HMF actually encourages documenting rose parts. I've set up a plan to try and do more of this with my roses this season. So if anyone has rose part photos so post there please do so!

Melissa -- I probably don't have any that you need -- but post the names, please, just in case. And if I should turn out to have any of them, I will be happy to post "parts." I really do like to do that, particularly with "found" roses.

Dear ladies,

Thank you all for your willingness to help. Actually I was thinking of a global project, not just my own plants: HMF needs more photos that can help to identify roses, not limited to pretty flowers. Seil is thinking along the same lines I am. I will post a list of names, though many are once-blooming old roses unlikely to be found in the warmer California gardens. Most of the roses come from Petrovic in Serbia; replacements from suckers from established roses in the garden (I want to have at least two of every variety, to insure against loss), most of them originally from Schultheis in Germany or our own La Campanella.

'Orpheline de Juillet', 'Rote Krimrose', R. hemosphaerica, 'Zoe', 'Duc de Guiche', 'Conditorum', 'Oeillet Flamand', 'Mlle. Cecile Brunner', 'Sidonie', R. foetida (var.), 'Gloire de Ducher', 'Souv. de McKinley', 'Henry Nevard', 'Marguerite de Roman', 'Eugene Furst', 'John Hopper' 'White Cecile Brunner', 'Baronne Prevost', 'Bright as a Button', 'Anna de Diesbach', 'Lewison Gower', 'Gloire Lyonnaise', 'Empereur du Maroc', 'Souv, de Mme. Corval', 'Marbree', 'Crimson Globe', 'Rose de Meaux Blanc', 'Yolande de Aragon', 'Rene d'Anjou', Duchesse d'Abrantes', 'Chewdelight', 'Blanche de Belgique', 'Anais Segalas', 'Amelia', 'Gloire des Mousseux' ex Schultheis, 'Gabrielle Noyelle', 'Kawkaskaje', 'Camaieux', 'Suaveolens', 'Nestor' (?), 'Paul Ricault', 'Belle de Crecy', 'Celestial', 'Sissinghurst Castle', 'A Longs Peduncules', 'Jeanne de Montfort', 'Sappho', 'Sophie de Marsillie', 'Oeillait Parfait', 'Paeonienrose', Mme. Moreau', 'Incomparable', 'D'Aguesseau', 'Nuits de Young', 'Elisa Rovella', 'Gil Blas', 'Pompon Blanc Parfait', 'Onex', 'Petite Orleannaise', 'Assemblage des Beautes', 'Belle des Jardins', 'Comte de Chambord', 'Hyppolyte', 'Duchesse de Berry'.

In many cases it's perfectly clear what variety a rose is: I can't imagine confusing 'Celestial' or the R. foetida varieties with anything else, but then there are all those pink or purplish Gallicas. So many roses are confused in commerce. I've read that 'Belle sans Flatterie', 'Louis van Tyll', and 'Aimable Amie' are possibly the same variety (read the comments section on HMF for BSF): all three are growing in my garden. I need to take a close look at them. I can't distinguish my 'Tuscany', 'Tuscany Superb', and 'Haddington': I've compared them, and need to compare them again. Petrovic has the first two, and their photos show two distinct varieties, corresponding to what Graham Thomas writes about them. When years ago I ordered 'Comte de Chambord', 'Mme. Boll', and 'Mme. Knorr' from Schultheis, I received three roses that to my eyes look like the same variety: I believe that current thinking is that this rose, most commonly sold as 'Comte de Chambord', was actually originally 'Mme. Boll' (Vintage Gardens Book of Roses). I need to check that. And so on. And of course there are those cases where the wrong rose arrives from the nursery, a pure accident or the nursery itself is mistaken: like when I ordered 'Indigo' and got 'Rose de Rescht' instead: if I hadn't already had RdR in the garden, I might not have caught the mistake for a long time. All this offends my sense of order, and I'd rather not buy the same rose under different names. Though if I can help untangle some of the confusion, it's worth it.

