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Please help see photos of kerdiboard and swanstone pan

9 years ago

what is your advice,please, regarding these photos? Installer is tiling tomorrow over the kerdi board. How does his work look?

Comments (41)

  • PRO
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    He's not nearly finished. See the 8:00 mark. All those fasteners and penetrations have to have Kerdi-Band installed. Tile is not waterproofing.

    How does his work look? Awful.

  • 9 years ago

    Do you feel that when he does kerdi seal and band that should correct the issues? Thank you

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  • 9 years ago

    Also, his fasteners are all at varying distances apart.

  • 9 years ago

    Another issue is that the K board is behind the pan's flange in first pic.

    This is really bad. That wall needs to be removed and the boards shimmed out to met the flange like in the other pics.

    Ditto what Joe said about the fasteners needing waterproofing, and additionally - the corners and horizontal joints need kerdi band water proofing.

    Plus, the joint between the k board and the flanges needs waterproofing with Kerdi fix to the flange, unmodified mortar on the k board and then strip of of Kerdi band.

    YOU ARE NOT READY for tile .

    This link will show how the system is designed to to together

    Kerdi board install details.

  • 9 years ago

    Thanks for that info. He may not be at that step yet, he said he will tile today. We knew that 1st corner was wrong. Also, for my grab bar he said he put plywood in. I specifically asked him for blocking there so I will ask him to remove that panel and place blocking

  • 9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    He's not ready for tile today if those details are not done, and the mortar and Kerdi fix used for those needs 24hrs to cure before tiling over them.

    DO NOT let him tile today !

  • 9 years ago

    Thanks so much. I will do as you say

  • 9 years ago

    Put a stop to this NOW befoe you get further down the road.

  • PRO
    9 years ago

    "How does his work look?"

    Looks like he has never installed it before. Looks rough. Incomplete. Sloppy.

    KerdiBoard wicks water through the paper layer under the orange stuff that looks like Kerdi but is not. If that gets wet the Kerdi Board gets weaker.

    It does not look like any blocking was used at all. There is no kerdi band showing in these pictures.

    A train wreck in the making.

    Good Luck

  • 9 years ago

    I spoke w Schluter rep sent photos and she agrees needs to come out, work is sloppy, installer is arguing big time now wants me to speak w owner of company doing the work

  • 9 years ago

    They left the job--walked out I paid 2/3 of cost so far.Owner of company said they are done,HElp

  • PRO
    9 years ago

    OMG - That is so wrong.

    Good for you for checking. Looks like they used 3/8" Kerdi Board. Kerdi Board is such a crappy product anyway it needs the walls to be perfect. The installation to be perfect. The banding to be perfect. And then the tile and grout to give it strength. With 16" centers the deflection on 1/2" board is too much by my books. What is the wall framing set at? 16" centers? 12" 24"

    For Kerdi Board you are best to use 12" centers or less.....

    You got to ask yourself why you would use a shower backer board that you need to worry about getting wet. I saw a guy the other day loading some from Home Depot inside his truck. It was raining outside.

  • PRO
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    With some solid blocking. Wonder Board Lite and better waterproofing you can do a much better job the next time round.

    When you find a new tile guy. Ask him what he is going to do about the tile to wall transition. Clearly the pan does not fit the space perfectly and the tile on the left wall is going to need a good 1/2" of thin-set just to clear the bottom lip.

    This will most likely be a modified thin-set and that is not allowed for use on or over the kerdi Board.

    Did you see the other Kerdi discussion (BATHROOM TILE HELP NEW CONSTRUCTION) with the weeping wicking water issue? I suggest studying up on capillary breaks and nicer tile to drywall transitions. You might kill two birds with one stone. Get a better plan before pushing forward.

  • 9 years ago

    John, we are at 16" on center. Next step is the local Schluter rep will most likely recommend another installer unless my husband will want to do the Wonder Board himself and then tile, but the choice will be his. I really appreciate all the advice.

  • PRO
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    16" is just too wide for 1/2" Kerdi Board in my opinion.

    What if you slip in the shower? Try pressing on the Kerdi Board now. Place a level across it and press light - not too hard. Can you make the kerdi Board press in more than 1/4"? I bet you can.

