I use mix of grit, turface and perlite; sometimes turface and perlite and/or grit and perlite. I water succulents, while indoors, approx. once in two weeks or so. Outside, they get water from rain, and from me only if it doesn't rain for a while.

Btw, do you have photos of your plants?

Here's one picture...

The white rocks on top are decorative, not part of the mix. You can see the texture of the mix a bit around my zebra plant.

Also, what exactly is turface?

Turface is a type of calcined clay used primarily on baseball and other sports fields. It's very porous, and is the right particle size to make it ideal for use in gritty type potting mixes. It holds moisture well, but the larger particle size keeps the perched water table to a minimum. Perched water is the water that remains held between particles due to surface tension. The larger the particles, the less the surface tension, which is why the very small particle size of bagged, peat moss based soils can be detrimental to plant roots. With Turface though, you must add another substance that holds little to no water, because Turface holds too much water by itself. This is where the chicken grit comes it. It is about the same particle size, but is not porous, so it holds pretty much no water. With these two ingredients alone, you can adjust the moisture holding properties of your mix by changing the ratio of Turface to grit. Sounds like a lot, but it's really not if you're willing to put forth the effort.

Joe

Joe explained everything very well.
Your pots look good - judging from photos. Decorative rocks are good, many of us use them. From what I can see, maybe the bark is bit large & lots of it - not a terrible problem, just that particles work best if they are approx. same size. And don't include more than 1/3rd of bark, could be less.
There could be little transplant shock just after re-potting; give your plants some time, don't overwater, give as much light as possible and don't re-pot again if mostly gritty mix. Less you fuss with them better they will be.
Rina

Thanks, Joe, for the explanation — very clear, very helpful!

I have a couple more questions, if you don't mind : can small pebbles be substituted for grit ?

And are clay pellets similar to perlite...?

Small pebbles can indeed be substituted for the grit portion, so long as they are the correct size, which is between 1/16 and about 3/16". Some people use small aquarium gravel for their grit. As for the clay pellets, no, they aren't the same as perlite. Perlite is expanded volcanic rock, and very light in weight. Lots of people use it in various mixes, but I despise the stuff because a slight breeze blows any perlite that is loose out of pots, it crushes easily, and it floats. Clay pellets are just that.....clay. It is much heavier, and can vary in its porosity. More importantly, if it isn't fired at high temps, it can degrade when wet and turn to mush, which is baaaaad news in a potting mix.

Joe

I had no idea about clay pellets — I got some because a friend recommended them, telling me I didn't need any other medium mixed with those to pot a plant in, so I've given it a try; they've kept their form and, so far, my (guinea) plants seem to be doing okay... they're even growing flowers:

1. A couple of haworthias

2. This one has started growing a flower since I last took a picture of it

I have the feeling they aren't very appreciated among succulent lovers... perhaps because of that heat problem?

One more question, if you don't mind: as you don't like perlite, what do you use instead?

I didn't realize you meant hydroponic clay balls. Those are not really meant to use as potting mix, and are much larger than what is ideal. There's not enough surface area for lots of fine feeder roots to grow, and I would certainly think that growing anything taller will not have a solid anchor, and will fall over. To answer the question about what I use; I use a 50/50 mix of screened Turface and #2 cherry stone chicken grit, with the upper 1/2" or so mixed with red lava pebbles for aesthetic reasons.

Joe

Oh, okay... guess it answers my questions concerning these finer roots given the space trapped between the pellets... I might keep a guinea plant or two in these, to see how they'll do: I have to admit, these clay pellet seemed like a perfect solution not to overwater, which I am really afraid of — but let me explain...

I currently live in Senegal, West Africa, where people don't seem to know a lot about plants or how to care for them properly, even when it is their job. The nursery where I buy my plants uses a potting mix made of (from what I can see) two types of soil (one dark, one light) and twigs and woody fruits from she-oaks. Even the guy who owns the place (which is actually just an open garden with plants in pots) says the mix retains too much water and that he's losing some of succulents because they guy he's hired to take care of the plants and sell them to clients waters too often...

