Disregard comments like "everyone is doing that" etc. Most kitchens in new houses have terrible layouts because architects and builders are clueless about kitchen function. Why would you want what everyone is doing?

Don't get hung up on the sink window. Have one now just by chance, didn't for years. When I'm at the sink, I am rinsing something or cutting something, not looking out the window.

Oh, I just saw that you posted new options. Does option 1 have a decent view?

I laughed out loud while reading your post. Not because of anything you said. But really, to say a frig is ugly? It's a frig, not a Rembrandt. And while I do love that we are now treating kitchens more like "living spaces" and therefore are adding decor normally found in other rooms of the house, instead of the old "utilitarian" room with no personality, this is an example of the pendulum swinging too far the other way. Kitchens have frig's and stoves and DW etc. It's what they do. Let's not lose perspective here people.

Stand your ground and put every single thing exactly where you want it. It's your kitchen. Own it. ;)

p.s. Your house is just gorgeous!!

ediblekitchen

Both have the same view of the fence and perhaps the lower part of neighbors roofing / gutter. I was just a little more creative in naming the 2nd one.

I prefer the island in option 2 so that puts me firmly in option 2 preference. Reason: DH is a lefty and helps out a lot in the kitchen. It is nice when we can workflow in a left-to-right as well as right-to-left way. Having the prep sink on the corner of the island eliminates us working side-by-side in the kitchen at the island prepping. If I use island 2 with option 1, the prep sink is sort-of redundant because the main sink is right behind us.

I actually really like option 2 almost as much as my original plan. I'll have to figure storage differently, but I can work with it I think. Somewhere I read that I shouldn't put any appliance in a pantry because of ventilation. What do I need to do to vent the pantry to allow for the freezer to be in there?

I like option 2, but to me the logical place for your flatware, glasses, plates, coffee maker, toaster, would be next to the fridge.

Could you make the door to the pantry a pocket door and keep the pantry open for ventilation?

I was going to comment on that. I have a chest freezer in ours and no vent for a/c heat. I do leave the door cracked open all the time or else it does get warm and stuffy in there in the summer. Something to consider for sure. I am in the midwest so not hot and steamy for long but it was noticeable. I didn't even think of it until we were moved in and had the freezer going. Oops.

Depending on your door style you could put a door in with some sort of louvers or screening in a panel? Or you could just leave it open a crack if that wouldn't bother you. Ours is off the kitchen opening from the garage hall (outswing door) so it doesn't bother me at all but I thought it might.

beth-yeah I wonder if the ugly talk stems from open homeplans. Ours is open and I did NOT want to see the honkin fridge hanging out there. It's still there but the sides are not exposed (full panel) and it appears built in. It is what it is but I would have preferred a partially secluded kitchen yet open somehow.

Are you an ice family? If the freezer is the ice source, having it in the pantry could cause issues. Or not. I'm not sure. But consider it.

It sounds like you have a good plan with Option 2. And the pocket door idea is smart.

debrak hit the nail on the head. I like to look at house plans, and real estate listing of the most expansive homes in our area. Few have a kitchen that would survive GW critique. Why would someone who is thoughtful about their wants and needs want to do that?

And perhaps in 10 years (or whenever the OP decides to sell) "everyone" will want their cleanup sink away from the island. Or want to rebuild the kitchen altogether. I think it's silly to design your kitchen for some mythical buyer of the future, at the expense of your own years of enjoyment and use.

If your worry is resale value at THAT level, I'd consult a real estate professional, not a builder, y'know? For me, visible fridge--as long as you panel the side, of course--is just the way it has to be. If you keep it where it is now...my favorite thing I've seen is to put a bookcase there, maybe a shallow one you put serving/display plates on?