Melissa

I think this is an excellent idea. I was just on HMF last night trying to decide if I have a Madame Plantier and a Madame Hardy or two Madame Hardy. MP I won in a rose raffle and the person who rooted it is sure it's MP, but the blooms look more like MH. Last year I received a MH from another rosarian, so I am trying to figure out where I want to put both. I will have to wait and see when they both bloom this spring to be sure. But if the rose isn't blooming, there should be a way to tell.

I also have a lot of 'unknown' roses that we dug up from another rosarians yard. We know what roses he had, just not what we have (the tags were missing on most), MH at least was tagged. But it's going to be fun figuring out who is who. I already think one is a Rugrosa from the canes and leaves, but which one, I don't know. He had a few.

Melissa, concerning Gallicas:
if you haven't got it already I would recommend the following book:
Rosa Gallica by Suzanne Verrier

Then a nice trip to Roserai de la cours de commers in June, armed with a camera :-)

They have 300 varieties of Gallicas.

As for the photos: One needs to have a check list and systematically take pictures. I'm sure Jeri can produce a list....

Um, I think there are at least 2 distinct roses going by the name of Madame Louis Leveque (mine is a pink moss, very bristly, but scantily flowered)

I rarely manage a mass planting so can always recall what roses are where...until this year when I ordered a whole slew of cheap Dutch roses (Lottum Tuin) and planted them willy-nilly, all over the woods, working on the principle that as long as they thrive, I don't care what they are called. Of course, I haven't the faintest idea what is actually growing (I cannot recall the varieties I bought) so I will be forever clueless...but, this is a fairly normal state of affairs for me...
Also, as I am not selling roses, labelling is really just a formality. There are numerous perennials which will be forever nameless (especially amongst the hardy geraniums)...but I can see that this state of things could be deeply irritating for many people.

"I can see that this state of things could be deeply irritating for many people."

It's like ... I personally don't particularly care if most Found Roses ever get identified. I think "Grandmother's Hat" is just as good by any name you care to call it. (Though it's nice if we can agree on one study name.)

But I tent to make collages, like this one, of details of an unidentified rose.

And add a bloom or plant photo to round it out.

It's not just that, in some things at least, I have an orderly mind. But how can I acquire new roses if I don't know what I've already got? And while I generally manage to keep track of what I've bought or been given (there are exceptions), I have limited control over how accurately named the roses I buy or otherwise get hold of are. For me this is the chief issue.

Well, and so others clearly want to know -- often, roses in an "inherited" garden. So of course such photos can be helpful.

I have added such photos to HelpMeFind -- of details of 'Dr. Huey.' The only problem with it is, over time, those photos have gotten pushed way back -- so people have to keep clicking "older" until they get to them.

I think that, nowadays, I would combine images (as above) so folks wouldn't have to look so hard.

BTW -- the Richardson family rose (shown above) has not been identified -- but it's a whale of a nice rose, and not in commerce. And the mother plant will eventually die there. AFAIK, there's my plant, one Kim Rupert has, and one in the San Jose Heritage Rose Garden. And one in Virginia, and that's all there are.

Melissa, the reality is, that unless some forward thinking 19th century rosarian buried a neatly labelled cache of cuttings somewhere they could be preserved for posterity, like the South Pole, there is no way of really knowing for sure what most of these roses are. If you read somebody like Buist, who was complaining quite bitterly about being sent the same roses from France multiple times under different names, it isn't even a new problem to sort out. The best we can currently do is be fairly sure that rose A is the same as rose B, and not the same as rose C. Given the current difficulties with importing roses, even that isn't trivial.

Shoot! The problem continues. Even today, we have seen companies re-introduce the same rose with a different name.

I side with E.A. Bowles over Gertrude Jekyll on this question. I am very interested in the history and botany of individual plants, and I am much less interested in the the overall effect a group of plants makes in a garden. That said, I looked at my HMF photos--and they are all just flowers. So, I'll do better in the future.

Oh, true_blue, by the way, I do have the Verrier book, but don't find it as useful as I'd like. Wouldn't it be wonderful if HMF could establish a separate set of documentary photos, well vetted and strictly for identification purposes? Jeri has a point that helpful photos get pushed to the back in time.

