We have our kitchen design and are seriously considering going RTA for our new home with either Scherr's or Barker because of the comments shared here on GW. We are going to be doing the fairly typical white shaker kitchen. Does anyone have a pros/cons between the two, in particular the cost difference between them? I am just trying to get an idea if they are comparable or if it is worth the effort to learn Barker's design tool and ordering semantics or to just utilize Scherr's design services to get the order correct.

I did not do a comparison between them. We just went with Barker when we decided to do RTA. The sample met our quality demands, they had features we wanted etc. Scherr's seems like a great product.

Sorry I didn't do a comparison either. Barkers is geographically closer to us and I went with it.

I tried to do a comparison but Scherr's website was wacko to me. I'm sure it is just me but I couldn't make heads or tales of it and that just put me off. I'm certain they make a great product from the reviews here but Barker was a better fit for me.

Yeah, I really found having an online ordering system of value since I could see how my choices impacted the bottom line. I'm sure if I'd had a firm kitchen plan going in, I would have checked out Scherr's too.

Wow, thank you everyone for all of the feedback! I am so lucky to have found this group. I have the potential layout drawn out, but not to scale, which it sounds like I need to do before I post it on this forum, so hopefully i can figure out that this weekend. Thanks again folks!

FYI, you can print graph paper. Just google graph paper and some printables will turn up. (I buy pads of graph paper at the office supply store because I go through a lot of it when I'm planning a project. But in a pinch I have printed some out.)

I did my own layout on graph paper and then drew a picture of the kitchen cabinets to visualize it. I ordered from Barker and found it very straight-forward.

Perhaps write down all of the dimensions, finishes etc. before pressing that intimidating "order" button.

That's the only part I found intimidating. So, measure, measure and measure again.

That Smoky Hills color is gorgeous!! Had I known all this, it may have given me second thoughts on Barker. As is, I ordered my island unfinished so we can paint it and save money, but would have loved that Smoky Hills for my island. We are on a tight budget, so we are even doing the crown ourselves to save money. But, by all means, if you can swing the extra, looks beautiful. (May contact you in the future for bathrooms!)

Ah, I wish I'd known about that option. I spent hours upon hours looking through RTA sites trying to find a nice gray stain. Zilch. Kitchen supply warehouse stocks too. And at least a few of my local kitchen designers I contacted had no gray at all or told me I'd have to go into their most expensive line to get a gray stain. Scherr's had no gray the first time I went looking. One KD wanted 1200 (to be taken off the cabinet cost) up front before even really talking with me about what I wanted.

Ultimately went with the natural walnut look because I know I love the wood (won't ever own an oak kitchen again if I can help it). And I figured as a classic wood, it'll stand the test of time better than trends towards gray. (So many kitchens I have saved in gray though, lol.)

I wonder how that $768 might have increased over the cost of a whole kitchen though...

And lol ... The top choices for vendors the Omega website gave me included a company I contacted to check out a Kitchen Craft quote ... This was my last contact: "Thank you for your email. I will review your layout and notes and I will call you in the next couple of days with some questions." That was on March 31. *grumpy face*

Omega are made in Iowa and are KCMA Greenguard Certified. Their customer service is second to none. They will do custom colors for only a 10% upcharge, and have recently expanded their walnut doors availability. The only drawbacks is that they have a 6-12 week lead time, depending on your choices. I'm doing a modern kitchen right now with aluminum framed doors for the top stacked cabinets, and those will be around 12 weeks in production.

Live-wire-oak, this is a great resource. Thank you for posting.

I agree that RTA isn't necessarily cheaper, especially if you count diy time. And certainly a good, experienced KD is worth the investment.

But, not everyone who does RTA is trying to "game the system." I would have gladly spent money on someone who was giving me superior product and design. I simply could not find that in my area and in my budget.

I appreciate that the market is diverse and differentiated so we all can chose what fits each situation best.

LWO, I appreciate your efforts. That took some time to do! So many places give you a sample price based on a "typical" (whatever that is) 10x10 kitchen. Do you have any idea how your costs would compare to Barker based on that "typical" kitchen"? I'm guessing the price difference would be much greater in that scenario. I'm guessing closer to $2000. Am I close?

What are the specs/materials for the Omega boxes, please? One of the things that is really appealing to my partner is the construction of the Barker cabs - and the plywood and such. We ordered a sample box to put together and he was super impressed with it.

Omega is all 3/4" veneer core plywood which is a step up from most ply used in many cabinet lines. They utilize doweled joinery for the sides and the back is dadoed into the sides. There is no higher quality construction level available.