Window over sink: I have it. I wash all pots/pans by hand, as well. a) I HAVE a nice view & I don't look at it very often when actually watching dishes (I do OTHER times, so I want the window, but window + sink, not so much). Though, 10 ft away, you could presumably pretty it up a bit (plants by fence?). b) you don't spend THAT much time washing, do you? Personally, I mean? Generally seems like 10-15 min total, compared to the amount of prep & cooking time, that's nothing. If I ever get to remodel, quite possibly the prep area will get the window--spend more time doing that!

autumn, that must be it. Because never before would a comment like this be made (I don't think), but open concept is relatively new, so that makes sense.

I completely understand you not wanting to see bad view and neighboring house out a window. My kitchen sink window faces my neighbors' house siding 12 feet away. If I could have closed it in during our current remodel, I would have in a heartbeat, and put the range there and sink in island. Unfortunately, not in the budget. Freaked me out when we first moved here....I had shade open and our neighbor came walking by between houses. I keep my shade closed all the time.

DW in front of the pantry door in a 36" aisle is going to leave you with about 9" of free space when the door is open. You won't beable to stand there or work your way in the DW without smacking your elbows or butt or shoulders against the corners of the open shelves. Putting the DW there is simply not going to work.

I like option #1, with a couple of changes.

I'd move the DW to the left of the sink, which gives you another prep area between sink and range. Also move prep sink to the left--you'll be prepping beside it, so you'll be closer to the range, to pivot and drop. The trash on the corner could be shared between prep and cleanup, if necessary. Alternately, trash could be on the right side of the sink and still be shared, with dishes in drawers on the corner. Thank you for the window. ;)

Okay, done goods ideas here. Kids need attention. I'll come revisit this agreed they are in bed

Thank you all! I'll be back!

I like option one with the sink and cleanup area closer to the dining area. I'm right handed and think I can prep anywhere.

I would really like to see your freezer in your main kitchen, unless your full fridge has a freezer? Barring that, could you move it to the opposite wall of the pantry and put in a pocket door which you could leave open, except when company comes over. Or make a smaller pantry opposite the freezer with and inward opening door.

That is a really good idea actually. .. hmm.

About ice. We haven't had ice in 2 years because my ice maker was leaking. I've since fixed it but didn't turn the water back on at the wall so still no ice. I will ask DH his thoughts though. Maybe I can do a french door unit in the kitchen and put a second unit in the pantry down the road.

Here's option #2 with a couple of changes. If a sink needs to go in the inside corner, it shouldn't be the clean-up sink. Clean-up on the island, with the DW on the corner, will be more convenient for receiving dirty dishes. Prep is more convenient adjacent to range. I moved the range closer to prep sink so that DW and oven doors don't overlap.

You're getting a lot of great options. I just wanted to commiserate on the "everyone doing it" comments. To me, I wanted a smooth, uninterrupted island surface. No stove, no sink. Oy, what a fight. I don't know how many times the architect and GC said "but that's where it GOES!"

I currently have a window that faces the neighbour's siding. For some reason, I prefer to look at their wall over my own. :D It's on the NW corner of the building and it's still enough light for pots of herbs. DH doesn't understand my insistence of having the sink in front of the window, either.

"builder doesn't like my kitchen layout"

Tell him you don't like his flannel shirt. So there.

I would do lavender_lass idea

Keep all the big freezers on one side, it would make the space look bigger.

Thank you to all of you commiserating with me about contractors having a say in our lives. I prep, a LOT. A lot a lot. We both work full time. On Sunday during gardening season when I get my CSA share I sometimes spend 2 hours prepping and washing produce for the week. TWO HOURS, at one time, per week. On normal weeks I wash all of the produce and prep it to small containers, ready to steam, or pack in lunches, etc. It's the only way I stay sane. I can't imagine doing this facing a wall.

I took culinary classes as part of my bachelors degree (hospitality management) and I'm a "clean as you go variety". I like to leave the dishwasher open while prepping and just drop the stuff in as I'm finished using it. The only thing left to wash up after a meal is the dishes we eat from and any pots that weren't cooled enough to wash before I served dinner. On casual nights we serve from the pan to the plate, so very few serving dishes to wash up afterward. Cleanup is a snap unless I'm entertaining. Even when I am entertaining, I just want to set the stuff out of the way and enjoy my guests and get around to washing up after they've left for the night.

