Martin, From a strictly technical viewpoint, the aerobic reaction is an oxidation reduction. Oxidation because the sugar is combined with oxygen, reduction because the sugar is reduced to carbon dioxide and water. From this perspective, it is not accurate to refer to the process as "fermentation". Still, given that there are lots of webpages that refer to "aerobic fermentation", there is an argument of common use that can be made. We also know that alcohol is produced and that the only possible way for that to happen is if part of the process is anaerobic. We also know that the liquid is more acid after 5 days of fermenting than it was at the start. The only way for it to increase acidity is through anaerobic fermentation. Please note that I am neither attacking you nor defending Carolyn. My only purpose is to try to get to the truth of this question. I don't care whether the process is aerobic or anaerobic or some combination of the two. I have no axe to grind nor cud to chew. I do care that the process works and that it is fairly easy to do. Yeast does not "break down H2O" Breaking H2O into its components requires a huge energy input. It normally occurs only in chlorophyll containing plants that use the suns energy as a pump to cause that separation. You can do a search for photosynthesis and chlorophyll if you want to see the mechanisms that make this possible. Since yeast does not normally contain chlorophyll, and since yeast is extracting energy, it does not separate water into its components. Re flipflopping, I make it a point to change my opinion promptly and completely when evidence is presented to indicate that I am on the wrong path. I have not flipflopped at all since doing some real research about the process of fermenting tomato seed. Clear evidence including a few references has been presented that many statements you have made are incorrect. Have you changed your position as a result? If not, why? The oxygen barrier in an open fermenter used in producing beer is a layer of carbon dioxide that accumulates above the fermenting vat. A lid is placed over the open fermenter which tends to trap the CO2 that is produced by the yeast. So long as that CO2 layer is minimally disturbed, a very effective oxygen barrier is produced which causes the beer fermentation to be anaerobic. All of the information I have at this point indicates that tomato seed fermenting is composed of an early aerobic process followed by an anaerobic stage. Most important to me is that BOTH stages are required to achieve the desired end result. It doesn't stop there though. There appears to be a bacterial stage after the yeast has run out of sugars to digest. The bacterial stage is the point at which the acidity increases and is the point at which pathogens are probably eliminated from the seed. Fusion

Helen, I'd just separate the seeds and keep them. The fact that they stuck together doesn't mean they aren't viable. I've planted a clump of tomato seeds before where 2 or 3 seeds were stuck together, and they all germinated and then I pricked them apart, using a toothpick to separate their roots while they were very small, and potted them up separately and they grew just fine. If you feel like your seeds might not be viable, you could try germinating 10 of them and then calculate your germination rate based on how many of those 10 germinate. Then, based on your germination rate, you could decide if you should save some more seed or if you are happy with the seed you already have. I have grown several of the tomato varieties from The Dwarf Project, including Rosella Purple, and none of them have produced well for me nor have they had flavor that impressed me. Keep in mind that we have had nothing but drought years since I started trying to grow these varieties so it might not be a fair trial, but that's the weather I have here and it isn't likely to change. Of the varieties I've grown from The Dwarf Project, Rosella Purple produced better than the others, but it didn't produce well enough in 2 or 3 consecutive years to make it worth growing again. I grew it both in large containers (molasses feed tubs, which are about the size of whiskey half-barrels) and in raised beds filled with well-amended loamy clay. Rosella Purple set fruit well in the heat in the ground, and didn't do much of anything in the container, but the flavor was only average at best. For someone looking for a purple tomato that sets very well in very high heat, I think Rosella Purple would fit the bill, but I am very picky about tomato flavor and it just doesn't taste as good as I'd hoped it would. I've grown Indigo Rose a couple of years and it is just your typical novelty tomato that you might grow as a conversation piece. The flavor is only so-so. I do like having one of them in a large pot by the driveway (beside the red barn so its' color really stands out) where everyone can see it and ask myewhat sort of freaky blue tomato I'm growing. Eating them though? Not enjoyable. They produce loads and loads of fruit, which is a plus, but having loads of bland fruit that is not especially tasty is just silly. What's the point in growing them then? I think I used up the last of my Indigo Rose seed this year and won't plant it again. With tomatoes, cooking them, particularly when combined with olive oil, is supposed to release some of the healthful compounds and make them more available to your body and more easily absorbed by your body, so I think that the blue tomatoes could be combined in anything you cook---like tomato sauce or salsa---but I haven't done it. I just feed the blue ones to my chickens. I have learned to be careful about blending too many differently colored tomatoes together in sauce or salsa because you can end up with some odd colors....kinda like mixing together too many paint colors and ending up with a muddy color. Jay, Ditto on the heat here. We have had highs of 107-110 as recently as this past weekend. Yesterday our forecast high was 95 but our weather ignored the forecast and hit 100 degrees anyway. Because the drought continues and the heat is just ridiculous, the plants are really suffering. One fall tomato plant just gave up and died, and it was in a container and I could move it into shade on the worst days, but I just think too many hot temperatures since it was planted in late June or early July weakened it and it couldn't take the heat any more. Another couple of the fall plants look pretty bad and I'm not expecting much from them. I still have several varieties of tomatoes from the spring planting that look reasonably good and have a chance of producing in the fall if I keep watering, but I'm kinda at the point where continuing to water probably isn't smart. I think the return, in terms of a harvest, wouldn't be enough to make it financially smart to keep pouring water onto the veggie garden. Momotaro is still producing in the front garden and it will get water because it is right beside the asparagus. Several SunGold plants likely will continue to get some water because they are growing near the fig tree in the back garden. All the others, except for the fall tomato plants in containers, likely are done. I'll keep watering those fall tomatoes, but with highs remaining around 100 degrees all week and no rain in the forecast, I don't know that they're even going to get a chance to set fruit before the first frost arrives. Our weather is cooler this week than it was last week, but only marginally so. Only three of the fall tomato plants have set fruit. From those three plants, I have harvested three ripe tomatoes and have another one at breaker stage. That's not much of a return so far given that I have had them in containers and have watered them regularly (at least every other day, and often every day) since I planted them the last week of June or the first week in July. Our high temperatures have consistently gone 5-7 degrees above the NWS point forecast for our exact location all summer long, and they've consistently been hotter than the highs at our county's mesonet station. It has driven me nuts. I kept thinking that all our thermometers surely were broken, but then bought two brand new thermometers (the old-fashioned mercury type) and put them right beside the digital thermometers (5' above ground in full shade) and they are recording the same temperatures. I guess the fact that a lot of the rain has kept missing us while hitting the area where our mesonet station is part of the reason we're going hotter than expected, and hotter than what is recorded at the mesonet station. If I had known we'd stay so insanely hot and dry in August, I likely wouldn't have bothered planting fall tomatoes. We had a great spring crop, harvesting from the last week of April through the beginning of August, though it mostly has been only SunGolds the last couple of weeks. I'm about done with the garden for this year. I can't control the weather, and the plants can't set fruit in this heat. Being able to water enough to keep the plants alive is one thing but if they aren't setting fruit, it seems like a (pun intended) fruitless endeavor. Dawn