I've been to the most serious (if not only) garden center there is (which actually sells gardening related products more than plants) and asked about their bagged soils. All they have is universal potting soil which, I have discovered, is incredibly fine and retains too much water, even when I mix it with pebbles.

When I went back to the garden center and asked for a cactus or citrus mix, I was told that those who grew citrus trees bought and used that particular soil; I was then advised to cut it with dune sand for a ratio of 1:3 (and when I asked if they had some, I was told to go to any construction site and that for a dollar or two, I could probably go back home with a bucket)...

I might actually try to do that because I'm kind of getting desperate: they don't have perlite (and, no, they're probably not getting any anytime soon because it's not something that people know about here...). I didn't ask about turface because I have no idea how to say that in French — and I'm guessing that if they didn't suggest it as an alternative, it must be because they don't have any.

That's why those hydroponic clay pellets (which I am surprised they actually have) came to me as — at last — a solution to my potting mix problem... I'm actually a little upset it isn't — I love my plants and I don't want to kill them, whether it be by overwatering them or stressing them in a mix that just isn't right.

The thing is, I'm out of ideas and solutions — and shipping is not one I want to get to as I have heard that custom fees are ridiculously expensive in this country! So if anyone has anything to suggest as replacement to perlite and turface, please do share!

You can use crushed pumice, if you can find it. But I'm thinking you might not really need this mix in that climate, considering how warm it is there on the average. The twigs are probably used to prevent soil compaction more than anything. You're going to have to establish a watering routine that will factor in rapid evaporation due to heat and dry air. During the monsoon, just keep your plants out of the torrential rain so you can control their watering regime.

If you use the available soil, I'd only suggest adding many more holes to your pots and putting screens over them. Gravity will help you with the rest.

I hope this helps.

Pagan

I'll ask around about the pumice... I'd really like to have a mix without any soil given how fine the grains are (and how afraid I am of overwatering). I've found grit, both 1/16 and 3/16", as Joe mentioned — but I suppose that's not enough as potting...

I'm not at all familiar with how things are over there, so it's hard to advise on this. Turface isn't typically available through garden centers, but rather from athletic field and turf care places. A suitable alternative is certain types of floor dry products. I believe there it a sort of test to do on it to see if it'll maintain its form. Someone may be able to chime in on that. Another option I see is for you to bust up those clay balls and sift them to the proper size. It'll be labor intensive, but I think it would work. In the northern areas of the U.S., lava pebbles are non-existent, so I bought a large bag of the smallest lava rocks I could find, and I get the ole 3# hammer out and bust them up, then sift them. I love how they look in my mix, so I am willing to do the work. I have a feeling we can get you into a good mix, but you'll have to look around and see what might be available in your area, and maybe put in some hard work.

Joe

I don't mind the hard work, so long as it gets somewhere — if breaking down those clay balls will do the trick, I can do that! Shouldn't be that hard either (just long, maybe) as I have seen broken bits at the bottom of the bag...

Dumb question ahead: is sifting important?

And will I still need to add some type of grit?

Necessary hard work

Reading the discussion above will give you a clear idea of exactly how flexible you can be when composing this substrate. The principle behind it can be boiled down to : size matters.

Good luck!

Pagan

I have to wonder why we are telling Six Silver s/he needs to change his/her soil mix when the plants look perfectly happy and are blooming in the hydrophonic clay balls.... this substrate appears to be working quite well under his/her conditions.. Unless you live in a very windy area or move your plants around a lot, I would not worry about stability in this substrate..

happy growing,

Breton

Sifting is important to get rid of dust. Even if you were to try adding the 'construction' sand, sift it so only larger particles remain.
Turface should be available under that name. You could try to e mail them to find out if their product is available where you live - they may have distributor? -
Turface-click here

Kitty litter is often used; this site has lots of info about it - kitty litter - click here

Can you find chicken grit? I get it from farm supply stores. Gravel (or granite chips) about size of aquarium gravel is suitable (even aquarium gravel could be used-it is smooth, but will help. I have used it before I found chicken grit).

If you have to use mostly soil, do as Pagan suggested - add drainage holes; put piece of screen over them (drywall mesh could be used, or coffee filters) to prevent wash-out and keep pots on ground - contact with soil may help to wick excess water.