    If you are going to re-use the Kerdi Board add in some solid blocking so there is less chance of flexing the board. Don't stand or kneel on any pieces - you will crush them!

    Check out this blog post of mine covering blocking for cement board.


    This was a drawing I made for a client in the US building a steam shower. The extra blocking up high was for the ceiling tie in. The center blocking is good for future grab bars but also beefs up the walls if someone slips or "Gets Busy" up against that wall.

    Hope this helps.

    I think you should read this idea book as well.


  • PRO
    9 years ago

    "They left the job--walked out I paid 2/3 of cost so far.Owner of company said they are done,HElp"

    Tell him he has 24 hours to refund all your money or you will post these pictures, the manufacturer's installation instructions, and the 2/3 payment all over the internet.

    He'll come around. Either that or his business skills are as poor as his tile substrate building ability.

  • 9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I just don't understand the ethic behind taking a premium product and installing it in such a haphazard fashion.

    Since the work relationship has blown up, here's my opinion. And it's just that, an opinion. So this is a "worst case scenario" post. Heck you'll probably have things all settled nice before I'm done typing this post. lol

    Get in touch with Schluter support again. If you can contact the same rep as before, that'd help. Before you contact them, have an email drafted. Photos included.

    Start with a basic description of the job (residential shower, kerdi board over stud-framed wall with Swanstone pan). Have wide view photo showing the entire shower. Include close-ups as you have done.

    Tell them where you are now: That the tilers want to tile over the work "as is". No added fasteners. No added kerdi/k-band over the seams or in the corners. No added kerdi/k-band over the board/flange.

    Include that the pan's flange projects proud, into the shower space, beyond the face of the kerdi board.

    Have Schluter reply to your email in writing. Tell them you need a detailed reply in writing. Have them state what is deficient:
    1) The number and location of fasteners.
    2) The seams are not banded.
    3) The flange projects proud of the board.
    4) The flange isn't sealed.
    5) etc, etc

    If the rep agrees, have the rep include the following:

    6) That "as is", installation does not follow or meet the manufacturer's criteria for proper use of the product.

    7) That the product needs to be removed/reinstalled IAW Schluter's installation instructions.

    8) That if the work is continued and the product is used as is, will not be warranted.

    Moving on: You can write things as you wish. I prefer to number items as I did above, for example, numbers 1) through 8). That makes it easier for the person responding to NOT skip over any of your points that you feel need to be addressed. You're asking eight questions. You're expecting eight answers.

    When you get your reply from Schluter, then you can move forward with the contractor.

    Again, more opinion from me.

    Compose a letter to your contractor. Be nice. Be pleasant. Be brief. It's a letter where you are "looking to move forward with this project" type of letter.

    Include the list of deficiencies pointed out by Schluter Technical support. Doesn't need to be verbose. Just hit them with a list of the facts. Include that if the installation continues "as is", it will be in violation of the manufacturer's guidance and the installation will not be warranted by the manufacturer. Include the manufacturer's recommendation that the work be redone.

    I'd also look up the Swanstone pan installation instructions. They probably specifiy that the face of the Kerdi board be proud of the face of the swanstone flange. Here's a quick hit, there might be better instructions out there:

    swan pan

    The thing is, you can even contact Swan tech support and send them a photo of the board and flange, and get an opinion from them. Have them state in writing that the pan is not installed IAW their technical instructions.

    Print out Schluter's installation instructions for a Kerdi Board shower. Include them as an attachment.

    Print out Swan's installation instructions. Include them as an attachment.

    Send it certified mail, return receipt requested.

    Then wait.

    If you hear nothing with five business days, send them another package, again certified, return receipt requested. Same package, but with a new cover letter. In the cover letter simply include that you send a package on April XXth. You received no reply. Tell them to reply to this letter within five business days.

    Things will either move forward, or they won't.

    You've given them a chance for remediation. That's always important. You've sent them documentation that their installation is substandard. You've given them ample opportunity to reply to you. You've insured they received your letters because of the CMRRR.

    You can move forward as you see fit.

    You can work things out with these guys and move forward.

    You can hire another contractor.

    Take these guys to small claims court to recover as much of your lost costs as you can.

    A very lengthy post. Sorry for rambling on. And what I wrote is again, an opinion. It's information you can use, embrace, or disregard. It's really guidance for you to be well-armed for moving this project forward, regardless of which path your project goes down.

