We pulled permits for all our work in our last house and this one, not our first house. We live in a condo now and had to prove we had permits and insurance in order for the workmen to be in the building. Our only problem was a flaky sprinkler contractor, who didn't get the permit he was supposed to get, and then did the work all wrong, so we had to use our holdback to get it redone to the city's satisfaction. Everything else went fairly smoothly, except that the original inspector wanted proof that our condo was grandfathered into some old rules and we didn't have it. My DH had to go down to the city, where they sent him to the microfiche room to find the original conversion permits (from the early 90s - this was an industrial building originally). Anyway, short story is he couldn't find the permits, and neither could they! Fortunately, they agreed they couldn't realistically hold us up since they couldn't find their own paperwork.

We pull permits. Well, more accurately, we hire people who pull permits. It's a bigger hassle now that we live in CA--more expensive permits and more requirements to meet. But we still do it.

It's been many years since I watched HGTV, but Holmes on Homes is the show that left quite an impression on me. I know inspectors are not perfect, but I still appreciate an experienced set of eyes checking our contractors' work.

Hopefully once your kitchen project is complete you'll have peace of mind. A whole-house, to-the-studs renovation in six weeks is not necessarily something to brag about. How is the quality of work?

We also did a total gut renovation (on a 1200 square foot home) with an awesome GC and it took 8 weeks to get to drywall. I was on site every day as were his guys. There were only a few hours one afternoon where no work got done because the trades scheduled finished early, but there were several days where I counted 9 men--including our GC--in and under and around the house. He was so detail oriented and so organized that I just can't imagine he could have finished our project any faster without sacrificing quality.

Location, location, location!!!

In my last house, I lived in town and I was required to pull permits for the electrical and plumbing but there was never a long wait, just an application, sign some papers, and have them come inspect when everything was done.

I completely re-did all of the electrical and plumbing as well as other cosmetic facelifts to a 1953 home and it was, start to finish, 76 days.

That was 76 days from closing on the house and starting remodel/update the same day and moving in 76 days later with all work completed.

I now live outside city limits and the only thing that needed a permit or inspection was my septic system.

Both homes were (almost) complete DIYs.

The 1953 home, the city's sewer main ran through my property so they wouldn't allow us to touch it. Only a certified and insured plumber could tie into the city main. We replaced everything in the house and we dug the 14 ft deep hole in our backyard where we tyed into the city main.

Then we had to pay a licensed plumber 600 dollars to climb in our hole and spend 20 minutes connecting our drain to the city main.

"Frustrating though it may be, the permit/inspection process is THE ONLY PROTECTION YOU HAVE AGAINST FAULTY WORKMANSHIP."

The protection you have against faulty workmanship is the reputation of the contractor you selected. I do not have any jobs that I am not proud to have my name on.

Inspection divisions have to approve work as long as it meets code. Code can have little to do with quality. Yesterday, I gave an elderly woman an estimate of several thousand dollars to repair her sliding doors because of the poor detailing of her railing that was completely code compliant.

I'm doing a gut to the studs whole house remodel at a glacial pace and I am doing all the work myself except plumbing. I am pulling permits for everything except the first phase of the remodel, which was the roof and siding, because I did not realize I needed a permit. I told them I was sorry about that and they said that was okay and the inspector looked at the work and said it was fine.

I did have a state L&I guy come by one day when I was working on the siding. I don't know how he found me, but the second he found out I was the homeowner he stop talking and left. It was that quick. I have no idea why he was there. They cover worker safety.

The inspection process has gone remarkably well, both with the city inspectors and the state electrical inspectors. They show up, spend a few minutes looking at what I've done, and ask a few questions that get answered to their satisfaction, and they seem happy with my work. We then chat for a few minutes about the next phase of the project and any questions or issues I have, and then they sign off and leave.

I guess I'm lucky to live where I do. The inspectors seem genuinely eager to get me through this project as safely as possible without tying up my hands in the minutiae of government bureaucracy, and I have a much, much nicer and safer house because of it.

I'm a little skeptical about how much value inspectors add. We had a new furnace and hot water heater installed before we moved in. Contractor pulled permits--I was given copies--and I know the work was inspected and passed because I was here during the inspections and heard the inspector say the work passed.

Our GC for our expando kitchen remodel pointed out what he perceives as code violations in that work and says he has to fix them. He is not charging us any extra to fix these things so there is no motivation for him to lie. He correctly guessed which inspector passed us and said the inspector he likes to work with will not pass the new work without correcting the problems.