Rina

Why are we advising to change his/her soil? Short answer: because he/she asked. Personally, I like to help people grow things the best they can, and in order to do so, I believe they need to start with the optimal soil. Whether one is interested in doing that is up to them, but I'd think if they weren't, they wouldn't keep engaging in the conversation, so, I'll keep helping as long as he/she asks.

Follow the link provided by Pagan to get a plethora of good information. That will answer what you're actually trying to accomplish, how, and why. You can do a side by side experiment and keep a plant or two in the clay balls, but I'll garuntee you'll get better results by using a mix with a more ideal particle size.

Joe

I've been having problems accessing GardenWeb these last two, three days... very frustrating when I've been meaning to thank you all (and perhaps ask a few more questions)...!

Thank you, Breton, for wondering if should actually change my media from clay pellets to gritty mix if my plants do okay under my location's conditions — thank you for caring about whether I should engage in, perhaps, unnecessary hard work; after all, you're right: if my plants are doing okay, maybe I don't have have to change anything...

That said, I think I do; from what Joe, Rina and Pagan have been explaining, I have the feelings my plants could be happier in gritty mix — at least, I'm willing to give it a try and compare. What I know for certain is that I want to stop using soil as part of the media I use...

Thank you, Pagan, for the link to Al's explanations concerning what makes a good soil/media — I've learned new things (which I always love doing) and it has helped my comprehension a little better (I probably need to read it a few more times before everything sinks in).

Thank you, Joe and Rina, for coming up with all sorts of ideas and solutions to help me replace what I can't find locally — it is very frustrating not to have access to items and products at hand, whether locally or online (I've actually tried looking into this solution despite my initial reluctance... even that seems a little complicated — somehow, I can't wait for my next chance to travel and bring back what is much needed! But that may not happen in a while)...!

For now, I will try using busted clay balls mixed with grit, as you suggested, Joe.

I'll also give kitty litter a go, if I can find one that is appropriate (the one I tried — which was a cheap brand — dissolved when I added water... I'm guessing that is not what I want to use, right?), especially as the garden center is currently out of clay balls (and they don't know exactly when they'll be getting some more)...

...in the meantime, I guess I will have to do as you advised, Pagan, with the plants I have still potted in soil: establish a water routine and be extra careful! I had added 3/16" pebbles hoping it'd help, but from Al's explanation, I guess it's barely any helpful...

I do have another question, if you guys don't mind:

...it's crossed my mind that the media you use, Joe and Rina (mix of grit, perlite and/or turface), is a for of semi-hydroponics as there is no soil, the perlite and/or turface "storing" in the water instead... right...? (or did I totally not understand potting mix 101?)

Hi! This probably won't be very helpful but just thought I'll share.

I can't get turface here in Singapore, but i can find those clay balls in a range of sizes. I'm currently experimenting with a modified gritty mix of clay balls, granite and pine bark, all of same particle size. And I also have another pot of pure clay balls. It's been about 2 weeks since the repotting so I can't say anything at the moment but they've both been rooting well

I haven't really established a watering schedule, so what I do is that I have a plant-less pot with my gritty mix. I water it when I water my plants, before I water the next time, I empty out the plant-less pot and check if the mix is damp nearer to the bottom of the pot.

Btw those clay balls are called LECA or Hydroton. Hope it'll be easier for you to source them. Places selling hydroponics set ups usually carry them. Mine are about 3-5mm in diameter.

Help is help, and I'm always open to different advice, ideas, tips and solutions!
The LECA/Hydroton/clay balls available here (at least at the garden center — I haven't found them anywhere else) last came in different sizes... all in one bag. I suppose I could always sort them out...

I was counting on busting them, as Joe had suggested; I guess I could always spare the smaller ones... As for mixing them with grit, that was also part of the plan. I don't know if I can get pine bark and I didn't have the feeling it was necessary... could be even harmful... May I ask what it brings to your mix?

