One piece I forgot is a question on the type of dirt to use. Is it top soil, soil I'd order from a landscape place or is it fill dirt that I'd get from an excavator.

thanks again for your time, Conrad

Conrad, let's simplify this. What is your overall objective in one sentence? ... just to reduce the drop off at the edge of the patio?

You don't want any more retaining walls ... so it can only be done with SLOPE. Are you saying the the run (horizontal extent) of the proposed slope is 3'? (Too short.)

Let's not talk about plants until the earthwork is understood.

No. Too steep slope. Match the steps. You don't have room for 3' level. Maybe 1'.

So if I make it 1' wide and match the steps with the slope, it would be about 11' in slope (the stairs are about 12' running out). Does this sound right? Is 1' wide enough for some sort of plantings/landscape bed or do you mean just plant grass?

How much of a dropoff should I allow? 12" or should I do more like 18 or 24?

It seems like the plantings would help things transition well vs. just dropping off but it's hard for me to visualize and I can't find pictures of a patio that's 4' above grade.

Also, just realizing taking the slope out that far (12' vs 6' going out along the steps) is going to take 2.5-3x the dirt volume. If that's what it takes to do it right, oh well. hard to visualize

It is not necessary to have a level area for planting. They can go on a slope.

But a small level area looks better. Not making suggestions here for what or how you should plant. Just trying to illustrate how shrubs could fit. Space how you would any shrubs next to wall.

I agree - slope should extend to the foot of the steps as Yardvaark has drawn. If thoughtfully planted, this could be an extremely attractive add-on to the terraced patio as well as providing the necessary safety feature. And reduce the huge expanse of lawn.

OK, so we'll stick with 1' flat area and a longer transition following your yellow line.

What's your opinion on the drop off height, 12" or 18" or 24"?
Is the yellow line for dirt and the blue line for mulch?

I like the look of having shrubs only coming up a bit above the patio.

With a few of those decisions finalized. I'm considering having dirt delivered this weekend. Assuming I can get a truck up to the patio, do you think I can do the rest with shovels and rakes. I was going to rent a small skid steer or dingo to move the dirt but I'm going to find a way to get trucks directly to the site.

Gardengal48, thanks for your comments. I'm going to extend to the foot of the steps. I appreciate the extremely attractive add-on potential, of course with.. "the key is if thoughtfully planted." I welcome any suggestions. We'll see if I can pull this off. I'll let you guys be the judge.

I'm envisioning low mounding shrubs planted in repetition; kind of a formal look, but I think it would suit your house

Any thoughts on a way to lessen the formal look, we don't like formal. I was going to at least get shrubs that grow naturally vs. getting trimmed perfectly.

Yardvaark (or anyone else), any thoughts on the questions above on height and understanding your drawing.

ah, well -- if you don't want formal, don't plant stuff in orderly rows! Look at pics of "natural style" garden plantings.

I got these shrubs from Gardengal's recent suggestion for midatlantic area, they're gorgeous shrubs, but I'm not sure if they are appropriate for the space/maybe too big? They were all really nice, the Loropetalum was my wife's favorite.

"What about a fall/winter blooming Camellia sasanqua? These have a looser habit than the spring blooming varieties and are very sun tolerant. In fact they bloom better given a fair amount of sun.

Loropetalum? (bit iffy on its hardiness in your area)
Pieris japonica 'Mountain Flame' or 'Variegata'
Viburnum x pragense or burkwoodii
Lonicera nitida 'Lemon Beauty'"

Personally, I wouldn't want any shrubs very tall around the patio. 18" above floor level would be plenty for me and lower would be fine. In my book, with shrub masses, a little goes a long way. Even shrubs that grow slowly tend to increase in height over time and when they get too large, they're a pain to cut when they're in a broad mass. A single or double row hedge would be fine to maintain, though not necessary.

In the drawing, the blue line represents a low ground cover, not mulch. It's there to complete the drawing, but it doesn't rise to the level of being a specific suggestion in that exact form. I didn't know what your planting intentions were. You might consider a mass planting of groundcover or perennials acting as such. Could be all one thing or subdivided into fairly large groups ... in a geometry that makes sense for the space and purposes. A mix of hybrid daylilies with a selected blend of colors is a nice, long-blooming thing to have around a patio. No idea what the patio and house are comprised of but maybe some small flowering trees spaced out on the slope would work for creating a little shade, giving a sense of protection and framing some of the view into the back yard. Here's a pic of a somewhat similar situation showing how perennials were used as groundcover. There is a mass of daylilies, not in bloom, further down the hill, which you see in the second picture. (Pictures are taken at different times of year.) There is no height trimming of any of these plantings.

Wow, much to think about. The pictures you sent looked a lot better than grass on the slop with a landscaped bed. This approach would really soften up my house much better.

Low maintenance is a high priority for me. So I think trying to get away from shrubs is a good plan. I'm just not familiar with plantings at all. I'm still a bit hung up on figuring out what the height of the step down off the porch should be. Now that I understand your yellow/blue lines, it appears from your sketch the dirt line would be every bit of a 24" dropoff with ground cover around 18". This also looks similar to the photos you sent. I was worried this would be too much but assuming you agree with those dimensions, I'm going with it.

The picture below gives a bigger picture. Note the patio section we've been discussing is on the right, it's way off to the side of the house (actually the carriage house/inlawsuite that was my grandmother's "retirement home" for 10 years until she passed away. (Don't be confused by the identical section in the middle labeled as Future: Phase 2, I was going to try out this concept on the side of the house with lower grade before attempting it in the middle section.)

Here's an image looking out with the red circle on the left showing the area we're discussing. The panorama distorts the middle of the house making it appear as the center of the breeezeway.

Because this is off to the side of the carriage house, it's really removed so I wasn't overly concerned about plantings, however, low maintenance is much better. Could you tell me what the purple and pink ground cover are. I'm not the most creative and would like to try to just copy what's in the photo if it works in 7b.

Be careful not to grade such that it directs water toward the house. (Some retaining wall would help make this easier.)

Note how the plantings in my picture are organized in terms of height ... with the taller material at a greater distance from where one would enter. You may be able to use some of the same plants -- daylilies for sure -- but I can't speak to other things. The picture is Atlanta area. The pink groundcovers were two different varieties of Dianthus, the taller one being 'Bath Pink' and the shorter being 'Firewitch'. But don't hesitate to use whatever works well and is the right specs. for your location. Look around to see what's growing and looks great.

The building code for VA specifies no more than a 30" drop before a rail is required. I think 12"-18" would feel more comfortable and allow easier maintenance of whatever you plant. Your phase 2 area is more trouble. I would probably just bit the bullet and add the rail on that side. You could plant larger shrubs that bloom same time and color as your phase 1 plantings to tie them together.