    Proper documentation, citing the facts, certified mail, and civility all go a long way when it comes to settling disputes.

    Good luck!

  • 9 years ago

    Owner just called me back and is sending over a Bostik/ Schluter rep. I'll see what he says. He certainly should not say the work is good. Owner also offered a different installer so they can continue the job. It will all hinge on what this guy says, whether I continue w them or not.

    John, I didn't know about the 16" not good for this. Oh dear, now if I continue w them I will have another request---

  • 9 years ago

    My guy used a Wedi system which I believe is similar to what you're using. This isn't the best pic, but the cuts he made for my shower handle and head were much tighter. I don't recall seeing any gaps or uneven areas like your pictures show. I sure hope everything turns out okay for you.

    This is what it looked like before tile went on the walls.

  • PRO
    9 years ago

    16" stud spacing is ok for the 1/2" kerdi board but not thinner board.

    The schluter web site has excellent installation videos. After viewing you'll have a much better understanding of the process and will be able to spot an improper installation.

    Some guys just don't like reading or following instructions.

  • 9 years ago

    Quick cut and paste with highlights from the installation handbook. Consider having these on hand when the rep shows up.

  • 9 years ago

    My apologies. I thought they'd show up as clickable links instead of as fully displayed jpgs.

  • 9 years ago

    Update. Yes, I did look at video etc. Have been trying all along to educate myself in process.Thanks Here is what rep from Bostik Schluter said. HE is the guy they call for claims, but when I spoke w the rep for our area, he said he knows the guy & that he is good. According to him the job is not complete, there will be 5in patch over every fastener. All seams will get kerdi band, on top of band, the white part of flange will get K fix, k band around base will attach to board w thinset, attach to flange w k fix. Yes, cuts could be neater. Re lower corner no concern for the fasteners that are there, then asked what size tile. 9X18 so he said that's good but if it was 2in tile could be a problem, then he said something to sort of mitigate that concern. So now the base will have no issue? I replied tile isn't waterproof but he seems to think the band and fix solves all those issues. He said have the installer put in more fasteners, extras won't be a problem. The last thing he said to me was that I was the most educated, he had seen since the 70's. What? I find that hard to believe or maybe not if just deals w claims & I'm trying to head it off at the pass. I called Schluter rep at the 800 # & sent the photos first thing even before installers came and have kept her up to date. She continues to say that the inside corners are a problem, the gap requirement is 1/4 in but what she sees is that gap is not consistent so Schluter won't say yes to that but that the rep for our area will have the final word re warranty. She has been most helpful. The area rep called me and will most likely come to the house next week to look, the rep that was here took pictures & is sending them to this area rep. To sum, the Bostik rep was knowledgeable but I really feel that he wanted to side w installer and the Schluter phone rep said that he is a distributor. I will trust our area rep & the cooperation between him & Schluter because they will warrant it. And there is no denying the job is sloppy so I cannot trust the installer going forward. YEs, I did criticize his work and he then threw sarcasm at me, so all in all not good

  • PRO
    9 years ago


    The great thing about Mongo's post is that it keeps you from arguing with your contractor and forces him to argue with Schluter. It isn't like you're wanting it done the way your old Uncle Bill always did it. You want it done per manufacturer's installation specifications, nothing more and nothing less.

  • 9 years ago

    Yes, and that is what I said to them, that it is not done acc to manuf specs. Company just called back and everyone is waiting to hear from the local rep and company asked me who I spoke w at Schluter, so of course I told her. Funny how it seems when consumer tries to educate themselves that some pros seem to take offense. Again, I appreciate all the advice. I will update when I hear back, hopefully Mon

  • PRO
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Good Luck Maggie.

    Did you try pressing the Kerdi Board?

    Instead of asking the rep if 16" centers is fine for Kerdi Board ask them if 12" centers will make the wall stronger. Once you see how little force it takes to bend your foam backer board you might ask for more back framing and blocking.

    Also the fix at the bottom should have some blocking behind it. Schluter requires pretty much nothing for their products. Only that their product be installed perfectly. With no blocking on the bottom the first tile might stress the Kerdi Band seam. Then what? Installer error.