The "typical 10x10" kitchen would actually be less cabinetry and less costly than shown in the above diagram, as it contains a range, refrigerator, DW, and only 30" high cabinets with no drawer bases, or roll out trays, or cut for glass or any other accessories at all. Just about 12 plain jane cabinets no frills, with zero finished sides or upgrades. Or even drawer bases. With blind corners.

The above diagram contains 48'' high cabinets, which many lines do not even offer. That's a full 18'' taller than the cabinets shown in a ''typical'' 10x10. The matching interior and cut for glass option is a giant upgrade from the ''typical'' kitchen. As are not just matching sides, but actual matching door end kits. The base cabinets contain 2 drawer stacks, and one cabinet with 2 roll out trays. Those are features never included in a 10x10 pricing. The custom 1/4" sizing used is also not widely available in most frameless lines that limit you to 3'' increments. Again, the base cabinets have full door end kits, not just color matching panels.

A simple crown and filler was also added, just to be within the framework of what Barker offers, although Barker limits you to 90'' lengths while Omega's are 96'' standard. Omega offers about 70 more choices in molding styles than Barker's 2 choices. And about 40 more finish choices, and 15 more wood choices. They also do custom requests, and custom colors on a per order quote basis. If you want to match your MCM Danish furniture, they can make that happen as a custom quote.

There is no better value available on the market today for true custom quality. That's a word that is too often misused and abused to market site built and site sprayed poor quality, well, dreck. This is built by real American craftsmen in Iowa, in a controlled environment, and finished in an appropriate clean room with the latest fashionable color choices and most durable topcoat finishes on the market. I've been to the plant, and I've shaken their hands. They are proud to produce the same quality that many of them did in smaller shop environments, but for a company that offers them health insurance, sick days, and paid holidays.

I'm not trying to ''sell'' anyone here. I personally believe in the product and want to share what I know with fellow kitchen enthusiasts. And I would just want people to actually research their potential product choices far more in depth than they often do. People make assumptions they need to DIY because cabinets from dealers are ''unaffordable'' and that KD's are ''unaproachable'' or ''expensive''. Nothing could be further from the real truth!

Here's an image of a 10x10 cabinet pricing layout. I'd be happy to price that on Monday for a comparison. I actually am not working this weekend (for a change) and am just noodling around with my morning coffee. I don't know what time I'll get to it, as I'm really busy right now, but I promise to post. White shaker good for everyone? :-)

If someone else could do the Barker shopping cart and post that, it could help everyone. Remember, no finished ends at all, no toekick, no crown. Just the list of cabinets shown above, exactly. ( Which is why those ''comparisons'' are so deceptive!) Now I have to go mow the grass and enjoy the sunshine. :-)

Thanks for the information, ProSource. If I can make time this weekend, I'd be glad to whip up a Barker's comparison....though this weekend is pretty busy.

One question for clarification on this statement: "The custom 1/4" sizing used is also not widely available in most frameless lines that limit you to 3'' increments. Again, the base cabinets have full door end kits, not just color matching panels."

When I last looked at Barkers, I could have sworn they allowed increments of every 1/4". Is that not true any more or did I get my lines confused or am I missing something?

I can also look into whether Omega has suppliers/dealers in Alaska. Some of these Midwest cabinet companies, like Shiloh, do not. I'm from Iowa, though. It's my home state and I'd be very into supporting small business there, if I could. In the meantime, I am enjoying my samples of Durasupreme cabinets, picked up yesterday, which seem to have very nice finishes...

When I say 1/4" customization is not normally available in some other frameless lines, I'm not referring directly to Barker. That refers to other commercially available lines that other may be looking at, like Ikea etc.

Goodness, I don't know about Omega's availability in AK! I know when Igloochic did her condo there with Dynasty/Omega, she used a freight forwarder and a firm here in the 48. That was several years ago though, and the situation may have changed. They have a dealer locator search on their website, but it's not the most accurate around. It lists us with our incorporation name rather than our dba name, and lists folks who don't even have a showroom.

Now, I really have to get outdoors!

The Barker sink base is missing the Tamarack option, as well as the 5pc drawer front option. That reduces the price difference even further, to right at $700. With more molding, and an actual stained finish/clearcoat, not a tinted conversion varnish. That's a big difference in finishing, as a tinted varnish reduces the ''depth'' of the woodgrain.

Just as an aside, when I was aggressively getting estimates on cabinets last Fall, I was putting in all the bells and whistles so I could see what I could pay for each line if I pulled out all the stops and got exactly everything I wanted. This includes a wall of tall cabinets in the dining room on the far wall, which amped up the cost pretty significantly. The estimates included crown and light rail and toe kick. My actual kitchen is on the smaller side, close to 12x8 or something like that? It is a U design, so there are maybe a few more cabinets than in an L.