SixSilver

I use mix of Turface, chicken grit and perlite since these ingredients are very easily available to me. I was trying to use bark (as 'clasic' 1-1-1 mix recipe says), but can find only large, had ro cut/crush/break it, and also bags of it contain lots of sapwood I don't like to pick. I did buy reptibark which is very nice, but gets pricey if one has many plants. As I got to understand the reasoning behind this kind of mix, I realized that I can leave out bark and/or any other organic ingredients, and yes - many succulents in their native habitat grow in inorganic 'soil'. The drainage is excellent so is aeration. And - to me - it even looks nice.
Many ppl don't like perlite since it floats and is easily blown away, but I don't mind since I use top-dressing anyway (large pebbles/granite, or could be anything else) that keeps perlite in. It is very light, so it makes pot full of 'stones' little lighter. If you have store supplying hydroponics, they most likely carry it too. But I have many pots with just a Turface and chicken grit (Joe mentioned using same, and many others do too) & the plants are doing as well as in 3-ingredients mix.

fakechuchi summarized very well what the ingredients provide (above post).

Leca could be busted/crushed if it is large (I never tried but others did), and it is also light.

Rina

I find that the only positive thing the bark provides is less weight. Otherwise, everything else is a negative in my opinion. Not only is the pine bark fines difficult to find, but it is a pain to sift, and it becomes very hydrophobic if left to dry, meaning it repels water, making it difficult to wet again. It also breaks down over time, requiring you to dispose of the used mix unless you can separate the bark out somehow. Skipping the bark completely allows you to pretty much keep your mix forever, although sometimes you get some fine roots stuck to the Turface, but it's not too hard to seperate that out.

For your information too, you'll need to seriously consider what fertilizer you're using with a gritty type mix. I will only recommend the Foliage Pro 9-3-6, because it's what I use and have excellent success with it. It's the only fertilizer I know of that is complete, containing all of the nutrients needed, without having to add supplements. I get mine from Amazon, and while it seems pricey, it actually isn't because a quart of concentrate lasts me a couple of years.

Joe

Pagan,

Your description of the ingredients was right on, except for bark. Its water holding capacity is not the highest, but rather somewhere between Turface and granite, which is why it can easily be eliminated. Turface (or Floor Dry, LECA, etc) holds lots of water, while granite holds very little. So you can easily adjust the overall water retention by varying the ratio of just these two ingredients. Bark can easily be added because its moderate water retention will not significantly impact the overall water retention, but it brings no functional benefit to the soil.

I don't like using bark in my mix for the reasons Joe mentioned, but for some people it's a cheap filler that doesn't break down quickly.

-Chris

I've actually only used bark once, in my first batch of this substrate when I was starting to try it out. I also eventually did away with the bark because I want to be able to reuse it. It's also been simpler tweaking this mix by adjusting the pumice/turface content. Having said this, I've just repotted an adenium and a dorstenia growing in that first 5:1:1 version I made and the repti-bark in it has not actually broken down as much as I was expecting after two years. There were some fine particles but not much.

Pagan

Just in case you can't get FoliagePro fert and Miracle Gro is available, the good one to use is MG All purpose liquid 12-4-8 with micronutrients; it has right ratios. Don't bother with any 'specialized' ferts. Start fertigating with maybe 1/4 of recommended dose, increasing gradually.

I have to say, after reading what some of you have to say about bark and peat, generally speaking, I am even less convinced of its benefits... It was not really and is even less something I want to use in my mix — my aim is to have a completely inorganic, soil free media.

On the good news front, a friend of mine has offered to send me a bag of perlite! I know you're not keen about using perlite at all, Joe, but I have to say that given my limited alternatives (clay pellets being among the best but perhaps not better), I'm rather happy! I'll be using your tips, Rina, to avoid losing it to the wind or through the pots' holes!

I get (I think I do, at least) that gritty mix is all about controlling water retention and that the aim is to provide a well-drained, adequately aerated medium that prevents from overwatering... and that water retention is partly based on the components ability to absorb/store water, which sometimes increases or decreases according to the ratio of these absorbant components (at least, when one is a lot more present than the other)...

...that said, I am still clueless to the ratio of perlite to grit I should have...