I'm going to play around a little with karenseb's idea of reducing the pantry size. Maybe I can fit the jumbo fridge in that inconspicuous corner. Hmmm.

If you have to have a window with a view of nothing, a garden window thingy for herbs is nice. Then while you're washing dishes you can stress over that dead basil...

I Like what Mama Goose did with Option 1. However if you don't want the window, don't put it in. It's your kitchen! I also like the reduced pantry but would like it with what Mama Goose did. This way the DW can stay open like you like to use it for cleaning as you go, and it's out of the way of the work zones. I think her idea is a win/win.

I'm very lucky in that my GC has a degree in design, so I value his suggestions. But, he gives me solid reasons for making a change. Because he's never seen it done your way is not a valid reason. This process is stressful enough without tradesmen second guessing your choices. You have logical reasons for your choices and at the end of the day you have to live with them, not your builder or anyone else. I prefer my island for prep, it's just more comfortable for me to be able to look up and outside rather than face a wall, or my neighbour's wall but ymmv. I asked for some help a while back and I had people taking out my only kitchen window and putting my clean-up sink on the wall, so I think there is a way to get the things that are really important to you and still get the function. Hang in there, you will figure it out.

I thanked you for the window, with a 'wink', because of the way I whined on your other thread. :[

If you really don't want the window, and the space can be used for better storage, then I agree with cpartist--don't put it in. I wonder what your builder will say about that affecting resale, lol.

"This process is stressful enough without tradesmen second guessing your choices."

The last time I saw a tradesman second guessing an architect's choice, it would have saved everyone lots of money and looked and functioned much better, but the archy was having none of it.

There are times when the tradesman's input is valuable. Like rantontoo pointed out, if it's dangerous, will cost a lot more to build, or is unwise from a construction point of view. And my architect did a lot of crazy things that the GC had to point out. But "because everyone else does this" is not one of those times.

I will listen to the advice of almost anyone, especially if it's regarding something they've been doing for decades. I'll evaluate their reasoning, then may or may not "take" their advice. I have never taken it when it's based merely on subjective aesthetic judgments OR "everyone does it" or "no one does it." (My GC and tile guy both told me that "no one uses ceramic tile any more.") You know how you live and what bugs you.

I just remembered a pic that I posted a few weeks ago. It's the kitchen of a pro chef, and looks as if your kitchen could be easily adapted to the layout. I thought the prep sink was in a strange location, but the members who commented liked it. The chef has a subzero, but the two columns might look similar, and--no window on the sink wall.

[Houzz article.[(https://www.houzz.com/magazine/pro-chefs-dish-on-kitchens-how-marc-vetri-cooks-at-home-stsetivw-vs~15590375)

Pro Chefs Dish On Kitchens: Marc Vetri · [More Info[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/pro-chefs-dish-on-kitchens-marc-vetri-eclectic-philadelphia-phvw-vp~5008612)

I've had a sink facing the wall for 10 years. It doesn't bother me one bit. My kitchen does have a wall that is almost entirely window, with a pretty view, but it is behind me when I am doing dishes. No matter--at the sink I am always looking down at what I am washing, not gazing outward. And I agree with rantontoo's point about sink water splashing on a window vs. on a tile backsplash.

As to an additional window in your kitchen, that will be an expensive addition, and if the view would not be good, I don't think it's a good use of your money. I somehow keep thinking of a TV ad from a few years ago for window blinds. The ad revealed the homeowner's view first thing in the morning - a neighbor in a poorly-fitting undershirt, with big belly in profile and plumber's crack when he turned away. Made me laugh, but really, perhaps having no view is better than a bad view, especially if you are getting so much light from other windows.