Also verbal descriptions. I've been writing notes on my Petrovic roses, and given that they're only just leafing out, it's surprising how much I can find to say, about canes, thorns, and emerging foliage....buds, flowers, and hips don't enter into it at all. This is a good way to help me to look carefully at a plant.

P.S. I said I needed to know the names of roses so that I didn't acquire duplicates. But that's not the only reason. How can we talk about roses if they're not correctly named, or at least have a name we can agree upon? I don't care much whether the name is the original one or not, as long as I know that when Suzy and I talk about 'Mme. Louis Leveque' we know we're talking about the same rose.

I would also love to see more HMF photos of leaves, buds , prickles, plant habit, etc.

Jeri, have you considered 'Antoine Rivoire' as the Richardson plot rose? I know it's usually pictured as being white with pink in the center, but I've seen photos where there isn't as much of a two-tone effect. I wonder how much climate and maturity play into that?

http://normalis.exblog.jp/20911786

I've also wondered if any of your "wonderful whites" might be 'Mme Agathe Nabonnand'? I know you've said that the Nabonnand Teas seem to do very well for you over yonder... I hadn't heard of it until the other day when I happened to be looking at an old (1901) catalog for a West Coast Nursey.

The only way you are going to know if your Mme. Louis Leveque and Suzy's are the same or different is if someone fairly knowledgable can grow them side by side and compare them. There are too many roses that shift characters based on where they are growing.

Actually the most precise way is to have them genetically tested :-)

Melissa, there are some good French references, I believe François Joyaux's book is one.

I forgot to post his webpage, you can write to them if you would like to visit them in June.

It would be great to have a visual identification page on HMF. Why don't you write to them and suggest it to them? If you want we can co-sign it.

I wouldn't kick Antoine Rivoire out of bed as a possibility -- the foliage seems to have the right shape and dark green color -- but I'd love to see the plant habit. Something to think on.

I sure wish there were more images of Mme Agathe Nabonnand. Because of the color description, I'd suspect IT might be a candidate for "George Washington Richardson." Richardson is a "pinky" white. ("Jesse Hildreth" is a "yellow-ish" white.)

What West Coast nursery was it that included the Nabonnand rose? I'm curious, because the site where the Richardson rose was found is basically in the California Delta area.

Until recently, I was convinced that I would always know the names of my plants (and provenance etc.etc.) Surely, it would be like forgetting the names of my children? And in fact, this belief has largely been proved correct UNLESS more than a couple of dozen plants are bought at any one time. As I usually buy plants in tiny multiples (usually singles, in fact), I have no problem recalling the details...but this year, adding over 30 in one tranche has utterly befuddled my brain - I can only hope that I exercised some vague judgement when I planted them as I haven't the faintest idea what to expect at the moment.

I do feel Melissa's pain.

I bought "Manchester Guardian Angel."

Then, I bought "Georgetown Lemon-White Tea." (See below)

Lovely roses, though huge, and incredibly armed with handsome red prickles. And they are the same. The rose has other Study Names, as well . . . so I am very glad that HMF has been good enough to include study names . . .

Madgallica, I'm more optimistic than you, perhaps out of ignorance. Roses can certainly vary drastically in dimensions and flower color, to cite two examples, according to conditions, but how much can culture affect a Damask rose's heavy canes, bending at the nodes, and mixed strong prickles; or the upright thicket of slender bristly canes that is the classic Gallica habit? I've been spending a good deal of time recently looking at these kinds of details.

True_blue, you do make interesting suggestions. I don't know that my budget extends to a trip to France--I wish!--and also I'm busy this June. However the dictionary is now on record as my desired birthday present. Do you know French? About the letter to HMF, I'll definitely think about it. I'm dilatory about that kind of thing, but often get around to them in end. Several people writing would be even better: I can't think how to co-sign an e-mail.

Suzy, I used to think that too, many years and many large rose orders ago. With over three hundred varieties in the garden and several hundred plants, I find I need to keep written records if I don't want to die of frustration.

At least your duplicate is a good rose, Jeri!