...and whether I need to add crushed LECA (when — if — it becomes available again at the garden center) into the mix or whether it is optional...

Also — as dumb as this question is going to sound — how often should I/can I water my plants in this mix ? I mean, I do understand that this particular media is meant to prevent overwatering from happening... but does that mean I can water whenever I want without risking overwatering...?

About the fertilizer — I noticed the ones you mentionned (9-3-6 and 12-4-8) were at a 3/3 - 1/3 - 2/3 ratio... does that mean they are the same, just at stronger/weaker doses? If I find a fertilizer with a different ratio, how much of a difference will that make? And how often should I/can I fertilize my plants...?

Yes, 3-1-2 is the ratio that plants use nutrients, well, most do anyway. With that said, any higher multiples of those numbers are the same thing, but the concentrate is higher, so you'd be using less. As for how often to fertilize, well, all the time is what I do. Start low, say 1/4 strength or so for succulents, and just mix it in with your water every time. I use anywhere from 1/2 to full strength on my jades, depending on the season. The key is the fast draining mix, so excess fertilizer salts are flushed away.

As for the question about watering, you water when your plants need watering. The gritty type mixes are good for minimizing the risk of over watering, but if you water with reckless abandon, it is possible to over water. Start out by using a wood skewer or chop stick stuck in the mix, pull it out, and see if it's damp. If so, no need to water quite yet. Eventually you'll have things figured out based on time, weight, feel, etc.. I was a bit nervous when I first got into gritty mix, but I very quickly found that it's not at all hard to figure out, and that it holds more moisture than one would think, contrary to what the nay sayers were claiming.

The perlite thing will have to be answered by someone else, as you know, because I don't use it. I don't think it holds as much moisture as a calcined clay product though.

Joe

I'd also like to share a picture of what a peat based soil turns into. The picture below is what was left after removing all of the old soil from a jade I repotted. It's a thick muddy muck, which is why your plants will thank you for putting them and a mix with no "soil". A special thanks to my daughters for tolerating my use of their sandbox buckets for my potting needs.

Joe

I'm beginning to wonder how plants manage to grow in soil, seeing how bad it can get ;)

That said, the more I hear/read about mixes with soil and organic matter, the less inclined am I to use them... or get why other people would knowingly and deliberately use a medium that favors root rot...

I'll keep in mind that gritty mix doesn't mean I can water whenever, however I want. I'll probably use your tip, SaveMySucculents, about having a "blank grit pot" that I'll water at the same time I water my plants and check on every now and then.

Another question concerning fertilizer ratios, if you don't mind: what if they are 3-2-3 instead? How will it affect the plants? I'm asking because I remember seeing one that was 18-12-18. I think it was the only one with magnesium and micro-nutrients.

I really hope someone can help me with my "grit to perlite (and LECA?)" ratio as I can't seem to find anything on the internet... If I replace turface with crushed LECA (when — if — the garden center gets some again), should I then use the "grit to perlite to turface" ratio...?

re: perlite-- it doesn't hold any water, it just acts to provide aeration in soil (similar to the function of granite, i guess)

It's all about proper ratios of PNK and so on...I can't explain well, but you can read about it here:
fertilizers

Rina

Thank you, Rina, for the link! I'll re read it again a couple of times, just to make sure I get it (and remember it) well, although I do have to wonder, now, why any manufacturer would decided to make fertilizer that doesn't have the right ratios...

Thank you, also, for the link on using kitty litter in gritty mix! I'm still looking for one that meets the conditions but, hopefully, I'll find some!

That said, in case I don't, I have been researching the use of perlite as sole medium; I found an old and a very old thread on Garden web that both claim it is possible... so, I figure that in worst case scenario where I can't find any appropriate kitty litter and the LECA the garden center said it would soon get takes forever, I could grow my succulents in a mix of perlite and grit (to give it weight)... and some fertilizer...

...though the garden center doesn't seem to have that clearly is 3:1:2...

The two they suggested had percents, to begin with — 18% - 12% - 18% and 17% - 9% - 20%... any clue on how I should read those?