Ikea was about 8K in their highest end doors

Barkers was about 12K in walnut medium stained on lowers, painted white on uppers

Bellmont 1900 was coming up towards 19K

I appreciate everyone's efforts to help all of us get educated about our options and the real price and quality choices available.

However, an important consideration that is missing from the conversation is the cost of installation. RTA allows the homeowner to be DIY on install.

We went with RTA because of the cost of the entire package: cabinets and installtion. I simply couldnt find and afford quality cabinets and installation.

Installation is an entirely separate issue from cabinet cost. I will work with anyone who wants to DIY their install, but I do cringe when they obviously don't know how to scribe an extended side to a wall, or an extended stile to a wall. Install is a LOT more than "just" using a screw gun to attach boxes to a wall. Getting everything level and plumb within all 3 planes is not easy. It takes a very experienced DIYer to get it 100% correct. And a lot of patience! :)

What is the difference between installing RTA cabinets and pre-assembled cabinets? In the end, they're both assembled when you install.

Unless you're talking IKEA which installs differently.

Maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying, jmarino19?

If we had ordered from a pre-assembled company instead of Barker, we would have installed ourselves as well.

LWO, I wish I had been able to work with terrific folks, like some of the pros on gw. Unfortunately, very high labor costs here constrained my cabinet choice. We were not doing a big remodel, only installing 5 base cabinets, and a cavity for the dw, and 3 upper cabinets. The lowest installation bid was $17k. No demo was involved. I was removing the old cabs myself. Our high bid was close to $30k! I'm not even joking. So we turned to DIY installation. Though we are not in the trades, we do have experienced professional tradespeople in the family for consultation (though they are not local!).

I went to a couple of local shops. They told me I would not be able to rely on the cab warranty if we did a self-install. I went through 6 months and 2 designers at HD, due to turnover at our local HD, and they said I needed an installer. Due to high labor costs, local cabinet builders were also out of reach. Labor costs pushed me to DIY RTA.

We did RTA because of space constraints. I have a really small wee little house with very little storage space.

Designsaavy, do you have a pre-assembled cabinet that you can recommend? We just bought a bigger house with a really old kitchen! Tia for any guidance.

Taking the discussion back to the original post for a moment; I found when playing with the CabinetVision planner (when I was considering Barker -- is that still what he uses?) that I had to disable my antivirus, then uninstall and reinstall the planner to get it to work properly. The antivirus program had messed up the first install. I believe that I was using Norton 360 at that time.

Whoa! $17-30,000 just for installation of 8 cabinets. Seriously, something isn't computing. I live in very pricey San Francisco. We installed a kitchen (Bellmont 1900, including a paneled built-in fridge). Even taking into account that installing the fridge panels took about 2/3 of a day , our entire installation (16 boxes and loads of trim) took less than a week and cost about $5,000.

Thank you everyone for all of the feedback! I've posted my attempt at the layout to scale for the Barker cabinets in another post. I would love any feedback you all might have! I'm also wondering the best way to get a quote on the cabinets live wire oak talks about to compare costs. Thanks!

I haven't had time to price out the quote listed above in Barkers. I DID manage to squeeze in a few minutes to go to Omega's website. Sure enough, there are 4 Alaskan dealers - and 3 of them are in Anchorage. The cabinets look beautiful. It doesn't seem they offer a frameless option, though. Is that true?

They offer Omega Full Access (frameless) and have done so for over a year now. They were introduced at last year's KBIS show in Las Vegas. I haven't had time to work up the 10x10. Too much other real world work at the moment.

I took a minute during my (late) lunch and plugged in the Omega Frameless 10x10 in a white shaker. $4493. Remember, no toekick, no finished sides, no crown molding, only a 12" deep cabinet above the fridge, etc.

live_wire_oak do you have a store front or business that we can order from?

Lwo, it is amazingly generous of you to spend your time on this!

And just because I told you that the 10x10 was deceptive, I tricked out that fake little kitchen.

When you start adding features, it adds up. Even things that people don't think of as "features". Like crown molding and toekick, and a touch up kit. Then start adding things that you really want. Like stacked cabinets to the ceiling, a corner pull out, a better corner upper cabinet, a pull out trash, and a drawer base. That will take the 10x10 up to $10,361 with the features indicated below.