I think that green is hideous ;) but the layout looks extremely functional. If I could get away with an island hood and didn't need to worry about my littles burning themselves on the stove as they sat at the island, I'd do something like that. I do love the open shelves for pots and pans but debris would drive me crazy.

The smaller pantry didn't work once I laid in the appliances. It didn't function to give me any more space and just made this weird bump-out ... so that's out.

Still working today with the cabinetry configurations to support option 2

I would still want some kind of natural light in the kitchen (even clerestory) but the plan works just as well with a plate rack or something else over the sink :)

What a beautiful home. I can see how that huge double stacked window wall will let in all kinds of light. I do admit, I have a real tough time with the NO window kitchen plan. Normally, that would be a deal breaker for me. But, I think in this unique case, I just might be able to get used to it.

I used to live in the PNW, so I understand the north side of a house, low light and the awful plague of mildew! Yes fori is right, no herbs are going to grow in a north window with another house shading it even more 10' away. Dead basil for sure! And I'm not sure what would be more depressing, looking at your new kitchen wall or a window view out to a wall of green and black mildew growing up your neighbors house? Hmmm....

I really like lavenders plan, with or w/o the window. I also like how she made the upper cabinets flanking the wood hood and the sink symmetrical as that always calms my ocd from flare ups. :-)

My only suggestion would be on the island to spin/switch whatever L7 and L8 are to be a large three drawer stack cross from dw. The skinny top drawer could be for silverware and the two deep drawers for dishes, etc. I love mine as it is makes unloading dw a breeze.

I am not saying there must be a window there, my brothers Portland craftsman has a similar arrangement for light (no windows within the actual kitchen but the island with sink and dishwasher do face out to an expansive forested view. His kitchen is not dark.

But herbs of course won't work for outside plantings. Does the neighbor not keep up the house, clean off any algae should any occur?

The Elisabeth C Miller gardens keeps a list, updated with new introductions, of plants for PNW for every exposure. Including deep shade if that should be the case. Not limited to ferns ;)

http://www.greatplantpicks.org/plantlists/search/

"...how "everyone else" is doing it..." If, 21 yrs ago, we hadn't built this home with an island cook top and pop-up downdraft like everyone else was doing - never mind that the island is really too small for a cook top - we wouldn't be incurring the major expense of changing our lay-out right now. But I didn't know any better at the time. So ignore what "everyone else is doing;" settle on a plan that makes sense for you, is functional and - if this isn't a long term home - isn't so personalized that it is a hard sell for future buyers.

My brain isn't focusing (stress of living through a remodel) to offer lay-out help but I have a suggestion for adding a window without being saddled with an unpleasant view: choose a window with patterned/obscure glass or - if you can swing the cost and it fits your home's style - a stained glass window ala what shanghaimom did in her lovely kitchen, finished! Vintage Cream in the City

Is that your only dining space? If so, 13'6" is a bit undersized if your table extends to seat more than 8. My DR is 14' long and when my table is fully extended to seat 10, I only have 39" at each end, which is on the snug side.

(morz8, Great Plant Picks is such a fabulous website! I recommend it all the time.)

OT - morz8, thank-you so much for that plant site. Another PNW'er (Cdn. side) here and trying to find a nice variety of shade plants without always resorting to the good old Hosta (which I do love) can be so hard.

Also OT - but I don't love hosta enough to fight the deer for them ;) Sarcoccoca (Sweet Box) is one of my favs for deep shade, evergreen, fragrant, and I've seen the overwintering hummingbirds feed there when little else is blooming yet.

I am with you!!! I do not want my sink in my island. We are a family of 5. I do not want to be fretting over every single dish on the island. My sink faces a wall. As a matter of fact. I am doing this.

The overhead shelf area will be inset and wider than the sink. I am also having a light installed on the bottom shelf.