    I would add the blocking - switch out the Kerdi Board to Wonder Board Lite and then continue with Kerdi if you must. Did you pick the thin-set? Is that OK for your tile choice? Did you ask the rep what they recommend? And then cross reference that with what the tile person wants.

    Last year I food tested three Kerdi Board shower niches.

    My Private Improper Test: Silly me I filled it with water

    Of the three I flood test two leaked. Now I learned later that filling them up to the top was wrong and that the proper test involves far less water, tile and grout so my test was un scientific to a supplier or testing facility. But it did prove to me that 66.6% of tested Kerdi Board niches at my place leak. Many people get upset by this fact. I get upset that the box they came in says 100% waterproof.

    Cabot & Rowe here discovered the wicking affect years ago. he got one of the first sheets. Then the boys on John Bridge Dog Piled him for sharing the info. I tested the board back then as well and found it got noticeable weaker when wet. I took the board apart and found it uses paper as the "Special Reinforcing Layer". I found that the orange stuff is not Kerdi. You might understand why I dislike the product so much.

    But that was part of it. getting called from Schluter's Head Tech was the icing on the cake. I was told I should be careful what I say online. So now I am. I'm carefully explain that my improper tests failed.

    Now you can believe everything you read or you can simple get a level - place it across the board. And press with your hand. I bet with your knuckle and little force you can press a huge dent into the board as well.

  • 9 years ago

    John, Yes I called Florida Tile and they said to use modified thinset, Schluter says unmodified and when I asked S rep he said for use of the Kerdi that they trump what tile manuf says. Tile will continue outside of the shower & over the drywall can use modified. As I understand it they will use Bostik Ditra Set. As I researched Ditra & spoke w Bostik it is unmodified but can be used as a modified thinset w the addition of Admix. Ditra Mat has been installed on floor outside of shower so I asked the installer as he was laying it, what kind of thinset are you using & he said modified which is correct for over plywood and when they tile over it they must use unmodified as I learned. Oh, when the company's rep was here he said they used Reflex thinset on the plywood floor which I see is another Bostik product. On another side note when installer was putting screws in plywood floor I asked him what are you using reply was drywall screws. I asked him please remove those and use corrosion resistant subfloor screws, he never heard of that, so he told me he put in galvinized

  • PRO
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Sounds like everything else is going right. I have never heard of galvanized screws so perhaps he nailed the subfloor down. Preparing a subfloor is a critical step and what is done at your place is done. Only way to check is to rip it out.

    Make sure you allow for expansion in the tile install.


  • 9 years ago

    Yes, I knew to look for those but in 1 area his cut is so uneven the expansion joint is barely there. I did not hear him nail anything down.

  • PRO
    9 years ago

    We could get more technical about deflection on vertical surfaces , but I think it will deviate the essence of the thread which we are writing on .

    Minor grout cracking could be observed on some vertical KB & tile installation , without the help of a 250 lbs electrician standing on it. Why , still have to be answered , but .......

    If asked Schluter should provide proper procedures to be respected for a specific project , which this thread -- OP inquire -- is all about , IMO . Not at all hard to do if one of their products -- KB -- is involved as being used as substrate and waterproofing material for a tiled wall , including tying it the right way with the vanity's CT.

  • 9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago


    Have you tile testers measured the deflection of hardi backer, dens shield, permabase , wonderboard, wedi, durock, hydroban board ect... between 16" and 12" on center framing? What about plain ol drywall with kerdi or durock shower membrane thinsetted to it.

    What were the values?

    What was the standard for minimum acceptable deflection?

    Who set that standard?

    How often is your test equipment calibrated?

    How do any of those products' values compare with a good old fashioned mud wall's test results?

    And finally, where does cost and ease/speed of install , and overall cycle time of a given substrate type factor into the discussion?

    What if you can't even buy a particular product like wedi, or hydroban board where you live or find a tile guy that can pull a mud wall let alone know what one is anymore ?

    All of this will influence what is the "best" wall backer for your tile shower.

  • PRO
    9 years ago

    Roberto when did it become "Fast was good" "Quicker was better" it seems today this is what people sell. How light it is. How quick it goes up. Speed. Save money. Board faster. But have these salespeople ever tried removing a tile from KB? I bet not.