Ferts I already mentioned (like MG 12-4-8) is 3:1:2 ratio - I see this fert everywhere, would be surprised if you can't find it. It is more difficult to find FoliagePro 9.3.6 (exactly same ratio 3:1:2) - easier for you guys in USA.
Percentage is well explained in thread I linked, check it again.
I believe I mentioned that you can grow succulents in mix of only perlite and turface, or only perlite and grit..(.even in just pure grit or just pure turface). See 2 photos I posted at beginning of this thread; 1st pot is mix of grit, turface & perlite, second is just turface and perlite.

Rina

Sorry about that, Rina, I should have reread this thread more carefully — I saw you mixed turface, perlite and grit in another post, so I didn't think about checking your other posts concerning mixe...

As for fertilizer, all I can say is that very few people (if any?) seem to know much about plants, even in a garden center...

...so they don't have perlite, they don't have 3:1:2 fert and they still don't have LECA...

About the link, I did read it; but actually, I was getting confused between ratio and percents... it was only after reading it several times that I did get it. Sorry again and thank you for your patience :)

np - SixS

it took me many, many times and I still refer to it - by the time I get to end of post I don't remember what was the beginning, lol.

(no apology necessary, maybe I sounded bit short but wasn't meant that way ).

Don't be surprised if you can't get much good advice in stores, many of employees just work there, many are temps and part time. And I don't think they are trained to say to customer: this soil isn't the best...go to (wherever-other place) and buy xyz...

What you hear usually works well for short time and under condition greenhouse growers have by we don't. Automatized sprinklers, heat, ventilation and so on. Since they grow plants for short time and they want them to look best for fast sale, they 'push' plant's growth and blooming. Fertilizer may be used too early and/or too strong to achieve that. And they have to do it for as little $ as possible. Home growers want plant for a long ride, and their conditions are different. So it's important to improve anything we have control of, to supply what's best for the plant without going crazy...:-)

If one understands why certain ingredients are recommended - what their 'job' is, it would be easier to make own mix using what's available. Don't obsess about finding what's not available (or is very difficult to source) where you live. Perhaps you could find some other ingredient that would work as well. And there are ppl that grow succulents in peat or cocofiber or bagged potting soil and swear their plants do well. I would think that they adjusted their watering - feeding - light or other conditions including their time/involvement.

And there are others that don't mind if plants survive only months rather than years, and just replace them.

Rina

To the original poster: I don't think having soil in your mix is objectively bad. I've used a mix of 50% soil, 50% perlite or pumice with succulents for years. It works fine. Using clay pots is good because they help move water out of the soil. For watering, wait until the soil is completely dry...then wait another week. I measure soil moisture by picking up the pots and checking the weight. You get a feel for what a dry pot weighs after a while, but if you need help just fill an empty pot with your soil mix and keep it around as a reference.

The one downside of this mix is that after four or five years the soil will become compacted and you'll have to replace it. But with only a few plants that's not a big deal.

The biggest issue I see with using soil, even with a perlite mix, is how compacted the mix gets around the roots after a few years. I am seeing this issue now as I am transferring all my plants to a gritty mix. Sometimes the root ball is so hard its like concrete. I have to spend a considerable amount of time delicately breaking it apart. This will eventually impact the plant as the roots not only become compacted, but don't receive water during your waterings.

Perlite helps to aerate your mix so that this takes longer to happen, but it will eventually happen. Perlite does not however act in a way that enhances drainage, which I see as a common myth of its use.

If you prefer to use a soil/perlite mix, that's fine, you just need to understand that you will water it far less than with a gritty mix, and you have to be very specific about ensuring the entire pot is dry, not just the top inch or so. You also need to be able to realize when it's compacting so you can repot before it effects you plant (probably before 4 or 5 years, maybe 1 to 2 years or less in my experience). A plant in a good gritty mix can go years longer without a repot than a plant in a soil based mix.

-Erica

Erica is absolutely right. Adding perlite, or any other larger particle ingredient to an already poorly draining mix, such as a peat based mix, is similar to chunky peanut butter. There are larger particles of nuts in it, but it's still just as thick and creamy as regular peanut butter.