Then, there's the super upgraded version which adds decorative door end kits to the exposed ends, a wood hood, and the uppers with decorative muntins and matching interiors. You're now up to $19,135. Yes, 4 times the original number!

See, people want the last kitchen. But at the first kitchen's price. And that just isn't going to happen. Even with an incredible value like Omega Full Access--or with any RTA line. You are in control of your pricing. You are! You CAN hit your budget number. For instance, just adding the toekick, crown, and a touch up kit to the first kitchen with 30" uppers only adds up to $5019. And it really isn't much worse in function than the 19K one. The layout is what it is.

Now, add an island, and you've doubled the function because you've created more workspace, and if you do a simple island, you may not add more than 3K to the total. If this were a real kitchen, that's totally what I would recommend over adding all of those decorative details that cost money. Use your money to create function.

So, it's 7 pm Central time, I've been here since 7:30 a.m., and I'm wrapping up for the day. Another long one tomorrow!

Thank you! Incredible valuable.

Hmmm ... it is hard without comparing exact apples to apples. But my kitchen layout is fairly close to that one, except for specific sizing and getting rid of most of the wall of uppers near the fridge and the fridge enclosure. Two 29"/15"deep uppers with two stacked windows units above. One 14.5" upper at 13" deep and the matching stacked window unit.

All shaker.

Being able to change sizes was important to fit my 120" by 74" L shape stuck between two doors.

Base cabs: 9.5" three drawer, 36" apron front sink base bumped out 2 extra inches, 11" 2 drawer 1 door, 36" corner unit, and 7" slim cabinet. The detailed drawer fronts where possible. Finished end pieces, 2-piece crown molding, valance, toe kick space built into cabinet though I'm just going to buy the actual trim locally. Matching wood was just too matchy matchy for me.

It was $5500 ish from Barker's. All in clear finished walnut exteriors. I'm fairly certain they'll be really pretty from all the videos and pictures I sought out. I think it was a decent value.

Then I also have about 55" of 80" high pantry and pantry/microwave cases from IKEA. And 66" of a sort of custom glass cabinet/dry sink shape made all of uppers. kind of hard to describe. You'll see it eventually in my reveal, I'm sure. Some trim included.That was about $3500. I always wanted IKEA for that stuff, I love how customizable their pantry spaces and drawers are. Would have been a lot less if my husband hadn't really liked the birch doors.

I put together 9 IKEA cabs last week ... not really a big deal. I watched a lot of Say Yes to the Dress and Property Brothers with a smattering of Mystery Diagnosis. We hung them over the weekend, but are still working on innards and doors. A few tense moments ... apparently studs that have been holding up the central beam of a two story house for 35 years can get a little dense and hard to drive screws into ... But nothing that complicated.

Maybe a little tough on my wrists since all I used was a screwdriver... and my husband was irritated when I measured the wrong spot to put one of the suspension rails.

I'll look forward to my Barker's cabinets coming in ... I've watched the videos on how to put them together and I'm sure I'll have more Property Brothers waiting or maybe Rehab Addict this time.

I think it is great that there are quality lines like Omega -- per what you've said -- out there. I'm sure it fits some people's needs and wants perfectly. The more affordable good options out there, the better. That means more people getting nice kitchens.

What I really hate is how many people are spending a lot more for the same or less quality at the big box stores. Or on iffier Chinese imports)\. And they probably think they are saving a lot of money.

If I had gone with my original plan of unfinished + much cheaper IKEA door combo, my total would probably have been less than 5k. I did spend more on some luxuries but we plan to use this kitchen for decades. I want to be proud for a long, long time even if it'll never be as big as some kitchens. No one local gave me anything less than 12k unless it was for something way off what I wanted.

Our Barker cabs are on order. We got Dover White, $9 upgrade per door different style on perimeter "L" shape kitchen area.

24" drawer base, 36" sink base, 18" Double trash pullout, 21" drawer base, (2) 11.5" drawer bases, 33" drawer base, (2) 30" x 42" wall cabinets, 18" wall cabinet, and (2) unfinished 36" drawer bases we'll paint for island. Also frig surround and cab above Dover White. After discount $7,335. No shipping cost.

Still haven't found the time to run through the Barker's on the 10x10 kitchen, but did make it down to the shop that is selling Omega. To my surprise, they do carry bamboo cabinets in several colors. They only offer them vertically, though. I was particularly impressed with the paint finishes. They had a grayish green and white kitchen display set up in regular Omega - and it was beautiful, I gotta say. It's been there several years and seemed to be wearing extremely well in the showroom. The factory finish definitely seemed more durable than the Barker sample doors I received last year. They had a frameless stained kitchen set up in Woodmode - also beautiful.