Well, now that I see that fantastic wall of windows you have, I'm also cool without you having a window in the kitchen. Wow! Lisa said it well for many of us who also did it because everybody else was doing it and now we want to do it better. Do what works for you and your family. I think you have a good handle on your functional and aesthetic needs. Between your prior post about layout and the advice you've received in this one, you're on the right track.

@morz8, thanks for the Great Plants site and the tip about Sarcococco. From yet another PNWer who has hummingbirds year round.

Here's a question that I don't think was asked or answered, do you actually hand wash many dishes? It sounds like for yourself, the sink facing the wall makes sense. From a resale perspective I do think it is a negative, but I don't think it would be a deal breaker for most people.

I really like palimpsest's plan. It has nice symmetry and great function, and will look very nice from the front door. One of the things I do not like about many of the plans posted is that the range is not directly across the aisle from the prep counter. You want to be able to just pivot and access the range, not pivot and step. You might have to have a filler between freezer and pantry wall to ensure the freezer will open all the way.

It also keeps the cleanup off the island, which I agree is very important. If you GIS "kitchen sink on wall" there are lots of lovely options, and here is an article we trot out from time to time with lots of examples: http://www.thingsthatinspire.net/2010/04/kitchen-sinks-on-walls.html. You could even have no uppers and just do a huge arched mirror that would reflect your DR window (slider?), if that's a nice view. It's a cheap way to "fake" a window :) Ballard has some nice ones that look like arched, paned windows too.

I went back and read your comment about your prepping process. If you do most of your prep in isolation (not starting from scratch for each meal), cleaning up as you go, it might make more sense to consider the clean-up area as primary prep in option #2. The DW is convenient to prep area--the stove is convenient to scoop and drop. You can still include a small sink in the secondary prep area, for final prep while you're cooking, and for resale value.

This plan puts the freezer back in the kitchen (make sure that the door will open fully, if it opens toward the right side). You might consider stealing a few inches from the 48" aisle to make the prep space on the island a little longer.

But I think Mama Rachel said the one thing she didn't want was clean up on the island.

The builder doesn't want the fridge to be seen at first glimpse of the kitchen, which means that it would need to be on the lower right wall. Mama_Rachel doesn't want the draining dishes to be seen, which means that clean-up needs to be on the lower right wall. Someone needs to compromise. (Mama_Rachel, I'm backing you--it's your kitchen.) But the way you described prepping, loading the DW as you go, means the DW needs to be close to the prep area. In the plan that palimpsest posted, fridge is on the top left--your first choice--prep is on the island, but the DW is around the corner. If you move the DW to the other side of the clean-up sink, it will be more convenient for loading from the prep area. An alternative would be to have a dish drawer beside the prep sink, for washing implements used for prepping, or have the DW beside the prep sink, with a dish drawer beside clean-up sink, since most of the items washed by hand are large pots.

Using palimpsest's plan:

So many great plan options, surely one will work! And I love Gwlake's picture....just added that to my file :)

As for shade plants, we have colder winters on this side of the mountains, but I live in Washington state and we have lots of columbine, bleeding heart, ferns, rhododendrons and even a few roses that will grow in light shade (but too cold for most azaleas). I have deer, so no hostas, but they don't bother the rest of these plants....at least, not so far. Have fun with the gardening!

The above plan is very similar to the one you posted early on your other thread. Insert freezer and extra DW/dish drawer.

I can't tell from the plans if there is a second story. You said that it's a new build. How about a solar tube or two? It will provide outstanding natural light without clobbering your space. I have one and wish I had two. They are great. Less expensive than a window.

I designed a kitchen for myself that had the clean up area against a wall with no window. I had prep on the island. I did have windows on each side of the range. But, the house had a lake view. So, if you want your clean up along a wall with no window, go for it.

Smile nicely at the GC, pat his hand, thank him for his valuable input and tell him Sugar decided to put the sink by the wall and she doesn't want a window. If he is married or has a mother, he will recognize the signal that if mama ain't happy, nobody's happy.