Joe

At small volumes of perlite that's true, but as you increase the percentage of perlite, it does improve the drainage. Think about it: at 75% perlite/25% soil, do you really think the mix will drain no better than potting mix straight from the bag?

Like many people, I started by succulents in straight potting mix and it was a disaster. But for the last 15 years I've been using 50/50 soil/perlite with about 130 potted cacti and succulents. It does have significantly better drainage and aeration than straight soil and my plants have done well. The main downside, as has been mentioned, is that it tends to compact over time. This has been more of a repotting issue than a plant health or growth issue though.

I'm not advocating one mix over another. I'm in the process of trying out Al's gritty mix right now in fact. I'm just saying that you can get perfectly good performance from a soil-based mix if you know what you're doing.

"Think about it: at 75% perlite/25% soil, do you really think the mix will drain no better than potting mix straight from the bag?"

You're looking at this from the perspective of improving a typical soil. And you are improving it to some extent. But we're looking at this from the perspective of maintaining a properly designed gritty soil. A gritty soil is designed such that there are no particles smaller than ~1/8", which virtually eliminates perched water, ensuring that the entire soil volume has air pockets, even immediately after watering. Adding any amount of fine material to such a soil inherently compromises this design.

While your 50/50 mix may work in your conditions, there is a big difference in the way it functions when compared to a gritty mix. A gritty mix will be much more versatile due to the consistently ideal proportion of air and water throughout the entire soil volume.

-Chris

Erica
Rock-hard, compacted soil around root ball is more than likely too much/all peat, I believe.
While any potting soil will eventually compact, it is peat that dries out to 'concrete'.

Even if there is some perlite in it. Some potting soils contain less of peat, some more; and many nursery grown plants are potted in peat only. Pls. correct me if wrong.

I use perlite in my mix, mainly to keep it lighter (chicken grit gets heavy...); I try to use as large as possible (I screen it), and I believe it does help with drainage and aeration - keeping space between particles.

Rina

Rina - I agree. The hardest root balls I have experienced contained mostly peat, but I have had similar experiences with a peat/perlite mix. Perhaps more perlite could have been added and that contributed to the compression.

I have gotten a few nursery grown plants that contained their fair share of perlite but those were few and far between. Unless someone there has an interest in succulents specifically they tend to treat them like any other plant.

Do you just use chicken grit and perlite or you have turface in the mix as well? It seems like turface is considerably lighter than granite. What I hate about perlite is how easily it gets crushed.

-Erica

Chris, I really don't have a dog in this fight. I'm experimenting with the gritty mix myself because with the number of plants I have, it would make repotting a lot easier and faster.

I'm just saying that there's more than one way to skin a cat. The point of the gritty mix is to create a mix that is better along some specific dimensions, two of them being a reduced perched water table and better aeration. I agree that it's better in those respects. However, that doesn't imply that perched water tables and aeration problems are inherent issues with every soil-based mix in every potted plant. I have 130 plants in pots and I don't have rot problems in any of them, and they're growing really well. Why do you think that is?

You're correct that the 50/50 mix does work in "my conditions" and that's kind of my point: the gritty mix is not a requirement for everyone. And thank goodness, because it's kind of a pain to pull it all together. Where I live it's fairly dry so we have better conditions for a soil-based mix than places where it's wet/humid. For people in drier climates who don't want the hassle of pulling all the ingredients together, I'd suggest they go 50/50 soil and perlite because it's easy and it works. If you lived in the midwest, east or a rainy part of the south, I think you get a bigger advantage out of the gritty mix.

Erica, I am sure that 'production line' plants are all treated pretty well same. Commercial growers don't really need to worry about plants for a long time so fast growth and/or blooming is most important.
I can get turface quite easily, so I am using it; either 50/50 turface+ chicken grit, or turface+chicken grit+perlite. I just about gave up on bark, not having much luck finding it (unless very large, or smaller contains way too much sapwood & still not small enough).
I am not sure about perlite being easily crushed, unless I step on it. Any that falls on floor gets crushed into dust, but in pots not. And to prevent it from flying around/floating to top, I always use topdressing (usually larger grade of chicken grit)

Rina

Sorry — again — Rina: I don't want you to think I was vexed by the fact I thought I might have vexed you — if that makes any sense — I've just been so busy I haven't been able to have a look at GardenWeb these last couple of days!