    At least with cement board you can bang off a tile if you need to in a repair scenario. You can place it in the truck when it's raining and it will not be harmed by water. Image protecting backer board from rain for a shower build.... Insane. It sounds ridiculus but that is what the guy was doing. Loading it in his truck (inside the cab)

  • PRO
    9 years ago

    $800 worth of K board in my truck and im seeing clouds comin in , I can see the sweat beading off my head now...
    at least with propanel and wedi you can leave it in the swimming pool . a few birds may make a home on top of it but that can be hosed off. LOL

  • 9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    All of these products you're using fall into the cheaper and faster catagory !

    Otherwise you would be doing mud walls for all of your showers because it is the type of wall that has the least deflection you fellas are so concerned about.

    I mean really, are you guys too young to remember that your beloved cement board was the cheaper faster LIGHTER alternative to mud waaaaay back when.

    And your forbearers were using the same arguments about it: it bends really easy, it's cheap- "ya don't want that crap" , they sell it at Home Depot and nothing hood comes from there, and my favorite - it wicks up moisture from the mud pan !

    My take is all this stuff is just another product and will work well enough to keep a shower waterproof and standing for 20 years just like cement board was decades ago.

    Now, some of these systems aren't for everybody - especially contractors looking to grow a business , because some of these products aren't available in all markets, require techniques that some setters don't like to use , are more $$$, and other things that hinder standardization and impede growth.

    Reminds me of a used car salesman tang bad mouths a particular brand of car or truck because he doesn't have one to sell which ultimately affects his wallet.

  • PRO
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Xedos wrote : ''

    All of these products you're using fall into the cheaper and faster catagory !

    Otherwise you would be doing mud walls for all of your showers
    because it is the type of wall that has the least deflection you fellas
    are so concerned about.

    I mean really, are you guys are too young to remember that your
    beloved cement board was the cheaper faster LIGHTER alternative to mud
    waaaaay back when.

    And your forbearers were using the same arguments about it: it bends
    really easy, it's cheap- "ya don't want that crap" , they sell it at
    Home Depot and nothing hood comes from there, and my favorite - it
    wicks up moisture from the mud pan !

    My take is all this stuff is just another product and will work well
    enough to keep a shower waterproof and standing for 20 years just like
    cement board was decades ago.

    Now, some of these systems aren't for everybody - especially
    contractors looking to grow a business , because some of these products
    aren't available in all markets, require techniques that some setters
    don't like to use , are more $$$, and other things that hinder
    standardization and impede growth.

    Reminds me of a used car salesman tang bad mouths a particular brand
    of car or truck because he doesn't have one to sell which ultimately
    affects his wallet.

    '' End quote .

    Looks to me that the applications for CBU's , including exterior ones in combination with the most used in commercial applications , are what makes a reliable product . Strength , rigidity , water resistance , floor applications , to name few , are just some of the qualities that falls into the reliable category .

    It is funny to call us young and not really making the difference in between a mud wall and a CBU . May I remind you that bad craftsmanship was NOT intended -- out of plumb , level or square -- by using CBU's , but removing an additional weight of the wood structure , which most residential houses are build from in nowadays . Some tile mechanics and geographical areas are still using it , but it is looking like it is a dying art . Similar can be said for the demand of mud floors , which fall into the same category with the mud walls -- dying art --.

    There are other products out there which can be used , instead of the KB .

    LUXX Elements is another product which can considered as reliable substrate backer for a wall application in tiled surfaces , but some of us do not consider it . It doesn't mean that we don't pay attention to new evolving technologies , materials and trends of the industry .

    An example of the Luxx BB

    And after 4 days of submerging it

    At last , none of us were talking about a bad mouth -- so easy to hide behind an anonymous username -- , but if we have different opinions at least you could respect that .

    This thread is about proper procedures to be applied in the field and it looks like even with a plethora of recommendations from mfg , the opposite is still happening . Nothing to do with old vs. young technology , application , ways of doing , tools , materials , etc.

  • PRO
    9 years ago

    "....but some of us do not consider it . It doesn't mean that we don't pay attention to new evolving technologies , materials and trends of the industry ...."

    As always Roberto - over the top testing. I love it. It's true I do not consider anything build from foam an option. When I did my Kerdi Board testing years back I found that the product once wet was so weak.