Jeri, I was actually looking at the Biodiversity Heritage Library. I first saw 'MAN' advertised in the Conard & Jones catalog for Spring, 1901, then later that day saw that she was listed in another catalog (1900) for a San Franciso nursery (F Ludemann, Pacific Nursery) that had a second location in Milbrae.

The latter catalog had no description, but the C&J catalog had this to say about Mme Agathe: Extra-large buds, exquisitely beautiful; creamy yellow, tinged with rosy flesh. Blooms continuously all season. 10 cts. each; larger size 15 cts. Two-year size 30 cts., express.

Interestingly, there's a rose called 'Washington' listed on the same page: Semi-climbing habit, blooms constantly, immense clusters pure snow-white; hardy, vigorous grower, always gives satisfaction. (Same price as 'MAN'). The closest possibility I can find at HMF is 'Mary Washington'?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/biodivlibrary/16243190043/in/photostream/

http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/item/173991#page/3/mode/1up

The Flickr page is a wonderful jumbled mess, but the BHL's actual web site is a bit more organized/searchable.

Hi Melissa, if by know French you mean if I speak it, yes, guilty as charged. I've read quite a bit about François Joyaux and his rose collection/ obsession.

There is a video somewhere (in French), not very well done, but I can post it, if you're interested. I believe his favorite rose is La Belle Sultane.

There is also the Eleonora Garlant, the rose Lady from Artegna, which you are probably aware of.

Here is the contact page from HMF.

Melissa have you been to the fineschi gardens?

true_blue, yes I have, though it was twelve years ago; at that time it was a magical place, and wonderful for getting acquainted with many varieties of roses. I don't know how it's doing these days since the death of Professor Fineschi some years ago. Have you been there? Currently my main rose viewing site is my own garden, though I must admit buying a rose to be able to look at it is extravagant (but so are hotel rooms).

I watched the video of Eleonora Garlant, whom I had not heard of, and was quite interested in the site that posted it, however it appears that the last activity of the responsible group is from 2005.

Having a knowledge of more than one language does enrich one's life. I only read French, but am always interested in hearing it and trying to develop some listening comprehension. Do you read a good deal in French?

You have gotten me curious about your garden.

Melissa, I am not remotely surprised at your facility for describing particular roses...and recording them using words rather than images has always been the botanist's art with a truly fabulous language to use - all those glabrous, hispid, tormentose, details, in the most specific and precise (if long-winded) description.

Anyway, I am too impatient (and myopic) to have practiced observational skills until I went on a wonderful apple identification course. Prior to that apples were either red or green, until I actually truly looked at the shape of the crown, the outline, the skin texture, the many variations in colouration....long before we got to the scents and tastes. Obvious, (unless you have a scattered magpie mind) but quite a revelation to me...and all described in concise and elegant language.

I fear you might lose your talent with words, Melissa, if you took the easy photo route...which has dubious clarity anyway, lovely to look at but as a source of identification, less useful.

Hurray: a fellow believer! I do have great faith in the descriptive power of words. Your apple course sounds great, Suzy, and I think we all could use a class in observation.

I'm still taken aback at how little I notice. I've had a shrub honeysuckle, L. nitida I believe, in the garden for a decade now, and yesterday was the first time I ever saw that it flowered.

Melissa never been to Italy in person but many times through books & movies....
I wasn't aware of the professor's death, sad, I came upon his garden's name whilst browsing François Joyaux's collection of 200 gallicas.

I got to now Eleonora Garlant through this book, when I came upon this thread last year. Truly interesting lady. Though more interesting is the rose
Andrea Di Robilant was looking for its identity.

I communicate frequently & fluently in French living in Montreal :-)

Thank you for your interest in my small garden. However being in part shade and zone 4, rose growing is a challenge, mostly experimental with roses subjected to less than the optimal growing conditions.

However, I don't agree with Campanula's sole preference for words. Words while highly evocative in literature, are often misleading in rose identification. If you've had patience enough to go through the Francis Dubreuil thread many of the problems with this rose happens because of over use of adjectives, pink, cerise, dark red, amaranth.....

That doesn't mean that photos aren't misleading at all but its easier to identify a pink rose visually than verbally.

The ideal online ID would be a combination of both :-)