inspiration you may recognize, the Pioneer Woman's pantry.

Just another option I toyed with. I have essentially used the cabinet/appliance placement from your kitchen plan, Buehl. The 2s and 3s are ft per drawer of cabinet, I need a better program for dims.

I have added an entry hallway, I imagine there being coat hooks along the right hand wall when you walk in. This will be good for everyday jackets. From there, you can enter to the left into the mudroom with a dirty dog or muddy boots. Maybe a bench or freezer in the back. Pantry up ahead on your left, and the small hall ends with a drop zone. A great calendar above it with dry erase board included? Key drop, mail drop, etc. Or enter into the kitchen.

Let me know your thoughts.

Pantry -

Shelves much deeper than 12" become black holes, things get lost very quickly (that's one reason why pantry cabinets are less than ideal pantry storage unless they're only about 18" wide with all the shelves attached to the door so they all pull out when you open it.) If you look at your inspiration picture, you will see the shelves are shallow.

Even the bottom area will be an issue - now you have to get on your hands & knees to get to items on the bottom. If you do this, at least put ROTS (roll out tray shelves) in the bottom so you don't have practically crawl inside to get to the items in the back.

In addition, to reach the top shelves, you can't get close to the top shelves to reach them. You have stand farther out b/c of the deeper bottom section and then reach over the deeper section and lean in to get to the items on the top shelves.

If you search GW for pantries, you will find that overwhelmingly people feel all shallow shelves work better. If you want some deeper cabinets, put them on one side, not both.

It will be farther to the pantry from the Kitchen.

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Family Entrance -

Regarding hanging coats on the wall shared with the Kitchen - the hallway isn't wide enough. You will be dodging coats (and boots in the winter) as you try to enter - and it will be worse if you're carrying bags of groceries. In addition, once the kids are in school, you will have backpacks hanging there - unless you plan to home-school. Even then, I think you'll find there just isn't enough room for all you plan to put in that hallway.

I've been there, so I'm trying to give you the advantage of foreknowledge for your house. I wish someone had told me all of this when we built - I would have done things much differently!

I also know from experience, that if the kids have to go into another room to drop things off, they are not likely to make the detour. If it's open and "in their face", they will be much more likely to use any cubbies, etc., you have setup.

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Kitchen -

I would not put cab #2 there. It pushes the refrigerator down and forces the range into the corner making it, at best, difficult to work at with more than one person in the Kitchen and, at worst, may cause issues with cabinets around the corner. You will need at least 3", maybe more, of filler so that drawers and doors on the ones side of the corner will clear the oven door and handles on the other side. (My SIL's cabinetmaker didn't understand this and now she has to open the oven door to open the top drawer around the corner and she cannot open the doors on the same cabinet more than about 45 degrees. It's also a tight squeeze when trying to work at the range.)

In addition, the island is no longer ideally situated as a Prep Center and people coming into the Kitchen from that doorway will be constantly getting in the way of anyone working at the island. Think about the traffic that goes through that doorway and how it will impact working in the Kitchen.

Dish Storage needs to be over or next to the DW, not on the other side of the sink - for two reasons.

(1) You don't want traffic to be coming into your Cooking Zone and Prep Zone (b/w the sink and range now since the island is no longer convenient) when setting the table or putting away dishes while someone else is prepping and cooking. (Think about having 2 or 3 or more prepping and cooking, someone else loading or unloading the DW, and yet another person setting the table - you don't want everyone fighting for floor space in one small section of the Kitchen.)

(2) It makes unloading the DW a bigger task if you have to walk to the other side of the Kitchen to put dishes away.

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Something to keep in mind is that you're used to being single or only two adults. Kitchen (and Mudroom) use and overall traffic/functionality will change drastically when you have children and they start walking! Plan now since you plan to start your family soon and plan to raise them in this home!

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Again, it's up to you, after all, it's your house! We can only advise you, now it's up to you to take our advice or leave it. At least you will be making an informed decision and know the pros & cons going in.

Good luck!

My experience - My house was always the hang-out house where the kids and their friends would be all summer, weekends, and many days after school if they weren't in a sport at that time. I have two kids but it was common to have 8-12 kids running around. I was so glad that they could either run in the front door and up the stairs to their bedrooms and the upstairs bathroom, or in the back door where they could get to the bathroom without having to go through my kitchen first. Unfortunately, my kitchen was a corridor kitchen in that they would often go through the kitchen to go from the front door to the backyard, or from the backyard to the stairs to go to their bedrooms. They didn't have to. They could go out the side gate and around but through the house was the shortest route so it was hard to get them to stop doing it. I loved the kids around, the hustle-and-bustle of it all, and the sounds of kids playing but I disliked them running through my kitchen.

I would do anything possible to design a home where it isn't necessary to go through the kitchen to get to the other parts of the house. Especially the bathrooms and bedrooms. So, sorry, no, I don't like your plan.

Of course, I like that you plan a mudroom, cubbies, a nice laundry room and a good sized pantry and that these will be easy to get to when coming in the house, unloading the groceries and sports gear, etc., especially in that they can strip down the muddy sports gear right there in the laundry room without tracking it all through the house. That's all great but I would want that alternate way to get into the house without going through the kitchen. You have a LOT of storage so I just don't see how that small loss of storage in your other entry will be much of a loss. I think you would gain more than you'll lose.

I'm so thrilled to now have a kitchen that is not a corridor kitchen. It's in a corner and there's no reason to be in it unless you're cooking or cleaning up yet it's also open to other parts of the house so I'm not closed off from the action. It's a good balance. So I think you should reconsider.

ETA: I was cross-posting with buehl and I agree with everything she said.

Just wanted to say, as a fellow JRT pack member, I get it. I read thru everything the best I could tonight. I noticed I was saying an "amen" to much of the advice. This stuck out to me....buehl/houserookie mix!

Anyways, I will try to look more closely later....

thank you all, i will revisit and be back again!