The issue is are they hybrids or heirlooms/open pollinated varieties. If they are hybrids then the seeds you save won't breed true. Hybrid seeds in the packet are the result of manual cross-pollination of at least 2 parent varieties. The seeds saved from those hybrid plants once grown, will revert to the parent stock or some strange combination of them. If your seeds planted and grown are heirlooms or open-pollinated plants, not hybrids, then yes you can save the seeds and re-grow them. Depending on what the plant is - self-fertile like tomatoes or insect pollinated like most flowers, they may or may not grow true. In some cases, like hollyhocks you will still get lots cross-pollination by insects so your saved seeds may change color etc. It all depends on how much you care whether or not the seeds you saved breed true or not. Many don't care, many do. Some research on cross-pollination will explain this in more detail. ;) Dave

I guess I'm getting my terminology mixed up, I thought seed starter mix was the same as soil-less mix. The latter is what I intend to use. There are soil-less seed starting mixes and soil-less growing mixes. The seed starting mixes are normally a much finer texture, mostly just peat and vermiculite to retain water, and have no or very few added nutrients since the young seedlings don't need or tolerate them well sometimes. They are used in very small amounts just for germination and nothing else. Soil-less growing/potting mixes have a more coarse texture for better drainage, include pine bark, perlite, lime, and added nutrients along with the peat. Many use them for both seed starting and for growing on as well as for container gardening. I didn't think of that. I did buy transplants last year so I was thinking I would save money there this year You can save money buy growing your own - after the initial outlay for decent equipment - lights and a heating pad. But the primary reason for growing your own is different variety access and the fun, not saving money. For example (over-simplified but I think you'll get the idea) since I was price shopping today - would you spend more than $11 on transplants? Since you already have your seeds, 1 2 cf bag of MG Potting Mix - enough to grow 150 transplants easily for the garden costs $11. Would you spend more than $21? The bag of MG and 1 shop light at Walmart plus 2 fluor. bulbs for it costs $21.50 and you'd have the light to use next year. Got any plastic butter tubs, yogurt cups, old containers, a bag of plastic drink cups from the Dollar Store you can make holes in the bottom of? Then you are set except for your hardening off issues. That has to be done right or it all goes down the tubes in just a few hours. Dave PS: edited to add I am not advocating Walmart or MG or any other product, just using it at an example since I happened to note the prices today. This post was edited by digdirt on Fri, Mar 21, 14 at 15:38