    I also researched years ago the benefits of solid backer panels in our homes like drywall in relation to earthquake codes. Also, I have read online somewhere where a manufacture failed a claim because the wall beneath the bathroom had no drywall on it. When your home is designed to need the strength of drywall to meet sysmic requirements adding a foam product into the mix surely can not help this out.

    The fact that Kerdi Board uses paper to make it stiff is hilarious to me. A total and utter joke. The Luxe product looks different but can you knell on it? Can you remove a tile from it? I would think not that easy.

    Thanks for sharing your research. If anyone can make it work I'm sure it's you. What is your opinion on wall framing measurements? Is 16" Ok with that board?

  • PRO
    9 years ago

    I hear you , John . When everything counts , including the structure of a wall or floor , you do not want to second guess . I did have a discussion on a different forum , MH forum which no longer is running , about the structure of a house in which in todays configuration structural engineers are considering the drywall as part of it , meaning they do the calculations with the drywall included into the structure . At that time , we were just starting to analyze the ramifications of it , but concluded that it is best to leave the drywall out of it , meaning the structure should be calculated without the rest attached to it . For sure higher numbers will result with the drywall attach to it , but I don't see it working in all of the applications , especially when the screwing schedule is not respected . I usually do something like this on a painted drywall

    but if the drywall is part of the structural calculations , then KB will not cut it .

    The Lux panel is more sturdy then the KB and I think it can be applied on 16'' center , but I usually do corners, joints and change of planes reinforcements , so I wouldn't know how it survives without it .

    Luxx elements do have quite few shower and steam ready to use products , but I am sure denting is quite easily obtained on styrofoam floor products .

  • 9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    My point was not whether you are young, old or middle aged - or personally like orange styrofoam, mud, blue covered drywall , or cement board covered with grey, orange, or green sheet membranes, or red, green or blue liquid membranes.

    It's that I think you guys are a tad bit dismissive of products other people may choose simply because YOU don't like like them when they otherwise work just fine when properly installed. I absolutely respect your opinions about things you like yo use. But , I'm a bit put off when you dismiss other products with straw arguments when the products work if used as intended and have companies that stand behind them.

    I was also pointing out that many of your arguments for not using said products were the very same arguments that were used by a previous generation for the exact same product many of you now find the bees knees.

    all I'm saying is to not be so dismissive of some of these products simply because they don't meet YOUR needs or meet what you think is sensible. You see , if the naysaying crowd had had its way when cement board came out - we wouldn't even be having this conversation !

    p.s. no one said , nor do the terms of service here state , that only pros can dispense advice to masses , forbid homeowners from giving advice , or disagreeing with other homeowners OR pros' advice. So get over what my screen name is , and whether or not I'm a pro, amateur, homeowner, renter, 16 yr old kid in my parents basement , or a half senile octogenarian using public access at my local library.

    Oh, and that LUX board.........maybe I should tell everyone it stinks because you can't really buy it anywhere, the company has no real U.S. presence and if there was a problem who would back it up? Unscientific tests like a piece in a bucket remind me of a cooler I once saw that was made out of a cardboard box lined with John's favorite orange product. Worked a treat, but so what ? I'm not looking to go into the cooler business nor can I think of any building assemblies made out of cardboard that I'd ever need to waterproof.

  • 9 years ago

    OP-are you still out there? Sorry you got thread jacked but I'd like to hear how this turned out? Did you get the install corrected?

    I noticed that they seem to be working around your tub but the tub does not seem to be very well protected, if you are still having work done it might be a good idea to have it protected a little better before you have another problem to worry about getting firex.

  • PRO
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago


    I really do not care if you choose the KB just because I don't like -- who said so ? -- , but I really do not consider it . You can preach how much you want and swear by it , but we wouldn't talk about it if the OP wouldn't have a problem with it's installation . To make matter worse , everyone attending the S course is '' qualified '' in installing theirs products. Go figure .

    Showers are not an easy task and demand lots of knowledge of the right steps , including an important one . FLOOD TEST . You probably have to thank John Whipple for his efforts in getting the attention of the big waterproofing manufacturers by including it in their recommendations . Do you know which one will be next ?

    You can also do your own search in finding the use of the EPS , like the Lux panels , by real pros , pioneers of the industry , if you know what I mean . Drinking only the Orange juice gets really old .