Just curious: You seem to be knowledgeable about shower construction. How did you find out there was no waterproofing used?

As far as the contractor's warranty - first it's only good for as long he's in business, and secondly it sounds like salesman talk, since it's not in writing, and there's no time limit. Try exercising that warranty after 5 years.

If he doesn't use waterproofing, then he's not doing a proper job. How much does it cost to put up 6 mil plastic? He's not a good guy, he built you an inferior product, and want's you to accept it.

If you have a spec / contract for the job, does it list how the shower was to be constructed?

All I can say is seal the grout regularly.

The way I see it, you can either rip it all out now or rip it all out later *if* there's a problem. If you can access the back side of the drywall from a closet, I would check it regularly for damp. And seal regularly.

Geofrey-I'm a lot more knowledgeable now than I was before this project. lol. In the future, I would absolutely insist on full waterproofing.

But when we began, I asked him about it--even offered to pay extra--and he assured me that it was unnecessary. He came highly recommended with good references, and he was actually arguing AGAINST my spending more $$$, so I went along. I think he is a good guy, maybe just not up to speed on the latest and greatest techniques. I share your concerns about what may happen if I have to go back to him in 5 years, though.

Bottom line appears to be that, while lack of waterproofing is not ideal, it is far from the catastrophe some on Houzz portray. Many, if not most, showers being installed today have no waterproofing and do not leak, seep, sweat, or otherwise break down. The key is to ensure that the pan is well-constructed and properly membraned (mine is), that the grout lines are tight and gapless, and that the corners are properly caulked. In other words, the workmanship has to be good. My understanding is that you are FAR more likely to develop a leak on the floor due to improper pan construction, waterproofing, or grading than you are to experience a leak or seepage on the walls.

As a test, I literally dumped a small bucket of water on a sheet of durrock to see what would happen. I came back an hour later and there was no evidence of any seepage or penetration. It's not an apples-to-apples comparison of course because it was exposed to air and the water could evaporate. But by the same token, the amount of water that is likely to get through the sealer, grout, and tile simply by running down the walls should be *minimal.*

@A Smith: " Many, if not most, showers being installed today have no waterproofing "

Where do you get this idea?

" and he was actually arguing AGAINST my spending more $$$" Spending more money? How much does a roll of 6 mil pol cost - $10? Another hour to tack it to the studs $50?

"I think he is a good guy, maybe just not up to speed on the latest and greatest techniques"

These are not the latest techniques - people have been doing this with tar paper (since the 1950's atleast). He may be a friendly guy - but not competent - in my book.

According to the TCNA - Tile Council of North America:

"If using cement board, should the waterproof membrane go on top of or behind the board?

For thin-set applications (TCNA Handbook detail SR614), you will see that a waterproof membrane can be installed on top of, or behind, the cement board. However, some manufacturers require that the waterproof membrane be used on the front and a vapor membrane on the back. This tends to vary according to the manufacturer."

Waterproofing pdf

@geoffrey b:

"Where do you get this idea?"

From talking with probably a dozen contractors in this area, as well as planners/designers at the big box stores and the Tile Shop. Even among the "high-end" remodeling contractors I know, less than 50% (and by some estimates, more like 25%) are doing waterproof membranes on the walls.

"These are not the latest techniques - people have been doing this with tar paper (since the 1950's at least)."

So do you think that 1950's-era tar paper over sheet rock is a better solution than contemporary durock? I would say that newer installations with untreated durock are still less likely to leak, crack, or seep than your average 1950's tile shower.

"Spending more money? How much does a roll of 6 mil pol cost - $10? Another hour to tack it to the studs $50?"

He quoted me an additional $400 to install the membrane. I would have had to purchase the material separately. So we're talking at least an extra $500 in cost....which I said I was more than willing to pay. My point is not that the price was too high or that he was being cheap, but that there was literally no reason for him to argue *against* my installing the membrane given that it would have added (significantly) to his fee.

"He may be a friendly guy - but not competent - in my book."

I guess to me the true measure of competence is in the results of the work, not the technique. He claims never to have had a warranty claim or a leaky shower in over 15 years of contracting work. His references back that up as does his relationship with the Tile Shop, where he is one of just 3 general contractors on their referral list. I do wish that he had done the waterproofing, and I am frustrated with him for not taking more time to explain this to me at the beginning. However, I don't think it is fair or reasonable to call him incompetent simply because he didn't use a membrane during installation, especially since that appears to be a relatively common practice in this market.