Maybe this is a differing interpretations issue where the answers aren't cut and dried, but it does make me feel like the inspection process isn't to be relied on for quality control.

I have permits pulled for stuff that is "big" or that I can't see. The pool guy was very annoyed when I suggested he needed permits to do his work. (That should have been a warning sign...he got it done properly but it's sort of a character thing.)

I don't pull the required permit to change a faucet or light fixture. I'm willing to gamble there. :P

There is a house near me that is in a legal limbo after being caught doing an unpermitted addition. The people live there but can't finish it...had a tarp for a roof for a few years and still have no stucco or front steps. My own house was extremely underpriced because of all the major unpermitted work the POs had done.

My town has one of the stiffest codes out there and is constantly making the top of lists on "thorough code enforcement" but they are nice and fair and get out there within 24 hrs. It's just not a big deal.

No, inspections aren't for direct quality control. But, just like in school when you were taking a test with the teacher in the room vs. down the hall, the behavior of some people will change if they might be under quasi supervision vs. none. And, just like in school, some people will do the best that they can, with no cheating, regardless of supervision, because that is their character makeup. To Joe's point, that person of integrity is the contractor that you seek to find on the front end.

With the age of information, it's becoming increasingly easy to discover if the proper permits for renovations have been pulled. Smart home buyers are insisting that any home that they purchase be inspected by the AHJ for any projects. And foolish homeowners don't realize that they may get away with not pulling a permit at this time, but won't be able to get away with it down the road when they need to sell. They might not even get away with it for their current project if they have neighbors who turn them in, or the AHJ has a ride around program.

Ah yes, it is the customer's fault for not finding the right contractor. Naturally. Well, we did the furnace and hot water heater before we moved in because the old furnace was not working at all and the old hot water heater did not meet earthquake standards and was waaaaay past its life expectancy. Not optional items. Couldn't wait. And the only person we knew in town was our real estate agent. So we took her recommendation. And made sure the work was permitted and inspected. But, yes, obviously still our fault for not choosing a contractor with integrity.

I would never allow a job to be done in my home without a permit (if one is required). Especially if you have to sell your house. Imagine the havoc that can ensue when unpermitted work is discovered and the seller has to go back to the county to get a permit for a job that was done years ago. Also, let's say you do electrical work without a permit and there is a fire. How happy do you think your insurance company will be when you file a claim and they discover the work is not permitted?

Both our renovations on this house were fully permitted; my home is a major investment and it seemed stupid to save a few hundred dollars on permits to risk a loss of tens of thousands if we had any sort of renovation disaster. So yeah, we paid for permits, permit renewals, insurance for being under renovation, expediters (a NYC thang), the whole ball o' wax.

I know someone whose house sale fell through because she built a deck without permits and it came to light during the buyer's due diligence. She had a couple of months of hoops to jump through and eventually had to remove the deck since it wasn't to code and couldn't be made so. What should have been a straightforward sale stretched out for months in limbo and she ended up paying more for legal advice and demolition than she would have paid for the original permit.

All great advice here and it's cheaper than a lawyer. Take it and be happy!

One day your neighbor will have you over for a beer. He will cry in his and you will say..."there , but for the grace of those fine people on houzz, go I".

My 82-year-old father-in-law bought a house that had 53 cats living in it previously several years ago. At the beginning of the job, he got really mad at the neighbors for turning him into inspection, but they didn't do it. (Neither did I.) It was a good thing, because as good as he is, he's still quite a hillbilly when it comes to certain things remodeling. The inspectors were polite but insistent. Who knows how many lives they saved this time.

Ironically, he's a big-government advocate supporting all kinds of government reach into people's lives, until the government reaches into his.

In my area, a permit is only needed if you are adding square footage to the structure, a deck, or driveway. They are only worries about the permeable/nonpermeable surface ratio for the lots, and the setback from water and lot edges. For the rest, f the owner is doing the plumbing, electrical, or carpentry, no permits are needed. Permits are however needed for trades people to do these items. Must be just to get their license fees....

In my last home, you needed permits to change out anything to do with water heaters, gas lines, furnaces, heat pumps or any water pipes or wire in a wall. Go figure.

Where I live, in the land of big government (Alameda County, CA), the permitting issue doesn't come up when a house sells. (Well, it comes up when your realtor sends a lackey to see what permits had been pulled on the house and only finds a swimming pool permit from 1961 when the house clearly has had load bearing walls altered. At that point, the offer price drops a few hundred thousand. But the city doesn't care and doesn't require anything to be done.)