I've been on-line researching them a bit. People seem extremely mixed in their reviews - they either have had a great experience with Omega or an awful one. Not much middle ground. And, it seemed like maybe problems had creeped up in the brand over the past 1-2 years? The dealers give them high marks across the board when they are reviewing, though not necessarily the owners.

In browsing the Omega website, the thing I kinda fell for are these glide doors... They don't just seem a whimsical indulgence in my small U. I might have to do a little post about them...

live_wire_oak , I agree with 77papillon77 , can I just work with you and order Omega cabinets through you? My local building store that carries Omega cabinets is in-between kitchen people, and I'd rather go with you anyways since you are so knowledgeable. I can't figure out how to message you though.

I have read this entire thread...I am still dancing on the live wire and not sure if we should jump in to RTA, IKEA or the vast many online options! I want white shaker, full overlay, I do want 5 piece drawer fronts. Soft close, toe kick, simple crown molding yadda yadda yadda. We need 11 cabinets I have quotes ranging from 15k to 2k it is crazy overwhelming. We are capable to do the assembly and install. Where is the best bang for my buck? Ikea, RTAstore, CabinetsmadeEZ, Omega, Barker? Not sure why i cannot upload my layout photos :/

The cabinets sizes

Wall 36"

1 Wall 21"W x 36"H

2 Wall 24"W x 36"H

1 Wall 33"W x 36"H

1 Wall 30"W x 15"H

1 Wall Bridge 36"W x 18"H

1 Base 24"W

1 Base 36"W

1 Sinkbase 36"W

1 Three Drawerbase 18"W

1 Three Drawerbase 21"W

Imorast, for what it is worth, we went ahead with Barker and are very pleased with the outcome. We ended up with 26 cabinets and my husband and I put them together in a weekend and my father in law helped us install in another weekend. Good luck with your decision!

lmorast, I went with Barker because I needed odd non standard sizes to eke out more space in my kitchen (like 17.25 W and 34T type things). It was the best choice for me based on the non standard size requirements. I'm pleased with the construction and assembly and I like the all (non chinese) plywood sides, Blum hardware and heavy doors - I upgraded to all wood doors (no MDF). It's not perfect and it's not high end but I was able to get exactly what I needed. If you can make it with standard sizes you may get a good deal elsewhere.

@live_wire_oak - I saw your post about Omega above. Do you still sell this brand? Would love to chat with you about it. Thanks!

No, I no longer deal with Dynasty. Ive moved on from that shop. There are plenty of other dealers though. And the best deals will always be found by talking to people in person in brick and mortar stores. Not online. Find a good local designer and have them help you with your project. :-)

Thanks @live_wire_oak! Appreciate you getting back to me. I ended up getting a quote for Omega from a local dealer and they came back double the cost of Barker cabinets. I'll probably just go that direction.

If you have decided to go the RTA route, check Scherr's Cabinets, too. I was very happy with my RTA cabinets. They have real customer service, too. If you fill out the form and send them your specs, they will work up a quote. They are a custom cabinet manufacturer. So, you will get the cabinets you want using the materials you want with the features you want in the finish that you want and you get to speak to a real person if you have a question.

If your price is double, I have doubts if there is an apples to apples comparison happening.

First, is the quote in the Full Access line? Omega Custom Framed cabinets will not be price comparable to Full Access. That is the fully custom division, with a price to match he possibilities.

Second, did you just have them do a box to box comparison, via a list of components, or were they free to design the space with all of the needed side cover panels, molding pieces, and other required finishing touches? If they gave you a COMPLETE designed quote, and your Barker quote is lacking in the needed accessory parts, then that is not a true comparison. Accessory parts and pieces can easily add 30% to a quote from either company.

Third, are you comparing the single color available finished cabinet to the multiple choices of standard finished cabinet? Not unfinished to finished. Or standard finish color to an upgraded finish color, like with a glaze or distressing. Comparing unfinished and unassembled to finished and assembled is no where near apples to apples.

Although I no longer work with the line, I still find them an incredible value for someone who wants frameless cabinets but doesn't want the price of the Euro imports. Not to say that they are cheap, as no quality frameless line will be. Frameless is usually more expensive in the US than framed, simply because it is not readily available or "standard".

Hi Live_wire_oak, do you still create kitchen layouts? I really need help and would love to connect!

Wouldn't the reason that Omega is perhaps double the cost of Barker is because of the fee the kitchen designer/local dealer charges? The quote Live_wire_oak worked up did not include his own fee if he was doing it for a customer.