I'm glad I'm not the only one who didn't get everything straight the first time I read the post about fertilizers — I'm still reading it over, actually — because it's pretty thorough — but perhaprs, too thorough to remember it all...? ^^

I'll get there... eventually!

I'd like to keep my plants more than a couple of months; I've already lost quite a few, last year, and that discouraged me for a while... that's why I'm getting a little obsessed with trying to find what, apparently, is not available here, as you (very well) put it. You're right, though; perhaps I can find something different that can work...
As for the debate regarding the mix of perlite and soil (and the ratio needed to improve it), I'm to inexperienced to say much; but I do like your comparison to peanut butter, Joe :)

I always had a 'heavy hand' when it comes to watering and never really fertilized. So for me, learning about gritty mix was quite interesting. I did obsess at the beginning about getting exact ingredients including FoliagePro fertilizer. Couldn't find them easily.
Once I actually understood why gritty mix is recommended - I relaxed and started working with what was easily available. I was able to find turface, chicken grit, and perlite is available just about everywhere. I did buy some reptibark, but only once since it gets expensive for many plants. So I don't add bark any more, but use above ingredients. They are of just about same size, so I get aeration and drainage necessary. (On occasion -for some plants- I may throw in only handful of soil, but always less than 1/3rd.) I have used aquarium gravel too, the size is appropriate (and I got lots of it free on freecycle). Now, if I overwater, I see it immediately since excess water just runs
out. I just empty saucer/tray plants are sitting on and no problem with
overwatering.
Easy to get fert is MG 12-4-8 - proper ratio of NPK + micronutrients (I am just starting to fertilize succulents regularly - didn't do it before).
In summer, I keep all succulents outside. They get watered mostly when it rains, but if it gets too hot and without rain for a while, I just water them with watering can, using water collected in rain barrel.
I am not having 100% success with all plants - there are few that I am still trying to figure out - but that is happening mostly indoors (while overwintering). Over all, they all are happier outdoors - and when I ignore them somehow....
We all have some challenges - no outdoor space available...hard to find even basic ingredients...and so on. For me, it is mostly about light. Succulents have to go indoors usually by November (sometimes earlier) and they will probably will go out again in middle of May. That is loooong time with not enough sunlight. So I use supplemental lights: helps, but not enough. Just about all my plants are etoliated to some extend.
If I was living by the river - I probably would get some coarse sand & screen it, wash thoroughly and experiment with it in the mix. But I would not use fine sand. Pebbles are fine, but again - size matters.

I mentioned before that I use larger gravel or pebbles for top-dressing; keeps perlite from floating & being blown away, slows down squirrels from digging too much about my pots, and I like the look of it.
I would like very much to get some scoria - pumice, but so far didn't find it. So I am not going crazy about it, one day when not even looking for it, I may just find it.
Rina

Thank you for sharing your experience — it helps (me, at least), as a beginner, to know what others have done, what have been their trials and errors and successes!

I guess my problem is that I still don't entirely understand gritty mix: so it helps from overwatering plants because water is not retained as much as with soil; but some water is retained in the turface, perlite and/or LECA... without risk of rotting the roots, like wet soil would because... gritty mix — because of the size and nature of the "ingredients" used — still retains less water, and less perched water... (right?)

To be honest, I'm a little scared of substituting an "ingredient" with another that would absorb too much water; or (worse?) with another that would adsorb too much water — that would definitely "drown" the plants... right? And what if all the ingredients I use don't retain much water at all? How bad would that be...?

I admire your boldness at wanting to experiment with different "ingredients" (and not going crazy about what you can't find) when, on my side, all I really want, right now, is make that gritty mix everyone keeps talking about so I won't kill my plants again! Hopefully, in time, I'll get there too!

Little update as I finally got LECA from the garden center!
I crushed them with a mortar and pestle and mixed grit with it. Not every broken piece is the same size, but I think it should be okay...