Definitely pulled permits. At one point, we couldn't get answers on updates to smoke detectors. My neighbor and friend was required to bring the whole house up to new standards.

Our problem was with vaulted and cathedral ceilings- where to put them and if we needed one in every bedroom

I said to GC- let's have them do the inspection and then we wi have the definitive answers. We passed but I recently updated our detectors to have all go off at the same time.

There is THAT issue--now in CA if you pull any sort of permit, you need to update noncompliant plumbing as well as have proper detectors. Again, not that bad...unless you have to replace a pink toilet. :(

if you use a realtor when you sell your house, it's a question that comes up in the property disclosure form, which you really should fill out unless you absolutely don't live in the house and just don't know the answers.

It doesn't really matter whether you use a realtor here, you still need to disclose the fact that the work was done without permits. The city doesn't care, but the buyer might (or might not - we did out original remodel (San Mateo County, CA) back in 1986 with permits but never got final signoff. Our buyer couldn't have cared less).

They get permits on Flip or Flop. They were probably just upset that they had to get an additional permit at an additional cost for the unforseen work on the water main.

One thing I am doing during my remodel is documenting everything I can with photos, receipts, material lists, owner's manuals, and all the permits, of course. When I am done remodeling, I will create a "house book" and leave it with the house if I ever sell. That way everything is documented, even the work I do behind the walls. Future owners can reference this book if they do further work and hopefully they will keep the book up to date.

Thx for all your feedback. Apparently, I'm the only person who gets permit for work in my neighborhood. My neighbors including a realtor was telling my sister that I was stupid for pulling permits. The realtor recommends to all her clients to do repiping or work without permits unless it's something that affects square footage.

The whole family is upset about all the delays and huge extra costs from the permit situation especially when they're seeing the neighbors doing construction without any issues or extra costs. My next door neighbor has been able to avoid the gas and electrical upgrades along with the structural engineer and additional concrete work even though he did the same exact repiping. This has saved him about $30K in costs plus the $10K in permit fees.

The neighbor 2 doors down got caught without a permit when the repipe people were here so they had to get one. The next door neighbor is still getting away with it so far.

rtmdoug, why isn't everyone like you? I wish my house came with a "house book" so I could figure out why the previous homeowner's did some of the things they did.

Doug- that's what I did with my old house, the 1953 one I mentioned above.

I also left the extra paint in every room so if they had a knick anywhere and needed to touch up they could.

We met the buyer, he was some young, just out of the military guy and he didn't seem to care at all.

House is listed for sale now and I had to go look at the listing photos, he didn't really change anything in the house so I guess he liked the colors at least.

jellytoast - I don't know why, but I would like to strangle whoever did the previous work on my house 40 years ago. I do think houses undergoing major remodels should have all the documentation included. With computers and digital photography and printing, it's not at all hard to do.

I wish we could have built our house without permits. The inspectors seem to know the least about construction than anyone. They want things done the way they've seen it for 30 years and don't argue with them. Period. Trying to go above and beyond the code older than me has caused ridiculous amount of grief.

Amberm145 - There is a reason for code lags, and sometimes for good reason. Houses are living, breathing things and one piece of code does not always cover the variables in climate. For instance, in the 1970's, code was written to require a vapor barrier on outside walls, so builders starting putting plastic sheeting on the walls. Over the years, people in certain climates started seeing major rot developing in their walls, but it took 10-15 years for the problem to surface. The code had to be changed and a lot of people had to spend a lot of money fixing this problem. This is why housewrap was invented.

TG - Ah, young guys! What can I say. I'm sure he appreciated the gesture :)

When I remodeled my kitchen, I replaced the fire-rated door between the kitchen and the garage. Because it was a new door, the inspector required me to build a little landing on the garage side as that was the new code. I tripped over it for weeks on end and it still seems completely awkward to me. Is it any worse to trip on the landing than it is to trip going in and out of the door? I'd been living in the house for 15 years without a single mishap in that doorway, but thanks to my new, safety code landing, I have a tripping hazard. Had I left the old door in place, the "needed" landing wouldn't have been required.

rmtdoug, I don't see how that illustrates that code lag is a good thing. The code said houses had to have plastic, 10-15 years later, they realized there was a problem, but it was already in the code? I guess by not changing the code, they forced the innovation that is house wrap? I can totally understand that there's going to be a trial period for new ways of doing things, and you don't change the code immediately. But while people are trying the new things (because someone has to be first), there needs to be some leeway. But because the inspectors don't really understand building technology, they try to stop all innovation. And by innovation, I mean anything since the 80s.