"Waterproofing pdf"

That link shows specs for the installation of a steam shower. He specifically said that he would always do a membrane in a steam shower. Mine is just a standard shower with a fixed showerhead, a diverter valve, and a hose.

Look, I'm not going to argue with you.

@A Smith: "So do you think that 1950's-era tar paper over sheet rock is a better solution than contemporary durock?"

They applied tar paper to the bare studs, then nailed expanded metal lath, and screeded 'mud' (cement) over that.

"That link shows specs for the installation of a steam shower" If you look it up (Google) TCNA shower waterproofing - it says shower / steam shower.

" I don't think it is fair or reasonable to call him incompetent simply because he didn't use a membrane during installation, especially since that appears to be a relatively common practice in this market."

Of course too there could be a seam in the Durarock that could leak in the corner or middle of the wall.

Well if that's how they do it in your market, what are you worried about? Why do you want to rip out the wall and apply Redguard?

I don't understand the logic behind your post. At this point I'd say use the shower and find out.

"Look, I'm not going to argue with you."

"I don't understand the logic behind your post. At this point I'd say use the shower and find out."

I'm not interested in arguing with anyone, either.

The logic behind my post is that I'm trying to find ways to mitigate risk without having to tear out an $8,000 shower and start over. I'm also trying to figure out my baseline level of risk. Is it a dead certainty that I'm going to have a leak or seepage within 5 years, or is it a ~50% risk? Is it less than 10%. These are important considerations when you are talking about a major expenditure. It is easy for people to jump in and say, "You got screwed by that contractor, he's incompetent, tear it out and start over!" But they aren't the ones who are looking at writing one big check on top of another.

If I can significantly mitigate risk by simply getting behind the wall and painting on some RedGard, that is obviously a much cheaper/easier solution than tearing out the tile and starting over. But I don't know enough about the mechanics of all this to know if applying RedGard between the studs would even make sense. To my layman's brain, it seems like it should help, but I'm not sure.

I am no expert but have you considered that since the exterior of that Durrock is in an open attic space it is likely to dry out pretty readily on its own if you have any kind of ventilation.. Go up there and hang a damp wash cloth on a metal step stool. See how long it takes to dry.

I think it is a crap shoot as to whether or not you have any issues in future. Probably a lot depends on maintenance and cleaning products, frequency of shower use, the avg humidity in that room which effects rate of drying for exterior tile/grout and any moisture bleeding behind the grout. The plumbing could be factor too.

If your house experiences settling of any significance (which is concern in my TX area) then that movement can cause unexpected shifts between planes which can damage tiling.

Didn't you already ask this exact same thing under a different title? It seems like what you want is just for someone to agree with you. I think you got your answer on the other thread.

A Smith- I kind of agree with catbuilder. I think you already got your answer and it wasn't the one you hoped for.

I can relate because I'm in the same boat. In my case I plan to buy extra tile now and stick it in a closet. If I start having problems down the road (this is probably our forever house) I'll be able to redo the shower area without having to redo the whole room (mine is also wainscoting around the room).

I chalk it up to a lesson learned that will be helpful as we work on BR#2. The extra tile helps me sleep at night and enjoy the really nice shower I have now.

HTH- Lisa

A Smith:

I believe I already answered your question on your other thread "Membrane", but I'll answer it here again. Since you can't apply any membrane between the cement board and the studs, you're wasting your time. You may start a third thread, but my answer will remain the same.

I think applying some Red Guard may make you feel better, so it may be worth if for that alone.

I still don't understand why you have the same question in two separate topics. Yes, you phrased them a bit differently but that doesn't make them different questions. No idea what you're looking to gain other than getting someone agreeing with you.

You got answers and you don't agree with them but you keep picking at it. How does this help?

waterproofing required PERIOD! If a contractor does something wrong for 20 years it's still wrong.

Andrew, buyer's remorse is a terrible thing to have. Trying to justify your decision that you made isn't going to help that decision become a better one. And neither is repeatedly getting angry at the messengers instead of that fella in the mirror. He's the guy that let you down, not these folks.

Either do the tearout now, or plan to do it later after the budget has recovered and there is some damage to deal with. Spit or get off the pot. Silly bandaids in the wrong spot won't do a thing to address the real problem.