Or they accept that in some cases, the code is old, and judgment has to be made. But it's THEIR judgement. And even if you can get a stack of experts to say their judgement is wrong, they're the guy with the union job that gives him the final say.

Mike Holmes was mentioned above, and he always says, "code is the bare minimum." And inspectors in my area don't recognize what is minimum and what is better. It has to be EXACTLY to code. Or EXACTLY to their personal preference.

On the other hand, in my area, it's all about new codes. We constantly have new regulations that requires all sort of costly and new things especially additional third party inspections. Title 24 requires that all my lighting be LED and my electrical wired for low voltage just because I had a flood. I'm trying to avoid having to upgrade every single water fixture in the house because of the kitchen.

Where in the world do you live that permits cost 10k?

amberm - The code I referred to was forced on everyone by federal regulations for energy efficiency without proper vetting by the industry. It did not say "plastic wrap". It said "vapor barrier." So, it's not the code per se but how it is implemented. Your local inspectors may very well be old-boy-network Luddites but you may also live in one of those areas that got burned in the past over some code problem.

I do know one thing; arguing with an inspector while they are inspecting your project is a bad idea. They sometimes inspect 20+ properties a day and they simply don't have time. The time for doing this is before the work is even started. If you want to try something different, talk to the plan reviewers in the building department before you start. I discussed with them using Pex in my house two years ago and I won't do the plumbing until next summer. I presented how I wanted to run the lines and asked them specifics of how code would affect the plan and they answered my questions. In fact, after discussing with the plan reviewer and them asking one of the inspectors, we came up with an even better way of doing it.

Beachem - I really feel for you. I think you are being harassed by your local government and have a legitimate complaint. Some cities set up speed traps to make extra revenue. I suppose some cities use regulations for the same thing.

@bry911

Our permit fees is a percentage of your total project costs, .5%-1% - labor and materials. My neighbor did a full whole house remodel. He spent around $150K after cutting corners with some things like using my handyman to jackhammer post tension slab.

I'm in southern Cal. Each city has it's own fee structure. The city next door charges $100 flat fee.

@rmt it's about revenue and about bragging rights of being the most advanced city with regulations. They pride themselves on being tougher than the state.

"... I would like to strangle whoever did the previous work on my house 40 years ago. I do think houses undergoing major remodels should have all the documentation included. With computers and digital photography..."

I hope those two thoughts were not meant to go together. Otherwise, the workers 40 years ago have a valid excuse. ;-)

we are fully permitted - our town is super strict and it's not worth the risk in shoddy work or in likely fines when caught.

ETA: we also have permit fees that are a % of cost of the job. i personally think it's a joke. it's offensive how much it costs for the "right" to then pay people to improve your house. which then triggers the town to raise your property taxes. we live in NNJ, which has shockingly high property tax. so really, we are just sucked dry all around when it comes to home improvements. it almost doesn't pay to do them

Wow, I got curious and looked up the permit fees for my city.

Building permit is $ value x .003

Electrical is 40 dollars

Plumbing is 40 dollars

Initial inspection costs nothing unless you want it after hours. Reinspection is 40.

I don't know our exact permit fees. It's rolled into our contract with our GC. But I know it is thousands of dollars and more than one permit required for our project: moving attic access, putting washer and dryer in closet, taking down a wall to expand the kitchen into the former laundry room, gutting the kitchen and hall bathroom, and repairing dry rot damage to joists/studs/sill.

gyr_falcon, how true. Things were much simpler back then, but finding one living room wall stuffed with newspaper for insulation was a bit much. Who knows, I might be bad-mouthed in 40 years because of something I did or did not do on the house. In fact, I'm sure I will be at some point.

Rmtdoug, discussing something beforehand is not an option. We've tried. But the response is that it's entirely up to the discretion of whoever shows up at your house that day. In fact, we have 2 inches of exterior rigid foam insulation, on the house and in the plans. This is required by code in other parts of the country, done all the time in commercial buildings, but never seen in residential buildings here. We've had *2* inspectors insist we take it down. We eventually had to get an engineers letter, and point out that it's on the approved plans. But it was STILL a fight when individual guys saw it.

Our GC talked to the city about our window plans a few months ago--sure no problem. When he went to pull the permit--no, no way, you need structural work that would cost an extra $6,000. Fortunately he had not ordered the windows. Unfortunately, bye-bye window plan.

"...after cutting corners with some things like using my handyman to jackhammer post tension slab."

I got chills reading that. A handyman, a jackhammer, and a post tensioned slab. What could go wrong?